pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

I know that its really just a material possession, but I was disappointed to see the small trophies at NJ. I pictured 1089 walking back up into the stands waving around a big gold topped trophy that we all know and love. Oh well though, whatever saves money in these times, I guess?

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

I saw that mentioned in another thread about Team Overdrive's award.
I was shocked too, but you have a point.
Saving money is good... up until a point. :yikes:
(btw, in my opinion that point hasn't been reached yet - I'm sure I'll have some comments when I feel it is)
Also, speaking of saving money, did you notice the Suppliers/Sponsors were not listed under the FIRST logo banners on the curtain behind the field this year?
I don't know if that was just for the NJ regional, or all of them, or even for that reason, but it's interesting none-the-less.

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

Dude yes! I was waiting for someone to point that out! I thought that those were maybe forgotten in shipping or something. I'll ask Ackley. When I was up there Don Bowers didn't answer when I asked. Neither did Bart.

edit: just confirmed with Ackley, it was cost cuts and as far as he knows its the same at most if not all regionals.

Very nice picture btw. Can I get a copy? email to lilstogi@gmail please ^_^

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

I'm with you. I don't mind the new design as much as I don't like the Solid colors on the ribbon. It appears the "New" trophies for winners are the same size as the finalist trophies from previous years. They are a lot smaller. At least they kept the banners the same.

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Not to mention Trenton this year wasn't even packed or as lively as it usually is. Idk, something was just different and depressing about NJ this year. =(
It didn't have that same week 1 excitement it usually does.

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

I guess they don't care about our feedback....

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2008...s-in-2009.html


for my .02 I would rather see them choose a game element which doesn't cost $10 each. There are lots of ways to save money it seems funny that they would choose one that affects the teams so much.

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:( That's sad.

Does anyone know if the team surveys mentioned in Bill's post have a trophy question included on it? He seems to reference that as a way to legitimize the change.

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I really want to see the numbers released before I judge them more on this decision. Greg, I wasn't surprised that they didn't listen. It seems that FIRST now tends to give us the news on things that have already been decided upon and make it sound like we have a say in it. Oh well.

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I actually really like that design, I think it's cooler than years past. The red/blue ribbons don't bother me either. I do wish the old trophies were still around, but I guess I can compromise because the medals are neat! (And saving materials to save money/the environment is a noble cause too, I suppose. :cool:)


Yes, they did. I remember this survey, I participated in it last year. The main themes of the survey were about going green and about the possibility of a new tournament structure as FIRST expands. The awards we're seeing this year and the Michigan district competitions appear to be part of the results of this survey.

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

Sure. I'll send you a copy & I'll have more pics from NJ & The Scrimmage in Suffield before the end of build season on my Facebook page as well for you to browse. lol
About the missing banners, I just talked to a friend of mine who "live streamed every regional at one point" & he reminded me that sponsors/suppliers were on LCD screens last year (and not part of the banners at Regional events) & that every Regional event he saw webcast this year didn't have supplier/sponsor banners.
As an alternative, they were listed in the Regional program booklet of course, & on the center screen during field breaks. (Which there have been quite a few this year, so the sponsors are getting their money's worth this year!)


If we wanted to compare apples to oranges, a study could be done about & the effects they have been trying to "go green" I guess.
I agree the control system change to keep them year after year will help with this, - less repeat manufacturing (in theory) but what are the effect of holding more tournaments in lieu of less (Michigan competition Structure) which means more energy used at events, more waste from teams at the sites & more supplies for making more fields.
The alternative is that teams aren't competing miles away & may be traveling less, but I hardly see the environmental impact (in a positive way - yet at least) this may bring.
I guess we may see the results of that as time goes on, but like I said, I don't see the immediate positive impact... yet.

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at 20,000 lbs for 40something regionals, that works out to all of 475 lbs per regional.

475 lbs is basically nothing when you need an entire semi to haul all your stuff from event to event. That's a pretty poor reason.

I guess they do need the money so they can spend $2000 per field, per weekend on Orbit balls. :rolleyes:

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"475 lbs is basically nothing when you need an entire semi to haul all your stuff from event to event. That's a pretty poor reason."

