Chief Delphi - Lessons Learned

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- - Lessons Learned - The Negative (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76863)

Andrew Y.

20-04-2009 11:06

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_Alaniz (Post 852004)

First of all, congratulations to all the teams for their achievements. I don't want to take anything away from the winners but I do have some concerns about the way the judging went.
I think the most obvious example was the All Star Rookie award. There were some really fantastic rookie robots out there and a lot of people who struggled to make it to Atlanta. But this DOES feed into the definition of a rookie team and more specifically... WHEN you become a rookie team.
Team 3091 is an excellent team and They have given enormous support to FLL and FTC... However, when Woodie was chronicling their activities and reasons they were selected, one line stood out to me. They had done fund raising for FLL/FTC over the summer and sponsorship of FLL/FTC teams before the start of the 2009 season. In my estimation, you become a rookie team on Jan 3 2009 and should be judged by your rookie season IF it is indeed a rookie award. I must have missed something because I have never seen a guide detailing what you should do the year before you become a rookie team. Normally, a rookie team is not expected to have extensively promote the FIRST family because they are... well... new. (I don't think you are even ALLOWED to submit a Chairman's Award bid as a rookie.)
I have no problem with the award being given to 3091. But I have a problem with the reasons the judges chose to give it to them. There seemed to be a bias due to their involvement with FLL and FTC and it made for an uneven playing field for the other rookie teams. Not all areas have FLL and FTC, and FRC is often the first competition that arrives (though I think that may be changing) so the opportunity to help isn't even there.
Still, I'm sure the judges had their reasons but I hope prior involvement does not become a requirement to win a rookie award at the championships.

My 2 cents

What a team can put in their rookie and chairmans award, in my opinion, starts right after the end of the previous season. Team 2415 came to me my senior year, 2007. As soon as my season was over, i began helping them plan events, activities, etc. "rookie" year is defined the first season a team competes. Its clearly defined by first. Why did 3091 have a easier time because they were involved in FLL or FTC? They helped others...isnt that the point of FIRST?

Rick TYler

20-04-2009 11:08

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebarker (Post 851951)

FIRST clearly understands the issue of teams folding. They have also stated with abundant regularity that teams need to learn how to build sustainable organizations. Your team is responsible for its financial well being, NOT FIRST.

Which doesn't change the fact that the more teams fold, the less often FIRST achieves its goals. Telling soldiers that it's their job to charge machine-gun nests doesn't change the fact that charging machine-gun nests is hard and a lot of soldiers will die trying. Perhaps FIRST needs to change the program so that it doesn't cost $500-2,000 per student per year to be successful? What if there were an exciting STEM robotics program that only cost $150-200 per student, AND allowed more hands-on engineering opportunities for students?

Steve_Alaniz

20-04-2009 11:20

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 852037)

Effectively, we are now in the 2010 season. It started at about 6:45 pm EDT Saturday. Existing teams are free to do tons of pre-build-season work, both on robot prototypes and extra-curricular activities; why not rookies? (Just don't use any of the parts you fabricate before kickoff on your 2010 competition robot.) If there's no FLL team in your area to mentor, start one.

Well you can indeed plan for it and work towards that goal. That sounds good to me, but there is a, albeit small, risk that we have had our last FIRST season. You never know, so UNofficially the season has started as you so astutely pointed out. Why not rookies? Well... can you actually be a rookie before you register for 2010? I don't know the answer to that question and therein lies the problem. FIRST has not clearly defined the WHEN part. Arguably though, when you pay your registration fee because they will not give you a kit of parts until you do.
Hey I never said I had a problem with local FLL teams. There are plenty around. And start a FLL team? Been there done that. SO I'm good.
And just as a reminder... all this is just my OPINION. But I also have the opinion that FIRST is not perfect so, what do I know.

Carol

20-04-2009 11:26

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

We sat on the far side of Galileo for the finals and closing ceremonies, at the very top, and it was very hard to hear the announcements. It was speculated that perhaps the speakers were aimed for the top tier of seats as these are closed off during the rest of the competitions.

