Solutions for No Shows
 

Of course, my title assumes this is a problem. But, many other threads go meandering about other topics, and I'd like to try and proactively answer this question.

In trying to keep the focus on one solution for one situation, I'm throwing it out there: assuming no-shows are an issue, what's the best solution? The best solution may be to leave it alone.

Personally, I'm a fan of "filling in", not choosing another to leave out for equal teams. But how? I like solutions.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

Mike,

It depends on the game. This year, a no show was a big deal.

My "solution" for this year would have been a placebo: A Kit-bot with a BOM drive train and 3 VEX ultrasonic sensors programmed for continuous autonomous mode "avoidance" software would have been preferable to a no-show.

JMHO.

Mike

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I think that would have been a good "solution" and it would have added an interesting twist to this game.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I think a randomized selection of a robot should be made, and the match will be played with the 2 bots and random choice at the end of the day, rather than using an auton bot that will just run around being obstructive, and not really helping the alliance. Sure, its better than a sitting trailer, but how many points does it prevent from being scored? Only so many balls can fit in a sitting trailer, and chances are the auton bot will get pinned anyway, because of it's lack of driver.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I like the "placebo" solution Mike described.

One of the key aspects in my mind is that any replacement method should never allow for an alliance to gain from using the replacement over the original team. This basically eliminates any selection from the other teams in the competition. The described placebo would be worse than any working robot, but significantly better than a sitting duck trailer.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I would've liked to seen matches where if a bot didn't show (aka 3 vs 2) the "extra" trailer was removed from the field.

Yes it means there is one less trailer for the 3 team alliance to score on, but it also means there is one less robot scoring for the 2 team alliance.

I would like to just see a couple of matches like that and see where the results were heading.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

Even if the auton surrogate bot did get pinned, it demands a resource from the opposing alliance to do the pinning. The whole point is to level the playing field and this does it.

As it was , a stationary trailer was basically the equivalent of an open artery. In 2:15 minutes the short alliance is toast

I am guessing that there are few incidences of an alliance being down one bot w.r.t. the other alliance and not losing. It would be interesting to see the numbers on this.

Another possibility was to not allow scoring on the empty trailer during auton period.

Frank

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

Our first qualifying match in Arizona was like that, we won without our 3rd robot. Scouting data could possibly provide the numbers.

I consider it to be just another challenge of the game.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I don't think other teams should be used to fill-in no-shows. As it is now, teams are encouraged to help their alliance partners fix their robots before each match. I know my team does this every match in the early weeks: "go check on our alliance partners and see if they need any help," our head mentor says. The penalties of a no-show actually help foster GP, in my experience.

Having said that, I think this year's game made the no-show penalty a little harsh. Having less offensive power is one thing, but giving your opponents an effective 50 free points is another. Perhaps future games should be designed such that offense and defense are not so intricately tied together. For this year's game, I like the auton bot idea, but it would have to be very underpowered. The idea here is to bring the no-show penalty back down to that of previous years, not to remove the penalty entirely. When a team realizes they have a no-show on their alliance, "oh crap! fix it at all costs!" should be their immediate reaction.

You may say that it is unfair that some teams are unlucky enough to have a no-show on their alliance, but there are equal chances that a team will end up with a super powerhouse wins-every-regional-they-attend bot who could win the match themselves if they had to. Unfortunately, the seeding system involves more than a bit of luck, but at least that luck is balanced.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

What happens when all 3 robots don't show up, and win because the other alliance has zero trailers to score on, while their own human players have three?

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I don't really think there needs to be a solution. This year was probably the worst so far for being down a robot, but it still wasn't impossible to win. I saw several matches like this, including one of ours. The "solution" is to always talk to your partners before hand and see if they need help getting working. All that needs to work is their drive, which shouldn't be too hard to get up and running.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I do not like the idea of replacing robots. What if you got a team that doesn't work well so you just go with some other robot instead? That team may never see the field and that's just plain not right.
If you really want to execute a solution, go to their pits and use your expertise to see to it that they make it to the field and help you to succeed. Isn't that the point of this program in the first place? To inspire not only our students but other teams as well.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I think it would have been fun to optionally "double trailer" for no-shows. One of the remaining two teams would have an extra trailer attached ( modify trailers so they include a hitch ).

Then the remaining bots could make the trade off between decreased performance for the double trailer bot and the zero performance for a lone trailer.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I feel the trailer and the human player should be "linked" together. If you remove the dead trailer, then you have to remove the human player. Making it a true 2 on 3 match.

If a team wanted to keep their human player without a robot on the field, then the trailer should stay. This would allow those 20 moon rocks to be played, plus the possibility of launching supercells, but with a drawback of having the dead trailer.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

Instances when robots are not going to show creates a sense of urgency in the pits, which helps teams help each other. I can think of a Variety of Instances from this year alone when teams even crossed alliance lines to help get each other ready for a match.

Truth be told, I don't think a solution is necessary.

And I don't say this from never having witnessed it happen.

