Observations after week !
 

What did people notice about the game after the first week of regionals is over?

Our team noticed that while the super cell is a game changer it does not just happen. you need a plan, teams where down and a super cell could have saved the match. but with like 25 seconds left teams where like (bleep) no empty cells, o well just have to hope for the best while there teams payload specialist still had all four. My suggestion to get around this by having teams get those empty cells out into play EARLY. You do not have to put it into a bot just stick it on the ground and hope someone gets it. The empty cells look similar enough to moon rocks that if their is a big pile in front of the outpost the payload specialist could put it into play without any one on the opposing team noticing. Then your alliance would just pick it up, put it in a air lock, and tada super cell for your scoring pleasure. (for all payload specialist please do not throw the empty cells that is a penalty, you have to shove them through the hole!!!!!!!!!)

Another thing we noticed unlike last year a broken or a no show bot is a killer. It is easily 30 free points to the opposing alliance. I saw a lot of teams get burned by this. yes i understand missing a match because your robot will not drive and you need the time to fix it. I understand a robot just not working on the field do to something going wrong. but please tell your alliance before hand. however, if your robot can drive but your ball handling systems are not working and you don't show, that is just not right. This years game from what i saw is not as brutal on your bot as last year. there is not as many (extreme) high speed collisions and robots tend to be more rugged because you can't have any parts sticking out that could be easily broken due to a collision. yes you lose repair time but this year you never know if your team will win (think Midwest regional number 8 seed beating number 1 seed 71,1114, and 1000). This is where i will also apologize to one of our alliances for being a broke bot and pretty much costing the alliance the match. our code didn't deploy right, so we would not run. SRRY:(

Re: Observations after week !
 

Empty Cells must be delivered early, as a strategic move.

No robot is dominant enough to win by itself - good strategy can stop any 1 robot...if you're against 2 good once it's a different story.

Also, moon rocks tend to roll to the sides of the field, where they are harder to be picked by robots. A good strategy is just driving the whole way with one of your sides touching the side border, and this way you can easily gather 90% of those balls, in 10 seconds.

Re: Observations after week !
 

At the KC Regional, we didn't have to put empty cells and moon rocks through the hole. The refs didn't give penalties for throwing them.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Lunacy is Epic.

It is by far the most challenging game I've ever driven in or watched. (I've driven in Aim High, Rack 'N Roll and Overdrive). We've found a lot of things to be true and many others to be false. Perhaps many of you should rethink your strategies.

On the Hardware end:

1) In NJ we (all the teams) were having major static issues. It was recommended Saturday morning that we attach a length of Chain to our Robot by the People on the field to reduce static. A piece of wire or other metal will work just fine also.

2) Make Sure your firmware is up to date. You don't want to be the team that can't connect to the field.

3) Be nice to your Ethernet Ports! If possible have one Port used primary for tethering and have one for on field usage. We had two instances where we were temporarily dropped from the field because our Ethernet Port is shoty.

4) Don't Bury you radio! Some teams had their radios buried, not only is this bad for Comms but it's also bad for debugging.

5) Be patient with the field. It's new, give the people running it a break. If you have a serious issue then bring it to the Head Ref or FTA, they will be more than happy to help or find some one to help.

Now, Onto the Game end of things.

1) Keep Moving. A dead robot is an easy robot to score on. If you know your robot isn't going to move in a match DO NOT PUT IT IN THE CENTER! That is by far the easiest spot for HP's to score from, trust me - We filled a trailer from there... In Auto.

2) Be careful with Traction Control. Don't become so reliant on it that you're limited to 4-5 FPS. There are robots that can do in excess of 9FPS, and it's epic.

3) Learn how to pin on the fly. Not every type of Pin requires a wall. Sometimes your robot can act as the "wall" and other times your opponent will act as the "wall".

4) Control a trailer and you control the bot. In most cases if you can push a trailer in a direction you can knock a robot off course. It takes some practice but be creative, you can do it.

5) A good HP is your best friend. Our HP was great, and he won us a lot of matches.

6) They are enforcing G14. In qauls they'll only punish the offending team. So if when we tripled the score our HP lost both of his Super Cells for the next match.

7) A good Auto will win you matches. You don't have score, just move. A good place to start is by driving 10 feet out and spinning. Even the Best HP's can only get 1 in every 4-5 balls in.

8) Picking up off the floor is KEY. If you're HP loaded only you'll need to be paying close attention to other robots, you're an easy target for them.

9) Super Cells win matches. Don't Miss them.

On a personal note, I found this first week to be one of the most fun experiences in my time in FIRST. Lunacy is fast paced and a fun game but it takes some skill and a lot of luck to win. A good robot will not win you a Regional. Teamwork, Good Driving, and Good Decisions win Regionals this year.

