Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I have to admit it was kind of hard to read the rules that I had in my pocket on my USB drive all weekend....

Nice acronyms.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Now just add the Self Automated Manual Wielding Intense Search Engines (SAMWISE) and Manual Offering Rule Directives Overridden Regularly (MORDOR) to keep us constantly updated on the status of bumper rules and the like. Also the GDC would be referred to as Supervisors Acting Upon Rule Obstructing Ne'er-do-wells (SAURON). (It should be noted I don't think people who bring up rule issues are Ne'r Do Wells)

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I do have a negative!

Why did this game feature and emphasize camera tracking of non-lit targets when lighting conditions were inconsistent between regionals? Hell, in Atlanta the lighting conditions changed with the number of clouds in the sky and this screwed up robots. Vision Targets should be lit if they're going to be featured.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

The camera is in the kit mainly to keep the programmers busy.

It was successfull for that purpose, we spent about 4 weeks of programming time getting it working well in the shop, used it for one practice match at our first regional, tried to calibrate it that day, and didn't use it the rest of the season. Finally took it off Friday morning in Atlanta.

Kind of like that lead screw thing, and the energy chain. It keeps students busy.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

There's another point to be made here...

If a pair of GDC members, one of whom is the Head Ref, have to refer to the manual, that they wrote, to make a call, because they aren't sure they remember the rule, then it just might be that the said tome is getting a little thick...

Admittedly, the backup robot rules are in the "obscure" Section 9, which tends to be overlooked in the rush to get to Sections 6, 7, and 8.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

True true, however, in 2005, 2006 (Sans the end game ramp), 2007, and 2008, only 1 of the field elements was used to score. that is aside from the thing you actually score on.
in 04, you had the 2x ball, you had the kick balls, I think but cant remember if there was a bonus for winning auto (wouldnt mind leaving that in the shed bc we cant get a great auto yet haha...), moving goals, stationary goals, stairs, and the bar.

It really makes for fun strategizing. especially if you are going against a team like 71 who collected the balls after they fell from above the driver station, could 2x i believe, and hang from teh bar.

It makes for a more fun game to watch and as a tour guide to many VIPs throughout the years, it makes it more fun for potential sponsors to watch.

and yeah,

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I disagree with this. By definition the Einstein backup rules are only relevant to a very small number of teams one time a year. It is important to have a rule for this procedure in case it is needed, but I am perfectly fine referees needing to reference a manual to recall this rule.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I disagree as well. The important thing is that Dave and Aidan knew that special rules exist for Einstein backups, and knew where to find them.

All teams should have someone who knows the manual that well.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Keep them under lock and key !! Otherwise you can't get anything done. Ha Ha .

.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I'm going to echo this.
If FIRST is going to provide teams with an expensive piece of technology and even more expensive controls designed to work with it, they should ensure that said technology should be not only possible, but plausible to work with at each and every event/venue.
To the best of my knowledge, only a single team scored in autonomous during the entirety of the Championship event (40). A number of teams who had previously used successful tracking code (2056, 1712, 612, etc) were unable to successfully accomplish the feat in the Georgia dome to changing lighting (both from the skylights and the actual arena lights) and the color similarities between the red seats and the pink vision target.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

So next year FIRST puts a Weather control device in the KOP and everything will be fine.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Several teams on Curie were able to track consistently with the camera, some scored in autonomous, notably 27 and 1771. It was a challenge, but it was possible... at least until 5:08 PM (when the sun went behind part of the dome).. then it wouldn't work at all.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Unfortunately, once you decide to call an FTC team who transitions to FRC for the first time anything other than a rookie, you get into a whole mess of other "what ifs." Just a few that came to mind include:

• A team who has competed in VRC, but then jumps straight to FRC
• A team who has previously competed in Botball
• A team who has previously competed in BEST
• A team who has previously competed in NRC

This only includes other high school level competitions, and doesn't take into account other factors, such as an existing robotics curriculum at the school, or previous individual experience of any member of the team.

To look at it from a different angle, look at the sports world that FIRST is trying to some degree to emulate. I don't believe (and I may be wrong at this, as I don't really follow sports to this degree) that you would find any pro sports program who would say that a "rookie" player would only be considered one who had never touched the ball before in their life.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

That's true. A rookie to the NBA may have played ball since middle school, but they still call him a "rookie" because he never played for the NBA in his life, yet he still played the game sometime before.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

If any pro sports program did that, they'd probably be violating child labor laws...

To even get into the pro sports leagues, you have to be at least decent. That means you have to handle the game object a bit...

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

True; I don't think anyone has ever picked up a basketball for the first time in his life and instantly been a star player ("hey, I think I have a knack for this!").

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

The lighting was indeed challenging, but I don't think the clouds were that much of an issue. I was measuring the light level at various times during the day on Saturday. The light level measured at the front of the stands stayed within a factor of two of the spec level. I wasn't able to check on other days, where it may have had more impact. On the other hand, when the timeout was called on Einstein, the disco lights started going full tilt. Good thing teams weren't trying to calibrate their camera during their timeout.

I can't directly compare to previous years that used the camera, but levels were checked at the majority of the regional events, and only needed adjustments a few times to bring them into spec. That doesn't mean it was ideal, however. The dark curtain, the lack of conistency in the lighting in the background, and the spotlight positioning made it difficult for the camera to meter the light and get a good exposure. With the data and experience gained, I think the camera will be better utilized in coming years. Additionally, having a moving target being shot at from a moving platform with a slow projectile is more than just a vision problem. Personally I think the lead estimation and the lack of scoring benefit was the primary reason for the camera being underutilized.

While discussing the event lighting, I'll also mention that few teams took advantage of the lunch hour for measuring the field or calibrating the camera. At the three regionals where I assisted with this, three or four teams gave it a shot. In Atlanta, the red seats and pink target were close to each other in color, but they could be differentiated with a small change to the hue threshold. I don't know how many people asked the NI AIs, but only two teams asked me for help with vision. The vision sessions I presented were also not well attended. IMO, inconsistent lighting isn't the only issue.

Greg McKaskle

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Greg--we gave up at our first regional....although Steve gave us a lot of help that Thursday at lunch, we didn't have time to get the camera working reliably, so we changed strategy and everything worked out ok.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

The final 4 setup, show and all was LAME. Where did the 4 division champs robot parade go? Where did the big entrance for Dave go? Why were there so many speeches in between the matches? The big finish was merely a boring cable show.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Agreed. My best memory of FIRST Championships is Dave V. riding out in a car to ZZ Top's Sharp Dressed Man. Best ever.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

Greg,

I certainly don't think I had intended that as a shot against the camera or technology or support that NI supplied this year. It was NOT intended that way.

I agree that the game challenge was the biggest cause of the camera being underused by teams, but I feel that has as much to do with the specific choice of target teams were asked to follow. Similar to the last time we had an unlit target (2005), there was minimal success by teams. However, with a backlit target in 2006 ans 2007, success was much more widespread. This is especially true in 2006, when the value of tracking the target was readily apparent and incredibly high.

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative
 

I didn't take it that way. Sorry if my response was a bit negative. I was delighted to see so many videos of people tracking and playing with the stuff in their shops. I met with a number of students that went pretty deep and wrote their own code, so all in all, I think that the learning happened even if the game wasn't a great showcase for it.

Greg McKaskle