Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

The timeout was called between the first and second finals matches. It was for a problem that occurred after the first match. It was not something that could have been addressed during any of the previous speakers. Also, you may have noticed that the robots sit on the field during the speakers, making it hard to work on them then. The field personnel were telling the team that they had to have the robot on the field immediately. Their two options at that point were to either call a timeout or to place the backup robot on the field. What would you have done? I know I sure would have called the timeout.

I agree completely with the time management problems on Einstein. However, they are not due to a team needing to call a 6 minute timeout.

FIRST should have something prepared to fill a timeout if necessary. Something besides having the DJ cue up "YMCA".

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

There was something early Friday morning too, on the video broadcast, when Dave ran thru a list. Was that the same list or a rebroadcast from another year? I'm sure it was amusing, but I guess the "people at home" will never see the photos up on the big screen.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I don't like listing just the negatives, so here are the postives too:

Positives:
1. The district system in Michigan was very nice. Though there still some improvements that need to happen in scoring (chairmans being worth 0) and time management (closing pits at 10:00PM & 8PM is insane - teams don't get to enjoy themselves and do things with other teams), we got HUGE bang for our bucks.

Negatives:
1. Judging consistency.
Crab is cool. It's also pretty old in terms of FIRST. It's time to educate the judges about standard FIRST systems so we stop seeing awards given out to teams for the same thing. It's my opinion that every team that made an effective fan this year should have won an award (and we did NOT make one).... but I saw multiple awards at every district I attended that mentioned... CRAB.... this is a personal beef but it's also a microcosm of what we see with judging around the country. With the current judging setup of volunteers, I don't know how you can fix it.

The judges need some better standards to work from. In one district, our presenters were told we needed more planning for future work. When we presented that at States, we got a very chilly reaction because we hadn't done them yet.

Oh - one final comment. Please folks, stop attributing a large part of the Michigan teams' performances to the district structure. 2 of the four teams were in the finals last year, Da Bears have multiple regional wins over the years, 68 has been incredible as well, and I think you'll see through the years that Michigan teams have always done pretty well at Nationals.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

We, Team 3020, did.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I couldnt agree more about teams winning an award for crab or swerve drivetrains. At both regionals we attended, the same team won a design award for a swerve drivetrain. I completely believe that they had a very good swerve drivetrain, and many teams iterations were not as effective but there was nothing new or unique about there rendition. I think the xerox creativity award should actually award a creative design, not a design that has been around FIRST for at least the last 5 years. I think that the judges should be better versed in what has been done previously to have a better understanding of what is truly unique.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Then I'm wrong....and congratulations on getting so much done in so little time!

We've had to work to get money at least a few months before kickoff.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Also, I think there should have been some normal regolith fields to practice on. After we programmed our gyro, we wanted to test it out, but the practice rounds were already over. We didn't want to compete in a practice round anyways, we just wanted to see it on some regolith.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

There were. If the practice fields were being run as practice rounds, then I think FIRST made the biggest mistake ever. (<G14> not excepted.)

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Yup, to test auton I had to jump on the field, reset it, risk getting hit, and piss off volunteers.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Thanks!

Well, we hopefully won't be forced to wait this long again.....it isn't something I'd like to repeat.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I agree with you here, FIRST needs to go to district events nation wide, I know team density in some states is too low like Nevada to have district events, they could have a west coast district where AZ, NV, CA, & UT can go and compete in any district event with in the four states and then have a "West Coast Championship" I think that would be really fun and is a possible solution.

-Keaton

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I doubt the district thing would work so well when it's a two day drive to many locations (like from here to the bay area, for example).

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Who said you can't drive the robot back, use the dongle to switch the robot off and on to perform auto mode? numerous teams did this.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

positioning it within the box in the correct orientation and everything just as well aligned as when youd do it on the field is no easy task

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

because the drivers cant reset the robot perfectly?

Either way, the practice field setup was stupid. The fact that teams we're playing "matches" screwed over teams trying to TEST things, which is what the field is for in my opinion. At champs, you shouldn't be playing practice matches on it.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

The Newton-Galileo practice field set-up was strange (to say the least).

On Sat morning, we were trying to fine-tune and test autonomous modes, which required us to modify code. Even though only two robots were using the field, the drill was put the robot on the practice field for several minutes, then take it off. Even though no robots were waiting to get on, we had to come off the field.

This is a training matter for FIRST to work in their "off-season".

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

FIRST could have dealt with practice a lot better. A lot of teams in our area did not have easy access to regiloth. Going back to the carpets would make it a lot easy, especially for testing code. Our team did not really know how traction control would work until we actually got to competition.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I like how they did continue holding the practice rounds, because if everything is working, then all you should be doing is practicing as much as possible. But for just testing something quickly, you could not get on the field. I wanted to test something on Friday 1 hour before the pits closed, but I couldn't because they were holding practice matches that you had to be signed up in advance for.

Practice rounds are great, but a testing field also needs to be somewhere. Something like what I saw at the Las Vegas regional would be great (maybe bigger though).

Rewriting autonomous code without regolith is pretty much impossible if you want the robot to do something other than go straight for 15 seconds.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

so the way your saying it, a team should not and can not do anything during the off season? shoot....then almost all the chairmans teams and all the teams who go do outreach and put it in their presentations are "cheaters" aka" rule breakers"

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I think what he is trying to say is that many rookie teams don't start with FTC. The ones that do already have a "season" going, and fundraising, summer, camps, and other activities are already in place and occurring from being in FTC. By joining FRC they just continued with what they were doing, and won the Rookie-All Star Award largely because of it. They may be rookie in FRC, but their activities aren't. (I don't know if that is true, but I think that is what he's trying to say.)