-TheFro Out.

I'll have more, after I get some sleep.

Re: Observations after week !
 

wow that's really weird...did they tell you they changed the rules??

Re: Observations after week !
 

for moon rocks no... but for the empty cells they did(we got one first time out)

Re: Observations after week !
 

Which rule?

Re: Observations after week !
 

the one thing that really stuck out to me was that human players are just throwing their balls away. i understand taking a shoot if you have a good look but at the start of the match even when the bots move away they throw all their balls and 30 seconds in they are left with nothing which means their corner is free for easy travel for the opposing alliance.

this game actually is turning out really nicely. this is my 4th year and it is my favorite game. at first i thought this game would be terrible but i realize now that it has more strategy than any game that i can think of and when i was watching matches today at Trenton i saw how exciting they are to watch.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Refs at KC weren't enforcing <G21> properly. Apparently, they weren't issuing penalties for throwing ECs.

Re: Observations after week !
 

My $0.02 on this game is that it can be really exciting, at times.

Matches where teams didnt show up, which i was extremely surprised was rather common at Midwest, make the match a cakewalk for the opposing alliance. If all you are is the kitbot frame and electronics thats fine. I can respect a team that at least goes out there and makes an effort; if you break down half way through the match, o well.

To me, the supercells were important but not reliable. I only watched Midwest, and wasn't able to catch every qual match, but it seemed that, yes, while supercells won matches, they're not something that can be counted on. From what I saw the only reasonable way to score a SC is to throw it. Even then you have to hope there is an opponent near that human player, and they still have to make it. It is a good strategy to have the ability to use the SC, but if it takes you a while to acquire/dispense the EC then I advise you not to take on the EC transporter job.

It was really cool to watch teams chase after a trailer and keep scoring on them without having to pin, which would make yourself a target. I applaud you on your driving.

All in all i think this will be a great game, wish they had it last year so I would have been able to drive :( Can't wait to watch it in person at Florida.

Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

I started this by just wanting to see how often G14 was applied in the eight regional events. In the qualification games, G14 came into effect only about 11% of the time. [NOTE: The only scores I found were AFTER Penalties were Assessed, I do not have the scores without penalties, so the numbers do not take into consideration the G14 prior to penalties, basically numbers might be off]

If my spreadsheet is correct here are the numbers:

With about 86% of the scores reported:

Qualification Games
Number of Games: 577
Scores Reported: 495
Red wins: 255
Blue wins: 240
High Score: 151
Average Score: 50.55
Largest Point Differential: 126
G14 Penalties:
No Penalty 437 (88%)
2x Penalty 21 (4%)
3x Penalty 37 (7%)

Quarter Finals
Number of Games: 73
Scores Reported: 73
Red wins: 45
Blue wins: 28
High Score: 126
Average Score: 60.10
Largest Point Differential: 68
G14 Penalties:
No Penalty 68 (93%)
2x Penalty 4 (5%)
3x Penalty 1 (1%)

Semi Finals
Number of Games: 40
Scores Reported: 40
Red wins: 25
Blue wins: 15
High Score: 115
Average Score: 63.7
Largest Point Differential: 62
G14 Penalties:
No Penalty 39 (97.5%)
2x Penalty 1 (2.5%)
3x Penalty 0 (0%)

Finals
Number of Games: 17
Scores Reported: 17
Red wins: 14
Blue wins: 3
High Score: 121
Average Score: 63.9
Largest Point Differential: 69
G14 Penalties:
No Penalty 17 (100%)
2x Penalty 0 (0%)
3x Penalty 0 (0%)

I would be really interested if someone could parse the Twitter information and report on all the great data contained in those posts.

Re: Observations after week !
 

I attended the OKC regional and here are a few things I learned.

Make sure, you let the refs know if you are having any kind of communication problem with your robot. We lost signal with our robot in 3 separate matches.
This possibly lost us our chance of being in the top 8 teams at the end of the qualification matches.

Make sure your Payload specialist knows ALL of the rules that apply to them.
So many teams (including a team in the finals) lost matches because of stupid mistakes by the PS's.

Make sure your trailer hitch pin is set securely! During our first quarter final match, our robot was hit so hard in auto mode that our hitch pin flew out and our trailer came undone. The refs disabled and we lost the match because there was a free trailer. We had the pin in properly and everything, the head ref checked it before the match. So just because it looks and feels like its properly set... doesn't mean that it is... keep that in mind.

When picking alliance partners after qualifying matches are over, make sure you have a list of teams you want to pick, even if your in 15th place, you may end up in the top 8. A lot of the top 8 teams picked from the other top 8.

At our regional, supercells and strong defense were the way to go.
Several teams did really well because all they did was get a few emptycells moved and then used team work to corral an opponent into their corner.

