College student mentors
 

My robotics team, the Cheltenham side, is run by a less-than-knowledgeable teacher who is not aware of all of the rules. My friend is graduating this year, and is looking forward to coming back in the 2010 season. However, the teacher believes that a student must stay away from their team for at least two years before they can begin to mentor or assist their old team. I am almost positive (as is my friend) that this rule was made by the teacher who used to run the second part of the team, the Springfield side, in order to keep a certain person from not joining the team again, since he did not represent the true spirit of FIRST. However, my teacher, the one who is still on the team, is under the impression that is a actual, official rule of FIRST. Can I please have some of the older members of FIRST share their knowledge and wisdom with me so my friend can continue to help out the team next year?

Sorry if this is convoluted, I haven't been on forums in ages, and only just joined Chief Delphi. Hello everyone!

Re: College student mentors
 

Not a rule. Not necessarily recommended, but far from an official rule.

Re: College student mentors
 

First off, Welcome to Chief Delphi.

I can understand the point in the rule. It's to provide a barrier time for people to be able to transition from being in the role of a student, to being within the role of a mentor. There is a fair diffrence between the two. Also, there are other ways that your friend can still be involved in FIRST. One way is to volenteer in a competition. That, and the 'rule' isn't an official rule of FIRST. It may be a team rule though.

Re: College student mentors
 

haha hi Jon! Welcome to Cheif Delphi!
I'm actually the friend he's talking about.
I already am planning on volunteering at competitions in fact I've already signed up to volunteer at Duel on the Delaware.
The problem with this "rule" is the mentor who created it is no longer involved with the team, but left the impression it was an official rule to get others to go along with it. The sponser for our team would like me to come back, but she is convinced I am unable to. My college is actually right across the street from the high school and considering most of the work I do for the team is organizational it would be helpful for our team if I was able to come back.
Thanks everyone for the information!

Re: College student mentors
 

I am a college student. This is my 4th year mentoring robotics teams. That includes FLL, FTC, and FRC. There is no "one size fits all" judgment on this conversation, and this is not a topic that should be approached as such. First and foremost, it is up to the team to decide the policy, and it should be a case by case basis. Some college students are mentor material, some are not. Some can budget their time well during build season and make good grades while doing so, some can not. Some can be the head mentor of the team, and lead a successful season, some may just need to show up when they are available.

This thread talks much deeper into the subject, and I advise further conversation be directed here.

Truly, this boils down to is the college student able to be a leader and a role model? Can he or she inspire while teaching FIRST values and gracious professionalism? Here is a whitepaper called "A Mentor Is..." It is up to the team to decide if the mentor to be meets the criteria.

Re: College student mentors
 

Opinions on this site may be misleading regarding official information; go to the source. If someone thinks that this is a FIRST rule then they should able to find it written down somewhere, just like a game rule. A good place to start would be to contact the FIRST Senior Mentor from your area to help find the official requirements. From PA it is Jessica Jankowitsch jjankowitsch@usfirst.org or jessjank. on these fora.

<opinion>The only official documentation I've been able to find is http://www.usfirst.org/community/vol....aspx?id=11576 which suggests to me that FIRST considers the issue of who qualifies as a mentor to be a team issue. </opinion>

If there is a team rule then it too should be documented somewhere. <insert plug for team handbooks>

Re: College student mentors
 

First off: IF this is a rule, I've broken it twice on two separate teams. This is definitely NOT a rule.

This segment is the part that worries me. Networking and organization are not always the most fun part of engineering. However, they are very important for all future engineers to have experience doing. It would seem to me that it would be MOST valuable if you were to teach them how to do what you do. I am NOT saying you shouldn't come back. I'm just saying that though it may help make things easier on the team if you do this for them, it doesn't necessarily mean it is best for them.

