Sitting down during matches
 

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I would like to express this once again to hopefully continue to try and change the culture...

I'm still frustrated at teams that stand during the matches. I know I've mentioned and discussed this here before, and I know teams have been doing it for years...but I really don't think it is necessary...

During the championship event, I tried talking to a few teams about it (instead of just yelling "sit down" at teams) and received mixed a response. Anything from VERY rude "Hey...we've been doing this for years and if you don't like it, don't come" to people actually considering it and sitting down. I was surprised at how rude I was reacted to when all I wanted to do was talk and express why... (the team shall remain nameless).

However, we sat up in the very back row and I can tell you for sure this. Not only did you block all the teams and scouts behind you (yes...as you pointed out...we can stand up too...but it's hard with laptops, notepads, etc...) but the little kids they tried to stand up still couldn't see. And the two grandmas that were sitting next to us (one in a wheelchair) couldn't see either (and if you would like to tell her to stand up...be my guest).

I completely understand and expect for your team to stand during the team announcements, but why do you have to stand during the match and block everyone behind you? Just because you've always done it? I feel this is along the same lines as saving seats...but more rude.

So...I'm posting this to hopefully have people think about this before you go to your next competition. I will continue to ask teams to sit down during matches so my niece and nephew and the grandparents can see. I will continue to be polite when I do it...I will continue to try and NOT have a negative opinion of your team because of it.

Hopefully you will consider your actions and realize I'm just trying to change the culture for the better...

Thanks.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Hi Don,

I have mixed agreement with you here. I think that if teams want to stand during their matches they should be able to do so, but also need to take this into account when selecting where their are seated.

It is possible to stand and cheer during a match without blocking anyone elses view. There are plenty of seats diagonally to the side of the field and at the top of each section.

If teams want to stand and cheer then they should not grab seats that are front and center.

I thought in our division that team 33 provided an excellent axample of where to sit if you want to stand and cheer, they were diagonally off to the right side of the field and I don't think they blocked anyones view by standing and cheering. There are teams that sat in the center that did block everyones view behind them, and it was quite frustrating.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Yes Rob, I thought 33 did provide an excellent example of this as well. 33 was one of the teams I talked with in our division and made the change of seats on Saturday and I really respect them for it.

And you are right. There are usually corner sections that are usually smaller that would be perfect for this. The KB's looked great filling that section. Looked like a Hive...

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

This continues to be a challenging topic and there is no good ansswer.

I am thrilled that our team wants to stand and cheer and be supportive when we are on the field, and i also understand that it can block others, especially in Atlanta where the stands are a very low angle incline.

I think we compromised with those around us and stood during the intro, and then the last 20 seconds of the match, but were sitting during the other times.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I also have mixed feelings here. I was asked during a match to sit down so the person behind me (a scouter for a team that was not on the field) could see. I moved to the side so that I was not blocking their view, but there is no way I was going to sit and look at the rear ends of the team in front me while my team was on the field.

I found that even though I am 6' 4" tall, I couldn't see important parts of the field from a sitting position, even if the people in front of me were seated (a rare occurrence in itself).

I noticed a sort of perpendicular wave going on. The front row would stand, then the next row (because they were now blocked) and so on, up the stands. I see no real way to control this.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Thanks for recognizing the efforts.

Our team has always stood during the matches to show solidarity and enthusiasm for the team. Having won a couple spirit awards, and as a mentor, I will say this is actually expected of them.

I heard the other side of this before reading this post. I was told that there were some that handled the situation politely (this might have been you Don) and others that just yelled. One of our mentors told our team that they needed to move if they wanted to stand and so that is what they decided to do. This was possible at this venue, but that is not always the case.

Don has actually put together the best argument I have heard for not standing. If everyone can agree on allowing standing during the anouncements and when action is not occurring on the field (i.e. must sit when the match starts until it is over), I can propose that. My students will be dissappointed, but I feel that they should be able to understand the scouting issues they are causing (by the way, we use paper to scout to get around the standing issue, but I see your point). This format will allow them to cheer when their teammates notice it most, and dance and enjoy themselves between matches (for many students, that is part of what makes FIRST special for them).

I must say though that I am a bit worried about the slippery slope effect. If we granted everyones wish to the least offensive format, we would be sitting the entire time, everyone would be very quiet (so as not to offend the noise persons), and the music would be brought down about 20 dB and switched over to easy listening. The infectious enthusiasm is such an important part to the culture of FIRST that they give a Team Spirit award. Our team has won this award because they have such great spirit for their team, and they cheer for the friends they have met (they will even change seats after being eliminated to go help other teams cheer).

I am OK with improvements, but please be careful when making cultural and inspirational changes.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Standing during a match is absolutely unecessary. Almost all the time you can see every aspect of the field sitting down, as long as the people in front of you are sitting down. If you need a little more height sit on your legs.

When watching Einstein, the team in front of us sat down except for one woman that after asking her to sit down she tried to get the rest of her team to stand up, and they refused. Thank you to those around her for being courteous to us and the other teams behind us.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I think that it goes back to GP. People need to think about the people who are behind them to be able to see, not that it should be a requirement though.