Having the camera system on your robot will help you do well, but isn't essential to winning. The number 1 ranked robot had a really good camera targeting system on it. The number 2 robot didn't even have the camera on it.

As was said before, having a good robot and a good human player is really important, but means nothing if you don't have a good strategy with your alliance partners. 3 basic robots with a good strategy can easily take down a great robot and its alliance if they don't have a strategy.

I will keep adding as I think of things.

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

I don't know why that stat stands out to me, but it shows how the matches are even, or at least aren't soley decided by one dominant robot. The higher seeded alliance was only winning half the time in the semi-finals.

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

Yes, your numbers will be way off. In 78 qual matches at Traverse City (did you include us in your counts?), we had 6 penalty-adjusted matches that would look like <G14> applied, but it did not. And there was one match that would look like a 3x but was a 2x pre-penalty. We had 9 >2x and 2 >3x games in quals; 2 >2x and 2 >3x in QF's. None in SF's or F's.

Re: Observations after week !
 

We were at KC (had some mechnanical trouble and no parts to really fix it, just kept patching) I definately saw teams getting penalties for outpost seated player throwing the empty cells over the wall.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Some of my personal observations after having our team play Lunacy in Week 1 at DC.

SIMILARITIES
The game is similar to many others in previous FIRST years in the following ways - qualification matches could be boring or exciting, depending on the teams playing; excitement picks up considerably during the elims.

DIFFERENCES
The game is different in that there is so much going on at once and the game pieces are so numerous, that it is extremely difficult to get a good idea what is going on over the whole of the field. I was watching our bot during a match when someone asked me what our partners were doing. I had to answer that I had absolutely no idea.

OTHER OBSERVATIONS

* Human players (Payload Specialists) might be as evenly important as the robot in this game as in any FIRST game. This definitely evens out the playing field.

* Moving at all times during the game, especially in autonomous, can save or kill your chances. Also, there are many tasks a robot can perform in autonomous that puts their alliance in a good position for the rest of the match.

* No-show team = empty trailer with rover wheel = death

* Get empty cells early and plan a way to increase the probability of converting them into points (many PS just fling them at the end - akin to a Hail Mary).

* Don't get pinned!!!

* Get ready to dance. Robots will be jockeying for position to score on each other. It is fun to watch a pair of bots circling like two physical competitors positioning themselves to strike (fencing and sumo wrestling comes to mind).

* Speed is always important. However, speed with maneuverability is key.

* Picking moon rocks off the crater floor is critical. There are many lying there just waiting to be harvested.

* It is very difficult to articulate a strategic plan with your alliance and then execute it real time. The field is constantly changing. Having a plan is important, but being able to change it on the fly and depend on communicating any changes to alliance partners during a match is extremely hard to do.

* Robots don't create penalties. People create penalties. This season, Payload Specialist penalties are in abundance. Train your PS (and those on your alliance) well.

* Many matches end in very close scores. A well-shot super cell or a few extra moon rocks in a trailer can win a match for you.

* Don't waste your moon rocks. Many Payload Specialists are throwing all their rocks early, sometimes at bots halfway across the field. Depending on the skill of your PS, the time left in the match, and where the opponent trailers are located, it may make sense to toss a rock or to hold it. Being smart is the key.

* Don't go by the real-time scoring to determine if you won or lost a match. Since matches are so close, a few points either way will determine a match. Real-time scoring is done by volunteers keying in points as they see them. It's hard to differentiate between 5-8 moon rocks in a trailer as they whiz by.

* Know who your alliance is up against in your next match. While G14 penalties did not really affect our team at the Washington DC regional, I can see them integrating more into team strategies. Also, be very careful in your last qualifying match. You don't want to take a double G14 into the eliminations with you.

* Videotaping these events (either for webcast or for screen projection at the event) should be done full-field with select close-ups. You just can't tell where the action will be and cameras have a tendency to miss alot of it.

That's all for now.

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

I'm not sure if somebody got to this first, but the first match in the Buckeye Regional Finals had a 2x G14. Also, in response to
In the above mentioned case, a volunteer walked around the field removing a cell from each of the alliance's fueling stations/outpost.

Re: Observations after week !
 

From what I noticed, a lot of teams are not communicating effectively to their alliance partners.

Before the match, talk to your alliance partners. Make sure their payload specialist knows what your robot looks like, how it loads moon rocks, maybe you're going to want them to feed you empty cells, maybe you want them to throw a super cell into your robot so you can effectively deliver it across the field, maybe you want them to hold their moon rocks during autonomous so they can human load your robot.

