Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Good point, another example -
In 2000 teams placed 13" diameter inflatable balls into "troughs" elevated 6 (or so) feet off the ground. It was relatively easy to put balls into these troughs, but more difficult to get balls out.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Yeah I was thinking giant Caribiners (sp?) would be neat. Relatively difficult to hook something onto (challenge), and extremely difficult to un-hook (but not impossible).

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Actually when you think about it Lunacy was one example where it would have been much harder to de-score points than it would be to score them. Disregarding for a second the rules about robotic appendages not extending outside the bumper perimeter, robots and payload specialists could load balls into trailers with relative ease. Once the game pieces are in the trailer anybody trying to un-score them would have a far more difficult time. Though then again, if extend-able appendages allowed then they could simply be used to cover the trailer and stop scoring kind of making de-scoring unnecessary...

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Less human interaction. And more exciting. For our team, it was pretty much mutual that Lunacy was nowhere near as exciting as Overdrive.

~DtD

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I would say any game where an object is put into a goal: FTC Face Off and VRC Elevation are good examples. In Quad Quandry, the scoring object was placed around the goal, but it would have been a coin flip as to whether descoring was more difficult than scoring.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Yes but one has to look at scale. If you scaled out the FTC field into FRC and just put large bins out..that would be HUGE. I'm not saying it's not possible, heck that might actually be fun, but I'm not sure how likely that is.

And I think that descoring would have been harder this year than scoring. I can't comment on previous years, but the main problem in '07 with the 'spoiler' was that it was so difficult to put on, that 'mostly' teams didn't bother with them.

As far as descoring concerns, I feel that it should be a robot ability, and it should definitely be harder than scoring, but to a certain degree.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

For our team, it was quite the opposite. We found that Overdrive was Overboring, and Lunacy was pure awesome contained in a rectangle-type area.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I'm thinking a water involved game.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

i can proudly say my team enjoyed using them ;)

i honestly thought that both were boring. overdrive was nothing but driving in circles, and lunacy was a really bad car wreck that wouldn't stop happening ><

human players load water balloons into their robots... *mischievous grin*

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I think Lunacy is as close as anyone will get to a water game. We had soaking carpets and everything!

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Soaking carpets? Did I miss something?

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

You and me both. There must be quite a story behind such a statement.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

At some regionals they watered down the carpets to keep down static buildup.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Look here to see Dean Kamen watering down the carpet at GSR (Yay ... watergame :D)

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

How about a moving target suspended from above with random, not predicted, movement. It would make for some mean sensors needed during autonomous to find it. Or, you could have robotic tetherball!

Next Year's Game?
 

i think an area where the robot has to use complete autonomous to find a colored object. Then it goes to the driver station to where they have a choice to fire the colored object over a wall into a target like in aim high, and then go back for more colored object into autonomous; or they could go over the wall to take away the other teams colored object in a teli-op mode like the semi-autonomous of overdrive; or the robot could hang on a constantly rising bar to gain an increase of points as long as it hangs on, if it keeps the colored object for the entire time then during the last 20 seconds, while still hanging, it could shoot the object at a goal higher up for extra points, similar to the super-cell was this year. There can only be one robot on the bar between both alliances so in the beginning it's a race, and when ever a robot falls off the bar immediately drops down again and gives the other team a chance to grab onto the bar.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

does anyone else cringe at this? it's a good idea, but i'd hate to find my robots frame seriously damaged

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

It'd be a seriously cool challenge. Robust robots at their best.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I really like that idea, but the idea of the target miandering around may be a bit too difficult. Realistically, a moving target with a set course sounds like a fair challenge, but that is just my point of view.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Cool Idea - Maybe just a hoop supported by a single rope. It starts stationary, but once it gets hit...

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Like the spider rack in 2007. It was completely motionless until the robots started bumping it. That adds a nice random factor to the game. You know the rack is there, and isn't moving positions, but the actual pieces still wobbled.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Back in 2004, 330 fell off a 10' high bar with no damage. The damage happened the next match, when someone ran the lift while it was locked...

Build the robots strong enough, you don't have to worry too much about damage from things like defense and falling and getting hit by game objects.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

what if there was a ramp for each robot, different slopes worth different points and changing slopes scoring bonus points, and with 30 secs or so remaining, the field was floded with 4-6 inches of water. the winner being the bot highest on its ramp. adding a challenge, make a way for the robot to attach itself to a cable and winch itself up the ramp...but we would need to have power to undo the cables...

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I'd be so down for this. But only if there is a traffic cone ;)

-RC

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Whatever the game is, I'd like the autonomous at the end of the match.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

amen to that brother

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

That'd be quite fun

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

double the field size, add a green alliance

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I quite like the idea of the Purple alliance...