Now, I don't know when Rookie teams have to be registered by so they can get a KoP, but I know that even the sponsors and teachers who organized our team didn't know about doing this until late 2008. And at that point it was merely a thought in the back of their minds.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Next year, it would be nice if the fields were more towards the middle of the domebecause in the stands, it was hard to scout some robots because of all the teams infront of us.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

ok, i understand that that has a large part, but thats only if FIRST ran all 3 competition together, which they don't. Each are their own identity, with their own rules and judges. If a baseball player plays in the minors, then he comes up to the majors.....is he not a rookie in the majors?

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Please inform me of how a Gyroscope is anything that you normally see on an FRC robot. From my understanding and observations I have seen very very few robots that incorporated a Gyroscope into their robot's design.None in the past, and a select few this year. I would love to know how it is a copy of anything previously done in this competition.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I agree that a gyroscope was pretty innovative. We threw around the idea early on but quickly moved on thinking it wouldnt be worth it. I still don't know if it was a worthwhile venture but it was very cool to see.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

There are two types of gyroscopes...the sensor that comes in the KoP, and the type of heavy spinning disk that a few teams put on their robot.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

agreed, i personally really wanted all sorts of sensors and shinnanigans, but with a rookie programmer, and me as the only EMO (engineering mentor...and im not even an engineer...just a lonely college student.) with NO programming skills....(i do know java....kinda). I decided it was way too much for us to finish.

I mean, barely got our robot shipped!

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Very true. Ironically we used a gyroscope sensor on the Gyroscope (flywheel)

So let me rephrase what i said before:

"Please inform me of how a Gyroscope flywheel is anything that you normally see on an FRC robot. From my understanding and observations I have seen very very few robots that incorporated a Gyroscope flywheel into their robot's design.None in the past, and a select few this year. I would love to know how it is a copy of anything previously done in this competition."

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

/Agree

We were the other team, 3020, who had a Control Moment Gyroscope on our robot. Now, it wasn't 22 pounds and it couldn't flip the robot 180 degrees, but it did affect steering. The award was well deserved if the team had a gyro. Unfortunately one of our team members spoke to a judge about the gyroscope on ours, and had no idea how it worked so he decided to throw BS out, which sounds like how they determined who got the award. I'm glad that 263 go it though, and not a team with a less innovative device.

Now, if I remember correctly, 1717 got an award for crab drive. Correct me if I'm wrong though. I will admit, I'm a fan of 1717, and their crab drive was working beautifully.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Wow you certainly have a chip on your shoulder! What I am saying is that the judges used improper criteria FOR THE ROOKIE AWARD... I never said anything about veteran teams and chairman's awards, but you seem determined to make me an evil person by trying to twist my meaning.
The discussion has centered around WHEN are you considered a rookie team. FIRST seems to define that as the start of the season and that was Jan 3rd, of this year. SO that would imply that they should consider the rookie season activities starting on Jan 3rd in determining this award. And may I point out... 3091 WAS helping FLL/FTC during that time so little has changed as far as that goes.
I never said anything about cheating OR that team 3091 did not deserve the award.. but that the reasons cited by Woodie, activities over the summer, were inappropriate for a rookie award. If anything, this was a disservice by whoever wrote the speech, to team 3091.
I think you need to read carefully before you comment. I recognize that this is a touchy subject but I believe FIRST needs to clarify all this rookie stuff.... there were 30+ other rookie teams at Atlanta, some of whom had just managed to convince their schools to back them and did a fantastic job of promoting FIRST in other ways. I don't believe it was fair to them to have an unknown bar set that forced them to be retroactive to include their previous year's activities to a time they may not have even known they would field a team.
But hey this is just my opinion. I can't change the ruling nor would I want to. I DO believe I have a valid point that should be addressed for future consideration. ( I personally wanted to see team 3020 win it... that gyro was awesome!)

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

[quote=EricH;852427]There were. If the practice fields were being run as practice rounds, then I think FIRST made the biggest mistake ever. (<G14> not excepted.)[/QUOTE

FIRST tried something new this year, wireless control of the robots on the practice field. In years past robots were required to be tethered.

The wireless operations required having set practiced rounds, and safety required not having people on the field while the robots were moving....It does not require a lot of thought to realize that you don't want people to get hit by a 130lb robot going full speed down the field. I don't know about you, but it is not worth getting hit, to make an adjustment. To get a prospective on how dangerous the practice fields were, more trailers were damaged on the 2 practice fields, than were damaged in competition on all 5 fields.

I for one, because of all the comments made here, and comments, abuse, and the non-GP treatment that was given practice field volunteers, am going to recommend that FIRST goes back to the all robots must be tethered while on the practice field.

Please remember the volunteers were running the fields as they were instructed. Ask yourself.....Did you treat those volunteers as you would have liked to be treated? I witnessed on more than one occasion mentors verbally abusing the volunteers running the fields. This should be unacceptable to all of us. Instead of criticizing the volunteers you should be thanking them!

To illustrate some of the non-GP actions....While repairing one of the trailers on the Curie/Archimedes practice field I set down a wrench, & a socket wrench (My own tools.) on the sign up table. A volunteer was dealing with a mentor, and need my help to answer a question. Turned around to pick them up less than a minute later, and they were gone.

I hope that all of you who found time to criticize how the practice fields were run, will find time to volunteer at a practice field next year.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I don't think people are complaining about how they were run by volunteers. We are talking about not having a field were we could just test stuff on the regolith without having to sign up for a match. We know it isn't the volunteers fault....it was the organization by FIRST. Not having a regolith surface available for testing like at regionals was a big mistake.

I brought a 100 foot ethernet cable because i thought there would be a practice area where they would be required to be tethered.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Something interesting I noticed about the Chairman's Award winners (Congratulations 236 TechnoTicks!); do they get any view of the field? It looks like it is near impossible to see the action where they were currently situated. In my opinion, it would be unfair to place the team where they could not see the field. I mean, personally, I think the robots are an awesome part of FIRST.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I guess one of the problems was that the teams didn't know that ahead of time....