As for the people yelling sit down...I think that needs to go back to GP. I know my team, that did not stand DURING the match, though it was rude that the team were yelling from their seats to sit down.

Think about GP before you act!

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I will admit that some of our parents/mentors did yell "sit down" and I asked them to not do that. So, I apologize for that.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Just another option... 2046's usual approach is we sit for most of the match, but when we get a large dump of orbit balls/score a supercell/see our alliance score two trackballs simultaneously/score the last innertube necessary for a full ring on the rack/etc., we'll jump up and cheer at the tops of our lungs, just like for a football team scoring a touchdown or something; 8 seconds later we're all seated to me. Maybe this discussion is excluding this type of occurrence and everybody does this as well, but my point being is your team doesn't have to solely sit or stand for the entire match.

Granted I've never been a driver, so I'm not sure to what degree different habits give the best support to those on the field, but it seems to me that emphasizing the best points of the game actually give the support some significance. Getting even more personal for a second, I don't give a standing ovation to every award at the awards ceremony either, as I feel an award like Chairman's or WFA deserves a greater recognition than i.e. website award (sorry webdevs). Same kind of idea. That last part might be a bit more controversial...

Just my $0.02
--Ryan

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

From what I remember from driving, during team intro's you look into the crowd see your team stand and cheer for you and all that and it's great, but once the match starts that's just background noise and your pretty focused on what's going on on the field. I can't remember one time where I noticed whether my team was standing or sitting while we were playing on the field.


Does anyone remember back when it was at Epcot they had those sections up front for the teams that were competing to go into? I don't really remember if you could stand there the whole time but it was split off from the stands. Don't know if there is any way to do this in ATL though.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Hmmm.....how about a vertical playing field? climbing robots....

(as usual, I mistakenly look for a technical solution to a social problem)

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

As someone who was shouting "Sit Down", I think it may be impolite, but there isn't really a better way to get your request across when someone (or an entire team) stands up in front of you. A few times over the weekend I was yelled at to sit down when I was in the front taking pictures, and I complied because I know how infuriating it is to miss your match that you waited hours for because someone inconsiderate feels they need to see it more than you do. Talking to them politely after the match is a good thing to do, but it doesn't fix the fact that you fully missed the match due to their actions. I think the fact that it has to be shouted in the loud environment of the dome makes it sound angrier and less polite than the request is.

I applaud the bees for moving to the diagonal section (the view from there is a good bit worse), but it shouldn't have taken nearly the entire crowd behind them chanting "Thirty Three! Sit Down!" (which, admittedly, is nearly as impolite as standing up in the first place) and several parents talking to them afterwards for them to have realized that standing up during a match at the front of the stands is inconsiderate.

Poor comparison: Standing up removes others' ability to see matches. Shouting loudly or playing loud music may make it less comfortable for other spectators, but they are still able to enjoy the games with earplugs. Unfortunately, x-ray specs are to expensive for us to employ to see through teams that stand up.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I know that it is very frustrating when the people in front of you stand up. For Thursday and Friday we sat behind teams that would stand sometimes. Most of the people in my group either stood up with them. For the guy taking pictures he went down and asked them if they would please sit down for future matches because he was unable to get the shots that he wanted.

On the other hand, when our team would score big our entire team would stand up and cheer, and sometimes not sit back down because of the hype, we did not know that we were even doing it.

I did see some people looking mad :mad: while they were yelling at the team to sit down. I think that people need to remember that everyone is there for a good time, and no one is standing in front of you just to make you mad, and if you were polite and asked them to sit, they would.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I am one of those parents who yell sit down during the match- and there is nothing unGP about it. The un-GP part is when people stand up the whole match and block everyone behind them due to lack of consideration. Un-gracious.

When they do it over and over you sometimes need to yell a reminder. Sorry if it offends but it is far less offending than being totally blocked by oblivious people.

So hate me and call me a p---k- just do it sitting down. Thankyou

WC

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

A few years back (probably more like 10) I was very upset when my team all continued to stand during a match and blocked my view. I shouted at them to "sit down", and I still recall the looks of shock and anger from my own engineers and students. They thought that I obviously wasn't supporting the team, and it caused alot of bad feelings between them and I.
I was sitting behind my team, and next to another team - and I thought "how rude" - they are ignoring everyone else in order to justify their endeavor to show "team spirit and support".
I really understood the rationale they had communicated to me - but I still didn't agree with what they were using as justification.
I understand standing during introductions, but not DURING the match.
I discussed this afterwards with some of the engineers and students, but I do not think we ever came to an agreement as to what the proper thing to do was. Good Luck solving this one.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

This has been a problem for years, as Don noted. I have a simple solution:

Any team that stands in the way of other teams' scouts during their own matches doesn't get scouted. Doesn't matter how good they are, they just get a note: "Couldn't see the robot for the team." If they're standing in front of enough top 8 seeds, they won't get picked. Simple, right?