The reason I am sure is to save money in general, not just the shipping cost. The blog states "to reduce this cost," meaning the cost of 20,000 lbs of trophies. That is a lot of material to pay for, and I would hope that smaller trophies cost much less than large trophies.

I have not tried to order 20,000 lbs of trophies, but I assume it is expensive, and I also assume FIRST employees have more than one reason for making decisions.

-Paul Ventimiglia

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After seeing the trophy size with better clarity, I didnt realize just how much smaller they are with respect to the previous years.
That's too bad.
Gotta save those old trophies now............

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I volunteered at the Midwest Regional this past weekend and was one out of a select few who had the honor of unpacking the awards and getting them ready for the Awards Ceremonies on Friday and Saturday. So, a few words...

First, make sure you thank each and every volunteer you see, because A LOT goes on behind the scenes that you probably don't even know about. It took 3-4 hours to get the awards unpacked, looking nice, with their award tags on and lined up on a table to hand out. This was something I didn't know happened until I actually got to work it, and it gave me some new appreciation for ever getting to win those awards.

Secondly, I understand it's kind of disheartening that the trophies are smaller, but in this economic crisis, sometimes you just can't go big. However, I think that if FIRST wants to show that the Chairman's Award is the most prestigious award a team can receive, I think they should keep that trophy the size it was prior to the change. All the other trophy changes I can deal with.

Finally, a bit of confusion on my side. While unpacking the awards, it came to my attention that FIRST ships awards for several different regionals to one event. (i.e. I was at Midwest and there were awards there for three-four other regionals not taking place this weekend). These awards were not back-up awards, and the crates were never opened. It seems to me that this would cost a lot of money to do. Does any one know if it is actually cheaper to do this?

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

This may sound cheesy, but....Isn't the 120 pound regional winning bot a big enough of a trophy? Honestly, I'll keep a little medal for a commemorative thing, but if it gets too big it just gets in the way. Don't know, I just never cared for the ridiculously huge trophies that take two hands to carry.

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Trust me, I am sure teams wont mind having that problem, if they win either a CA or RC award ('08 and previous year's trophy size).
My recommendation was that events keep the boxes they came in, so teams can easily transport their awards without damaging or scratching them.

The FIRST symbol at the top of the trophies can break off easily if your not careful. We know from first hand experience........ :(

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The fields tend to make a trip around the country to a bunch of regional events before making their way back to NH - I half expect to see the red transport boxes from NJ this past weekend to show up in NYC this coming weekend.
It more than likely saves money (and lots of time) to just lump the contents of multiple regional events in the same transport boxes rather than ship separate ones from FIRST at increments throughout the season.
You may have also noticed typically that field elements (Orbit Balls in this case) are in marked boxes for their (future) events as well, and if one regional "taps into" the supply of the next one, they need to note that before they send it on it's way so the next regional can be covered in case they are short anything.

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

Are the CA and EI awards red and blue strips as well?

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

yeah the medals we got for chairman's have blue ribbon stuff... however, the medals themselves aren't that great quality, some of them are starting to fray on the bottom, and a couple of people have broken theirs because they fell off the pin holding the ribbon to the medal itself... :(

on the other hand, the pins attached to the ribbons look like the national CA award, the clock, and they are AWESOME!!!

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I agree. If you were to hand these medals or trophies to someone who has not had experience of being in FIRST, they would be worthless. Whether FIRST is trying to save money or be a little more green, we should still appreciate the experience. And not many people can say they have a 120 trailer dragging orbit ball handling trophy!

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Hey, at least it's better then in 2007, when the Motorola Quality Award.....broke.

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Look at the MI structure as a environmental value impact. With the robot bagging system the robots are traveling directly to the event with the team traveling to the event in a 150 pound configuration. This is saving 250 pounds x 40 teams or about 10,000 pounds of shipping. Plus with the drayage system, there is a ton of extra run around. Yes it may be net environmental neutral since there are more events, but this is more return with neutral impact. That sounds like a good thing to me.

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

I noticed a few changes at the Buckeye.

- Less cameras than previous years (there were at least 3 last year, but only one this year). I don't blame them, though; renting cameras and hiring operators has to be pretty expensive, and it didn't really detract from the game.
- No sponsor banners beside the screen, but they showed sponsors on the screen every chance they could get.
- Smaller Friday trophies (both this year and last year, 1787 won Xerox Creativity, but the trophies this year are slightly smaller). Most of the size change is due to reducing the thickness of the base blocks of the trophy; the prisms/cylinder are close to the same height.