Maybe there could be one wireless practice field, and one tethered? As long as it's described ahead of time, I think teams could adapt.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

2002 comes to mind. Playing pieces were soccer balls. 3 trailers started in the center of the field and were approx 180lbs (empty). Most teams chose to either tow or clamp to the trailers. Others chose to harvest balls and then dump into the trailer.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Gary, I wasn't even AT the Championships this year. In the past and at the regionals, it's been, bring a tether and join the line/get a block of time. It shouldn't require a lot of thought to realize that teams might want the regional practice field setup, not a setup that is Thursday every day when something just needs a minor software tweak and repeatability testing. That's what I'm calling a mistake.

Steve, when does FIRST change your status from "rookie" to veteran? Right after the Championship, right, at least officially? I.e., at the end of the season? So, logically, the year begins in late April. Therefore, summer counts.

But when does the "rookie" status begin? That is a tough question. When you sign up as an FRC team? Then you have a wide spread of time for rookies to get something going. When registration opens, all teams that haven't competed before are rookies? That would be more fair, but then you have a gap of several months with no rookies, only "pre-rookies". Right after Championship, when the previous rookies are now veterans (sophomore-type)? That makes more sense, but they're still "pre-rookies" all through the summer.

It's a tough call, and not one I'd want to make.

Brian, the trailers weren't assigned to an individual team and were also scored on when no robot was attached. They were neutral; the only time they counted was in a given zone. I'm not quite sure that counts.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Glad to see you got the Xerox award at in Atlanta, Maybe they would have been more impressed with the "flame job" you did at SBPLI? :D

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

There was a television placed in front of the Einstein stage which the people on stage could watch.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Eric,
No according to FIRST a rookie is a team that is competing in their first SEASON with FIRST and the SEASON, as defined BY FIRST, starts at kickoff. SO logically it cannot stretch back to the previous April. You are a rookie in the same way baseball players are rookies... until the start of the next season. But the in between time is undefined as far as I can tell.
I agree with you it is confusing and that is part of the problem and exactly what I was trying to say. It's definitely a tough call to make and you make some very valid points that highlight that confusion.
I must also admit that this whole thing may just be Bad writing on the part of Woodie's speech writer. Perhaps only the season was considered by the judges.
I nitpick when it comes to wording. Let's just call it a bad habit.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Yeah you're a rookie ... but your previous STATs don't come with you.... You start over.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Thats understandable, but when you lose mentor support/school sponsor support, thats a whole different thing, FIRST needs to make this appealing to schoolteachers and make it worthwhile for the teachers to stay after their scheduled hours. A lot of teams fold because of funding, or a ridiculusly high percentage of their kids are graduated the previous year. or just overall support for the program has donwhill.

I wouldn't say district events nationwide. I live in Florida, where we currently only have 43 teams. I don't think a district system would work here. You just don't have the density of teams. I would rather see SuperRegionals pop up like the Greater Toronto Regional in 2006, an event with two fields where up to 128 teams can compete would be something worth attending.... even if your team doesn't qualify for championships. I'd like to hear from the teams that only went to district events (not state or championship) and get their experience compared to regional events.

I didn't mean to offend the team that won the Xerox creativity award, so please if i did offend you, im sorry

What i was trying to say was, usually when i hear the Xerox Creativity award, i usually have this "wow" type of moment, like, "did some tea really think of that crazy idea, and it really worked?", this year, it seemed like that "wow" factor wasn't there. im sure many teams thought of the gyroscope. not all of them thought it would work, thus they ditched it. you guys stuck to it and made it work for you. That deserves to be awarded. but as i said above, it just didn't bring in that "wow/gasp" factor

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I didn't get to look around at Atlanta, but what other teams would you consider having that wow factor? Personally I consider a 22 pound disk rotating at 1400rpm, or ours a 7lb disk at 5200 rpm a 'wow' device. Getting something like a control moment gyroscope to work is not only more difficult than you think, but it takes ALOT of careful building. With such a high speed and high energy device, safety is a huge concern. It's more "Wow" than a crab drive imo.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

thanks for making my point for me. there was no wow factor to begin with. FIRST gave us size limitations, specific wheels that we couldn't tamper with, and a half page checklist on BUMPERS!!! this honestly took all the creativity out of the game... you couldn't have a robot that would intentionally tip it's trailer over, you couldn't have a robot that could remove moon rocks from it's trailer, you couldn't really use omni wheels. thus, out of the smoke came four designs that succeeded.... i've seen MUCH more variety than this in previous years game..... heck, all you have to do is look back to last year or the year before and you would understand exactly what im talking about.

I'll give you the fact that they won with a gyroscope, and that's something difficult to do, what i meant was there was potential for SO MUCH MORE creativity and yet, FIRST made sure we stayed inside the box.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Poor analogy, Steve, due to having to play x games to not be a rookie in MLB (i.e., if you have to play 70 MLB games to be a non-rookie, then you can play 68, get injured, and still get Rookie of the Year the next year.) But I'll take it at face value--you're a rookie until your second season or declared otherwise.

I also have that habit, so no comment there.

And yeah, it is very confusing. Let's say that a team goes through 4 stages. It may not go through all of them, but here they are, along with an approximate timeframe:

1. Pre-rookie. Did not compete in FRC the previous year, it's their first year coming up, and the season hasn't started. For simplicity, they become rookies on Kickoff, though they have a number previously.
2. Rookie. Kickoff through Championship/other final official event of the season. Please note: EVERY year that I can remember, Dean or Woodie tells the rookies for the year that they are now veterans at some point during award ceremonies.
3. Sophomore-class. Starts right after the Rookie status ends and continues for a year or two. (Years end at Championship now.)
4. Veteran. 3+ years under their belts.