OK, so that's over the top. But I do want to remind teams that like to stand throughout the entire match that there are more than likely scouts behind you who can't see your robot while you are standing! And if there's a single group of people who you want to see your robot, it's the scouts. Without a designated scouting area (which no regional has, to my knowledge), the scouts sit with their teams. Should a team stand through the match, the scouts behind said team just plain can't see. Odds are, they also can't stand up easily due to scouting devices such as laptops, paper sans clipboards, PDAs, gear they are using as writing surfaces, etc. Think about it.

I have no problem with standing during announcements, exciting plays, any time when no action is occurring, awards, or individuals moving around. Once again, those are not a problem. However, if you're going to stand through your matches, please find a) the designated cheering areas, if any or b) a place up high at the back or side so that others can see. That way, the scouts, photographers, little kids, and people who don't want to (or can't) stand up.

I would like to note, I worked on the floor at the L.A. regional. I was the retriever for most of what came over the audience-side field border. If I wasn't doing anything, I was sitting down on my rear as close to the stands as possible. I was deliberately trying to keep myself out of the line of sight of the judges, scouts, photographers, and people like that who need a clear shot at the field but can't be on the floor next to the field, yet I still needed to be available to block almost anything that came my way. Why? Because I was a scout during my HS years, and I know they don't like blocked vision. I know the judges (right above me, in the stands) don't appreciate it either. Same for the shutterbugs.

My point? If there is robot action happening on the field, sit down even if it is your team so that others can enjoy watching too. (Exceptions if it's an exciting dump/massive score shift/stuff like that--but please sit down once it's over as a courtesy.)

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I know that MOE has been a "stand up and cheer team" many times. Generally, we do what others have mentioned, stand and cheer during intros and sit down during the match. If something great happens on the field, we might do an "unplanned stand." It doesn't have to be positive either. Last year, our bot, DynaMOE, tipped over a few times over the course of the season. I have video of some of our team members standing up suddenly when that happened. [Blocked the video of the field, too] People are human and will do these things.

I totally agree that standing during a match blocks others' view and should not happen. I also realize that when teams go to events, they gather team groupies that support the team, but are not team members. We try to educate team members on what we expect, but usually do not have the opportunity to train parents, family members, etc.

So, I agree that we all should sit down. As has been suggested here, if teams do stand, let's try to politely, but sternly let them know why it is important for everyone that we are all sitting during a match.

Thanks for starting the thread. Just don't get me started about saving seats! :rolleyes:

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I've done both, meaning yelling "sit down" and politely talking to a team. In Lunacy I had 973's scouts count the number of balls scored and those in the trailer at the end of a match, so any time someone stands up could be a serious problem to the accuracy of the data. I only resort to the yelling if it's not the first time I've had to ask someone to sit down, I'm not perfect, I get frustrated.

The teams that yell and scream are a different issue entirely. It doesn't interfere with data, and while a little annoying if they're yelling while their own team isn't on the field, still understandable for the Spirit Award. I hope I'm not the only one who wishes that there isn't an award for who can lose their voice first though. :)

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

maybe the team should have a place for them to stand and cheer for their team just like in regionals this could keep people moving and showing thier support! this also helps too see your team up close
this means there would be a place to stand but also allow the other team to watch form the stands and also the only teams that can be there are those who are on the floor ready to play. this could make everyone happy.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

No way, people! If a team wants to be on its feet going nuts for their matches, then let them! As a driver, I love it when teams get loud. Nobody can truly get in to a match while sitting down. Matches need more energy, not less. Scouts can take the upper seats if they don't want to be bothered. Stand up and go nuts, lunatics!

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Excuse me, but I can't see from the upper seats if the people below me are standing up. I also don't give a hoot about the volume, long as it isn't hurting my ears. Nothing says you can't be loud sitting down.

You may have meant "Scouts can take the lower seats", which would work much better.

And, like I said, if you want to be on your feet during the matches, do it off to one side or in the back. Unless, of course, you don't care about being picked for the eliminations because you can't be scouted.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

You've obviously never been a field scout. Scouts can't sit near the top and still see over the standing folks. It doesn't work like that. If you want to cheer, you go do that. Yes, I'll agree that the pure energy of a match is what makes it so intense, but I'd like accurate data for the pick list if it's the same to you. :cool:

I think all scouts should work on getting a designated scouting section, front and center. Limit the number of scouts able to sit down there per team as well.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

We are a literal stand up team that also scouts in the same place we sit. When we stand during our matches we ask the people behind us if they are ok with it or if they have scouters. Accordingly, we either sit or move. We generally sit high up so we don't block the view of teams or spectators, rarely anyone speaks up if they have a problem with it, which we try to avoid in the first place.

If in the future anyone has a problem seeing or has scouts, tell us and we gladly sit down for your viewing and scouting pleasure.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

At Kettering they had an upper rim for Scouting only. It was fantastic. Each team was allowed either 2 or 3 scout passes. We had our robot scouts up there, and our HP scouts standing in the stands. Kettering was a small enough venue that if you stood, you only blocked your own team for the most part.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

That would be nice. Just give me 7* passes and I'll be extremely happy. :yikes:

*1 scout per robot and one for the laptop data

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

We are one of those stand during our match teams. On Saturday we moved to the back of the stands as we were clearly irritating people.