My take on mentoring, a mentor's job is very different then a student's job. They help do things. Sure, some like to get in there and get their hand's dirty. I've seen some that do some things for the students. But they always do it in a teaching manner. There are many debates on CD over what a mentor should do. However, I think we all believe in doing it with a focus on teaching. Personally, I like to explain everything that I do. I often keep a student handy to work with me. That way they can do most of the work. I usually lead them through the work without doing it. This works really well for dimension planning. However for organization is quite different. Perhaps you could choose a young student to be an apprentice(sort of) and teach them how to network throughout the team, how it is organized and how to keep it working smoothly are very important for students to learn.

If you want to discuss this more, please feel free to PM me. It is very important to think about what kind of mentor you want to be, and how to be that kind of mentor. As a student my focus was on the success of the team. As a mentor my focus is on the learning of the students. When you think about these things you may think about things as I do, or you might become a completely different kind of mentor. Either way, good luck with everything.

Re: College student mentors
 

Can someone do it? Yes, there is no rule prohibiting one from turning right around and mentoring straight out of high school.

Is it wise? I'm not sure. Working with a team other than my high school team probably would've done me well, in hindsight. I recommended the same to my team's graduating seniors.

Re: College student mentors
 

I'm going to agree with the rest.

The rule is a team rule, and as such may be rescinded by the team in such fashion as the team chooses. FIRST does not interfere with team organization; in fact, the only requirement FIRST has for team makeup is that they have between one and three pre-college students (driver, human player, and operator).

I would advise your teacher to read the full manual, and the related documentation, found on the FIRST website. Much of this doesn't really change year-to-year, other than references to the game of the year.

Whether or not mentoring your old team during your first year out of high school is a good idea has been discussed before; I've seen it work and I've chosen not to try it myself. As you are local, stopping in to say hello and ask if help is needed from time to time should be OK, but your school should naturally take priority. Your best bet is to train some of the current students in your "field of expertise" before you leave.

Re: College student mentors
 

There are two problems with the way our team is set up that doesn't allow this:

1. The team is very small, and half of us are graduating this year.

2. The head mentors of the team have set it up so that students do not select what they do to help the team until very late in the year (it can be kickoff before a student will know what they are doing).

Considering we are comprised of 3 schools, even though there are few people, it's fairly hard to stay organized sometimes.

Re: College student mentors
 

Hate to say it, but my honest opinion would be to let your team ride it out for at least one season. Team's don't grow all that much unless you let them try themselves. Students grow into taking on responsibilities to the best of their ability, in time. Quite a few of the graduates from our team last year thought that the 09 team would be quite a disaster because 17 seniors graduated. The result of this season was quite the contrary, we built one of our most reliable robots yet and had the most organized team we've had yet.

Basically, don't underestimate what the kids can grow into when given the chance. A lot of them might surprise you. If you can, give all of them simple rundowns of your responsibilities, that way you won't have to worry about who gets what job.*

*By the way, that whole thing about the kids not being able to pick what they want....now that's a whole 'nother story. I could see the situation of a small team having the students multitasking, but having them do assigned sub-teams; seems kinda dumb to be honest.

Re: College student mentors
 

A lot of teams have rules like this and I can see why.

I think it would be awkward to return to the team you spent 4 years on in high school immediately, as a mentor. How are the students who you joked around with and were friends with going to respect you as an adult without any transition time between you being a student and a mentor? How will the adults? It would be very difficult to truly be a mentor, and not just an extension of your former role in the team.

That was part of my thought process after my first year of college (which I spent volunteering for FIRST instead of participating). I felt like I would be caught in between a student-mentor zone in which I would not be able to completely identify with/be accepted by either, until a few years had gone by and all the people I knew on the team as a student were gone.

I was only in my second year of college when I joined Team 254, but all the students respected me the same as any other adult, because I had no prior interactions with them which would cause them to view me as one of them, rather than a mentor.

Whatever you do, do not let FIRST consume you during college. I can tell you from experience that it's not healthy. It isn't much fun to be in college for 7 years because of all the time you invest into FIRST in place of school. FIRST and other activities will be around later-make sure you make completing your education your priority.

