Chief Delphi - New CRIO in the KOP next year?

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heydowns

21-04-2009 13:07

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom (Post 852864)

And, if the fact that the original KOP cRIOs were 100% donated should make a difference in next years team fees, then why were the fees not reduced this year??

That was my thought exactly when this was mentioned during the speeches in Atlanta.... I was kind of shocked to hear that. Though, I suppose it is possible that the "cushion" provided by the donation may have simply allowed FIRST to absorb other increases and keep entry fees fixed. As an outsider, it is really hard to say - everything is simply speculation.

A significant barrier to team entry and continuation is the cost of the program. If teams could realize an optional cost reduction in exchange for reuse of some of the more durable parts, I would be all for that.

Personally, I would like to see the cRIO and its IO modules reused year-to-year (with option to replace at FIRST discounted prices, as NI currently offers), but be issued new PD, sidecars, bumpers, etc.
The connections made at the IO modules to the bumpers/sidecars are quick and easy to change out and would make moving the cRIO between robots easy.

I like this approach not only for cost reasons, but for "green" reasons.

ebarker

21-04-2009 13:48

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by oddjob (Post 852963)

If it's a lot smaller and lighter, that's a big advantage. The cRIO is a boat anchor and not well suited to a size and weight limited robot where inches and ounces are precious.

It is a fraction of the weight of the cRIO

dlavery

21-04-2009 14:22

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom (Post 852864)

Well, if I was a gambling man I would bet a HEFTY sum that we will NOT get another cRIO next year, AND that the registration/kit "price" will also NOT be reduced ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom (Post 852864)

And, if the fact that the original KOP cRIOs were 100% donated should make a difference in next years team fees, then why were the fees not reduced this year??

Although the cRIO may have been donated, the rest of the new control system wasn't. We still had to pay for all the other parts, such as the speed controllers, power distribution boards, digital sidecars, breakout boards, cameras, routers, drivers stations, etc.). And for all those components that were custom-designed for the FRC competition, there was the cost of the development and production set-up for those items. Only a portion of the development costs were donated by the suppliers - the remainder had to be recovered from our registration fees.

-dave

** Because it will be the Board, not the FIRST staff, that will make this decision. Right now, the Board is seriously disconnected from the teams in FIRST. They don't understand how "small" costs like these really impact this community. There is little direct, personal understanding of the impact of their decisions on the teams. During the recent combined Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board meeting in Atlanta, the question was asked "how many of you work directly with a team and have experience as a mentor?" Out of the entire room of people, only one hand went up. I think that is a huge problem.

.

AdamHeard

21-04-2009 14:28

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 853033)

Based on my conversations with many folks during the season, there is a very large and (temporarily?) quiet component of the full FIRST community that has exactly the same concern. If this is indeed ever revealed to be the plan, I hope that EVERYONE impacted by such a decision will let the FIRST Board Of Directors know loudly and clearly what they think. **

Although the cRIO may have been donated, the rest of the new control system wasn't. We still had to pay for all the other parts, such as the speed controllers, power distribution boards, digital sidecars, breakout boards, cameras, routers, drivers stations, etc.). And for all those components that were custom-designed for the FRC competition, there was the cost of the development and production set-up for those items. Only a portion of the development costs were donated by the suppliers - the remainder had to be recovered from our registration fees.

-dave

** Because it will be the Board, not the FIRST staff, that will make this decision. Right now, the Board is seriously disconnected from the teams in FIRST. They don't understand how "small" costs like these really impact this community. There is little direct, personal understanding of the impact of their decisions on the teams. During the recent combined Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board meeting in Atlanta, the question was asked "how many of you work directly with a team and have experience as a mentor?" Out of the entire room of people, only one hand went up. I think that is a huge problem.

.

All right, how do we communicate with them?

Not sure how unreasonable it is, but setting up a program where each of them spends at least a weekend with a team might be a good experience.

Al Skierkiewicz

21-04-2009 14:29

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Dave,
If anyone ever asks, I have volunteered to share with anyone at First, the GDC included. I know that First is strapped for cash like the rest of us. However, my first concern is for students. Decisions should not be made without a thought of how it impacts them, first. That includes those who have not yet joined our ranks, the rookies of the future.

Andrew Schreiber

21-04-2009 14:37

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 853037)

All right, how do we communicate with them?

Not sure how unreasonable it is, but setting up a program where each of them spends at least a weekend with a team might be a good experience.

More importantly, how can we get them on teams. Actively on teams, preferably not the well funded teams, the teams that struggle to find funding each year. Let them try to figure out how to afford a KoP AND how to keep students from having to pay for things because they can't. I dont say this out of spite or anger, merely because I want them to understand where we come from when we say it is too expensive.

Baring that, Adam has a good idea, at least give them a little bit of time with teams so they can see what the problems are.

billbo911

21-04-2009 14:45

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 853033)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 853037)

All right, how do we communicate with them?