In Qualifications 8 in Las Vegas BOTH of our Alliance Partners didn't put a robot on the field. If anything, it motivated our drivers and caused them to pour on 150% effort. We won that match 78-60.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I feel that an autonomously controlled placebo would be significantly worse than any robot I have seen this year. This means that there would still be a large incentive to get your alliance partners working.

In this game a no-show team had a much greater impact than in previous years and in my opinion too much of an impact. The "placebo" bot would have done a bit to lessen this impact. I also think that the solution to this "problem" needs to be evaluated on a game-by-game basis. In the past couple year's games I would have left no-shows as is. The goals being attached to the robots this year made this game very different in terms of no-show teams.

As to the comment that it shouldn't be too hard to get their drive up and running this all depends on the complexity of the drive system. If a team overstretched themselves and went with a drive system too complex for their capabilities or if they went with a strange drive system that you are not familiar with this is not the easiest task.

For a small team like my team, that doesn't build the most robust of robots ourselves (yet), we do what we can to help get our partners running, but we can usually only send a person or two over and they may not be our best and brightest because they may be working on our robot. We have also encountered teams that refuse help or say that they're fine and then proceed to miss the match anyway.

EDIT: Also anyone that won a 1v3 match this year was purely due to poor strategy by their opponents and 2v3 matches should have also been extremely difficult to win.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

Every Thursday of competition, after we get unpacked and working we go in search of a team or teams that need a lot of help and start helping them. Then throughout the day I go to the inspectors and ask which teams need help. We usually stay until the pits a closed helping other teams.

On Friday once we get our schedule we go out to find our alliance partners and see if they need help.

This year we didn't have a single no-show in any of our matches.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

Ouch.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I'm not saying that your team didn't have a good robot, or that you didn't do anything strategy-wise or driving-wise to earn that win, what I am saying is that against three working robots you should have been stuck in an opposing corner for the entire match. With good strategy by the three robots there should have been absolutely nothing your team could have done.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

At our district events we never had any no shows which was great, we always checked with them before we were leaving for the field. At the Championship however, we had several problems of no shows. We checked with teams before leaving and all said they were ok, with a 6 minute walk back and forth it was challenging to try to track them down when they didnt hit the field. 1 match we had a no show and played 2v3 and another match we had 2 no shows, untill the announcer was wrapping up the blue alliance and they came running on the field. I think the current system is good because it helps you to work more with the teams in need as well as plays into the game.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I think the problem could have been solved by changing the game from the beginning. If we had started our robots in our OWN corners...it would have mediated the issue.

This would have meant that an empty trailer would have been a disadvantage but not as much.... AND a non-moving rookie robot with no autonomous would not have been such a serious disadvantage for an alliance.

This would also have partially fixed another problem... which was the over dependence on the human player scoring. A team could still push another robot into range...but the initial scoring would have been less and the game would have been played with more emphasis on the robots.

I also think that the game could have been played very successfully without allowing any of the humans to score. The human players could have loaded robots and placed the moonrocks into play on the floor instead of scoring directly. This is similar to Aim High or Rack and Roll....

I do think that this change would have required a supercell rule change also.
Because the robots would be scoring the SC the time could have been expanded to the last 30 seconds so robots could be loaded and go hunting.
Robots would still only be able to have one SC to use...

I think this would have ameliorated the issue of the empty trailer somewhat.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

Moving away from the opposing alliance's HP was the only incentive to do anything in autonomous this year. There were none of the scoring advantages usually present in autonomous mode. If we started in our own corners, I know my team would have just sat there during autonomous mode; I'm sure many other teams would do the same.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I'm with Eric. In fact, I think it would have been interesting if an alliance had three trailers, perhaps only two, and the trailers could be attached to individual robots or to ganged together into trains. This would have allowed additional robot specialization into tugs and sprinters, and the no-show means that at least the trailer would be moving, and there would even be robots designed for pulling multiple trailers.

Greg McKaskle

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

Wow, that would have actually been pretty awesome, and I think would have led to a greater degree of ingenuity on the part of the teams.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

I completely agree with the emphasis and opportunity on GP, and helping out other teams. But going beyond the thoughts of this years game, looking backwards at the past few years, a no show would still be an effect on a team.

We were fortunate enough to win when down a robot at least once during a regional, while our mentors were STILL trying to fix the bot that did not show.

But despite the best intention of offering assistance (and professionalism is not just offering assistance, but asking for it before the last minute), machines will still break, etc. For example, 20 minutes before Curie began, and we were the first match, our 120 breaker literally broke! You can imagine the scramble.

Imagining this was last year's game, at least our alliance would have had a rabbit to do laps, etc. if subbing were allowed.

I truly believe in the "I" in FIRST, and do this as an educator, I don't know squat about the engineering. I don't see the educational value in this lack of reality, when something that can be addressed is not. Yes, GP to help and ask for help, but I think there's more to it.

Re: Solutions for No Shows
 

A valid concern. Obviously this would have to be addressed...but with the amount of times 3 robots did not show up to a match, it could still be a worthwhile avenue to pursue. At least in my eyes.