Many times at NJ, did I see a robot at the outpost waiting for an empty cell (and the drivers yelling, waving, and banging on the players station glass), while the Payload Specialist just stared blankly at the rest of the field because they didn't even realize it was their alliance partner wanting to be fed.

A successful super cell exchange for the most part, will involve at least 2 of the teams on the alliance. The PS at the outpost, the robot delivering, and the PS at the fueling station. Communication and teamwork within the alliance is the key to this game IMO.

Re: Observations after week !
 

They seemed to be calling those penalties whenever i watched it. It is possbile though, that some of the empty cells were thrown without the refferees noticing. The empty cells look very, very similar to moonrocks.

Re: Observations after week !
 

I do agree with this statement, but I made this observation.

I looked at the standings of each of the regionals. Some of the standard teams were at the top with 0-1 losses. It seems the best teams are still figuring out how to be on the top.

Do others see that?

Re: Observations after week !
 

My observations from week 1 (at BAE):

A good human player is worth gold. Conversely a bad human player, especially one who doesn't know the rules, is detrimental to the entire alliance.

Dumper robots, especially fast dumpers, are deadly.

Pinning a robot does almost nothing unless your alliance can score on the pinned robot.

A dead, or no show, robot is almost guaranteed loss for that alliance.

The field control system still has a lot of bugs to work out. There were a ton of replayed matches at BAE.

Always keep moving, a stopped robot is nothing more than a target.

The regolith curls up on the edges. Our ball pickup is 3/4" above the surface and caught the regolith.

Supercells need to be planned.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Yes - but that is explained by the fact that strategy doesn't take much place during Qualifying matches. Those same teams you are talking about didn't do that well during elims in most, if not all cases.

I don't even think that there is any regional where the powerhouse you expecrted to win did so...maybe except BAE..

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

Here is a link to the twitter data in Excel format
http://www.robokong2493.com/frcMatchData.xls

The colums are:

id MatchID MatchNumber MatchName EventID RedTeam1 RedTeam2 RedTeam3 BlueTeam1 BlueTeam2 BlueTeam3 RedScore BlueScore Tweeted EventName year week location

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

I do not want to turn this into a twitter data thread... just wondering if you parsed the cell count... if we had that we could figure out the penalties.

From Update #15
"There are no post match bonus points this year, so accessed penalties can be derived from adding up the score from the Super Cell, Empty Cell and Moon Rock counts and then subtracting the Final Score which will give you the alliances penalties."

Re: Observations after week !
 

In my opinion, the teams who have thought about the impact and use of the trailer (very clever addition, GDC) and the flooring, and the PS, as well as the orbit balls, themselves, and everything else involved in spending time thinking about strategy and strategic plays are and will be the ones who rise to the top. Communication within the alliances will be an important factor as it has been in past games. Veteran teams, and some of the newer teams and rookies, who have spent time and continue to spend time in the strategy room and in working on communicating effectively, will increase their opportunities for doing well. They are 'figuring it out'.

I often wonder about the strategy and planning that goes into the NASA missions in space. Each one must have untold hours of time involved in achieving success and/or correcting problems.

Re: Observations after week !
 

from the webcasts that i saw... power dumpers indeed seemed to be much more effective than quick shooters. multiple, fast power dumps seemed to be more accurate, and thus more effective, than turreted, quick shooters.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Thoughts from KC:

1) Do not throw empty cells over the wall! Our PS did that and it's a 10 point penalty.

2) Be easy on the trigger - Our robot was a hybrid dumper-shooter that let all 7 balls go at once. Our driver pulled the trigger too early and we missed all 7 balls. Turns out we only lost by 4 points. Wait and be sure you have a clear target.

3) Autonomous - If someone on your team doesn't have an autonomous mode, you will lose, every time. Go around and make sure your alliance partners have something, even if it just runs straight ahead at full speed.

4) Check the hitch pin - If your trailer comes un-done during the match, you get an E-Stop and your robot just sits there, not helping anybody.

5) Don't bury the radio - This has already been stated, but you will have to be able to access your radio to install the WPA encryption. Make sure it is easy to access.

6) Check your cables - After you tether your robot in the pit, make sure you plug the ethernet cable back into the radio when you are done! There were more than a couple of teams at KC that forgot, which led to several on-field delays and a distraught FTA.

7) Careful with the tongs - if the PS at the Fueling Station touches a robot with the tongs through the airlock, it's a penalty. This happened more than once.Be very careful when trying to retrieve moon rocks and empty cells delivered by robots.

8) Make a plan - Always, always, always meet with your alliance prior to queuing to develop a strategy. Every time we did this we won by massive margins (one time it was 100 to 17). Know your teams capabilities and strengths, and how to use them against the other team's weaknesses and faults.