Not sure how unreasonable it is, but setting up a program where each of them spends at least a weekend with a team might be a good experience.

Weekend??? Try two to three weeks, or more. (I know that would be unrealistic to expect, but it would really give a good feel for reality.)

Adam, this is a fantastic idea!!! My concern is that the Board Of Directors / Executive Advisory Board would spend that time with many of the big name, well established, fully funded teams. That is well and good, but by no means represents the vast majority of the FIRST community. If we want them to see the full impact of making decisions, they need to observe the full range of teams that exist in FIRST. From the teams that are able to build two fully functional robots per year (one practice, one competition) to the teams that can barley get the KOP bot built and running in six weeks.

sdcantrell56

21-04-2009 15:18

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

I think this is a great idea Adam. If we can't physically get the board members on a team, then maybe a forum should be set up and they be required to check it. On this forum we can discuss things like financial concerns and such. I know for our team and probably many teams, the KOP is pretty much useless except for the motors and controls. Now if the controls are not included the next year, we will be getting basically no extra value from the KOP and the $6000 entry fee will become even more steep when considering the value. Particularly with the district event showing that events can be run cheaper and teams can pay less to play more matches, every team should have this advantage, not just the teams who are fortunate enough to be located in Michigan.

Wayne C.

21-04-2009 21:01

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 853037)

All right, how do we communicate with them?

you write courteous letters that point out the issues and offer solutions. And you pray that somebody listens.

Recently a few of us in the NE did just that and we have a dialogue going. But the original response I was getting was akin to "well- you are the only one with problems"

If you never takes steps to solve problems you cannot just complain that they exist.

WC :cool:

waialua359

21-04-2009 22:04

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

A customized KOP (say 3 options?) sounds like a great idea.
Even though teams get many donated items every year, I hate to see it go to waste where it just stockpiles somewhere.
We personally try to give away and lend teams the stuff we dont use every year, except motors of course............but there is still that problem of waste.

I realize that it is an additional cost to customize KOPs, but maybe with the weight saved in shipping a lighter box, it will offset it, with the hopes of providing a cRIO every year.

MrForbes

21-04-2009 22:37

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

One slight problem with the customized KoP idea is that we don't know what we need until after we get the KoP....we build our robot to play the game, and the game is announced about the same time we get the kit, and we need a few days at least to figure out whether we want to use pneumatics, kit frame, etc.

As far as whether or not we want a new cRio for that year, it should be pretty easy to decide ahead of time (before signing up for the first regional).

Greg McKaskle

22-04-2009 00:13

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirrel (Post 852977)

I have trouble considering it to be a boat anchor...I have too much old tube gear laying around :)

The cRio does have an interesting design, not quite how I would do it, but it takes up far less real estate on our electronics board than the power distribution and speed controllers do, as usual. We took the time to figure out how to mount the cRio down low, with the connections easily accessible, and it really wasn't a size/weight issue at all.

Glad to hear someone has a normal boat that can't be held in place by 929 grams.

Anyway, to explain what was in the NI booth, we actually had three generations of the cRIO. The drop test was the original generation of modular system. It consists of a cpu module, a backplane module, and the I/O modules. The backplane has the FPGA and comes in four and eight slot sizes. This rectangular packaging allowed the controller to fly to around 4000 ft in a rocket -- slides into the tube like a loaf of bread along with the battery.

The FRC cRIO is called the integrated unit. It is lower weight and lower cost because the cpu and backplane are integrated into one PCB. It wasn't officially released when discussions about its use began.

The third generation on demo is often referred to as the single board RIO. It has the module connectors on the edges to flatten the product from a loaf of bread into a pizza, and in fact doesn't come with a housing since it is designed to be integrated into a cabinet on large machinery, etc. This product was also under development when discussions began, but wouldn't be released early enough, doesn't have an enclosure, etc.

Greg McKaskle

Imadapocalypse

22-04-2009 01:17

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

i hope a new cRio will be in the new KOP
we drilled holes into the one we had in order to make weight
unfortunately that was illegal and we had to borrow at both regionals and Championships

EricH

22-04-2009 01:36

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imadapocalypse (Post 853477)

i hope a new cRio will be in the new KOP
we drilled holes into the one we had in order to make weight
unfortunately that was illegal and we had to borrow at both regionals and Championships

I guess you found out the hard way that you should read the whole manual, not just the "important parts". Lesson learned, I hope...

If there isn't a cRIO in the KOP, you'll have to buy one at the discounted price.

mcf747

22-04-2009 04:55

Re: New CRIO in the KOP next year?

Thinking ahead, we designed our entire electrical system to be 100% removable. The only thing I would have to do (electrical captain) in make 2 new muti-connectors one for power and one for data and then plug into new robot.

Also very cool feature....from working robot to electrical board in my hands and showing to a judge is around 30 seconds with a helper. We did time trials for fun and my number 2 and myself did it in 18.7 seconds. It was a fun night. :) :eek:

mcf747
Mortorq 1515

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