Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

I really think we need to keep our pitchforks sheathed and torches unlit until we here more news and get more details.

Lets see what comes of this in the next day or so and if it turns out to be as bad as it seems then we can release the nerd dogs of war!

As long as that is what the team wants.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

It's definitely different all-around. I don't know anything about how our finances are handled, but it seems that all that our school has to do with our financial situation is accepting the donations as 501c(3) and then giving the money to the team. We are also allowed in the building without a district employee - we just have to have a CNP (certified non-personnel) present.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

Which is precisely my point, we don't know all the details, the school is probably following their policy and has absolutely no bad intentions.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

While the situation sucks, Andrew's right.

Of course, I'm interpreting his comments as: "This sucks, but the school can't change their rules just because its FIRST."

That being said, there is another thread here about how we can help them.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

If that were the case (absolutely no bad intentions), one would reasonably expect that the principal would be willing to meet with the mentors and explain the situation clearly and even be open to suggestions as to how to resolve the issue within the rules. That doesn't seem to be happening, at least according to the article in The Bee (which may or may not be accurate).

Bottom line: We don't have enough information to infer the school's intentions at this point.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

I'm with Ether on this. The school hasn't weighed in, except through their business manager. Let's let them weigh in.

If the team splits entirely from the school, and the school does not release the money/return it to the sponsors, and does the same for tools and parts, then would be a really good time to ramp up the pressure. However, I think the media spotlight they're in will prompt an explanation from the school. I don't expect that it'll change their mind, but we'll all at least know both sides of the disagreement.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

If no pressure is put on or calls are made to the school, why would they know that anyone cares as to what they are doing? What venue would they weigh in on, and would they feel it's even necessary?

I'm all for level headedness, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't call the school or take any action.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

If I'm the school, I'd consider the amount of negative publicity I'm getting right now and try to block/counter it with an explanation. If I get a lot of pressure, I could do one of a few things.

1) Return money/tools to team/sponsors. (I look bad, but at least I got them off my back.)
2) Refuse to do anything. (Really makes me look bad, so I don't want to do that.)
3) Reinstate the team, by bending the rules. (Upper administration hates me.)
4) Reinstate the team without bending the rules. (Some poor teacher doesn't like me.)

Increasing the pressure decreases the likelihood of 3) or 4), because technically the school is in the right to suspend/lock out the club. It increases the likelihood of 1), which is the team's desired result--but if I'm the school, I now really don't like the team and may not allow the team anything more to do with the school.

I guess what I'm saying is, you can only put so much pressure on before something gives. If it gives badly, you are out of luck. The more pressure, the more likely you get a very bad break, which means you're REALLY badly off.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

Why would more pressure make reinstating the team less likely? Why would they be more likely to fold the team when in the public eye than when not? I don't follow at all.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

Policy, Chris, policy. To a bureaucrat (even in a school bureaucracy), policy is key. Not following policy is a really bad idea. Because their policy is out in the open, to reinstate the team, they now need a staff person (because administrative dispatches take precedence over student handbooks). No staff person has been willing to take on the robotics group up till now. (Though... Have the janitors been asked, or do they count?)

That means that they need to "hire" someone to be the staff person (big hassle), or they need to make an exception (bigger hassle). Letting the team go independent (and assisting the process by a diligent and fair check of what is team and what is school) allows them to not get nearly as big of a hassle, and they save face (i.e. look halfway decent in the public eye).

Best case scenario: a teacher or other staff person steps up and volunteers. Team goes on with life. I doubt that will happen, though.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

That probably depends on whether the janitors are contracted workers or whether they're actual members of the staff. School sponsors can come from unlikely places. We were having some huge problems finding someone to work with us last year (we went an entire summer and a short part of the fall with no school liaison), and we ended up having a security guard sponsor us.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

(As a note, it appears Wil Wheaton retweeted the link offered by Adam Savage to his nearly 2 million followers, so that may account for some of the mass nerd occupation with the story)

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

Has the team even requested others to contact the school? I don't know if they have, but even if they have it doesn't seem like a great idea to do so, and if they haven't, it certainly isn't.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

I think this just shows how vulnerable teams are without the formalization of a 501c3 or being organized as a club under the auspices of a national organization such as 4-H. "Ownership" of equipment and donated money is hard to nail down when the team itself is legally fuzzy. Many FRC teams live in the limbo between a school team and an independent club (e.g. they have a faculty advisor, use school space and sometimes school equipment, but largely operate independently) so the news about 1432 hits awfully close to home ("it could happen to us!").

What defines the team? E.g. if all of the mentors and students started meeting somewhere else as "FRC Team XX", and then the school assigns a faculty advisor to "FRC Team XX" who holds meetings in the school lab with nobody else there, which is the real FRC Team XX? To some extent TIMS addresses this (assuming the faculty advisor isn't the primary team contact). However, items such as donated tools/cash are often donated to the school (so the donator gets a tax writeoff) with an agreement it's for team use. Unfortunately the team's ownership (vs. use) of such items is sometimes left poorly defined.

In some ways FIRST is similar to BSA in the way it's set up. BSA units have a "sponsoring organization" that acts as the legal owner (e.g. a school, church, or company) but needs to get an annual charter from BSA. I've not done research on this but I wonder if any troops have run into a similar issue with their respective sponsoring organization?

Now that FIRST has trademarked FRC and other terms, it may be able to better help teams protect themselves against such situations. Is there anything else FIRST could do to help provide teams with a better organizational framework and/or legal protections similar to what 4-H or BSA provide?

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

I'd find it hard to believe they would seek out media attention if they were not looking for a public outcry.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

Sadly, that is incorrect. When money goes into a school account, the Principal has the authority to use that money in any way he/she sees fit. It could be used to buy paper if that's what they deem necessary. In this situation they could say, "we are still using the money to further STEM We are broadening our scope and expanding its reach to more students by bringing robotics into the school day. In this time of tight budgets we are serving more with less."

In the hyper-political world that is a public school district, the best way to change a decision is to create a ground swell of support for the team. You need to make their position politically untenable. Sitting back and waiting only lets the Admin think the storm is going to blow over.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

That is definitely not true for every public school district I've ever been involved with. I would check your school's policy on donations for specific portions of the school, as I have yet to come across the school that gave the Principal discretion to use any money anywhere.

Re: Dealing with disapointments
 

Wow, there is a LOT of speculation in here that is being taken as fact. Please keep the following points in mind going forward:

1. The financial processes of your specific school are NOT the same as other schools, especially those out of your state. Don't make broad financial generalizations.
2. School boards are more bound to policy than they are to common sense. So are the people who are charged with following Board policy.
3. If a school representative is not formally and actively monitoring ANYBODY - regardless of age or affiliation - on school grounds, the legal and ethical issues and ramifications that are created are enormous.
4. We don't know the source of the original news story, or the intentions of said source.
5. There could be a formal process the team could go through to recoup "their" possessions and funds, and that process hasn't been followed or isn't completed.
6. The team is not necessarily a separate entity from the school. See #1.

If any of you choose to contact the team, the school, or the stakeholders, please do so in a respectful and informed manner. As SAM said, there's no need for pitchforks and torches when an olive branch would suffice.