Re: College student mentors
 

It sounds like you might want to spend some time working with the teacher and the schools in charge to see what you can do recruit for the future then. Usually the teams who develop decent tactics for recruitment don't need to always worry about transfer of knowledge when an impactful senior class leaves the team. I've seen some great threads on recruitment, might try looking some up. My team is made up of two schools; in the fall we received 150 "interested names" after assemblies and ended up with a team roster of more than 40 students.

As for your current situation, everyone above really did a good job of listing many of the reasons as to why your teacher may have considered this rule. I have the same rule implemented on my team for a few reasons;

(1) district policy states that a volunteer coach must have 60 college credits,
(2) it's hard for a senior to immediately switch over to mentor mode because their classmates don't always buy in, and
(3) to give the graduating senior a chance to build a solid "post high school" start. I'd love to have many of my seniors back next year but it's more important for them to begin the next stage of their life strongly.
(4) Lastly, to give the underclassmen a chance to lead the team the same way the seniors had theirs.

Hopefully that gives you some of the teacher's perspective on this. Let me know if you have any questions.

Re: College student mentors
 

Mark's post is an excellent one. Developing and implementing the use of a team handbook is very important to the on-going organizational consistency and development of a team. Also, knowing who to contact directly for correct and official answers to your FRC questions helps the team develop successfully.

I would encourage you to look at this from the teacher's perspective, through the lens of wisdom. Asking the current teacher/sponsor for a private meeting to discuss the graduating student returning as a mentor in 2010, would help clear up any misunderstandings regarding the topic of pending/recent graduates and mentoring, and perhaps other areas of teamwork that may be a little muddled.

It is rare that teachers are the bad guys, and although they can be tough for sure, they usually have the team's and the student's best interests at heart. Good communication and knowledge of the rules are effective skills that every team/team member should work on, and keep working on, in every aspect of team development.

Re: College student mentors
 

Purdue FIRST Programs has a rule in place that you cannot mentor the same team you were on in high school for one year after graduating. There is no possible way that the students on the team will see you as a mentor after having been a student on the team the year before. Taking a year off from the team gives you and the team some transition time, and when you come back, you'll be seen differently than you were before.

My suggestion as an incoming college freshman is to just volunteer at regional events and maybe just come in a few times during the build season for design reviews and things of that nature. I mentored a team for three years during college and it has been a great experience, but I'm glad I took that first year off from FIRST to help transition myself.

Re: College student mentors
 

I agree with what many are saying here.

I started a team my freshman year of college, and while I wouldn't suggest being in charge of a team that early on, I think it was ok to mentor. That being said, HOT, my HS team, had a "no students returning to mentor" policy. We have had a few kids on the DP go on to mentor and while I love them and they've been great mentors, I almost wish we would have had them wait a year, just to give the kids a bit of time to see them as mentors v. students. There is a definite line that needs to be drawn when you transition and remain on the same team, especially in the eyes of the students whom you will be working with.

As to your situation in particular, I would suggest going about it in a way that would encourage the teacher and lead of your organization to see you as a mature, professional potential mentor. Sit down with that teacher and, rather than saying the policy is dumb etc, list some fact-based reasons why you feel it should be modified. Explain why you would be an exception to the need to wait, perhaps you've demonstrated exceptional maturity while being a student participant, or demonstrate some skill set currently missing from your mentor group.

Best of luck!

Re: College student mentors
 

There is no FIRST rule about this; there are no FIRST rules on how anything could be done with team organization.

I'll talk a little about my situation and you can see if it applies to yours.

Personally, though I'm pretty biased, I think college mentoring is possible, though not on the scale your regular mentors work. Most colleges are on break for the first 3 weeks of build season, and if you don't think I'll at least be trying to stop by 1714's shop to say hi and give a suggestion or two you're sorely mistaken.

You also have the first semester or so to get used to college classes so you'll be able to tell if you can handle it. Personally I've been lucky enough to have been taking two college classes a semester for the last two years, so I guess I've had an easier transition into tougher classes and workloads. Four college classes, I've heard, is roughly equal to 2 college classes and 4 high school classes (I have brothers who did the same thing), so I'm reasonably sure I'll be able to handle it.

