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-   -   Michigan rankings (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76260)

chinckley 31-03-2009 14:35

Re: Michigan rankings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by drhall (Post 843808)
216 has not said no!!

Working out details--Thursday is students last day and lots of AP test

We just saw you pop up on the list. Team 1254 is VERY glad you are going.

See you Thursday morning.

Carolyn Hinckley
Teacher
Team 1254

Ed Law 31-03-2009 16:46

Re: Michigan rankings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonrulr288 (Post 843273)
I say dont worry about Code Red being called a rookie team. next year they wont be; simple as that. I have no hard feelings against anyone in Code Red, or the team. So shall we drop it? It was FIRST's choice anyways...

I agree with you that we should drop this discussion as long as we keep the facts straight. FIRST did not decide that 2771 has to be a rookie team. FIRST said they can decide to be either a rookie team or a veteran team. It was their choice. For fairness to other rookie teams, I think they made the wrong choice.

2771 is a great team. I applaud them for all the things they did, considering they basically started from scratch as they said with no money, no tools and no place to build. I applaud them for the services they provided, tearing down the field, setting up the field, hauling it, webcast just to name a few. I would nominate them to win the chairman's award if they decided to be a veteran team. I think they add a lot to the competition with their enthusiasm as a team. And I definitely do not think they need to give back the awards. But like Paul said, none of these makes them a rookie team.

It was their choice. I am glad they brought up the issue to FIRST and FIM and notify them when five more veteran students joined. That was the right thing to do and I applaud them. I am glad they asked for advice from others. Did they ask the legal experts or moral experts? Ultimately it was their choice. Nobody held a gun to their head to decide to be a rookie team. Yes they did their due diligence so it was legal according to FIRST, but morally it was wrong. I don't think FIRST is correct in letting a team decide whether to classify themselves as a rookie or veteran team. FIRST set up the rules and they need to clarify it and enforce it, and should not be wishy-washy about the whole thing.

I am not here to condemn their action. I am trying to teach my students to always do the right thing, what is morally right and not just legally right. I thought that is what FIRST wants us to do, to follow the spirit of the rule and not lawyering the rules. We are responsible for our actions, in making our own choices. Just because somebody said it is okay does not make it okay.

I am saddend about some of the comments in support of their action. It shows me that moral relativism prevails in our culture today especially in the younger generation. They believe that there is no absolute right or wrong. Everybody is entitled to their own opionion about what is right and it is based on what they feel is right. This is what I hear from these people "Team 2771 did so many good things and I support them no matter what they do and I am willing to overlook their choice because it is not important to me and it does not affect me." Sorry about this simple generalization. I know not everybody feels that way.

It is still their choice to do the right thing. Not yours or mine. There is an absolute right and wrong and it is not done by polls.

Respectfully,

Ed

LWakefield 31-03-2009 21:14

Re: Michigan rankings
 
At the West Michigan district, Code Red team 2771 was very nice to us. They came up and talked to us. Also, one of the mentors and some of the students congradulated us for our win.

Also, I thank team 2771 for webcasting. My relatives watched it.

Molten 31-03-2009 21:53

Re: Michigan rankings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Law (Post 843892)
There is an absolute right and wrong and it is not done by polls.

I agree there is a right and wrong. However, who is to decide? Nobody. It is something each of us must look inside of ourselves and decide. If they do something I don't agree with, it isn't my place to say anything against them. That is for FIRST to do if they see fit. Also, I really don't care what they did, it has nothing to do with any of the awards they won or anything of the sort. My question is this, "do you feel it is right to critique other people's decisions?". To me, that is morally wrong.

Is "If somebody does something you don't agree with, be sure to tell them." the message you want for your students?

Quite frankly, it really isn't any of our business. Unless your a rookie team that might have won one of those awards, you really hold no stake in the matter.(and neither do I) Even if you are one of those rookie teams, it is good to go up against an "unfair advantage".

This is a message I'd like to tell all you teams out there: Feel free to have your adults do all of the students work, I don't mind. It just gives the students I work with that much better experience. It just increases the challenge and requires them all to do that much better to compete.

*I am very students-do-the-work oriented. Not trying to start a debate on that, it just fit in well with what needed said.

Ed Law 01-04-2009 00:11

Re: Michigan rankings
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Molten (Post 844084)
I agree there is a right and wrong. However, who is to decide? Nobody. It is something each of us must look inside of ourselves and decide. If they do something I don't agree with, it isn't my place to say anything against them. That is for FIRST to do if they see fit. Also, I really don't care what they did, it has nothing to do with any of the awards they won or anything of the sort. My question is this, "do you feel it is right to critique other people's decisions?". To me, that is morally wrong.

Is "If somebody does something you don't agree with, be sure to tell them." the message you want for your students?

Quite frankly, it really isn't any of our business. Unless your a rookie team that might have won one of those awards, you really hold no stake in the matter.(and neither do I) Even if you are one of those rookie teams, it is good to go up against an "unfair advantage".

This is a message I'd like to tell all you teams out there: Feel free to have your adults do all of the students work, I don't mind. It just gives the students I work with that much better experience. It just increases the challenge and requires them all to do that much better to compete.

