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Fans for defense
Just wondering if any teams have tried to use a high power fan system defensively in this competition.
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Re: Fans for defense
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If you want the specs, PM me. |
Re: Fans for defense
we considered using one but decided not to based on the fact that the balls have large holes in them.
edit: i just realized the mike from my team is the starter of this topic |
Re: Fans for defense
We did and they worked great, if done right. We were able to get between a robot and its trailer, turn on the fans and push a team halfway down the field by its trailer. Theres alot more to building the fans than just slapping a motor on a blade. My team did alot of research
heres a video of them running in the pit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnw7ieccNNc |
Re: Fans for defense
It depends on what you mean by "defense". We had two FP driven propellers on our bot that provided 6-8 lb.s of thrust. At one point, when our ball intake broke, our driver pushed 1319 (flash) all the way down the field sideways, to the human player, who then scored two super cells.
If, on the other hand, you mean using an air stream to deflect orbit balls, then no. We did some experimentation using a 3 hp leaf blower. While you could push the orbit balls around on the ground easily enough, we were not able to change the trajectory of an incoming orbit ball enough to make much difference. We decided that it wasn't worth pursuing. |
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I know the robodawgs were trying, but i saw one of their team members walking around with it (wired to a switch and a battery in his backpack), it made a huge amount of thrust, but i really never saw it work.
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A bunch have tried. my favorite is 180, basically you went where they wanted you to go. On another note with our basket dumper we cant dump on them while this fan is running (from directly behind). You can throw balls in to the trailer though
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Re: Fans for defense
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Second I feel I have to mention that I believe you were able to push us that way simply because our driver did not know how to maneuver out of it. Maneuvering out of it would have been possible and he was a rookie driver. The fans had nothing to do with it. Had you tried that again you would not have been as successfull. and Third if you guys keep posting your different strategies on here people our gonna know what to expect. I would be cool to see a team from the South even if you are on the "wrong side of the border" win it all but that will be more difficult if you don't keep some stratgy up your sleeve. Good luck |
Re: Fans for defense
469 Las Guerillas is using 2 fans for thrust. I'm not sure how well its working i didn't see any huge differences, but it was pretty cool either way, cause they were very little of there weight, so they had a heavy complex shooter and storage aswell.
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2753 is currently ;) fanless but they pin like mad. |
Re: Fans for defense
Having driven against 1771 in 4 matches, with them in about 8, and watched quite a few others, usually their fans seem to help much more with maneuverability rather than pinning. They can make turns much quicker, but in this game pinning is really about positioning. You much kinda wedge your close to their trailer hitch and push at an angle. Other pins usually are fairly easily escapable, fans or no fans. Note the last qualification match of Palmetto, 21 shut down and pinned 1771 and their fans the hole match.
So in conclusion, I have seen fans effective to aid in turning and some acceleration, but dont make a huge difference in terms of pushing and pinning. |
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they will be able to push more than a normal bot theres not really much to argue and i'm not gonna yell at him for posting strategies, lol :D |
Re: Fans for defense
It is hard to get out of a pin in this game, as I said we were not yet pinned while we were being pushed in open field. This is when it is critical to maneuver yourself away before getting pinned between two robots or a robot and a wall. The trick is to recognize exactly when you are getting pushed and to start turning out of it by turning your left side fwds and your right side backwards if you are getting pushed on th left side with your trailer behind you. We tried this when we returned to prove it, it is like pushing against a moving wall, and if the opponnent driver does not expect it, it will work. Sorry if I got the wrong impression, and obviously this will not work if you do not have enough manuvering space.
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Bug him for posting strategies would've been better wording lol sorry bout that
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You guys really think he posted all of our strategies? lol you are mistaken unfortunately for you.
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Remember, "knowledge shared is power squared" (not sure who originally said that). |
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Re: Fans for defense
I didn't see anyone post the obvious strategy as far as escaping a pin -> get your alliance partners to help! Teamwork pretty much always wins ;).
As for the original post, fans on defense, not only is it hard to make them powerful enough to be effective, but it is hard to angle them correctly. Any fan pointed at any angle other than parallel with the ground would change the normal force on the bot, which could cause it to be ruled a traction device in violation of R06 (I'm not 100% sure on whether it would qualify, but I believe I recall a GDC post about altering air pressure to increase traction, again, not 100%). |
Re: Fans for defense
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http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=11025 |
Re: Fans for defense
Thanks for the link Eric. Knew I had seen a post, but couldn't remember exactly ;).
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Re: Fans for defense
Not to slam a team that we pinned, whatever. I'll try to find the video of the match where our team was pinned by two bots, one on each side, and pulled out of it. That was cool.
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We used FP motors and followed 1771 recommendation on the nuances of the shroud shape: We could push any bot. We put our fans on a turret and varied them between 75% and 100% power in our final two matches. The fans properly used have a dramatic impact. I have no concept of how an expert driver could possibly avoid a pin unless she/he gets their alliance bot to run intentionally run interference: we were faster, more manueverable and could push stronger. If I could start over, then I would recommend a 4 wheel drive train and at least 15 lbs of thrust from four fans on a turret. Turn it into Sumo bot wrestling. Easy pushes and excruciatingly long pins in front of alliance human shooters. I might even throw in a compressor/tubing and solenoids to rapidly puff air to keep the traction wheels and the regolith in front of them free of dust to improve traction. Ball manipulation would be completely optional/superfluous. :P http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/33618 |
Re: Fans for defense
I hope that no-one took my comments as a slam against ANY team, certainly not 1319. You guys built an awesome bot, and we enjoyed watching and playing with/against you at Peachtree and Palmetto. You guys were deserving of the quality award at Peachtree, as well as the judges award at Palmetto. I only singled you out as an example of using the added thrust of propellers as defense (the whole point of this thread). I still believe that the play in question was not the fault of your driver, or your robot. The added 6-8 Lb.s of thrust from the propellers gave our bot the strength and speed necessary to push a robot sideways all the way down the field.
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Re: Fans for defense
Good luck at the champs 1771.
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Interesting idea with the turret. Out of curiosity, what kind of turning speed do you have on it, and what angles can it reach? Is it a fully rotational 360, or do you have a limit on it? Also, how high do you have the turret mounted? While it doesn't matter quite as much with the trailer, I would think having rotating fans set up high would create a tipping hazard. And that's an interesting idea about using a compressor to puff air in front of the wheels. Has that been tried by anyone? I'm curious about what gains you would see from that. |
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The trailer and the rectangle wheel base makes it difficult to envision a significant tipping danger. I have not seen the compressor puffing tried, but I saw one team with paint brushes to clean wheels and another team that won an award at the Connecticut Regional for an innovative way of keeping their wheels clean (I did not see or hear about their actual configuration). Those teams got me thinking: why not clean the wheels and the path at the same time for even better results. Keeping the dust off wheels definitely helps with traction especially after the crater has been used a few times. Cleaning wheels between matches certainly helps. We aren't going to nationals but its hard to ween myself off this challenge.:o |
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