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-   -   A Rule for this year's Competition (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=765)

Todd Derbyshire 23-10-2001 13:18

That is why if an already qualified team is qualified they shouldn't be in the qualifiers(a.k.a Regionals). Instead maybe FIRST can give those teams that have qualified some extra weeks before there robot is due. I don't know but that could be one suggestion to help the certain crisis in Registration. CAUSE ONCE AGAIN IF A TEAM THAT IS QUALIFIED WINS then you are going to in effect losing the best of the best aspect that FIRST is trying to bring to the Florida competition.

Christine G. 23-10-2001 14:06

Quote:

best of the best aspect that FIRST is trying to bring to the Florida competition
How do you get best of best out of all the even number teams qualifying for Florida and none of the odd number teams qualifying:confused: They ruled out half of the playing field and that doesn't give you the best of the best!

Wayne Doenges 23-10-2001 14:22

Todd, you said "CAUSE ONCE AGAIN IF A TEAM THAT IS QUALIFIED WINS then you are going to in effect losing the best of the best aspect that FIRST is trying to bring to the Florida competition." If a team can't beat a "pre-qualified team" than they aren't the best of the best for the Nationals.

Wayne Doenges

Mike Soukup 23-10-2001 16:30

Multiple responses to multiple posts:

Jeff, this isn't a flame war. I'm not upset, but when I write, I get my point across quickly and I'm usually blunt. There are a lot of people who feel strongly about this point and it's good to hear everyone's opinions.

[quote]Originally posted by Todd Derbyshire
I hate to disturb everyone's break into reality but I know that if I was in a competition for a qualifier I would go full force to try to win. No I'm not saying that cheating is good or anything, but if a team pays $4000 to go to a competition which is a qualifier for Florida and then you get there and say oh lets be nice and let random team win... that is not going to happen and I hope it doesn't. I personally like to see the rivalrie
Quote:

s the deception the betrayal and COMPETITION in the game. If that happens this year I would throughly enjoy it better than the six old play school game we played last year.
I'm glad to hear you, and I'd assume everyone, is against cheating in FIRST competitions. I agree that last year's game wasn't good for head-to-head competition, and a team's success relied too much on random partners.

But being nice is not mutually exclusive with good competition & rivalries. Teams can compete their hardest against each other on the field and be friends off the field. We battled against Beatty at 3 competitions last year (including IRI) and partnered with them once. Even though we tried our hardest to beat them on the field and have a small rivalry going, our teams are still friends & got together a couple of times over the summer.

Quote:

That is why if an already qualified team is qualified they shouldn't be in the qualifiers(a.k.a Regionals). Instead maybe FIRST can give those teams that have qualified some extra weeks before there robot is due. I don't know but that could be one suggestion to help the certain crisis in Registration. CAUSE ONCE AGAIN IF A TEAM THAT IS QUALIFIED WINS then you are going to in effect losing the best of the best aspect that FIRST is trying to bring to the Florida competition.
A few points...
Keeping already qualified teams out of the regionals would hurt those teams. Regionals give teams a chance to practice against other teams in real game situations (which there is no substitute for), figure out if they need to change any hardware, and to test & practice new strategies. By keeping them out of regionals, you're hurting their chances at winning the Championship.

Allowing pre-qualified teams to compete in & win regionals does not remove the 'best of the best' aspect of Nats. It merely reaffirms the fact that the team belongs at Nats. Plus, as Wayne said, since the team that finishes second doesn't win the regional, they aren't the 'best of the best.'

Mike

Todd Derbyshire 23-10-2001 20:11

Question of the day
 
Ok so who qualifies if a qualified team wins a regional???
Anyone have answer because Mike obviously doesn't get it. Yes it is a total random even number team. So my point I believe holds true that if a pre-qualified team goes to a Regional that they should participate in the regular rounds and then they should be eliminated. This is the only true way FIRST can keep Florida the best of the best and be equal with the elite teams.



Quote of the day: "It's True it's true!" Kurt Angel WCW U.S Champ

Clark Gilbert 23-10-2001 20:15

Qualifier......
 
The way i read it was that the already qualified team qualifies for winning........