Personally, this was one of the most fun game modes I've ever played in. I was only the Commander, but it was so much fun trying to out maneuver the shooter robots. Running from the S.W.A.T team and trying to swing around to nail them with our "stinger" was some of the most fun I've ever had in FRC.

Re: Observations after week !
 

In response to that, Our team PS was in the outpost most often, he actually liked it there. We converted at LEAST 1 empty cell to a SC in all of our matches except our first practice match, we were having communication issues with the field. Only our robot really focused on running empty cells. We were really successful in that and I believe in part why are average placement throughout the qualifiers was 9th, went as low as 5th, and finished at 14th.

Autonomous mode suggestions: have at least 3 autonomous codes 1 for each stating position. You are allowed to have a switch on your robot and when the switches are in a certain alignment you can start one way as opposed to the other. Also if you alliance partner does not have an autonomous mode it is not a death sentence but it does not help. Teams please just add a drive straight at least. And if you have proficient programmers program one of your robots autonomous starts to knock into your alliances robot this way you move them.
What our teams autonomous was in normal matches we drove almost directly to our human player so he could pass us an empty cell. we also had alternatives to knock our alliance members out of score positions of opposing HPs.

One final good note, I really liked the presentation of 1676's scouting system. It was ordered by the average points scored and points scored against. The net points column really helped highlighting strong teams who may have had not so good alliances. I suggest that at every regional this scouting system is used because it really helped to show good teams.

In conclusion i really enjoyed week 1 of Lunacy at the NJ regional.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Alliances shall not live by dumpers alone, but by every moon rock that proceedeth from the turret of a shooter.:)

Ok, ok, I'm done. Anyway, everybody has some great insights, so I'll just say this. HP's are very very important. They can be the winning factor in a match, so make sure you have a good one!

Also, super cells are the bomb. They can also determine a match.

Re: Observations after week !
 

excellent quote:) i didn't mean that shooters are completley worthless either... b/c i saw a few that were effective. i think that a lot more strategy needs to be used with a shooter, but they can definently be an integral part of an alliance.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Been there before. Some teams have different attitudes toward the competition. I guess the best thing to do is make sure everyone on the alliance knows all of the rules. We make sure our PS is on top of everything they can screw up, so they don't.

Re: Observations after week !
 

More of the same comments:
Human Player is VERY important
Strategy is VERY important
Pinning and shooting is VERY important
Talk to your alliance in queue and work out your gameplan.
Empty cells and super cells are VERY important.
Did I say human player is VERY important.
Read the rules and test everyone before they go out to the field.

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

Well...crap. I take full responsibility for that one. My poor strategy did that...

Re: Observations after week !
 

One girl on our team asked about it and was told it was ok to throw but when she did a ref gave a penalty.

Re: Observations after week !
 

That's why it's very important to ask the head referee when you have rules questions and to be very specific when you do ask the questions.

Now just for example, if your quote above was the question it sounds like it would have been:

"Is it ok to throw this?"

Depending on time of the game, what "this" is, and all other factors, your answers may vary.

If you ask "Am I allowed to throw an empty cell over the outpost shield during a match?"

...you get a much more direct and clear answer and you won't get penalties called on your team.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Since the rules clearly state that you cannot, it seems like you would never even need to ask the question?

Re: Observations after week !
 

Teamcap 2395-That is very interesting.....we too were at OKC (Team 2389) and you might remember we had comm troubles the entire regional. When I tried to get assistance, the FIRST people told me that we were the only ones having that problem and that no other teams were experiencing no comms. They simply blew it off saying it was "your robot" but I was simply trying to get a fix on what was wrong. I was a mentor for 2389 and we changed EVERYTHING except the receiver. The only reason we didnt change that was time constraints because it would force us to have to reprogram and have another numer assigned. I thing communications is a bigger problem here that what they want to admit. I think there was several teams having the same problems. One time it would be fine, the next match we would loose it. There's more to the story here..........

Re: Observations after week !
 

First off, I learned that the GDC did a really great job designing the game this year, for several reasons:
-This game involves more strategy than I have ever seen before.
-Offense and defense are finally balanced, as you can't really do one without the other.
-Autonomous is important enough that every team should do it yet simple enough that every team can do it.
-Penalties are not deciding matches as often as last year.
-The human player is very important.

...the list goes on.

As far as things I've learned:
1. DO NOT leave your disable dongle screwed into your competition port when you go out onto the field! This happened to one of our alliance partners at DC. The team was unable to get the dongle off in time; when our other alliance partner tried to help them, both were disabled for being out of position at the start of the match. That was the only qualifying match we lost.

2. Train your PS. Our's threw all four empty cells over the wall during a practice match, netting our alliance 40 points in pentalties. We're lucky it was only a practice match.