Dave's Top Ten List was shown only on the middle screen and not on the side screens, so we still have no idea what he said (there was a lot of laughter so it must have been good). The flags and equipment blocked our view of the main screen. Will the list be posted somewhere?

There was a closing video that we also didn't see, shown as we were headed out at the end. It would have been nice if they announced that there was going to be one at the very end so we could have stayed in our seats and watched it. (Rumor is that there is a brief shot of our team's Green Man Group in it). Again, will this be posted as well?

Steve_Alaniz

20-04-2009 11:29

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Y. (Post 852042)

Oh... Hey Thank you... You FOUND it.

"rookie" year is defined the first season a team competes

and from the FIRST website

"Each year, the FRC season begins in early January with a Kickoff "

SOoooo you've made my point... the rookie year starts in January according to FIRST.

MrForbes

20-04-2009 11:37

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Interesting...do they also say when the season ends? I would guess that's probably some time around the third week of April?

:)

The season is only four and a half months long, but we work all year long. And a rookie team simply cannot compete in FRC if they don't form their team and do fundraising and whatnot well before January.

I try to learn from successfull teams....

Steve_Alaniz

20-04-2009 11:42

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirrel (Post 852074)

Hey I don't make the rules I only read them and follow them. and no... you are a rookie until the next season... just like in baseball so it is a full year until January rolls around again.

ShortBang

20-04-2009 12:02

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Until the Michigan System is imposed nationwide, I think FIRST should involve some sort of at-large bids for teams that do not qualify from regionals.

After pairing with 40 for eliminations in Chesapeake, and losing by three points in the Third match of the finals, not only were we disappointed that we did not qualify for nationals, but that 40 did not. 40 had the best autonomous scoring that I had seen this year, and reached the finals in both of their regionals. Luckily they made it to Atlanta off the waitlist, and Captained an alliance in Divisional Eliminations. I think there are five or six more teams that didn't qualify that had the potential to do the same thing in Atlanta.

From what I can tell, 40 is the only team that made it in off the waitlist, while there were many other teams I can think of that would've greatly added to the overall competitive level in Atlanta. In watching webcasts of Atlanta, I saw teams that preregistered for Atlanta that barely ran and functioned. I understand some teams decide to preregister for Atlanta instead of competing at a second Regional, but Atlanta is supposed to be The World Championships of FIRST. If FIRST is to be considered a sport, I think something needs to be changed about this. I think preregistration should be for Hall of Fame teams, Previous World Champions, and Division Champions. After that, and filling Atlanta with the qualifiers, FIRST should have some sort of system similar to the Michigan Points to fill up the divisions, until the whole country is on that system.

Adam Y.

20-04-2009 12:08

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurtGummer (Post 851578)

Home Depot was not our only stop either.....electrical specialty shops no longer exist in our area.

For future reference it appears you live really close to a McMaster-Carr storefront. It is much better than an electrical specialty storefront because it literally has everything including the kitchen sink. That is where I order all my wire for my projects. If I actually have the right location for your team it isn't that far away.

Bharat Nain

20-04-2009 13:02

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShortBang (Post 852102)

If FIRST is to be considered a sport, I think something needs to be changed about this.

That's the thing. We're not sure if FIRST is a sport or like one. We are told that it is not about the game or the robots but that seems like the main and most fun part. Even the game rules are written seriously (little too seriously) to make the game and the robot serious business.

Clarity is lacking.

Jeff Pahl

20-04-2009 13:15

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nawaid Ladak (Post 851850)

8. Awards/Finals. If my memory serves me correct. the finals were supposed to end at 6, Why was i sitting in the dome at 6:15 waiting for Finals match 2.... when the MINIMUM number of matches had been played? FIRST needs to work on time management, they give us six weeks to build a robot and fix it windws after (at least up intil last year,) you should be held to the same standards when you give yourself 2 hours to complete the Fnals on Enstein. on a side note, Teams, please don't call timeouts on Einstein, Dean Speaking is your timeout.