In my opinion, standing during your match is like standing for the last strike of a ball game (sometimes the same duration) or standing on a key play. the problem is that you are one of only 6 teams that are truly interested in giving a boost of excitement for that period of time. We usually sit in the back at most of our events. We are now even having our scouts sit in a different place from the team. We tried this in Atlanta and it worked.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Another thing I have our scouts do if there is a team standing in front of us, is to just move for the duration of the match and sit in the stairs. We understand why teams stand up so we make the effort to let them do what they do year after year.

Btw Paul, did Dustin from 816 make you do pushups after a match? lol

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Our team has always stood during intros and sat during the match, and will of course stand to cheer if something particularly exciting happens, but we've always thought it was quite rude to stand during the whole match. The drive team can't see that you are all standing and cheering anyways, not like during the introductions. So my personal opinion is that teams should sit during their match itself, unless they are absolutely certain they are not blocking anyone.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I would like to think 1089 is a stand up team... we try to stand whenever possible... at the two regionals we went to, standing up was not an issue, as we were towards the back... we were even able to hold signs on top of our heads... so either we werent blocking anyone, or people at NJ and Philly are exeptionaly nice and not hot tempered... at atlanta, we tried to stand, but we soon realized that we were blocking ppl behind us... how did we figure this out? the team in front of us stood up

we were good sports, and kept our energy level generally high sitting down... one thing that i saw that irked me was the fact that a couple scouters from our team moved to a seperate part to get a better view... when we went there, a team in front of us stood up... i had little problem, as all i had to do was stand up and scout, rather than sit, a minor inconvenience. the think that made me mad was (and i hate to call these people out) that two women sitting behind us (not from any team in particular, im pretty sure they were general audience) started yelling at us (scouters) to sit down. We acquiesced, but that match was a loss to us scouting wise... the strange thing is, the women had no problem with the much larger group of people standing up 5 or so rows ahead of us...so again, i hate calling these two women out, but i found that a tad bit rude...

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

No team ever won a team spirit award by sitting down ALL the time! Regardless of where you sit you should show you spirit by standing when your team is on the field. I have been mentoring for 14 years and teams have always stood when their machine is on the arena. I have been scouting for 8 or 9 years and the teams that stand and show their enthusiasum are not the annoying ones. The most irritating are the people who stand in the aisle talking or just looking around, or wiat until a match starts and then stand and fidget for 30 seconds then make everyone in the row stand to let them out!! Why not leave during the long period of inactivity between matches. Yes G.P. is important so is common courtesy----don't stand in the aisles during activity on the field---don't stop at the top or bottom of the stairs/escalator when everyone is trying to get to the toilet or get a drink and get back in time to see the next exciting match. Sorry, but standing to show your team spitit is NOT rude or obnoxious, however cursing at students and mentors of the so called offending team is. You know who you are and you shpould be ashamed not rewarded. Nuff said.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

An observation needs to be made here-

the Georgia Dome seats are not staged in a particularly steep way like they are in some of the arenas we play in. As a result instead of having a good view over the head of the person in front of you the view often barely reaches. So anyone standing for 6 rows below you in the line of sight of the field is essentially a wall and you see nothing on the field.

Since football action occurs way out on the field it is likely that in great plays everyone is standing- and I doubt they are scouting players from the stands.

The Philly venue seemed to have the nicest view of the field with the field in a pit below the start of the seats and a steep staircase to the levels.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Most regionals are played in smaller venues such as hockey/basketball arenas, but the Dome is a football field, and the FRC fields are located relatively close to the edges. Think about the geometry.....

I guess it really is a technical problem after all.

edit: I guess Wayne figured this out at the same time I did!

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Our team, Miss Daiy, stands and cheers with our alliance during elimination, but in the top of the stands during qualifications where we sit with our wheelchair-bound teammate. In this way we do not obstruct the views of others when they are scouting but do when they are not scouting. Is this reasonable? In both San Diego and Atlanta, for the first time I believe, our team was yelled at to sit down, please sit down, or quiet down. We calmly did our best to either sit to assuage the needs of others or shifted our group over a necessary amount, in these pivotal matches against 968 and 217. I would think that everyone would love to see this display of boisterous enthusiasm for the machine that we as a team built with our own two hands in 6 weeks and even moreso for science and technology itself, which is why these complaints and this thread had me confused. We believe the cheering really motivates our drivers so we try our best to lose our voices through screaming for our drivers and our alliances as a whole. We really enjoy cheering for each member of our alliance in elims with our alliance for an even greater sound.

I do believe Philly had steeper stands this year and also the front center section designated for scouting and media but only two were allowed for each team making the use of this space for an entire scouting team difficult.

Good luck with the resolution. I'd love to share with my team the proper etiquette.

Sam A.
Scout
Team 341 Miss Daisy
Wissahickon High School
Ambler, PA

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Perhaps the spirit award needs to factor in the effect spirit has on other teams.