3. Be careful with batteries; it's very disappointing to watch the cRIO continuously reset itself because your battery is at 6V.

4. Don't get your trailer jackknifed in the opposing alliance's refueling station corner. This is the worst possible position you can be in on the field. It caused us to lose an elimination match; our robot was flat against the drivers' wall, our trailer was flat against the side wall, and we could not move while the opposing alliance's PS easily scored 5-8 moonrocks.

5. Attempting to win a pushing match is futile. Unless your opponent has absolutely no traction control, you will not get anywhere. Get out of the way and move on.

6. Supercells are more important than I thought they would be, especially in the elimination rounds.

7. This game is very difficult to scout.

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

How do you know the higher seeded alliance wins half the time? This only shows red and blue wins.

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

In elimination rounds, the red alliance is the higher seed. The cited stat was from elims, not qualifiers.

Re: Observations after week !
 

avoid two empty cells.
we had one in our system and trying to unload it we pushed another with our bumper...

it was a penalty.


and while super cells are a great life line, a strong alliance doesn't necessarily need them.

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

red is always the higher seeded alliance in the elimination matches

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

Only if the higher seed wins.

If 1 loses to 8 in the quarters, 8 becomes red for every subsequent match they play in the elims.

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

That is not true, At Midwest regional, in the semifinals the #8 seed alliance was red and the #4 was blue, and in the finals the #3 seed was blue and the #4 seed was red.

Re: Observations By the Numbers [<G14> - 11%]
 

Exactly. We were red in the finals at BAE, as the #4 seed, playing against the #2 seed.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Scouting is also exremly important in this years game. You must always know what teams have a good robot. At midwest everyone pretty much got a good first pick. but come 2nd pick some teams looked like they where digging deep trying to remember the number of the "one bot" they saw.

Ranking doesn't mean anything if you don't have a chance to be a allaince captian. stuff happens during the qualification matches that could drop a team out of the running to be in the top 8. Ill use my team as an example. at the midwest regionals we finished with a record of 2-6. but because team 135 had great scouting and didn't care that we where ranked 47 out of 53. They saw that in the beginning that yes we where not working right and had really bad luck. However we stabalized and where consistanltly a factor in our final 3 matches. They picked us and we then went with 135 and 2039 all the way to the finals. Long story short just because a team is ranked badly doesn't always mean they are a bad team.

Thank you 135 for picking us to be on your alliance it was a great experience

Re: Observations after week !
 

were there any turreted shooters that did well, if so how were they tracking?

Re: Observations after week !
 

Same thoughts, just in TC.

3. If all your autonomous code is one where you drive straight ahead, let your alliance know. That's all that ours did. So we'd make sure we were in a spot where we could drive straight and pin another robot while our HP just sat there and threw balls into their trailer.

On another note, don't be afraid to ask for help. One of our alliance partners (2834 I believe), was having problems with their code and they asked us for help. One of our mentors looked at the code and within a few moments, it worked.

8. Plans are always good ideas, just don't make them with your alliance while your opposing alliance is standing right next to you. I believe that's a good part of the reason why we lost in the quarter finals.

Thanks 2834 for picking us. ^_^

Re: Observations after week !
 

At mid west the best turreted shooters where 217 thunder chickens and 1114 simbotics. From what i learned from them was that they where just eyeballing the aim of their shooter. The cameras where not that reliable this year due to the sensitivity to the lighting.

My team is also a turreted shooter and we had camera calibration issues. the lighting in the pits was different than the lighting on the field. Our camera in the pits would see the target just fine but on the field it was a glowing. To correct this we put a sunglasses lense over our camera. This gave us a 75% success rate in the tracking of targets. however we only used it in autonomous because it is just too slow to use in the teleoperated period.

P.S. our bot never scored a ball in autonomous but our camera did track targets every now and then and once tried to shoot but ran out of time.

Re: Observations after week !
 

What I actually saw was most of the strong winning teams were dumpers. Shooters were effective but dumpers seemed best.

EX: team 25's robot was a short range shooter and worked really well. I haven't seen very many successful long range shooters though.

The winning alliance teams from the NJ Regional, 2753 1923 and 2344, were all quick fast power dumpers.

I believe shooter work but personally I believe dumpers are best.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Oh my gosh I couldn't agree more!! the first couple matches they kept telling us "you guys need to fix your electronics, we're not recieving any voltage" so we asked EVERY SINGLE TIME "ok so what did we do wrong so we can go fix it" and they would always say the same thing "well we're not recieving any voltage from you guys, if you ask someone at the pits they'll tell you" so we asked and they said the same crap. And we got no comm a time or two but they fixed it before the match started. I must admitt it was rather frustrating, eventually the guy told us exactly what we needed to do to fix it so I do give them credit for that.