Part of the reason I think I might be able to help out 1714 in the skills I'm good at (programming / strategy), though, is that the programming group is going to be almost all new people this year, and many of the rookie members kind of sort of look up to me. I was a leader for one of our rookie Vex teams this year, so having me in a mentor-like role isn't an entirely alien experience.

So if you think you'll be able to throw your break away for your team, handle all of the stress of college on top of helping out your FIRST team, and be able to actually _act_ as a mentor around people barely younger than you, then it is certainly possible.

Re: College student mentors
 

This has more to do with who you are as a student. As a student, I was a leader and a teacher among the students. When I became a mentor, I just fell into the role naturally. Sure, it took some work to distance myself from the students. But it was well worth it. However, if I was a goof on the team as a student. It wouldn't have worked so well. It really depends on the person.

Earning respect is only half the job of getting it. If you really want respect, you need to command it.

Re: College student mentors
 

Really it comes down to you talking the teacher into it, your friend needs to sell themselves to that person on what they will bring to the table from a mentors perspective....how will they be able to fit in with the culture productively after being a high schooler there? what tangible areas are they fit to lead in or contribute too? your friend should think of it from the teacher's perspective: Why am I keeping this person from participating? What are my concerns with bringing back this person?

Once you are able to answer some of these questions you'll have a better idea of where you fit in. These are adults and they have a rational self interest in keeping the team together, focused, and on track. Unless your friend is able to put some of the teacher's concerns to rest and demonstrate a focused, mature attitude toward mentoring I doubt he/she will be interested.

Or you can just do what I and many others have done....start your own team and watch the sparks fly. Yes it is possible to do this and graduate in four years with decent grades if you know how to balance and prioritize.

Re: College student mentors
 

The question that first comes to mind, is your friend coming back as a mentor or as your friend? Is he coming back to help out or hang out? These are important questions to ask your friend. If they genuinely want to help I see no reason to turn away help provided they can do so in a mature fashion that benefits the team and your friend.

One thing I have learned over the last 2 years of mentoring was that I was not ready for it. I may know enough but I was simply not ready to handle the responsibility. I don't know if your friend is but this is another question he needs to ask himself.

Your friend also should consider that there are many more important things in college than FIRST. Grades are what everyone will say first and foremost but there is also a social aspect. I know that as a result of my involvement with FIRST in college I miss out on a lot of social events.

Officially FIRST has no stand on it but if your teacher doesn't want young college students helping out that is their choice. Ultimately it comes down to your friend, if they feel they are mature enough and the teacher feels they are mature enough then give it a shot. Blanket rules like "No college mentors" are ok so long as it is possible to make exceptions. Never forget, sometimes a college student needs FIRST more than the students they are mentoring.

Just my $.02

Re: College student mentors
 

I imagine every mentor from 125 could comment on here and offer some insightful piece of information....why? because our entire team is run solely by college mentors.

The difference in our team than most teams is the college base. We are based in a college, not in a single high school. Therefore, our mentors have for the most part come from students who were on FIRST teams in high school, and then came to Northeastern University and decided they want to mentor. It gives our team a very different dynamic.

This thread appears year in and year out. I've posted in them before, but I'll just give my brief opinion.

In the case of a college student coming to mentor a different team than they were on in HS, the transition, while not easy, is not as difficult as someone coming directly from HS and on to mentor the same team. The point has been brought up here already...it is VERY difficult to shed the student image and put on the mentor cap in just a summer (and for some people it could be even less than that). While this doesn't mean it can't be done (we have mentors on our team who were on the team in HS), it still doesn't mean that it should be done, just for the sake of being a mentor.

I can understand any high school students desire to return to their team (FIRST is very very addictive) however you must really make a mature decision. Are you going back to give back? or are you going back just to be back? I'm willing to bet almost everyones first answer is, "I want to give back"...and this honestly is expected as we have been taught that GP and giving back are the right things to do. However consider the fact that for some people, FIRST has been your way of life for 4 years...some of your friends are moving away to college, or moving on with their lives. It is very difficult to give up something like FIRST when it has played such a huge role in your life.