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Hmmm... A game with more than 2 alliances does sound interesting...

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

but then the chant doesn't work

"RED AL-LIANCE!"
"BLUE AL-LIANCE!"

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I think that you need to read up on the games in the late 1990's... Especially before 1999. Then extrapolate...

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I'll check them out. Now that I think about it, it could see some problems with a 3+ alliance system. Sorry for bringing back the idea...

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

You know what would be frustrating? If there was a bar or overpass object on the field lower than the maximum robot height. Teams would have to innovate to make their robots able to scrunch down.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Or expand... See 2000, 2001, 2003. Frustrating? Only if you planned to use the ramp in a traffic jam.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Not if it was built lower than the max height to begin with. Out of our team's four robots, we have only built one that came close to max height.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

It wouldn't be that different from 2008 in my mind.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

With three alliances, a rectangular field can make it difficult to provide symmetry, which any game would need to make it fair.

Anything above three alliances would probably make matches too hard to keep track of. What would the scoreboard look like?

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Probably been said before, but...

autonomous mode in the end of the game

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Or better yet, "Bread Alliance!" as heard in the IRI quarterfinals, cheers mixing. :)

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I hope next year game is very challenging and it is all based upon the Robot and no Human Player (like this year was). I have no idea of what the game might be i just hope it is fun like the past two years has been. Good Luck to all!!

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Anyone think that tetras might make a comeback like the slippery floor did?

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I liked the human player this year, if only because it added another element to scouting. I wouldn't be all that upset to see it go, but I would like to see them add something else that has a team being more multifaceted and not JUST about the robot and if the drivers can control it.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

The 2010 KOP is going to include a small laptop computer as part of the driver's station. With that and the camera, everybody could have a video link between the robot and driver. This would open the possibility of a game with some or all of the operation being out-of-sight from the drivers. Maybe capture the flag with a curtain across the middle of the field or something like that.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I don't know about everyone else, but I believe that we ended up scratching our auto-targeting this year because our camera couldn't keep up with the moving targets. I assume that any capture the flag type game would have to have a moving target for variety (i.e. the target isn't in the same spot every time, for obvious reasons)

Also, I hate to rain on a lot of parades, but games that prevent the drivers from seeing the action also block the spectators/scouts from seeing the action, which I'm sure FIRST wouldn't want to do.

I'm still sticking with my sort-different-shaped-game-pieces-into-certain-areas theory. I've been trying to fit the PC into that, but I haven't figured out a good way of doing that.

Of course, the PC might be another optional thing, like the cameras from this year. There could be some really good advantage to using it, but it's not necessary to complete the tasks.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

If there was a curtain across the center the spectators would still be able to see the entire game if they were sitting in the middle of the seats!

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Our robot was computing the image so that it would be able to calculate distance and such. I think what Wayne was referring to is a camera where you have direct view of the field, like a video camera. Last year such a feature was pointless as the camera was there for the robot's benefit, while in the sort of game Wayne was talking about it would be there for the drivers benefit.

(evil grin) Not if they were to paint over the drive teams windows with black paint. The spectators could see just fine (for the most part) but the drive teams sure as heck couldn't. I love the idea, Wayne.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

But if you weren't sitting in the middle of the seats? ;) It would depend on the venue a lot.

Though I do like the idea of blocking the driver station windows...that would work. It would be a really chaotic game, though, and the drivers would have a limited view. Entanglement could become a huge problem depending on where your camera was placed, and in the case of a malfunction, the drivers wouldn't be able to see what was happening to their robot and wouldn't know whether to E-stop or not :/

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

How about dropping a curtain over the driver station windows and let the drivers drive with a camera for the first 30 seconds (instead of Autonomous mode) and then raise the curtain? Or drop the curtain during the last 30 seconds?

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I'm afraid that a curtain or any type of vision impairment will make the game really boring to watch and frustrating to play.

I could imagine the robots going around aimlessly bumping into each other, making end off game bonuses would be nearly impossible to accomplish.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

But couldn't the same argument have been made against the low traction environment in Lunacy? Lunacy turned out fine despite the chance of all of the aforementioned worries being potential issues. Why would low visibility be more problem prone than low traction?

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Lunacy had low traction, a curtain would be no visibility. You can drive on an icy road, but not when your windshield is covered in snow.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

However, if the robot is fitted with a camera and the drive team were able to view the camera's field of view from the laptop included in the KOP wouldn't that mean that effectively give the drive team low visibility, while still giving them enough to feasibly compete?