Re: Observations after week !
 

And what was that?

Re: Observations after week !
 

One idea we came up with while competing in KC was that if we had doubled or tripled the other alliances score, we started having our huma player shoot into our own trailer. We did this to prevent us from losing super cells our next match. We thought it was a very strtegic move even though a lot of teams wondered what we were doing.

Re: Observations after week !
 

another thing that really stuck out to me was that basically any shooter that was effective was in essence a dumper in that they would try and pin the trailer and would only shoot from close range. i don't think i saw anyone actually shooting the entire weekend.

also i saw very few teams human loading. The only 2 teams i saw human loading where 1923 and 25 but only like 2 or 3 balls when they drove up to the player and 1625 who loaded up only at the start of the match. what are peoples thoughts on this matter?

Re: Observations after week !
 

We started human loading friday at BAE, and continued through saturday and elims. Near the start of each match, we drive up to the outpost and are loaded with 3-4 balls, in order to fill our hopper without sticking around for too long. Afterwards, we stayed to floor-loading. This worked well, as long as we used it wisely, and got away if strong dumpers or shooters came up to us from behind - in one semi, we stayed around for a second too long and got a load of moon rocks scored upon us by BUZZ. This was the only instance that this mid-field paused caused us any real vulnerability, though. Overall, I felt this strategy proved solid.

However, that is only to speak for a quick, optional and partial human load strategy, and not for dedicated human loading. What troubles or successes have teams going with no-ground pickup strategies encountered?

Re: Observations after week !
 

At KC I saw very few teams that were human loading during the match. It seemed to me that the robots that were not made to collect balls off of the ground did not recieve more than the occational miss by an HP during play. That being said once they spent their beginning load they either became EC runners or targets.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Human loading is risky unless you do it in autonomous which is what 25 did.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Some floor loaders like 1114 also went to their corner airlocks to receive ammo, I believe. It was one of these moments when 1114 was pinned and stayed there the entire match. Regardless of loading method or reason, it seems prudent to consider having an alliance partner stand by and protect you while moving over to a PS corner. You might also choose to get creative in how you position yourself in a corner so an escape under duress is more likely, and you limit the opposition's access to your trailer while you load up.

Finally, consider using your human loader robot as a decoy to lead other teams into a trap in your PS corners..... Turn the tables against those would-be assailants. ;)

Re: Observations after week !
 

Did any teams get caught trying to avoid a g-14? You know, keep the score close and then the other teams toss fuel cells. Or worse, you over fill your own trailer.Just wondering if anyone is now saying,"We will take the 2x but try to avoid 3x"

Re: Observations after week !
 

Defense can make a big difference, by pinnign the moust powerful robot on the other alliance you can make a massive difference.

Re: Observations after week !
 

We spent the weekend working on our turret aiming. A realistic framerate on the camera with the given Labview Find Color code is between 10-15 FPS. We are using 160x120 decimated twice to bring it up to 15 FPS pretty consistently, but it dips to 10 on occasion. We simply didn't have the labview knowledge or the time to further optimize the supplied routine.

10 Frames per second. Compare that with a robot speed, of, say 10 feet per second. At that speed, you get one frame every robot foot. You finish processing that frame in about .1 seconds. So by the time you tell your turret to turn, your target is already 1 foot from where it was before.

Unless you're using a targeting procedure that calculates absolute position then figures out how to lead the target, you're going to have a VERY hard time hitting that trailer when you include travel time of the ball.

There are ways of fudging it that work to varying degrees, but adding in the new control system this year and any team that pulls it off in the first couple weeks will be superhuman in my book. I have no doubt that the teams who have the funding to run a second Crio and practice robot may have it working pretty well in a couple weeks - see simbotics and chickens, etc.

Re: Observations after week !
 

We did this in our first Quarter Final Match. We were up 80 something to 30 something and everyone stopped scoring and just moved around. The final score ended up being 36-90 in our favor.

The big thing about avoiding a G14 is that you should always be in a scoring position and chose not to score, so then if the other alliance uses a Super Cell or opens out into one of your trailers you can be ready to counter-attack. You don't want to be stuck trying to avoid a G14 and then losing because you couldn't score in time.

Re: Observations after week !
 

The trick is in positioning yourself. Just like a dumper, you can't just shoot anytime you want. The best position is following behind a trailer and matching speed. Another good time to shoot is when a robot is switching directions and is not moving fast.

Dumpers have to be right up against a trailer to score, shooters need to have a good line of fire.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Ours is a turreted shooter and we qualified as the #1 seed and won the regional. During teleoperated our gunner controlled the movements of the turret with his joystick, without a tracking code, and shot a fairly hghi percentage. However, we had different speeds we could shoot at and ended up basically dumping at point blank range. We were able to follow trailers well enough we didn't have to shoot many long range shots unless we had to shoot over a bot.

