Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

This might be a little over dramatic, but i am bothered by all the complaining about this years game, because i for one, being a six year veteran of FIRST, loved this game, and heres why.


The floor/wheels: Totally changed the game, i loved that, in life, ur not always going to have the same challenge facing you when ur creating machines, we need something to completely throw us for a loop. it makes us better engineers.

The overkill rule: This rule really pushed the ideals of FIRST and tried to teach teams something FIRST always tries to say we are about, professionalism and sportsmanship. In other sports, cocky teams blow out the terrible ones all the time and they never stop, thats not good sportsmanship. FIRST was trying to say, hey we are different, we encourage respecting your opponent by not destroying them. my only complaint is i would have just made it one penalty for tripling their score, and removed the doubling the score

Human Player: Robots in real life are going to interact with people, and have tons of outside sources affecting them, so the robots should not only be able to be good scorers, but be able to evade the human players. It adds another layer of dephth to the driving strategy instead of just drive around, score, repeat, you had to avoid the human player as well


Entertaining to watch: every person that i know that has watched FIRST events with me in the past and not knowing anything about robotics said this year was highly entertaining (over say, overdrive, which was one of the least entertaining games to watch). There was alot of robot interaction, high scoring, and just fun thigns to watch. Games like this and AIM high, IMO attract more spectators.

I'll come back and post more things later as they come to me, i just had to get them off my chest and respond to alot of the hate this game has gotten

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

i agree but for very different reasons.

this game more than any other in my opinion incorporated good strategy and good driving because any team with good enough strategy and driving could take out any other entirely. this lack of dominance by one team in a match made every match a toss up and made it exciting for me.

also i liked how the human players decided matches in which there really weren't any scorers but when there were good scorers they won the matches no matter how good the other human players were.

and i liked how the floor played such a huge role in making the game possible. if this game was played on carpet it would not have worked at all. no one would be able to pin anyone or any trailer and scores would be terribly low unless the teams were really bad. the floor really played into the game well and despite the problem with static i think it was a great decision by the gdc.

lastly i would like to comment on everyone who constantly said this game was boring because it wasn't. sure when no one could score in a match it was boring but that is true for every single game. when the good teams came to play the excitement was unmatched in any other game.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Thank you! finally someone not on my team agrees with me on here

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

You may find some more people that agree with you here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...=Lunacy+review

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I did like Lunacy, and I appreciated that it was a change of pace from past years, however I would not go so far as to say that it is the greatest game ever.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I was a FTC Member at the Championships this year (and FLL Last year), and both years, I went on saturday to watch the FRC competition, and I, as a spectator, found overdrive much more entertaining, although real time scoring, was quite nice.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Lunacy ranks just ahead of Rack and Roll and just behind Aim High on my list of favorite games, but mostly because Overdrive came right before it did. The best way to learn is by facing a variety of challenges, and this game is different from Overdrive in almost every way. Last year's game was nearly a pure display of robot performance, as close to playing in a vacuum as FIRST has been in a while. The fact that there was only two trackballs severely limited the role of the alliances third robot and as a result, most effective robots were able to carry alliances by themselves. This year was almost the exact opposite. The addition of defense and the fact that the goals were on the robots made the least effective robot on the alliance just as important as the most effective one, and made strategy and teamwork integral parts of this game. Human players and super cells added many outside variables for teams to consider, mirroring real life much more closely than Overdrive did. In addition to this, the game is much more entertaining to watch than overdrive was. Overall I really enjoyed this game.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I thought it was an interesting change up, but in terms of entertainment I found it a bit slow and hard to follow. I thought 08' and 07' were a lot better from the stands point of view.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

It's unfortunate your rookie year wasn't a year sooner, otherwise you'd probably have a much different opinion of this year's game. ;)

FIRST Frenzy was probably among the best FRC games of all time. Light years ahead of Lunacy. And while I wasn't around in 2000, some of the older veterans around here will praise that game as the best game of all time. Ever since 2005, all of the FRC games have been very "one-dimensional", and lack the excitement of truly amazing games like 2004 or 2000.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I definitely agree that 2004 was a great game. This years game had basically one thing to do (scoring wise). Where as in 04 you could use the hp to score (same as this year), use the robot to double the score with the doubler ball and hang a robot from the middle bar. I know that year my team was lucky enough to win a regional with specialists in each area. One robot focuses solely on hanging, we focused on hp scoring and dealing with the doubler ball and the 3rd partner played amazing defense and also hung. This year, if you could rack up points in the opponents goal, it was MUCH harder for you to be successful on the field.

Also, being a drive trains guy, I didn't like the lack of impressive drive systems. Sure, people still did swerve/crab systems, but I love to see team with similar system being able to push others clear across the field. Also, the absence of mecanum drives and omni wheels made me sad, I love seeing the insane maneuverablity of robots in the past.