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

To continue with the snow/ice/car comparison, driving with just a camera for visibility would be like driving with a windshield covered in snow, but with a little gap in the snow for you to see through. If a robot started malfunctioning, the drivers wouldn't be able to see what was wrong with it. In the case of entanglement (not really a problem in 2009, but it was a big issue in 2008), drivers wouldn't be able to de-tangle their bots, or know when to e-stop.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Cameras are severely limited in how much they can help your vision. First, they only see straight ahead of them. This prevents you from knowing where the rest of the teams are. Also, would you have to have a separate camera for scoring purposes? Then there would have to be another screen for each team to look at so they can tell where the scoring device is. If not, vision for scoring would be poor and scoring would be limited in general. Another limitation is that of defense. If you can't see the other robots, there is no way to stop them from scoring. In my opinion, using only a camera for vision would take some of the excitement of the game and is not worth the added challenge that it presents.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Cameras have the advantage of being able to have a perspective the drivers do not; the camera can see your robot when it is buried behind several others. Moving from FTC to FRC this year, not seeing the entire field at once was a really big change I didn't even think about preseason that really affects the match. Some way, be it a camera or a remote driver station (walkie talkie communication), to change perspectives and get more information would be cool (oftentimes the opposite side of the field was LITTERED with balls that we couldn't see..)

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Tell you what: find an R/C flight simulator. Fly a bit in the various view modes. You'll quickly find that you can't get enough information--the plane's too small, you can't see the ground, etc. Now see if you can fly an R/C aircraft in the real world. It'll be much easier, at least in terms of vision.

You can also do this with a computer-based flight simulator, but it's not as good a demonstration.

Cameras are limited in what they can/can't do. Their angle is limited by the lens, they can't give you very good depth perception (when I'm flying my simulator, I tell when I can land on the runway by whether the shadow is on the runway, and that's the only way to do it reliably), and looking at something else that's important means either changing the angle or zooming out, both of can which affect your vision negatively.

If it happens at all, it will be limited in duration, and hopefully teams get 2 cameras to do it with.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

(Sorry if this is a repost of another idea)

I think it's gonna be space themed again. Just like the IR receiver in 2007-2008 and the Lunacy game in 2008-2009, i think it'll have something to do with enviroment, moon landing, and even less control over your robot. I just hope there aren't anymore required parts like the wheels from last year, our flooring tore up the wheels pretty badly.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

We can program in Java ohh so much fun.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Heard that Dave Lavery got a new pair of swim fins recently...

Water game?:rolleyes:

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

i don't know, that was already uber discussed last year about what lunacy might be..

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Yeah...apparently fish=water game :rolleyes: As much as we would all love a water game, I think it's been proved a million times over that it won't happen* (pressure on the floor, teams unable to practice, electrical issues, etc).

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the word "water" will not be used...for all we know, the playing field could be called "the ocean" this year; I wouldn't put THAT past Dave :rolleyes: Fake fish for game pieces, different stations to "skin" (or whatever you do with fish; I'm a clueless vegetarian) them, cook them, and do something else to them...you have to get through them all before time is up...bonus if you get five or more fish through...

I"ll just shut up now before I start designing the game myself >.<

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

You know, despite that, a water game is always suggested (or at least joked about) every pre-season. Oddly we never suggest a game with flying robots. That would be awesome, though would never happen (probably).

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I'm hoping for larger robot dimensions actually....It'd be fun to build even larger robots.:D

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

...that don't fit through standard doors. :confused:

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Unless teams wanted to make their robots taller...but I don't know why anyone would want to do that to ther CoG.

Nathan -We just like to joke about it because we know it's never going to happen, but still think that it would be pretty freaking sweet.

Flying robots would be hard...but fun.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I wouldnt say actually flying, but maybe a game somewhat like air-hockey, where robots are hovering... (but that may be too similar to Lunacy, regariding a slippery floor)

*sighs* I dont think I can wait any longer to find out the new game... X__X

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

only 149 more days!

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

This is a great idea. Very interesting and a nice twist on the "auto then teleop" model. Sign me up.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I'd love to see a game where teams could leave their robot in autonomous mode as long as they want (and change it to teleoperated at any time) gaining a bonus for the duration in autonomous (something on the lines of 1 bonus point for every 6 full seconds in autonomous) and once they set the robot into teleoperated they cannot go back into autonomous.

During autonomous, all inputs from the driver station, except the e-stop and the autonomous/teleoperated switch, would be disabled (including any inputs from an attached PC).

There should be some sort of visual indicator that the robot is in autonomous (such as a green lamp).

This would allow for up to 20 bonus points (assuming we still play 2 minute matches) but would restrict that to what was programmed into software. It would also allow teams to make deccisions, and take controll of their robots, if they saw that the strategy needed to change.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

How about a reversal to make the game more interesting and put greater value on autonomous, Teleop first and then autonomous, that would be a excellent twist in my opinion

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

That would also put an emphasis on using a camera for tracking purposes.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I like the idea of the camera only viewing. But having it like 15 seconds of Autonomous at the beginning, 2:00 of teleop driving and another 15 seconds of only camera viewing (or dead reckoning) to complete an end game challenge (ie:Climbing a ramp, placing a ball, hanging on a bar, etc).