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

I have to dis-agree, getting that big award after a big win is a really cool thing.

I mean just look at there faces.

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

I'm not a huge fan of the smaller trophies, or the solid ribbon... but I like to think about it this way:

YOU STILL WON!

I know for the veteran teams that have a lot of wins behind them, the trophies look tiny, but for teams like mine that have never won anything official before- I'll take it no matter what size it is! I know my team accomplished something, and I'm proud to display whatever FIRST will give me to commemorate that.

I agree with a lot of posters that there are definitely better ways FIRST could have cut costs, and downsizing the trophies was not one of the best-looking options to us, the teams; but then again, none of us work at FIRST, right? We don't know what goes on there.

I think our best bet to voice this concern is to send that email Bill Miller suggested here, and actually have another suggestion to back it up. An email saying "OMG! THE TROPHIES SUCK THIS YEAR!" won't accomplish anything. A well-crafted reasoning, as well as your ideas and thoughts, might have a little more impact.

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

The engineering inspiration awards are red and say Regional Engineering Inspiration Award on them

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I think the medals themselves look really nice and the idea of the solid ribbons is growing on me (didn't the national chairman's medals used to come in a solid color?).

As for the trophies I recall saying to myself when they were carted out 'where is the second table with the "Big" trophies on it'. It wasn't until they started awarding the Finalist awards did I realize that was it, no big ones. I'm not complaining about the size or anything, I would be honored to be a recipient of any of the trophies FIRST produces to commemorate the efforts of the teams, I was just shock at first sight of them being so small.

All in all no matter how small the trophy they still carry the same meaning and carry with it the same memories of how it was earned through blood, sweat, tears and ultimately Gracious Professionalism.

No matter how small, carry it and yourself with pride!...You DID just WIN!

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

Can someone explain why a team is given two exactly the same trophies when they win one? Wouldn't just giving a team one trophy cut costs by half?

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

Typically one trophy is given to a team to keep the other is to give to their major sponsor and more can be ordered at the expense of the team after the event.

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...which strikes me as the first place that FIRST should have looked if they truly wanted to save money. I'll take one awesome trophy over two smaller ones. And if my primary sponsor thinks it's so important that they get a trophy as well, then they can probably afford to buy an extra from FIRST.

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Any reason behind not having the sponsor banners at each regional? Buckeye was missing these banners as well and only had the FIRST logo in their places.

Keep the big awards for the Chairman's Award. Having that big trophy is just the coolest thing and the teams who receive the Chairman's Award have earned it.

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Yup, I'm all for big awards, hell make them even bigger.

The guy in the pic seems to agree, "It's pretty cool winning a division, but I wish the trophy was THIIIIS tall (motions with hands"

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the idea of giving one trophy status quo in size vs two smaller ones now, sounds like a great idea.
Maybe FIRST could offer additional ones at a lower price compared to what they cost now. We ordered extra trophies from last season to give to student members who won awards from their division on our team, as well as mentors, and certain sponsors. They are not cheap at all!
If my memory serves me correctly, the CA last year was $500 a piece.
(I'll edit this if I'm wrong). I know that the smaller awards were about $60 and division finalists were $115.
Any links to the cost? I dished out so much last year, we forget already.

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One should be excited, not for the scrap of metal(that's all it is regardless of shape or size). Not for the victory. They should be excited about the path to the victory. Sure, a winning season is more fun then a losing one. But in the end that trophy is little more then a paper weight.

Question: How much does one of these trophies costs? How many are there at each regional? Bottom line, how much is FIRST saving? If it's anything notable, I personally say it is worth it.

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Here's one thing most of FIRST is missing in my mind.


WHAT THE COMMUNITY THINKS.

If FIRST wants teams to change culture, at least make it easier for us.

Regardless of whether or not the GP-mongers like it, a BIG trophy makes it way easier for the team to get attention (if they use it well).

Period, you won't convince me otherwise.

If FIRST wants to save money, there are a bunch more things they can cut before the trophies.