David Kelly 23-10-2001 20:17

Re: Question of the day
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Todd Derbyshire
Ok so who qualifies if a qualified team wins a regional???
Anyone have answer because Mike obviously doesn't get it. Yes it is a total random even number team. So my point I believe holds true that if a pre-qualified team goes to a Regional that they should participate in the regular rounds and then they should be eliminated. This is the only true way FIRST can keep Florida the best of the best and be equal with the elite teams.



Quote of the day: "It's True it's true!" Kurt Angel WCW U.S Champ

a disagreement

what would the point of going to the regionals if you can't play in the finals. if you have a chance to win or get a trophey, then no way should you be denied your chance. it's not everyday that you have the chance to win, why should that chance be taken away now?

DK's $.03

Jay Lundy 23-10-2001 20:49

Re: Question of the day
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Todd Derbyshire
Ok so who qualifies if a qualified team wins a regional???
Anyone have answer because Mike obviously doesn't get it. Yes it is a total random even number team. So my point I believe holds true that if a pre-qualified team goes to a Regional that they should participate in the regular rounds and then they should be eliminated.

This is the only true way FIRST can keep Florida the best of the best and be equal with the elite teams.

Obviously FIRST is NOT making Florida only the "best of the best". If they wanted it to be that way, they certainly would not have allowed even teams to sign up first come first serve. If a team can make it to the finals, they definately deserve to compete. Like Mike said, it allows teams the opportunity to practice and test their robot.

Another thing, are you saying 10 year teams like the TechnoKats should never be allowed the chance to compete in the playoffs simply because they are gauranteed a spot at nationals? (I don't mean to start an argument about that qualification rule.) Or maybe a team wins a regional, qualifying them for the 2002 nationals, but they still only have 3 points, not enough to qualify them for the 2003 nationals. If they do poorly at nationals, then they have forfeited their ticket to the 2003 nationals by not participating in the regional playoffs.

Jay Lundy 23-10-2001 21:08

Re: A Rule for this year's Competition
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Todd Derbyshire
This system does seem to have its flaws:rolleyes:
Yes it does have its flaws, but if most of these "flaws" were corrected, even bigger, more controversial flaws would be brought up.

For example, the disagreement over what year should be used when determining whether a team is qualified for the nationals. Right now, it is the year before. At first this seems flawed because each year is an entirely different game with entirely different robots, but if you think about it you realize that if team qualifies for nationals just 1 month before the competition, then there is barely any time to organize a trip to florida and many qualified teams would not be able to attend. FIRST recognized this, took into account that good teams tend to perform well year by year, and made the decision that they felt was the best.

The only possible flaw in the qualification I can think of is that the 10 year teams are automatically qualified.

Oh yeah and rookie teams should start out with some amount of points because they did not have a previous year in which to qualify.

nick reynolds 23-10-2001 23:47

I have been reading the threds with great interest and I thought to my self that some of the things said were exactly what I said over a month ago. For my thoughts and fears I got a real reaming by some FIRST members.
I think that now that some time has passed that reality is starting to become evident. I see fear and a little anger in the writings of some people and I think its justified.
I wonder to my self if Dean or others from FIRST read the things that are said on this site. The first thing thats evident is that some members feel betrayed for their loyalty and hard work, All the years of building up FIRST may have been for nothing for many unless you concider every other year the prize.
It will be impossible for many teams to go due to time restraints and bookings. As an adult I need more than three weeks to book my time away from work and if I book it out and our team doesnt go to Florida it could cost me a lost week of vacation and several thousand dollars in wage loss.
Below is what I wrote last month

1. Dean is now steping back from his announcements that he makes each year at the Nationals on how we have grown from the prior year.
This year he can announce how the Nationals have decreased by 35%.
2. Mentoring will end as there is now a distinct disadvantage of introducing other teams and Schools to FIRST.
3. The "G-P" has gone out the window and its now a Dog eat Dog competition, why would any member of another team want to help themselves be beaten in a regional. infact can we now expect to see a little sabotage in the pits?
4. I have said this before that the competition is "bent" towards the wealthy teams and that a team thats struggling with money and experience is now going to suffer even more. Teams like #38 could not afford the Disney package so they stayed out side to save funds and we all know how well this amazing team did. but because they tried to save funds and get as many of the team there as possible they will be penalized this year so "Disney" can squeeze every stinking cent they can. Like they dont make a HUGE profit from us all ready.
5. If FIRST has grown beyond the capacity of Disney then rather than change the format and make teams suffer maybe we should look at a new venue. If this became an option you can bet your speed controlers that Disney would have a change of heart.
6. If cost has become an issue then why not increase the entry fee's, our budget last year was $54.000 whats an extra $500.