The timeout was called between the first and second finals matches. It was for a problem that occurred after the first match. It was not something that could have been addressed during any of the previous speakers. Also, you may have noticed that the robots sit on the field during the speakers, making it hard to work on them then. The field personnel were telling the team that they had to have the robot on the field immediately. Their two options at that point were to either call a timeout or to place the backup robot on the field. What would you have done? I know I sure would have called the timeout.

I agree completely with the time management problems on Einstein. However, they are not due to a team needing to call a 6 minute timeout.

FIRST should have something prepared to fill a timeout if necessary. Something besides having the DJ cue up "YMCA".

Roger

20-04-2009 13:34

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carol

Dave's Top Ten List was shown only on the middle screen and not on the side screens so we still have no idea what he said (there was a lot of laughter so it must have been good). The flags and equipment blocked our view of the main screen. Will the list be posted somewhere?

There was something early Friday morning too, on the video broadcast, when Dave ran thru a list. Was that the same list or a rebroadcast from another year? I'm sure it was amusing, but I guess the "people at home" will never see the photos up on the big screen.

Tom Line

20-04-2009 13:47

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

I don't like listing just the negatives, so here are the postives too:

Positives:
1. The district system in Michigan was very nice. Though there still some improvements that need to happen in scoring (chairmans being worth 0) and time management (closing pits at 10:00PM & 8PM is insane - teams don't get to enjoy themselves and do things with other teams), we got HUGE bang for our bucks.

Negatives:
1. Judging consistency.
Crab is cool. It's also pretty old in terms of FIRST. It's time to educate the judges about standard FIRST systems so we stop seeing awards given out to teams for the same thing. It's my opinion that every team that made an effective fan this year should have won an award (and we did NOT make one).... but I saw multiple awards at every district I attended that mentioned... CRAB.... this is a personal beef but it's also a microcosm of what we see with judging around the country. With the current judging setup of volunteers, I don't know how you can fix it.

The judges need some better standards to work from. In one district, our presenters were told we needed more planning for future work. When we presented that at States, we got a very chilly reaction because we hadn't done them yet.

Oh - one final comment. Please folks, stop attributing a large part of the Michigan teams' performances to the district structure. 2 of the four teams were in the finals last year, Da Bears have multiple regional wins over the years, 68 has been incredible as well, and I think you'll see through the years that Michigan teams have always done pretty well at Nationals.

BurtGummer

20-04-2009 17:43

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirrel (Post 852074)

The season is only four and a half months long, but we work all year long. And a rookie team simply cannot compete in FRC if they don't form their team and do fundraising and whatnot well before January.

We, Team 3020, did.

sdcantrell56

20-04-2009 18:00

Re: Lessons Learned - The Negative

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 852191)

Negatives:
1. Judging consistency.
Crab is cool. It's also pretty old in terms of FIRST. It's time to educate the judges about standard FIRST systems so we stop seeing awards given out to teams for the same thing. It's my opinion that every team that made an effective fan this year should have won an award (and we did NOT make one).... but I saw multiple awards at every district I attended that mentioned... CRAB.... this is a personal beef but it's also a microcosm of what we see with judging around the country. With the current judging setup of volunteers, I don't know how you can fix it.

The judges need some better standards to work from. In one district, our presenters were told we needed more planning for future work. When we presented that at States, we got a very chilly reaction because we hadn't done them yet.

I couldnt agree more about teams winning an award for crab or swerve drivetrains. At both regionals we attended, the same team won a design award for a swerve drivetrain. I completely believe that they had a very good swerve drivetrain, and many teams iterations were not as effective but there was nothing new or unique about there rendition. I think the xerox creativity award should actually award a creative design, not a design that has been around FIRST for at least the last 5 years. I think that the judges should be better versed in what has been done previously to have a better understanding of what is truly unique.

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