I've had similar problems with flag waving. I had one team in the front row waving a huge flag for the duration of their matches. Despite repeated "Excuse me, no one can see, please stop waving your flag here", those matches were still for their eyes only.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Alright, this is obviously a heated discussion, as everyone has an opinion on the issue. So here's my $.02...

Teams who stand and scouters (or other general people who are not typically standing during the competition) need to BOTH compromise. Teams need to realize that while cheering during their match is fun and supportive, they are sometimes blocking the views of others. If asked to sit down, the teams should be kind and sit down or move somewhere else. However, the scouts (and other general people) should realize that sometimes a team doesn't mean to intentionally block other's views. Sometimes you just get caught up in the moment and ultimately forget what's going on around you--much like the drivers and human players on the field. If both groups would put themselves in the other's position, I think we could all be a little bit more understanding and reach an agreement that works for most.

As far as the comment earlier about how yelling "Sit down!" isn't un-GP, I tend to disagree. Yelling in such a manner is quite distasteful. Ask a person or team to sit down politely, explaining why you wish them to do so, and you'll yield way better results than resorting to a shouting match. Even if they still disregard your request (which is also un-GP, and a shame if it happens), this doesn't free you from the duty of remaining graciously professional yourself. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Really, any team that is going to stand during matches needs to do so from behind where other teams are scouting and/or watching. If this is a requirement for your team spirit - go to the back of the pack and cheer from there. I agree with others that the only time the Drive team SEES you (rathe than HEARS YOU) is when they initially walk on the field. After that - they're too busy driving.

You CAN NOT scout with a team standing in front of you (and sometimes even individuals on teams) - especially if you are using laptops as our team does which really prevents us from standing while scouting. If you're going to be a "standing during the match team", no problem - but do it from where you will not block scouters, parents or members of other teams. We literally score and report on every ball thrown, moonrock scored, and empty cell delivered, and we're not the only ones who do a thorough scouting job. We can't do that with someone blocking the view. We share our data (and our collection system) with everyone, so it's not even as if we're doing it just competitively. You provide your team with a disadvantage at selection time if you're not in our stats because we couldn't see your match.

Scouting is unimportant for some and extremely important for others. When a team races through the crowd in the morning, literally pushing others out of the way (one of our mentors ended up literally being shoved into a garbage can by a running team member - you know who you are), proceed to grab seats in the front rows, and then stand during every match they are in, despite the polite (and eventually impolite) requests of those behind them, that is the ultimate in gracious un-professionalism.

There are numerous reasons not to stand during matches, not the least of which are that it blocks the views of parents and/or grandparents and guests, as well as those that are "Vertically challenged" or handicapped in some way who may not wish to or even be able to stand and sit during matches that the other team is in.

Stand and cheer as your robot comes on the field and when it is announced during the startup. Sit and cheer the rest of the time, or proceed to the back of the arena, or as the Bees did, find an area where you will not block others (an excellent compromise by the way). If someone asks you to sit (no matter whether they are gracious or not), the gracious and professional thing to do is sit. Period.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

You can be loud without standing, and inconveniencing those around you. Scouters frequently can't use the upper seats as there is no power there, and/or they STILL get blocked by those in front of them. As a driver do you LOOK in the stands very often? If so better watch that trailer :D

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I agree with Mr. Cokely, that the venues at many regionals, especially Philly and Trenton, have different seats than the Georgia Dome, leading to better viewing angles, and less problems with standing

However, I think that the idea that a team cannot root for their drivers and robot is absurd. If it is your round, get loud, stand up, wave your flag, but only for the duration of the match (2 mins). when it is not your turn, sit down, and be gracious, and allow other teams to show their spirit. Inhibiting a teams spirit, teamwork, and team pride is not what should happen at a FIRST competition.

For the many with gripes about scouters not being able to see, i agree. As a lead scouter, i have seen the trouble that occurs when a team in frony of you stands up (as chronicled in my earlier post). the simple solution is to reserve a couple of rows for scouters. some teams have many, so they can share shifts or dom something. At philly, there was a block of seats for team reps... later in the day, many a scouter was seen there for the great, unobstructed view. By reserving the block, scouters can see, and teams can shout and yell and stand without worrying about blocking other teams scouters. this is an easy solution, and i think it will work just great (FIRST, are you listening??? :) )

PS: the views above are my opinion and only mine. They in no way reflect the overall views of my team. If you see a problem, talk to me about it, and don't view my team in a negative light... thanks!

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Agreed 100% Mr. Drake. I thought you guys were very appropriate in your cheering/standing.

As a driver, I don't notice or even hear people in the stands during matches, literally. After matches people will come up to me and tell me that they were cheering my name during the match, and I will have had no idea. The time that I get the most/only enjoyment out of my team cheering is when they introduce us at the beginning of the match, and when the result is announced at the end.

With that being said, if teams only stood up at those times, there would be no problem. I hope that my team never stood up during matches, because as I said, I haven't noticed it. :P

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

sorry for getting to the point, but it is frustrating as a mentor and leader when a few of our kids come running to us telling is some "guy" was yeling at them to sit.