The fact that a regional trophy is smaller than some of the trophies my brother and I got as kids playing league sports upsets me (I also sucked at most of those, so the teams weren't going real far).

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At least the Woodie Flowers trophy is still the coolest trophy that has ever existed.

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I just hope FIRSTdoesn't cheap out with the trophies at the Championship
in Atlanta. Okay so they downsized the regional ones... but there's only one Championship event each year and it should have the biggest, the brightest, and heaviest awards/trophies.

-p :cool:

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I've been following this thread as it has grown. Here's a couple of thoughts:

a. if you are unhappy with the changes - make sure that the team member responsible for submitting the 2009 feedback form to FIRST - gets your feedback and submits it for 2010 considerations.

b. size has nothing to do with the standard of excellence that is being recognized in the award and symbolized in the trophy.

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Sure it does. Maybe not to those of us participating, because we know what we've done, but it sure matters to everyone not affiliated with the program (Schools, sponsors, etc).

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To put it simply, I don't care about them. If my sponsor is going to care about trophy size, maybe they shouldn't be sponsoring a robotics team. My experience is that the companies that care about petty things such as trophy size, generally are going to sponsor the football team anyway. Those that sponsor robotics care more about the students then the picture opportunities.

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It's not unreasonable to expect that sponsors want some demonstration of return on their investment. If you can not or choose not to provide trophies, awards or banners to them, I would expect that you are providing them with other data that demonstrates the value of their ongoing contributions. It's true that FIRST works even for teams that do not win events or awards, but it's harder to demonstrate that success to people that are not involved deeply in the program and the burden is on us to provide proof of the valuable effects of their contributions.

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Agreed to an extent. The trophies can still be showcased and accompany the team to demos and outreach - but it is also up to each team to work on strengthening those partnerships. Reputation goes a long way as well. Teams who have earned the awards strengthen their reputation with them and teams who have yet to accrue a lot of hardware, can still work to build their reputation in the community and in their partnerships with sponsors and schools.

Edit: Madison posted while I was typing. That's what I was trying to say. Thanks, Mad.

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In my mind, the goal of FIRST is to pull as many people into the program as possible, as the only way to change the culture is to have the people that form the culture involved. To pull people into FIRST you need a "hook"; for some people the hook is we build robots, for some people the hook is we help the community and for some people the hook is that we win big trophies.

By making the trophies all the same size it tells an outside observer looking at a trophy case that we celebrate the robot awards just as much as the Chairman's award. The Chairman's and EI trophies should certainly be different and "better" (whether that be larger or "nicer") than the other trophies. This allows us to easily show to someone that these awards are more important and more celebrated in the FIRST culture than the robot awards. Personally, I also feel that the GP award should fall somewhere in size between the EI and the robot awards. GP is a core value of FIRST and is a major part of its goal to change the culture and I feel that this award is often seen as less prestigious than many of the other awards such as the robot awards.

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

I heard McDonalds was going to shrink the size of their hamburgers but keep the price the same. Economic crisis, after all.

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A professional presentation of the season usually does the trick. Besides, 1766 usually gets its funds through grants and the sort.

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Dollars don't know intent. I guarantee you that much of the money supporting FIRST teams comes (unfortunately) in the form of tax writeoffs from otherwise apathetic corporations. And you better believe that big trophies at a demo can help direct the dollars at those particular board meetings.

(Nobody has ever accused me of not being a pragmatist)

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Well, that's just ridiculous.

In a FIRST context though, I'm pretty sure that the new, small trophies do indeed cost less than the original trophies. Otherwise, there'd be no point for the change. (Of course, that's assuming that the change was specifically made to cut costs).

I agree with Jane, however. If you don't like the new trophies (or any other policy for that matter), make sure to inform FIRST of your opinion. They won't know if you don't speak up.

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Lol I'm surprised this conversation continued for so long.

For those of you who don't care about the trophy size, then please stop posting in the thread. Those of us who do care are unlikely to change our minds (I know I am).

For those of us who DID submit into the survey, what did you actually write? If you didn't submit one, then please do so.

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WHAT?? I'm already dishing daily $3.13 (w/tax) for a large ice coffee everyday after it just went up 40 cents.......hehe.