Note that it's easy to jump stages; I would count 2753 as sophomore-class after they won NJ, and a full veteran now. Most other teams their age would be sophomore-class right now.

The problem is that FIRST doesn't define exactly when a team goes between pre-rookie and rookie, effectively. They also don't use the full spread, confining themselves to 2 and 4.

If you start as a pre-rookie after it's completely impossible to get into the event, anything after you start is fair game in my book.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I think it is interesting that this forum, Lessons Learned - Negative, now has 10 pages of posts whereas Lessons Learned - Positive has three pages. I challenge everyone who has posted here to go to the Postiive forum and post there as well.

(Including me)

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Going back to the main point of this thread...

* Too much human player scoring.

* Practice field set-up could be much better.

* No match video in the pit. Some team members hardly get out of the pit. It would be nice if they could see some matches too.

* No opening ceremonies video on the DaVinci Field side of the dome. I know why it was done (to get everyone to come to the other side). However, for those teams that got up early to secure seats, team members needed to stay in the seats and could not see the opening ceremonies.

* Country flags blocking the view of spectators in the upper section to the left of Einstein (while looking at the field). We could not see the main screen at all and totally missed Dave V.'s Top 10 list.

* It would be nice to see the names/teams of the recipients of the FIRST scholarships on the big screen at all the fields.

* I know this is the pink elephant in the dome, but I thought that Dean's closing ceremony speech sucked a great deal of energy out of the dome. The message was too long and too repetitive. I understand his intent and absolutely agree with it, but the message delivery was off, in my opinion.

* Closing video was overlooked, everyone was running out to get plates so they had something to put food on at the Wrap Party. :D This was a good video and people spent lots of effort putting it together. It's a shame not many people got a chance to see it.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Eric, can you explain to me what you guys are arguing about?

I'm just confused as to what the point of establishing exactly when a team "starts" ?

I know we've been involved in the creation of dozens of FRC teams. All of them start a little differently, some get a grant and register and start a season right away.

Others gradually build up sponsors, mentors, interested students, and it may take them a year or more to finally "register".

If a team is proactive during this year or more time period, and reaches out to the community, or builds a relationship with a school, why would it not "count" towards an award? Honestly, if a "team" has been around for a while trying to get going and finally register to become an FRC team, why would what they do not count, or be considered?


Please let me know if this is what you guys are talking about or if I missed it completely.

-Brando

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

This brings me back to a discussion me, Chuck Glick, Jessi Kaestle and Brian Stempin had at the Spaghetti Warehouse after the Philadelphia Regional.
We were talking all things FIRST (as us FIRST-aholics always do) and Brian made a very interesting observation. Every one of us just brought up negative aspects about FIRST from people we've dealt with, teams we put up with and the way FIRST is run in general. Not one positive thought was said. We didn't even realize it.
As Brain pointed out that why he no longer bothers with CD because it's become a negative bitter place. I notice that FIRST in general has that element. There's an ugly undercurrent of anger and resentment in FIRST. Towards people, towards teams, towards FIRST itself and no one team is above the behavior or immune to it. We are all guilty of it. That's why I personally dislike the term Gracious Professionalism because it's being used as a measuring tool when no one has shown they have the right to pass judgment on other around here (me included). It reminds me of a term from the bible "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." We should all be dropping those stones right now.
One reason is people expect quality and therefore see no reason to compliment it but will complain bitterly when they feel wronged in any way shape or form. It's real easy to say we should check ourselves, behave better and so and so forth but complaints also change whatever flaws are out there (acting like it's not happening will not solve the problem) and if you keep what's bothering you inside it's not good for you physically and you'll just leave FIRST out of frustration anyways due to your overall dissatisfaction with the program. So not complaining is not an answer either.
I just think we need to step back and take a little perspective that's all.
Maybe everyone who has posted here should take a moment and post something in the positive thread too. There had to be something you liked about FIRST this year or else you all would have left a long time ago.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

One reason this thread may be so long is that people are posting multiple times, arguing over a particular statement. While it is easy to argue with a negative statement, arguing over a positive one is less so.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Totally agree and guilty as charged. I wanted to make sure I posted in both posts (positive and negative) with feedback. One comment on the Negative feedback, as opposed to simply listing all the negatives, be prepared to share how you would turn each negative around to make it a positive. It's easy to knock something, but much more challenging to suggest alternatives that result in lasting improvements.

Also, if you go through this thread, you will have commonality over a few key topics. If I would be working for FIRST and looking at this thread to make improvements, these common issues are those that I would target. Some of these are low-hanging fruit and others would take some time and effort to implement.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Thank you for mentioning this. I feel the exact same way. Getting a 22 minute address (yep, timed it) after three days of intense competition and little sleep completely derails the adrenaline-fueled enthusiasm of the crowd.

There has to be a better compromise between getting the message across, and remembering that Atlanta is a celebration of all of our hard work. Yes, even engineers get to celebrate.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I've given up hope of this getting fixed because every year it's brought up it seems the response is "Oh you guys don't like the speeches? OK we'll do more!":rolleyes:

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

The plight of the engineer is that he is never satisfied with what is, and he is always thinking of what could be. He applies this to his work, and also to other aspects of his life. But where metal, wires, and electrons don't complain when perfection is demanded of them, people do.