Dean, if your able to read this then please re-think some of the new rules. As volunteers who help our teams you need some consideration to what your doing to the life blood of the concept of FIRST.
Nick237

Mike Norton 24-10-2001 07:42

Thanks Nick I thought I was the only one out here that feels like that.



;)

nick reynolds 24-10-2001 09:39

Mike Im sure you and I are not alone in our thinking, And dont get me wrong we still have great respect for FIRST and the "Deanology " of Robotics but we the Adults are continualy under pressure to achieve the goals of FIRST.
FIRST is truely a learning expierience for the students but its an arduous mind numbing task for many Adults. This is my 4th year in FIRST and each year is harder than the last, is it too much to ask " could we try EASY for a change".
Some times I get the feeling its a test for the Adults to see how far "we" can go. I love the concept of working with and teaching students how to overcome because as we teach so do we learn.
Difficult is easy, impossible just takes longer, and 6 weeks is still 6 weeks. The regionals are a proving ground for our robot and if we do well then thats great, we then use the time between the regionals and the Nationals to Hone the Robot for the the big one "Florida".
If we have no Guarantee of going to Florida then it will be impossible to get sponsors to donate large sums of funds to our team this year. We have never done more than one regional but this year we are entered in 2. we possibly would have entered more but the cost and getting time off for the Adults and Students proved impossible.
Up untill this year the rewards of FIRST far out weighed the long hours and hard work but this year im not so sure.
Lastly let me ask everyone this. Should we express our concerns and post problems that we see or should we just keep silent. Do we have the right to give opinions or are positive posts the only exceptable forms of comunications between team members.
FIRST to me is still the greatest organization that brings students and adults together.
Nick237

Mike Norton 24-10-2001 10:17

Nick

You do have the same thoughts. to do alll this work and then tell the kids sorry you can't go to the big dance. What is that saying. I have said this in alot of my replys in differnt threads. Our school is now getting funds to do Battelbots. It is a lot cheaper and I have all year to work on the robots. Plus there are 3 competition we can go to. The cost it takes to go to the second regional in FIRST we can use that money to travel to the 3 events that battelbots have. PLus it is easlier to get money for BattelBots.

I like FIRST I have lived with all the task they have given us. But this one broke the camels back. I know of other teams that we help to get into this Have left FIRST. I would like to know how many teams that are not coming back. If FIRST wants to grow they have to keep the people they have.

Mike Soukup 24-10-2001 10:40

Quote:

Originally posted by nick reynolds
Lastly let me ask everyone this. Should we express our concerns and post problems that we see or should we just keep silent. Do we have the right to give opinions or are positive posts the only exceptable forms of comunications between team members.
FIRST to me is still the greatest organization that brings students and adults together.
Nick237

I disagree with most of your opinions recently, but I urge you to keep expressing them. Good discussions are healthy for FIRST; it's important to talk through our differences and hopefully together we can come up with some solutions that please (almost) everyone.

Mike

Andy Baker 24-10-2001 12:56

Quote:

Originally posted by nick reynolds
If we have no Guarantee of going to Florida then it will be impossible to get sponsors to donate large sums of funds to our team this year.
Nick237

This comment has been mentioned a few times by others.

This may be accurrate for team 237, but I know of many teams who have gotten money at the last minute in order to go to Nationals. These teams performed well at a Regional, and their sponsor decided to kick in some cash to help them get to Florida AFTER their strong showing at the Regional.

It can be done. There are sooooo many teams (Little League, AAU, etc.) who plan last minute "National Championship" trips who pull together money and sponsorships so that they get to compete with the best.

With no garantee to go to Florida, I can see why sponsors don't give the large sums needed to go to the Championships... they shouldn't have to. BUT, they should also be excited and eager to support their team financially when it does earn a spot at the Championships.

Andy B.


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