In seriousness on some of the other posts, I'm all for different size trophies, as the level of expectations, difficulty, and celebrations in receiving the more prestigious ones (EI and CA) should coincide with its size.

We do a lot of events, and I think size does matter. Its not even about the money part. If we had to pay for them, I would as my point is that the recognition of receiving an award that is appropriate to its size shouldnt be factored into the money portion. But yes I know, IT IS.

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I guess some people will never know the true meaning of Christmas. Oh well, message received. This is my last post in this thread, as long as nobody specifically asks me a question or comments directly towards me.

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There's more people than just me that feel both ways. I know what a win without a trophy would represent, and what a win with a huge trophy would represent. I know its all the same thing at the end of the day.

Read my post on Bill's blog as it sums up how I felt about this.

Coming from a team that is highly successful in FIRST and is like a posterchild for FRC: (emphasis mine)

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I kind of like the new medals. they're not too much and not too little. also anybody notice that the engineering inspiration trophy is the same as the rest. i really haven't noticed it before, but for a trip to atlanta you would think that it would be a decent size. especially considering the second place finalists get a bigger trophy and don't get a trip. also there was no engineering inspiration banner, really surprised me also since it's a trip to atlanta. no complaints just observations

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Not to step up on a pedestal here but....

This whole discussion of Awards seems little petty. At a certain point in time who cares about the size of the trophy? IMO, all a trophy should do is remind you of what you did to earn it.

I think to much emphasis is put on the Awards. I'd much rather go out and play some great matches and make some awesome friends then win awards. If you're just in it for the awards you're missing out on a lot.

(This Post is not directed towards any individual but the FIRST community as a whole)

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

I don't recall it ever having a banner.

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i haven't really looked into it but one of our banners on the pit is a website banner... not really as big as engineering inspiration if you ask me.

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That's quite an assumption there Dustin ;) You know me, you know I'm not in it for the awards. That isn't the point I was trying to make.

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It's possible to order banners from FIRST with whatever you want on it (they're $200 each IIRC). To my knowledge, FIRST has never given out banners for any awards other than Champions and Chairman's.

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well my team would fork over $200 for something like that
rolls eyes...
even though we're trying to raise a truckload of money to get the team to atlanta without paying if for ourselves out of pocket.

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I get the feeling it's expensive to reprint them every year as the sponsors change.

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I think there may have been a banner prior to 2007. And is it really still a trip to the Championship. I thought only Regional winners, Chairman's, and Rookie All-star got qualified?

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There hasn't been a banner for Engineering Inspiration since 2004, possibly earlier.

As for what qualifies for the Championship, FIRST has had it posted for some time.

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I wanted to reiterate that this post doesnt imply that all we care about are medals/trophys, its just the thread topic for discussion as the trophies are smaller than in previous years.
After being in FIRST since 1999, its sort of like tradition, and I guess, sometimes its hard to see changes to something less, DUE to the economy.

Just for the record, I hardly think anyone does it most importantly for trophies. That aint worth it for the time, sweat and tears it takes to run such a program. I (speaking for our team) do it because #1 its FUN!!!!!!!:D

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Nope no banner, 48 won it at GTR in '04 (my sophomore year) and I don't remember a banner. We are only in possession of a total of four banners, one of which was given to a coach when he stepped down, and none of them are from EI.

They used to include technical trophies worth points to get you to the Championship event back then too.

These awards still count for the same and if a sponsor has issues with the size of them then they may need educated as to what they stand for and not look for a shiny piece of polycarb.

Sure it's nice to bring home the hardware, but in four years when you come back from college and see your team, or FIRST in general are you going to remember the trophy or the emotional gambit that was covered during the season that got you there.

Re: pic: 2009 FRC Medals - New Design!
 

Could I see what one looks like. We nominated a mentor and I'm new so I don't know yet. Please an Thank you.:)

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If they win the WFFA (Woodie Flowers Finalist Award at a Regional Event) they then have a chance to win the WFA (Woodie Flowers Award at The Championship Event) which is just slightly larger & would have their name put in the base as well!
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-...67598_8511.jpg

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Didn't the regionals last year have two LCD panels flanking the main screen with sponsors appearing on them?

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At San Diego they did, but only one at Davis for some reason:confused: