Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Glad to see you got the Xerox award at in Atlanta, Maybe they would have been more impressed with the "flame job" you did at SBPLI? :D

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

There was a television placed in front of the Einstein stage which the people on stage could watch.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Eric,
No according to FIRST a rookie is a team that is competing in their first SEASON with FIRST and the SEASON, as defined BY FIRST, starts at kickoff. SO logically it cannot stretch back to the previous April. You are a rookie in the same way baseball players are rookies... until the start of the next season. But the in between time is undefined as far as I can tell.
I agree with you it is confusing and that is part of the problem and exactly what I was trying to say. It's definitely a tough call to make and you make some very valid points that highlight that confusion.
I must also admit that this whole thing may just be Bad writing on the part of Woodie's speech writer. Perhaps only the season was considered by the judges.
I nitpick when it comes to wording. Let's just call it a bad habit.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Yeah you're a rookie ... but your previous STATs don't come with you.... You start over.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Thats understandable, but when you lose mentor support/school sponsor support, thats a whole different thing, FIRST needs to make this appealing to schoolteachers and make it worthwhile for the teachers to stay after their scheduled hours. A lot of teams fold because of funding, or a ridiculusly high percentage of their kids are graduated the previous year. or just overall support for the program has donwhill.

I wouldn't say district events nationwide. I live in Florida, where we currently only have 43 teams. I don't think a district system would work here. You just don't have the density of teams. I would rather see SuperRegionals pop up like the Greater Toronto Regional in 2006, an event with two fields where up to 128 teams can compete would be something worth attending.... even if your team doesn't qualify for championships. I'd like to hear from the teams that only went to district events (not state or championship) and get their experience compared to regional events.

I didn't mean to offend the team that won the Xerox creativity award, so please if i did offend you, im sorry

What i was trying to say was, usually when i hear the Xerox Creativity award, i usually have this "wow" type of moment, like, "did some tea really think of that crazy idea, and it really worked?", this year, it seemed like that "wow" factor wasn't there. im sure many teams thought of the gyroscope. not all of them thought it would work, thus they ditched it. you guys stuck to it and made it work for you. That deserves to be awarded. but as i said above, it just didn't bring in that "wow/gasp" factor

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I didn't get to look around at Atlanta, but what other teams would you consider having that wow factor? Personally I consider a 22 pound disk rotating at 1400rpm, or ours a 7lb disk at 5200 rpm a 'wow' device. Getting something like a control moment gyroscope to work is not only more difficult than you think, but it takes ALOT of careful building. With such a high speed and high energy device, safety is a huge concern. It's more "Wow" than a crab drive imo.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

thanks for making my point for me. there was no wow factor to begin with. FIRST gave us size limitations, specific wheels that we couldn't tamper with, and a half page checklist on BUMPERS!!! this honestly took all the creativity out of the game... you couldn't have a robot that would intentionally tip it's trailer over, you couldn't have a robot that could remove moon rocks from it's trailer, you couldn't really use omni wheels. thus, out of the smoke came four designs that succeeded.... i've seen MUCH more variety than this in previous years game..... heck, all you have to do is look back to last year or the year before and you would understand exactly what im talking about.

I'll give you the fact that they won with a gyroscope, and that's something difficult to do, what i meant was there was potential for SO MUCH MORE creativity and yet, FIRST made sure we stayed inside the box.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Poor analogy, Steve, due to having to play x games to not be a rookie in MLB (i.e., if you have to play 70 MLB games to be a non-rookie, then you can play 68, get injured, and still get Rookie of the Year the next year.) But I'll take it at face value--you're a rookie until your second season or declared otherwise.

I also have that habit, so no comment there.

And yeah, it is very confusing. Let's say that a team goes through 4 stages. It may not go through all of them, but here they are, along with an approximate timeframe:

1. Pre-rookie. Did not compete in FRC the previous year, it's their first year coming up, and the season hasn't started. For simplicity, they become rookies on Kickoff, though they have a number previously.
2. Rookie. Kickoff through Championship/other final official event of the season. Please note: EVERY year that I can remember, Dean or Woodie tells the rookies for the year that they are now veterans at some point during award ceremonies.
3. Sophomore-class. Starts right after the Rookie status ends and continues for a year or two. (Years end at Championship now.)
4. Veteran. 3+ years under their belts.

Note that it's easy to jump stages; I would count 2753 as sophomore-class after they won NJ, and a full veteran now. Most other teams their age would be sophomore-class right now.

The problem is that FIRST doesn't define exactly when a team goes between pre-rookie and rookie, effectively. They also don't use the full spread, confining themselves to 2 and 4.

If you start as a pre-rookie after it's completely impossible to get into the event, anything after you start is fair game in my book.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I think it is interesting that this forum, Lessons Learned - Negative, now has 10 pages of posts whereas Lessons Learned - Positive has three pages. I challenge everyone who has posted here to go to the Postiive forum and post there as well.

(Including me)

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Going back to the main point of this thread...

* Too much human player scoring.

* Practice field set-up could be much better.

* No match video in the pit. Some team members hardly get out of the pit. It would be nice if they could see some matches too.

* No opening ceremonies video on the DaVinci Field side of the dome. I know why it was done (to get everyone to come to the other side). However, for those teams that got up early to secure seats, team members needed to stay in the seats and could not see the opening ceremonies.

* Country flags blocking the view of spectators in the upper section to the left of Einstein (while looking at the field). We could not see the main screen at all and totally missed Dave V.'s Top 10 list.

* It would be nice to see the names/teams of the recipients of the FIRST scholarships on the big screen at all the fields.

* I know this is the pink elephant in the dome, but I thought that Dean's closing ceremony speech sucked a great deal of energy out of the dome. The message was too long and too repetitive. I understand his intent and absolutely agree with it, but the message delivery was off, in my opinion.

* Closing video was overlooked, everyone was running out to get plates so they had something to put food on at the Wrap Party. :D This was a good video and people spent lots of effort putting it together. It's a shame not many people got a chance to see it.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Eric, can you explain to me what you guys are arguing about?

I'm just confused as to what the point of establishing exactly when a team "starts" ?

I know we've been involved in the creation of dozens of FRC teams. All of them start a little differently, some get a grant and register and start a season right away.

Others gradually build up sponsors, mentors, interested students, and it may take them a year or more to finally "register".

If a team is proactive during this year or more time period, and reaches out to the community, or builds a relationship with a school, why would it not "count" towards an award? Honestly, if a "team" has been around for a while trying to get going and finally register to become an FRC team, why would what they do not count, or be considered?


Please let me know if this is what you guys are talking about or if I missed it completely.

-Brando

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

This brings me back to a discussion me, Chuck Glick, Jessi Kaestle and Brian Stempin had at the Spaghetti Warehouse after the Philadelphia Regional.
We were talking all things FIRST (as us FIRST-aholics always do) and Brian made a very interesting observation. Every one of us just brought up negative aspects about FIRST from people we've dealt with, teams we put up with and the way FIRST is run in general. Not one positive thought was said. We didn't even realize it.
As Brain pointed out that why he no longer bothers with CD because it's become a negative bitter place. I notice that FIRST in general has that element. There's an ugly undercurrent of anger and resentment in FIRST. Towards people, towards teams, towards FIRST itself and no one team is above the behavior or immune to it. We are all guilty of it. That's why I personally dislike the term Gracious Professionalism because it's being used as a measuring tool when no one has shown they have the right to pass judgment on other around here (me included). It reminds me of a term from the bible "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." We should all be dropping those stones right now.
One reason is people expect quality and therefore see no reason to compliment it but will complain bitterly when they feel wronged in any way shape or form. It's real easy to say we should check ourselves, behave better and so and so forth but complaints also change whatever flaws are out there (acting like it's not happening will not solve the problem) and if you keep what's bothering you inside it's not good for you physically and you'll just leave FIRST out of frustration anyways due to your overall dissatisfaction with the program. So not complaining is not an answer either.
I just think we need to step back and take a little perspective that's all.
Maybe everyone who has posted here should take a moment and post something in the positive thread too. There had to be something you liked about FIRST this year or else you all would have left a long time ago.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

One reason this thread may be so long is that people are posting multiple times, arguing over a particular statement. While it is easy to argue with a negative statement, arguing over a positive one is less so.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Totally agree and guilty as charged. I wanted to make sure I posted in both posts (positive and negative) with feedback. One comment on the Negative feedback, as opposed to simply listing all the negatives, be prepared to share how you would turn each negative around to make it a positive. It's easy to knock something, but much more challenging to suggest alternatives that result in lasting improvements.

Also, if you go through this thread, you will have commonality over a few key topics. If I would be working for FIRST and looking at this thread to make improvements, these common issues are those that I would target. Some of these are low-hanging fruit and others would take some time and effort to implement.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Thank you for mentioning this. I feel the exact same way. Getting a 22 minute address (yep, timed it) after three days of intense competition and little sleep completely derails the adrenaline-fueled enthusiasm of the crowd.

There has to be a better compromise between getting the message across, and remembering that Atlanta is a celebration of all of our hard work. Yes, even engineers get to celebrate.