When its our match, i expect my kids to stand up and cheer for the team. And my response is exactly been the same for 6 years....if you cant see...STAND. If your scouting, go to the side.

This competition isnt about scouting....its about fun. Dont kill the fun. Please. I will continue to tell my kids to stand....sorry if this offends anyone.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

It certainly doesn't offend. But the overall message I would give to all teams who do stand up for each of their matches as we do, just remember that you do not come first. Come early in the day each day to grab a small section up high behind other teams so you can stand and cheer however you want. Do NOT stand in the full rows and make a giant wall, take a small section on the side. Have your scouting team site off somewhere else in the front so they aren't blocked. This is the importance of waking up early, haha. When you know you are a team that stands, let those around you know beforehand so that all of a sudden you don't piss them off. If you are asked, just calmly sit down.

For those who say that "yelling" at the team to sit is ok, I tend to disagree, is there really an issue for you to just go to one of thier adults and ask for them to sit? If they stand for that match, is it really a problem to view the Jumbotron for those 2 minutes or whatever portion of time the team stands?

Its not really a big deal once both the alleged offender and the offended consider each others' point of view. For example, at Philadelphia, 1403 and 816 went to the top deck in order to have a full cheering section, it was awesome and loads of fun. Just don't make a big deal out of little things.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

While the drive team is too absorbed in what they are doing to see (or hear) you during a match, it doesn't mean standing or cheering is bad. These things make the experience more fun for everyone involved. If you want to stand to show your spirit, do so in the back of the stands where there is no one behind you that you will offend. This is a good compromise to the situation- you can stand/wave signs, others can still see. No one should be arguing about this. Team 241 in CT was a terrific example of this- they had tons of lettered signs they used to spell out words, which everyone loved. They sat in the back, thus not blocking anyone's view. Problem solved, all parties happy. ;)

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

haha thanks, sorry i was a little hot headed and forgot to say that I never have my kids stand in rows. We always tell them to sit in blocks. That was its better for cheering with each other and helps not create the wall. But i 100% agree with you, we shouldn't make it a big deal. but as a mentor it makes me angry when people "yell" and especially when they talk to me like im a student (but i guess i don't blame em....i am young"

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I know Colorado has one(in the corner by the red alliance's drivers).

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

OR has a designated area with table and chairs... 2 team members at a time and you get power. Its center about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

There is something that is repeatedly overlooked in this thread:

If your front and center and sitting, you can't see the whole field. In fact, depending on what side your on, you can't see anything over the judges/refs. This leads them to stand. Next, the second row stands. Then the third. It continues until you have the problem you see today. The only way to overcome this is to have the stands about 6 feet off the ground. Some regionals are this way(such as the buckeye), however others(such as the boilermaker) do not.

Now, if you really want to see every match with a great view, watch the webcast. Most regionals have them and you can see exactly what's happening regardless of the 'wall' in front of you or the 'jerks' behind you. I understand that you will miss some things, but you will catch most of it. Also, a laptop is not necessary for this, try the tv next to the rankings post screen. It has the video on it and almost nobody is down there to be in the way.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

For those saying that the screen is "good enough" (not exact words, but I get that impression) for the scouts to use: It Is Not.

Why not? Well, let me put it this way. You want to count how many moon rocks are being scored by 6 teams. That's a minimum of 2 scouts, and probably 6. Now, the cameras to the screen are nice, except for 3 things:

1. They tend to zoom in on stationary items, like somebody's sponsor panel or a robot that is on its back.
2. If you were watching a football game on TV and the camera cut away from the QB to the WR right as the QB was about to throw to the WR, you'd get annoyed, wouldn't you? Yeah. That's about what happens every few seconds in FRC.
3. The best shot, the long distance one right at the middle, isn't clear enough for anything other than a general idea.

The score panel doesn't help either.

In short, until the FRC camera crews improve their content and quality, you can't use the screen for any kind of accurate scouting.

Look, I KNOW you guys want to stand up and cheer. As long as you aren't doing it during a match, with the exception of exciting parts, I don't care when you do it. But when the match begins, sit down and let the scouts do their thing. IF there's a scouting area (and to this point, I've only heard of 2/47 or so), then that's fine.

But, I would like to note: the 2 I've heard of, I wouldn't want to scout from. One sounds like it blocks off a fair portion of the field (unless it's higher or more towards field center than I think it is) and the other only allows 2 per team at a time, which isn't enough. I don't know about you, but I had a hard enough time scouting 2 back in 2004, and after that, my team went to 6 scouts so we only had 1 each. So be warned: not all scouts will be in the designated areas.


Here's the thing about moving, while I'm here. Because you choose to display your team spirit by standing all through match, anybody behind you can't see what you're cheering about. So they move to another area, or stand up (continuing a chain reaction that makes it to the scouts of another team that sits about 10 rows back, and subsequently being asked to sit down by said team). Then another, similar team comes up. So the people move back, as you're now sitting down. Quite aside from any people who have difficulty walking/standing, especially on stairs, you've inconvenienced them. They also don't get to see what you're cheering for, because they can't see around you. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be inspired by that...


flyingcrayons, I'd have to agree: The easiest solution would be to have a block of seats with good, clear vision of the field that is only for scouts, VIPs, and/or judges, which combination the block is for depending solely on venue. There is only one issue, and that is that some scouts will want to sit with their teams, or that the scouts are the large majority of the team in the stands, so the team wants to sit with the scouts.