For me, I left team 11 in NJ for team 125 in Boston. When I arrived at the team, I honestly did not know what to expect...was it going to be a big team, small team, student run, mentor run...I didn't know. But the fact remained, I was a college student, on a new team. I had some FIRST experience under my belt, and I was ready to jump back in to FIRST. The first year of 125 for me was a chaotic one. Finding your place as a mentor, in a pool of other mentors is not something that is easily done, especially with the task of the first year of engineering classes and dorm life. However, 4 years later, I am still on 125, still trying to be the best mentor I can.

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise...you cannot be "the adult mentor" as a college student. By "the adult mentor" I am referring to the engineers or parents or old timers on your home teams. However, this doesn't mean you can't be one of the best mentors our there, or someone who leads the team, or someone who runs the show. Being a college student, puts you at close proximity in terms of age to the high school students. For me, I think it's an advantage to college students who have the right attitude. You are able to relate VERY well to what some of the high school kids are going through. The lessons you learned in high school are still relatively fresh in your memory, and the mistakes you learned from are still there as well.

It may not be just robot or team related stuff. It could be applying to colleges, or applying for scholarships...you offer a world of insight that some other adult mentors simply cannot. As time goes by, I think the college student will evolve from:
"5 year FIRSTer" - someone who is mentoring a team for the sake of staying involved in FIRST, whether they can admit that or not to
"The college mentor" - a college student beginning to understand how to mentor properly, and how to establish themselves as someone high school kids can relate to. As well as learning how to distance themselves from the high school students in terms of interaction and "rank"...until finally they become
"The adult mentor" - which is the mentor we all know and love, the one we right WFA entries about, the one who really knows how to carry a team.

For some college students, this transition from "5 year FIRSTer" to "The adult mentor" can never fully happen. This doesn't mean that sometime down the road they won't be an amazing adult mentor, it just means that while in that college timeframe, the mentor/student jsut doesn't have the ability to sort out some of these issues.

However for many college students that transition can occur in the time you are in college. I have seen it happen myself.

Myself, I feel I am still in "The College Mentor" role, however I like that role. I feel I can relate to what some of the high school kids are going through. We can agree on what music to put on in the lab, or we can agree what movie "totally rocked dude". Its a very special dynamic that I don't think everyone in FIRST realizes is there or happening.


The question comes down to, what do you feel you are capable of doing? Making that mature decision to take a year off from FIRST may not be such a bad idea...Looking back at things, I am certainly glad I jumped right into FIRST again after high school but I also can recognize how a year or 2 off can help someone make that "mentor transition" a little bit easier, especially if returning to the same team.

This wasn't as short as I wanted it to be, but I hope my experience going through this transition can help future mentors everywhere.

-Brando

Re: College student mentors
 

There are a lot of good thoughts in this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=69805

Including a long rambling post from yours truly...

I still believe that college FIRST can be an incredible experience, but I always recommend that students focus on their academics and use whatever free time they have to get into non-FIRST related college trouble.

-John

Re: College student mentors
 

This season was my first as a college mentor. I am very glad that I chose to do it and I really enjoyed working with all the great folks on team 1504. Being involved with these kids was a great oppurtunity and I think that it really helped me grow. Being a college freshman, I related to the high school kids very well which I think helped me work better with them. Just ten months ago I was going through AP tests, applying for college/scholarships and trying to get a date to prom. I can give insight into this that adult mentors might not be able to (except the prom one).

Having no relationship with them before joining, was very important i feel.
I know that I would not have had the same experience if I was involved with my high school teams. There are too many kids I have known for several years that I wouldn't be able to differentiate between friend and student. I have known one of the students since he was 10. I still help some of these kids out if they ask me, either on AIM or FaceBook, but I would not be able to be a true teacher and mentor to them if I was involved with them on a daily basis like I can with the students on 1504.

Re: College student mentors
 

I would suggest before you decide to mentor as a College student that you THOROUGHLY read and understand this thread. which specifically addressed this issue. It is stickied at the top of the forum for a reason.