This is unfortunately a distinction that not all engineers can recognize, and I think it's at least one of the factors at play here.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Brandon,
I'm not arguing with Eric, he has made quite a few points that have made me think about what I've been saying so I'd say we are discussing or perhaps, at worse, debating... (oops... that thing I have about wording again! Could be a programming thing... you have to get the syntax right or else.)
In the presentation of the All Star Rookie Award, Woodie mentioned 3091's fantastic work in supporting FLL and FTC over the summer. My point is that they were not yet a rookie team and that that work should place them in contention for a judges award. Not that they don't deserve the rookie award too but that Woodie cited the wrong criteria for the award. So the question was at what point in time do you become a rookie and shouldn't it be that time frame that counts towards a rookie award?
FIRST defines the season as starting at kickoff. If Woodie had cited 3091's work over the last 3 months I would never have mentioned this. Clearly, FIRST can define it anyway they want to, but they probably should tell someone.
Bottom line for me is that I think FIRST need to clearly define this period or Woodie needs to get a better speech writer.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Lincoln's Gettysburg Address was three minutes long.

And yet is has become one of the most memorable speeches of all time.

There's no reason why Dean can't do the same.

Or at the very least, talk at a faster amount of words per minute.

// On a side note, most of the students on our team started to fall asleep during Dean's speech (and judging from the amount of head bobs in the audience, so were most other teams). So I decided to wake them up by softly playing a theme song for Dean's speech from my iPod. As he went on about the three little pigs and brick houses, Brick House by the Commodores seemed the obvious choice. It worked, and they stayed awake for the rest of the speech.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I disagree with your argument. Why should when the support of this team was given, matter in the giving of an award? Teams are not judged on chairman's awards and etc from just the previous year.

The argument I was trying to make in my earlier post was that some teams take a considerable amount of time to come to fruition. They are a team, maybe just without a team number yet, or without a sponsor yet, but theyre still a team. If they are reaching out and supporting the community before they have even competed, that stuff should definitely count....regardless of when it was, summer, winter, months, or even years before they became a "team".

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Issues I had this year:

1) Dear FIRST can you please post the order by which teams were picked on the website so someone who didnt attend the event can figure out how picking went. Which of these is the correct order and how am I supposed to know, 1279 834 1391, 1391 1279 834, 1391 834 1279, or 834 1279 1391. I remember in 05 and 06 the location of teams in driver stations didn't change during eliminations, I would love to see this return.

2) Please don't ever again have a rule like G14 that punishes a team for winning matches. When stopping scoring and instead scoring on yourself is a valid and legitimate strategy i think you have a problem.

3) I would like to see webcasts being broadcast from event to event, so no matter where you were there would be some place in the event that is playing other events.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

We are living in a time that is a result of nations, cultures, and leaders building houses of straw and sticks. It takes a little more time to build a house of brick.

Agreed that the competition energy is a completely different energy than the focus that is required to pay attention to the speeches. It makes it difficult following the end of a long 3 days but the time spent is no less valuable. This is one of those, there are no easy answers or solutions, aspects of celebrating the culmination of a great FIRST season.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

This is more of a lesson I learned personally while I was in Atlanta. Definitely shouldn't try to take on multiple jobs for your team. I ended up being in charge of photography and scouting in Atlanta, and spent WAY more time than I would have liked just running around trying to get stuff done. Plus, when you can't sit with your scouts because you're on the field with the drive team, it's hard to actually get scouting done. I noticed that the scout sheets never returned....

With the number of people on my team doing nothing, there's not really a good reason for me having had to cover both and do a mediocre job instead of delegating someone else for one of those jobs and letting both of us do well. But I guess this is what rookie years are for, eh?

I also learned from some of the other guys that you really shouldn't care so much about how you're doing in the matches. If you're winning, that's great, but I saw a lot of guys on my team really upset about our losses when we knew going out there that we weren't really even a dominant force at regionals, and that we would do worse when the average ability of the rest of the competition jumps up a couple notches.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

This is a big one for me. Our team was on Archimedes this year, and elected to stay in our seats for opening ceremonies, to ensure we would be able to keep them. There was no audio or video being broadcast to our side of dome. Our team was actually completely unaware that we had won the website award. I found out from a congratulations email that was sent to me on my Blackberry by someone who was watching at home!

This is a huge pet peeve of mine. For the purposes of accurate record keeping, please list the alliances in the order that they were picked.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I agree. They should either go with what Jack said and set an order and keep it through all the eliminations or at least have the way the teams are arranged in the first match follow some set order.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

To go along with this...I find it weird that for eliminations, in the first match, the #1 bot on the alliance (aka the captain) starts in the #2 driver station....it just seems odd to me.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I don't think Dean plans to do 22 minute speeches. I was reading some article the other day where someone close to him joked that if you asked him the time, he'd go on a 10 minute explanation of the theory of relativity first. I think it's just in his nature to keep going on and on.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I guess this is just about as good of thread to place this. Kind of goes under category of a list of thing that need improvement.

I was the Field Supervisor for the Archimedes Division this year. After helping move 85 robots on and off the field I have the following suggestions.

FIRST should make gloves mandatory. This is a requirement that’s time is past due.
FIRST should make lifting handles mandatory on all robots. I saw several robots that were lifted at awkward and un-balanced locations.
FIRST should make all robots have a mandatory decal or sign pointing to the location of the main power switch.

I really enjoyed working with the teams on Archimedes this year. You guys were awesome.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Was it just me, or did it seem like Woodie and Dean's speeches contradicted each other? Woodie's theme was to keep FRC strong, keep the current teams from folding and to expand FTC if possible. His was very realistic and probably was the best speech I've heard from him in quite some time. It was quite a sobering speech that really made me think about FIRST's current position in this economy.

Then on Saturday, Dean came out and said that FIRST needs to expand faster than ever because it's the only way to truly fix our current situation.

I just thought that their messages should have aligned more and I think Dean's speech sort of took away from what Woodie said on Friday.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I guess I am a little weary of expanding FIRST too rapidly. It is already increasingly difficult to raise money and find sponsors, and adding more and more teams per area will saturate the area and decrease the amount of funding per team.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Ryan:

I agree that the main messages in the speeches were contradictory.