*I am very students-do-the-work oriented. Not trying to start a debate on that, it just fit in well with what needed said.

Thank you for sharing your point of view. I appreciate your thoughtfulness on this matter. We are going off the topic here but here we go.

What you said and your point of view is exactly what I described as moral relativism. Relativism can be described as saying all points of view are equally valid and each person is to decide what is right or wrong based on their upbringing and experience and there is no absolute right or wrong. Let me use some examples. Most people across all cultures would probably agree that taking something from somebody without permission is wrong or borrowing money from somebody and refuse to repay is wrong. Why? A small number of people may not agree. Is it just a difference in opinion? If somebody did that to you, do you think that action is wrong because that person did something you don't agree with? Do you think it is wrong only because it affected you? If it happened to somebody else you don't know, is that action okay then because you really don't care?

No, this is an example (may not be the best one but it just came to my mind) of universal truth, an absolute right and wrong. It is not an opinion.

Some people think that it is okay to take things from others under some circumstances.

"He was mean to me so I took it as a revenge."
"I took it from the store not for my own use. I plan to give it to somebody as a present."
"I need the money more than her. What I took do not even make a dent in her bank account."
"All my life these people keep taking advantage of me. What I took from them I deserve every bit of it."

Are these valid arguments? Is stealing permitted under some circumstances? Most people would think not but some people use these excuses to justify their actions.

I respectfully disagree with your statement that each of us look inside of ourselves and decide what is right and wrong.

My second point is about justice and fairness. I agree with you that just because you have a difference in opionion as somebody else does not mean you have a right to criticize other's action. However when something is unfair and unjust, do we just sit idle. If someone you don't know is accused of a crime and is about to be sent to jail for life, and you know for sure that person did not commit the crime, do you say it is really none of your business and you carry on with your life? Is it just a difference in opinion between you and the jury? Most people will probably say something because they believe in justice and fairness. That is why we should speak up to help the poor and the weak who can not defend themselves. A lot of people goes to jail because they can not afford to hire a good lawyer to get the truth out.

So since only 3 rookie teams did not get a chance to win the rookie all-star award who might have otherwise ultimately win one of the 2 spots to qualify for Atlanta, who may have a senior on the team and this is their first and only chance to experience the World Championship, it is okay because it did not affect you. Base on your thoughtful writings, I don't think you would think that way if you have considered that.

My message to my students is not "If somebody does something you don't agree with, be sure to tell them." In this case, it is not just an opinion. It is morally wrong. Most rookie team would be afraid to voice their opinion fearing that they would be criticize as being un-GP like or thinking the award is more important than the experience. Some just didn't know about this issue at all. That is why I feel obligated to bring this up, to question their decision and to tell my students to do the right thing every time they make a decision, and consider how you may affect some people when you make that decision.

Your point about student do all the work I mostly agree. I don't think this relates to what we were talking about. This topic has been debated many times on CD. FIRST is a mentor based program. In my opinion (and yes it is just an opinion) that engineering mentor should not just sit there and do nothing unless the students ask them a question. If I understand FIRST's philosophy correctly, engineering mentors should work side-by-side with the students and participate like anybody else. They would brainstorm, voice their opinion, suggest design options, go over the pros and cons of different design just like anybody else on the team. The difference is they have a college degree and have real world experience that will benefit the students. On our team, we used QFD to decide on the robot fundtions. I came up with one initial concept but many of the subsequent improvements we made came from the students. As far as building the robot, my students did 100% of the work. They did 100% of the fabrication and assembly. I never touched any of the tools except sometimes when I need to find the tools for the students because somebody misplaced them.

If you would like we can sit down and discuss about whether there is absolute truth and absolute right or wrong off line. I am afraid the moderators are going to ban me for preaching. :-)

Thank you for taking the time to voice your opinion. It shows that you do care.

Ed

Molten 01-04-2009 00:34

Re: Michigan rankings
 
In response to Ed's finish: The discussion is what PM is for. I'll send you one, and we can continue this there.

Everyone else continue on with your convo. Sorry for the sidestep.

EricH 01-04-2009 00:43

Re: Michigan rankings
 
Ed, I know you're going to disagree with this, but FIRST can reassign a team if they so choose. They chose not to do anything, knowing that enough veterans had been added to disqualify the team from rookie status. Does this make things right, ethically? Not necessarily. Legally, yes. Morally and ethically, you make the call. Would I have done the same thing? No. I'd have probably asked FIRST for a veteran number and veteran status under the definition of rookie. The team in question did not. It may have been too late to do so when this happened, also.

In my opinion, the bigger issue is that after winning 1 RAS, they chose not to take themselves out of judging for the others. This is admittedly a team decision, but good practice often dictates that once a team wins an RAS at one regional event, at any future regional events they inform the judges of this fact and ask to be removed from consideration. This tends to happen at regionals outside of MI, and in MI before the district system: if you've already qualified through one award, you opt out at the next event if you can; sometimes this is required (RCA, for instance) and sometimes you can't exactly do that(Regional Champion).

Again, that's simply good practice; nowhere is it required. However, what is the guiding principle of FIRST? Gracious professionalism. GP requires that good practice be followed, unless there is a very very very very good reason not to.


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