Autonomous mode at the end just seems difficult for rookie teams. If they wanted it to work right, they would have to get into the right position which could easily be defended or knocked off track.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Well.... Our robots typicly don't fit through our doors anyways(Actualy they do, but barely and thats without the bumpers on) :o


I'd still like to see a longer autonomous(20-30 seconds). I don't particulary care where the autonomous is places in the match; I'd just like to be able to do more things during it.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

How about and optional autonomous period at the end of the match. Once a team goes back to autonomous, they cannot revert to teleop. Bonus points for time on autonomous.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I"m starting to think that the whole "bonus points on time in autonomous" would be very hard to judge, because I'm not entirely sure how you would judge exactly when a team went into autonomous. Then again, I don't know much about programming/field electronics/how any of that would work.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

The field already knows when the robot is in autonomous or teleop. Extending this wouldn't be too hard, and could be really interesting.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I enjoyed my first year on an FRC Robotics team and i liked the task because i thought that it was a little bit of a challenge but it was fun. Next Year, I hope that it will be something that is a challenge because its more fun that way, but it could be a little less complicated. Either way, I'm fine with what next years game is.


**Can't wait for next year, GO FIRST!**:)

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Has there ever been a game where a robot was required to jump?

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

No, but in Raising the Bar teams could earn extra points for dangling from a bar in the field! (Man, I've watched those videos too many times)

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Ditto for Coopertition FIRST (2000).

Also note that in 2000, 2001, 2003, and 2006, robots could possibly become airborne if they charged the ramps too fast. (Less of an issue in 2001, due to the ramp switching which end was down...)

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

May I note something that you all might already know?
One of the new GDC members is from Cirque du Soleil.
Think of the possibilities!
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=78167

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

i wanna see moving playing field parts, either seesaws or a turn table playing field

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

So... The robots have to swim this year? Or maybe jump off platform spin in the air and the swim to the edge... :D

I'm liking this. Programmers wont. But I will. :D

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

i would like to see somthing to get the robot airborne, a chin-up bar was a good example, but how about somthing new?

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

How is this for an end game: A seasaw on either side of the field. 2 or 3 (if your ambitious) robots have to balance on it so that the ends of the seasaw and all robots are not touching the ground. It is kind of like ramps but with a co-operative twist to it.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

That's interesting, and it's been years since it's been done. Look up the 2001 game, and now apply the seesaw part to an alliance-based game. Hmm... Imagine the fun the FRC GDC could have with THAT! I better stop now, before I go totally evil...

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

2004 - Raising the Bar....we had to hang from the bar for bonus points.......I have a bad feeling that this year the GDC may want us to swing from one bar to another.......'Jungle Gym' style!

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

This is an interesting idea. The teams compete for 1:45 and then in the last 15 seconds they work cooperatively to increase both point totals.

The only part of this that I don't like is that it would necessitate somewhat different scoring rules during the playoffs (or a brand new playoff format altogether).

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I just thought I would mention this:

http://www.earthday.net/earthday2010

The year 2010 is the 40th Anniversary of Earth Day, which will occur come April.

Does this mean anything? Honestly, no. 2010 Also happens to be the year that Mars' opposition with Earth will occur (Opposition), NASA will retire the Space Shuttle Program and replace it with Project Constellation...you get the picture ;)

If it is green-focused, i would think that it has to do with sorting, clearing an area, or moving "waste" from the field into basically a giant receptacle for your alliance. I dunno.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

Maybe we should all just make robots that Blast Metallica again.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

That would make my life. :D

Earth day. Right. That pretty much adds a keystone to the going green idea, IMO. The GDC seems to be fond on celebrating anniversaries, and I feel like it all makes sense...

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I don't think that they will do anything with Earth Day. I think the see saw end game would be awesome:)

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

A few days after the Championship in Atlanta 2010 is Earthday. Disneynature will release Oceans

I say 'water game'.

But even if the GDC doesn't do a cirque du soleil style water game - you fellow members of FIRST can help explain to the world why FIRST is important.

See this thread

.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

yes but instead of a seesaw i am thinking a platform supported by one point in the middle to give it a multi directional tilt, so interesting, so fun.

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

your forgetting 2007 i remember on team did a swan dive of my teams ramp at nationals and slammed right in to the wall with enough force to bounce the m back onto our ramp

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

I thought about 2007, but then remembered that either there was a turn involved or there was a wall back there...

Re: Next Year's Game?
 

how bout paintball bots? speedball style?