Second easiest? An easy-access team cheering area near/on the floor. Keeps the cheering teams down low, mainly out of the direct line of sight of the scouts.


To the teams that like to stand through matches, talk to your scouts. What do they want? Would they prefer being in front of or behind your team during one of your matches? Then assume that most scouts will want that situation, and plan accordingly. If you don't have scouts of your own, borrow another team's for a few minutes on Thursday if you can to help you make the call. Also look into cheering sections on the floor.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

In Atlanta I had told my team to sit down while we were on the field because I knew we were obstructing the view of the teams behind us. It was hard for them to remember as when they become a cadet, and in OCCRA it is one of the first things they learn. To always stand, and cheer on your drive team, give them encouragement.

That being said, I feel very sharply about this subject. I seem to go in the direct opposite direction, and feel that the name of this thread should be "Extremely rude statements made when asking a team to sit down". I was visiting a friend on another team when I overheard someone from a team behind them say something not only unGP, but something so terrible it cannot even be repeated in this thread without getting deleted almost immediately. It was along these lines:

This is so unacceptable and I am very surprised that the team being abused did not take a much higher action against this... In my opinion, NO ONE has the right to say that to someone else, even if they are standing.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I am a little sensitive about this subject also. I love to stand up during our matches and have no problem with people standing up in front of me. I just deal with it. I admire kids who have lots of team spirit and want to show it off.

Now to the sensitive part, Last year a gentleman was upset with our team for standing and decided to "show us" by actually standing on the arms of the seats in front of us during one of our matches. Needless to say I had steam coming out of my ears I was so mad. I was very proud of our team for not saying anything to that guy.

As far as scouting, Our scouts have never complained about not being able to see (that I know of). They just go with the flow. If it is such a big problem and sitting lower in the stands is a problem, why not ask the Georgia Dome to open the next level to scouts only. As someone mentioned earlier, provide teams with passes and put a guard there to only let those with passes in that section.

I actually don't think I could physically sit down during one of our matches. I am so nervous that I think I would explode just sitting there. I also have two smaller children who have never complained about not being able to see. They just deal with it. But we do need to be aware of anyone with a disability that cannot stand. Make sure you never block their view. But the rest of us have two good legs and can make adjustments for the kids cheering on their robot.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I have mixed feelings about this to as many people here seem to have....

I did most of the video scouting for my team so trying to get footage while in the stands (no matter how high up you could get) wasn't always the best. Most of the time teams did take notice and try to stay out of the way but for the ones that didn't your team doesn't get scouted as well because we can not go back and look at matches and see what happened the night before selections. There are a lot of things going on at every competition it would be impossible to remember how teams do their first match, their last match and every match of the day.

As for my team, we stand for every match we are in. As long as I have been on the team it has been that way. Also I do not remember anyone on our team getting yelled at to sit down.

Personally I look at, I want to stand when my team is up and because of that I understand if you want to stand when your team is up. if I block your view I am sorry, if you block mine I do not mind, yes it is bother some, but nothing is going to get solved by yelling at you to move or sit down. It is a 5 minute time frame which I can't seen, but I can still guess at what is going on by your reactions to what you can see (i.e. you cheer = your alliance is doing good(scoring))

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I support the no standing thing and agree that it is annoying when teams stand up in front of my team to watch their matches and cheer on their team.

What really annoyed me in Galileo was that we were sitting in front a team, and they proceeded to rudely ask us to take our seats, and understanding that they wanted to watch the match, my friend and I took our respective seats, but then when that particular team's match came up, all of the other team's members proceeded to stand up.

But there are too many sides to this argument. You have people who are ... small who stand up and then that causes other people to stand up. You have people who are spirit oriented and they stand up for their match. You have people who simply can't see above other people and they stand up just to watch.

There's too many causes and in my opinion I don't think this issue is every going to go away.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Fan etiquette affects all spectator events (& I doubt we'll resolve it here):

From a Hockey site:

Etiquette has become a 'bigger' problem it seems in our non-polite society. Many folks are just 'in it for themselves' and could give two hoots about those around them, or in your case, directly behind them.

To directly respond to your question: their behavior was rude, inconsiderate and intolerable. I could tolerate someone standing after a goal is scored --- maybe for a shootout or something real special, like the 'unleash the fury'. You may have to stand up yourselves, which will make those behind you angry, and in-turn maybe someone will tell the original offenders to 'sit down'. The only time I stand up while the puck is in play is when there is a breakaway. That’s it. Any other time please stay in seat.

From a Baseball article:

There’s nothing like watching a base runner steamroll around third in the bottom of the fifth trying to leg out an inside-the-park home run and seeing nothing but crack. I’m not talking about the echoing crack of a speeding ball popping the catcher’s mitt; I’m talking about the crack of the dude in front of you jumping up like a whack-a-mole just as the violent runner-catcher collision happens.