-j-

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

On the other hand, reaching a "critical mass" of teams in an area can make it possible to adopt a FiM-style district system and decrease the amount of money necessary to run a team.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I could write 10 pages about all the things I didn't like about this year.

Reading this thread, I realized the biggest negative is all the people who are just a bunch of whiners.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Oh Cory, stop whining....

But really, most of the actual issues with FIRST this year are being overlooked in this thread, and people are complaining about really stupid stuff. On top of that, complaining here will accomplish nothing, do you think the FIRST board of directors looks on CD for these threads?

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

You California guys are funny!

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

My vote to those is NO and NO
bumpers were one of the last things done for "safety" and see what they've become?

Requiring gloves is completely unnecessary as is mandatory handles, if a team wants the convenience of handles leave them to build them in themselves. (233 did this year)

Gloves, if someone is personally worried about their hands let them get a pair of gloves, dont mandate that they use them.

I myself have never worn gloves at a robotics competition and also have never seen reason too

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I've always been taught that using gloves is more dangerous around any kind of machinery. You put your hand near a spinning wheel and you'll probably hit it and scrape your finger or some other minimal damage. Do the same with a pair of gloves on and the glove could get sucked into whatever is spinning. You lose a sense of touch that could be the difference between cutting your finger and losing your finger.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

*cough* VRC * cough * FTC * cough *

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

"It's easier to criticize than to create!"

To be fair, a significant number of posts were responses to criticisms. I do agree with Cory, though: There's too much whining with not enough suggestions for improvements!

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

10-yard penalty for being incomplete. What ARE the actual issues?

The Board may not, but FIRST staffers sure do -- at least some of the time.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

It sounded like Woodie was getting us ready for some changes down the line.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Go watch the season-introduction video for FTC. What Woodie said was really surprising. As a voice-over to a video of FRC teams working on their robots, Woodie says, "FIRST is a microcosm of a real engineering experience because it's a problem too big, in a time too short, with a budget too small, and, in fact, a team too large." The video ends Woodie's segment without a strong conclusion, but it sounded (to me anyway) like Woodie was gently criticizing the FRC model. What was missing was Woodie saying, "and because of this, FIRST is going to do <something>" Since this was a video promoting FTC, the conclusion hanging in air is "FTC addresses these concerns." Or not. I wish Woodie had finished the thought.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

It sounds to me like a complete thought, as is.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Unless you're 2970.

Obviously it's not an ideal or even remotely sensible approach to running a team, but stranger things have happened. It's more important than ever now to fundraise early and often.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Well, I have nothing against 3091. But they did have FTC and FLL experience from what I have read. Summer camps or not, they have robotics experience. It might not be FRC experience, but FTC isn't something simple. In my opinion, if a team has experience in robotics, that needs to be put in consideration, or maybe a separate award.

Compare 3091 or 2753 with us, 3020. We have never touched a robot before this year. But from what I have read, both 3091 and 2753 have, and 2753 has been champions in FTC. Rookie to FRC yes, Rookie to robotics, not in the slightest.

I think FIRST needs to take a closer look at things like these.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Well after reading through all the posts and contributing a couple that were a bit OT I have to say this.

- FIRST is NOT perfect.

- LIFE is NOT fair.

- Luck *good or bad* and opportunity will always affect what happens to teams.

After being involved with different aspects of FIRST for 10 years I will admit there are some flaws, in fact I would be amazed if there weren’t. But, as in other aspects of life there will always be flaws.

My advice to you is something I have been preaching as a mentor for many years;

Get over it! Learn from your experience. Adjust, adapt and overcome as you participate in FIRST (and Life).

If you don’t like the way an event is run – volunteer so you can help make changes. If you don’t like the way things are in your community then get involved and make an effort to change things for the better.

Most of all don’t expect things to be perfect. If you do you will always be disappointed and that’s not a great way to go through life.




**phew** thanks for letting me vent a bit.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Don't trust an school lacking trustworthiness at maintaining a team.

Don't expect a bad school to co-operate with a team.

Did I mention that we had issues with the school?

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Woodie has used that statement many times, and it is a true statement of engineering programs in general, that is why he uses it. I have never been asked to manage a program where i felt i had all of the information i needed, all of the time i needed, or all of the skilled resources i needed, or all of the funding i needed.

If i think about it, the addition of the "in fact, a team too large" does make some sense. It is difficult to get the right resources, and sometime you have to many people "helping" to be effective.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

In the context of Continuous Improvement (or if I were King):
1. Match Screen in the pits at Atlanta: Make team numbers white on the red and blue backgrounds, not black. I was in Curie and we could not read the team numbers due to lack of contrast.

2. Scoreboard at field: Team numbers (in green background) are way too small to read. Make them bigger---plenty of white space available. Same with match numbers. (Hey, some of us are getting older every year)

3. At Pit admin. all competitions: Have a white board for teams to list need for help. Example: 217 needs Alum rod 3/8" X 10" or 217 needs wiring help or robot too heavy. Our team (217) members and most others are always happy to help other teams, but we need a central point to post needs.

4. At Pit Admin: Another board for teams to list tools they have and are willing to share. Our team would list: Lathe, Mill, Arbor Press, Sheet Metal Brake (small) etc. Then when the need arises, one would only have to go to Admin. to see who has taps and dies or pop rivets, or a bandsaw. What is usually shear panic would turn into just a short walk to borrow a tool. We can't all bring everything, but you know it is all there, somewhere.

5. Creativity: Have each team submit things or designs on their robot that they think are unique, maybe at check-in or before. Then the judges would have things to look for and could decide in advance if it has merit. Maybe this year traction control was creative, but how was it done?