Re: Observations after week !
 

There were several instances where we were driven into a corner and held there when our alliance mates were incapable/ very bad at scoring. Then the remaining robots on the opposing alliance had their way with the rest of our alliance. It wasn't pretty though it was a sign of respect in a twisted sorta way.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Save the information on your wireless receiver to disk. There is a 'download configuration' button on the configuration page. That way, if you ever replace the receiver and also misplace your WPA key, you have something to load into a new receiver. We were the guinea pigs for this, and it worked like a charm.

Move in autonomous. Put purpose behind your movement if you can; if everyone crashes into each other in the middle there's really no way you can effectively begin executing a strategy in teleop.

Talk with other teams' human players. Show the Outpost person where the empty cell must go. Remind everyone if they should load your bot's hopper as you pass by. Help them out by waving wildly during the match if you have to.

The hardest part to get used to in this game is its ever-changing nature. Your strategy MUST change in response to your opponents if they get the upper hand. Sticking to a plan that is being effectively countered is what got us in a bind in too many matches. Of course, your alliance partners have to agree and be willing to cooperate with a new plan -- not so easy in Qualifications :rolleyes:.

Do not be afraid to go on defense in a split second. Do not be afraid to take your super-star bot and pin for 10-20 seconds if the other 4 bots are on the opposite side of the field.

Generally, fan drive trains > swerve > skid steer with traction control. Yet for defense, crab/omni bots conquer all :cool: Note that this has nothing to do with what's above the drive train.

If you're in a traffic jam, figure out how to get out of it. If you're in open field, there's some action going on and you're obviously not part of it ;) at that moment. Choose those moments wisely.

Trailers without robots mean death -- you can have a great strategy for dealing with it, yet even if you properly execute them there are simply too many counters to those strategies. Go on Thursday and make sure everyone's working and inspected!

Re: Observations after week !
 

Apparently we had our modules switched and we were supposed to have power running to one of them, it was a quick fix but no one was able to find it until our 4th qualifying match.

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We have a good strategy that fits the outpost. Not many teams at traverse city wanted to start with robot or human player on the outpost, but after a ("NO COMM") day of competition on Friday, we had lots of time to figure out a game plan. We start autonomous and pin the other outpost player to the wall and then have our human player fill up their trailer. During the match we pin the heck out of other teams and try to get one decent dump. I know we aren`t AMAZING like some teams, but what kind of things could a team like us do to improve our strategy?

Thanks Guys,
Mike P.:cool:

Re: Observations after week !
 

So to those of you who have already attended a competition, how important is hopper size? Our robot can safely (without jamming) hold 7-8 balls, but we are capable of a fairly quick turnover and have great accuracy (90%-ish), but after seeing all of these teams with robots can hold 20 balls it makes we worry.

Re: Observations after week !
 

Hopper size is only one part of the scoring equation. Even if you can carry all the moon rocks on the field at once, you still need to be able to deliver them quickly or risk your target getting away while you're still trying to dump on it. A larger hopper can make a big difference if you can empty it effectively.

Re: Observations after week !
 

From what I saw on the webcasts it looked like hopper size gives you strategic flexibility. Many robots that had giant hoppers would score small bunches of 5-7 balls at a time throughout the match instead of counting on the 1 giant dump. I think it is definitely possible to be successful with a robot with a capacity of 7-8 balls, you just have to make sure your strategy fits the capabilities of your robot.

Re: Observations after week !
 

A large hopper's effectiveness depends on strategy. We can hold 20+ balls in our scoring mechanism. We never held this many though because it wasn't how we chose to play the game. If you only hold 7-8 but you can deliver them in a fast or even near instant punch with deadly accuracy you'll be fine. A lot of robots that have high capacity take a while to offload (>3-4 seconds) or can't offload with high accuracy so that's part of the equation too.

Really, high ball capacity is only effective if the robot has the mechanism to back it up.

Re: Observations after week !
 

I noticed
- most of the scoring was being done by the human players
- watch the static
- do not throw the obit balls over the wall
- most of the teams are doing an offensive strategy and it is good to have at least one defensive robot on your alliance

Re: Observations after week !
 

It also depends on the pickup speed of your robot. Many robots that have a high hopper capacity naturally take longer to fill up their hopper compared to medium sized hoppers like yours. Many dumper teams that I observed unloaded their hopper all at once, regardless of their accuracy. This means that if they miss, they miss big. A benefit having a medium sized hopper (10-11 moon rocks) is that if you miss a few of your balls, you can easily recover. A few times that we missed dumping the majority of our balls, 20~~ it was devastating