Standing up to watch a possible scoring play develop is understandable, but only if it’s in the top or bottom of the ninth and your team needs the run. Understand I’m not discouraging standing up all together, but standing up during a live play anytime earlier than the ninth is a no-no.

It is hoped that all spectators and FIRST participants strive to be courteous and permitting others to see what they are at an event to view seems a basic courtesy. Standing when your team or a match score is announced, but not during the match itself, seems a reasonable compromise.

Edit: Please forgive my shouting; I'm very visual & tend to make specific thoughts bold in my lengthy posts. (Yes, another etiquette issue!)

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Obviously this is kind of a sticky topic, with some people that I really respect having a differing opinion than I.

So, the only thing I ask is when this does come up at a competition, and there is "discussion" going on between teams about this, let's be civil to each other and try and find a compromise.

So instead of coming to a team and just asking you to sit down, I would like to ask "Hey...we can't see behind you...how can we work together so that we can get our work done, make it so our little Guerrillas can see, yet allow you guys show the spirit and support that you want?"

Would this work?

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I have no problem with your team standing to cheer, waving (small) banners and flags, and generally overflowing with team spirit -- as long as you do it only when it doesn't interfere with people trying to see what is going on during a match. But I'm firmly in the "sit down during matches" camp. It has been pointed out many times that the players don't notice, and can't be expected to look for, teams standing and cheering while the game is underway. The only thing standing up can accomplish is to block others' view of the field.

There is no benefit to standing during match play, other than selfish pleasure at showing your support. There is a demonstrated negative. Please have respect for those sitting behind you, and let them watch the game without being unnecessarily burdened by your actions. If you intend not to sit, find a place where you won't be in front of anyone.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

This is a particularly difficult problem because there's not really a GP way to tell a team to sit down.

Our team discussed this at a meeting and we all agreed to not stand up during any match unless people in front of them were blocking the view of our match or some other similar scenario. We also try to pick seating arrangements in front of teams we know don't stand up (or at least it worked out that way) or if we can on a balcony.

Basically the best thing you can really do is make a thread like this one and try to pass the word around to teams.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

There are some teams that are an absolute pleasure to sit beside, behind, around. On Galileo, there were many such teams and I was proud to be sitting among them. Two standouts were 111 and 67. I look forward to future competitions where these teams will be. Not only do they excel in leadership on the competition field but they excel everywhere else as well, including the stands.

Oh, and a couple of times, folks had to say 'down in front' to me. I tried to comply as best I could (even though YMCA made it a little iffy...). :)

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

To those who think standing is so important, please consider another point (which I believe has already been made, but I'm restating it anyway):

Elderly/disabled people, visitors (people who are not associated with a team), and potential sponsors often sit in the back. This is because they arrive late and/or have difficulty making it down all the stairs and/or don't want to get in the way of the teams. These are the people whose view you are blocking when you stand up. Frankly, for the most part they are probably not interested in the competition enough to stand up the whole day and watch. For some older people and people with disabilities, standing really isn't even an option.

Would your grandmother be proud if you stood in front of her for the whole day and she couldn't see anything? Are you going to tell her to "deal with it" or "watch the webcast"? I'm not.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

I argee with Don. In the past when I was scotting many times we had a time right in front of us stand up during a match. Yes I understand that the match can get quite exciting but it wold be nice if they would quitly sit back down and allow the rest of the teams to scout.

We all know that scouting is very important during the FIRST competition and to lose some of that data due to interference is critical. I know if someone else was to ask our team to sit down we would do so just like we would want them to do the same for us.

This year the same thing happen. Even though I was on the drive team this year my team mates explain to me how difficult it was for them to see when the team in front of them wouldn't sit down. They asked if they could move to the side but none of them listen to him. Because of that they missed that one match.

So I have to say that I strongly agree with what Don is saying. We should be more considerate of others.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Perhaps we could have parts of the stands designated sitting only and others standing optional.

TO ALL SCOUTS: You are engineers. If you have a system that requires you to sit, and the situation requires you to stand...you need to adapt. Design a system that allows you to scout in a standing/sitting situation. Many teams scout while standing, it is very reasonable to figure out. I am in no way saying you should have to. I am just saying that this is more of the engineering spirit then to try change others. FIRST is about engineering, not politics.

Re: Sitting down during matches
 

Well said.

Standing will always be a part of events like this. FIRST Events are held in Sporting Venues, Sports Arena's, Football Stadiums and the like. Places where standing, jumping and cheering are ENCOURAGED.

No matter how much people yell and moan about people standing during matches, it will never stop happening.

I understand that the original intention of the post was directed towards those who stand during entire matches, however during tough matches it's perfectly acceptable.

In Las Vegas, for the majority of the regional from what I observed, people were sitting in their seats observing matches. However, when Finals rolled around, The entire Red, as well as Blue Alliance spectators were on their feet cheering, the entire match.

I think it's fair to ask spectators to sit during qualification matches, but when high stakes matches roll around, I think it's perfectly acceptable for spectators to be on their feet, involved.

Just my .2