6. Mentioned before and I agree that people in the pits want to watch the matches. Even a few TVs placed around would help.

7. Post the rules: If we are trying to get the public to come see the competition, we need to help them when they get there. Have a place at all Regionals and the Championship where a beginner could go to get a copy of the basics of the game (condensed to a small piece of paper). Have this place staffed with volunteer student team members to answer questions. Those students would have a complete set of rules, be knowledgeable, and be FIRST team members so they should be able answer most questions, and more importantly express their enthusiasm.

As someone above said: Engineers always see how to make it better. These are just starters, I know you can improve on them and add more.

Bill Baedke, Team 217, Thunderchickens mentor

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Brandon, you miss the point. FIRST defined what a rookie team is and what the award entails. FIRST is free to define it anyway they see fit. But as it is at this snapshot in time, I see a contradiction in the very definitions FIRST has given.
FIRST defines the rookie season time frame and I think they need to be as specific as they are with the time frame of the build season.
It is the time frame that seemed a bit unfair. There was no "level" playing field for a team that may have just managed to convince their school board to allow a team at the beginning of the school year and so missed the opportunity to work on the All Star Rookie award the previous summer. If they have no chance ... FIRST shouldn't allow them to believe they do.

I think 3091 might have won without the summer having been taken into consideration. They DO fantastic work and I have nothing but praise for that work. Perhaps the summer was NOT taken into consideration by the judges and Woodie misspoke. It wouldn't be the first time.
It doesn't really matter... the award has been given and that's that.
FIRST is a really great organization... but even FIRST needs to be watched and called to task occasionally for inconsistencies.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Depending on a team's circumstances, I would often recommend a team compete in FTC for a year before FRC. Obviously, if you already have students/mentors with FRC experience, or far too many students for a FTC team, or a major sponsor (like Boeing for 3020) by all means jump right into FRC. In most other cases, I think a team would benefit greatly from some FTC experience, and be prepared for their rookie year of FRC. After the FRC team is started, the FTC team can be kept as sort of a junior varsity (we have an FTC team for the freshmen on our team).

Over my years of helping teams and inspecting, I have met many rookies teams with only a few students, 1 mentor and no money for anything other than the kit. They just dont have the manpower or resources to compete in FRC, and it can be discouraging for the students. However, they are well suited to FTC. While competing in FTC, they can recruit more students, mentors and sponsors. I worked with a rookie team last year that decided to compete in FTC this year. Although I am sure they had a good experience overall in FRC, they probably would have had a better experience in FTC.

My point is that we should be encouraging the FTC to FRC transition and FTC as a way to prepare for FRC. It shouldn't disqualify them from awards. FRC is different enough from FTC that it is still a major step. If your team wants to go directly into FRC more power to you, but their is nothing wrong with an FRC rookie competing in FTC previously. FIRST doesn't really tell you how to run your team and the rules to determine a rookie status are pretty much based on FRC experience not FTC, FLL, Vex, Botball, etc... FIRST doesn't want to make things to be more difficult than necessary for rookie teams.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

It isn't FIRST's job to make this appealing enough to school teachers. It is the job of teams to communicate the value of FIRST programs to policy makers including the general public that this is an important program.

Teams should help policy makers and educators learn how to embrace FIRST programs as a critical co-cirricular activity that reinforces classroom learning. Far too often the educational establishment view robotics as a "club' and not as a serious adjunct to learning.

At this past Championship the message was clearly stated. Corporations, Foundations, students and volunteers have donated an enormous sum of money and effort to promote STEM education. This group has voted with their time and money. This vote serves as a clear statement of dissatisfaction of the methods of how STEM education is currently taught.

Institutions do not like to be told they are wrong. They have to go through the Kubla-Ross stages of grief as they process this information. If FIRST'ers persist these institutions will eventually get the message and you will be able to ask them to build into their structures proper teacher stipends and other support resources.

Transforming the public culture and attitudes, including the institutional attitude is precisely the goal of FIRST.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I respectfully would like to point out to you that the way 2753 and 3091 started their FRC teams is exactly what FIRST intended and is what is expected of new rookies. Do NOT criticize these teams for taking the leap into FRC correctly or take away from their accomplishments, as a mentor I would really expect to hear better than complaints of awards. Students like me are the ones who complain about awards.

Frailty in rookie FRC teams is common but is avoidable when the team is initiated properly. Big name PA and NJ teams have been with 2753 every step of the way, and we can vouch for them in saying that they have built a strong foundation by themselves AS A HOMESCHOOLED TEAM. When they needed help from anyone, THEY ASKED.

Do not downplay the accomplishments of these teams because they started out the way FIRST intended them to start out, through FTC and FLL.

The best lesson learned for team who feel 2753 or other successful rookie teams this year had the upper hand: Learn how to have the upper hand. There is always a way, just find it.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I'm sorry to see you failed to understand that I am not downplaying the award(s) they won, or their achievements.

I have not see anything, anywhere, of how a team should start in FIRST. If it should be that way, then it should be a requirement to start in FTC or FLL.

Once again, I will state that FIRST needs to look into something here. We are not the only school who has started out in FRC and not FTC or FLL. I did not set our team up, our sponsor rep did. We didn't even know what FRC was. All I am trying to say is that there are two different types of rookies in FRC. Rookies with prior robot experience in FTC and FLL, and complete newbies to the entire field of robotics. I think that is a fair statement, and not one which criticizes any teams that do have prior experience. It isn't their problem, it's something FIRST should look into.

I apologize that my post sounded like I am criticizing these teams. I found the facts about their history, and I applaud them for it. It is a deal with how FIRST is handling it, not them.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Burt,

Just like in the real world, there will never be a level playing field in FIRST. Some teams will enter as rookies with FRC-experienced mentors and generous sponsors, others will enter with a teacher, a few students and a NASA grant. There are veteran teams with an army of engineering mentors, full machine shops with seemingly limitless resources and there are student-run teams who struggle just to compete in one regional. That's just how it is.

FIRST can only do so much to make the program reasonably equitable for such diversity in their constituency. The KOP, robot rules, short build season, cost restrictions, and a new alliance-based game each year are there to avoid total domination by a small number of veteran teams. Yes, there are a few teams that are top competitors year-in and year-out. Many teams look at those powerhouse teams as role models. Those same powerhouse teams will do almost anything to help fellow competitors to succeed. Learn about the Techno-Kats, ThunderChickens, Bomb Squad, MOE, and so many other top-notch FIRST teams. They are willing to share their knowledge (i.e. you can get team handbooks by searching CD media).

Successful teams set goals for improving each year. If the focus remains on inspiring as many students as you can reach, your doing the right thing and will be a winner in everyone's book. The awards may or may not come...but the real trophies are the students.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

My team could just become a little more organized at the beginning of next season.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I cant say there were too many intricacies... there was 1 goal. put balls into a trailer.

FIRST, please take this back to 2004 with multiple things happening at once. I understand the idea of leveling the playing field for rookies and making them competitive with everyone, and I agree with it. But look at a complex game such as 2004. and rookie could have gathered balls effectively and score them.

These 1 dimensional games are getting kinda old for me atleast. And I mean 1 dimensional in scoring (yes I understand the super cell).
2005 - place tetras on goals, 2006 - throw balls into a goal (fun but 1 dimensional), 2007 - put ringers on a rack, 2008, throw a ball over a rack (one of the most boring games ever to watch)
But in 2004 you had the bar, the balls, and the 2x ball. that year the beast was able to do everything and win, but other younger teams like us (alumni 1002) did just fine only doing one task, the bar...

It makes it a lot more fun to watch and more fun to play. Lets be real. how much fun was it to watch 6 robots collide in the center of the field and roam around slowly. this is not a shot at the GDC, a close mentor of mine is on it (Jeremy Roberts). that is just my opinion. But

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

(Emphasis mine)
http://usfirst.org/what/FTC/content.aspx?id=382

I did not mean to call you out either and I apologize if I misinterpreted your post.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I beg to disagree. Most of these games weren't entirely one dimensional, and I'd say 2007 definitely had two dimensions.

2005- Stack tetras on top of goals or place tetras under goals
2006- Shoot balls through upper goal or deposit them through lower goal
2007- Place Ringers or lift robots. (This game was definitely not one dimensional
2008- Hurdle Trackball over overpass or Herd Trackball under overpass or race around the track
2009- Put balls in Goal

Granted, in 2005 good teams all stacked. In 2006 though, 195 and 1902 rose to fame playing exclusively with the lower goal. Other teams may have too, but my memory is starting to fail me. 2007 definitely was not one dimensional, as those bonus points for lifting robots were important, and lifting robots was not an easy task. 2008, most good robots did hurdle. However, at GSR a herder (58) captained an alliance all the way to the finals, and 148 played an integral role in the RoboSimChickens Championship victory. This year, we all did the same thing though.

That said, I'd love to play another 2004-esque game. :D
(It seems FIRST Frenzy is quickly acquiring some sort of cult status as a magical perfect game around here...)

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I think 1902 started in 2006.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Can we end this debate over what a rookie can do? Please read the rules on rookie criteria: http://www.usfirst.org/community/frc...t.aspx?id=6632

It only says what makes a rookie. It says nothing about what a rookie season is. The only time it references "season" is when it is talking about returning teams - if they have not competed in three previous seasons, they may regain their rookie status. The rules defining rookie status do not care if you've competed in other robot competitions, either inside or outside the FIRST umbrella. You could have done FLL, RoboFest, VEX, any number of things. As long as you have not competed in FRC before, you are a rookie. (There are additional rules for teams that have some members with previous experience in FRC.)

In the awards descriptions at http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...0%20Awards.pdf it says It says the same thing in the manual: Nothing about seasons there.

When FIRST talks about the season starting at kickoff, they are usually talking about the build season. The build season is defined and has lots of rules about what you can and can't do before and after the season.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

This little "rules booklet" was in the first page of every Lunacy book handed out. I saw them at both regionals I went to, I don't know about Atlanta though.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I remember seeing signage near the pit entrance explaining all three games; I suspect they were in the Championship programs as well, though I never got my hands on one.

Speaking of rules, one place of improvement I could see: throw a current copy of the manual in the case for pit admin. Having one at the scoring table on Curie was a life-saver (show of hands, how many people not named Lavery remembered by heart the rules for backup robots on Einstein at the Championship?); having them in the pits as well would be handy for those quick double-checks.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

One thing I think needs to be addressed: the college recruiters would be better served with hours on Saturday, or extend the hours during Thursday and Friday. Many of the pit crew/drive team/scouts were unable to avail themselves of the college reps due to team responsibilities...just one person's point oh two...

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

OK, on that one I will admit that even Aidan and I had to refer to the manual just to be sure our memories were correct. :)

Anyway, you make an excellent point. Having current, complete versions of the manual in several locations (pit admin, scoring tables, inspection stations, practice fields, etc) could help alleviate several opportunities for added stress. Or even better, an updated version of the Lunacy iPhone app (or whatever next year's game name turns out to be) that is complete with all the rules (including illustrations and reference links) and updates automatically every time FIRST issues a rules update.

And then include an iPod Touch in every KOP so the teams can read the Manual. Call it the "FIRST Robotics On-line Display Object (FRODO)". Which could be an element of a larger system of electronic manuals, known as the "Student's Handheld Internet Reference Encyclopedia (SHIRE)."

OK, maybe not.

-dave


.