This is all just my $0.02.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

i dont understand how anyone enjoyed overdrive, just my opinion

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

It always amazes how different people's opinions are of the different games. Personally I place Lunacy just second form the bottom of my list, just above Aim High, and I put Rack and Roll at the top of my list, but I know many people who feel just the opposite.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Two words: Hockey sticks. ::safety::

Trobotics (1346) Overdrive robot was wonderfully entertaining to watch.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31070

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I'll start off by saying I respect your and other differing opinions.:)

The whole part about not using wheels we wanted was the very first thing I almost hated. For a lot of teams there was barely any development of previous drive systems (cept for that wicked pseuo crab).

Entertaining to watch? Yea sure. But for the one robot you could actually pay attention to. There was barely ever a match in which you could tell what was going on on the field overall, unlike 04 and 00. (By the way I liked 00 far more than 04 b/c it was the first event I attended with my brother on MORT =D)

Second, I see sportsmanship and professionalism as something you step onto the field with, not what you come off with. Meaning that if a team "blows you apart" or out of the water then how is that them not being professional? YOU as the losing team should know you played your hardest and that the other alliance did too. I don't see teams being maniacal about beating other teams when they know they can. Hell, at our regionals there are teams who can pummel others without really trying, but when we lose to them there is no distaste, there is no contempt, there is no lack of sportsmanship. We all play as we would in any other sport. If FIRST believes this is not the meaning of sportsmanship then perhaps they should reevaluate what professionalism means as well.

+$0.02

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I wasn't around pre 2005. But I thought 06,07, and 08 were awesome games. I agree with Jeff (from FirstCast) that this game was very boring to watch. The 2008 finals seemed to be more impressive to me. I have a different view on this but not being able to USE YOUR OWN WHEELS! Oh well, can't wait for 2010, it might be the ten year aniversary of 2000?

I also agree with what Kyle Love mentioned earlier in this post. Can you handle the carpet?

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Lol something that just reminded me of this.

"President Bush; great president? Or the GREATEST president?"- Stephen Colbert

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I don't understand how anyone enjoyed Lunacy, just my opinion.

EDIT: I guess the internet has trouble with sarcasm, I didn't mean that statement literally.

Luncay wasn't 100% horrid, yes I enjoyed it, but I don't like it compared to other games.

I made my statement because I find it funny Dan is shocked by people criticizing Lunacy, then is so bold to say nobody could like overdrive.

I'm not trying to be mean, I just find it funny.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I don't understand how anyone can not enjoy any FIRST game.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the GDC has never failed.

Every year, we have to work like crazy to design, build and operate our robots
Every year, we are kept awake, thinking of how to make our robots better
Every year, the competitions are as amazing experiences as ever
Every year, someone builds something that makes us go "WOWW!!"
And every year, someone is inspired.

.02

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Well, that is great that you have an opinion. I also have an opinion and it differs from yours. Maybe some day you can understand how people can have different ones.

No seriously, I wasn't a fan of Lunacy, just my opinion. I didnt think it was as amazing to watch as Overdrive. I do believe this is because I too enjoy a good drive train. I also enjoy a cool manipulator. I didnt see any truly awesome ways of scoring this year. (Opinion again, Im sure people will disagree with me here but hey, Im ok with that)

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

This just blows me away. well said

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Lol, i love that people are that upset about my silly comment about overdrive

maybe its because i perfer games that resemble real sports more. I think they are interesting to watch and more accessable to the general public. I feel the best games have high robot to robot interaction, lots of moving game pieces, and clear offense and defensive strategys

i didnt like overdive because there was little to no robot to robot interaction, a single dimension game, and no real defesnsive stratgy since there was to great of a chance of getting a driving backwards violation or contact outside of the bumper zone
i just remember the only match i enjoyed that didn't envolve my own robot or a friends robot was the national finals

on the other hand, i greatly enjoyed watching every match in Aimhigh, matches with interesting robots in Rack and Roll(including starting a "This is Awesome" chant during the match that i believe was the highest scoring match ever in the game) and i LOVED watching games in lunacy


oh and by love that people are upset i mean find it sort of commical and not litterally "YES IM CAUSING CHAOS!"

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I disagree on this point, but being part of the military, my opinion here may be invalid. No matter what the challenge, high explosives always achieve their intent. Always.

Anyway, all satirical opinions aside, this game really did force teams to push the envelope... As long as their newly created envelope fits inside the rigid and ridiculously strict bumper rules.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Every year, at the kickoff I profess to dislike the new game and every year at the end of the season I declare my admiration for that year's game; this year was no exception. I can't wait to see what comes next!

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I thought lunacy was a great game for this year. with the new control system, I thought is was really important to have a game that a decent driving bot could be effective.

Human players were the main scorers for most teams (yes there are tons of examples where this is not true, but sifting through the data HP players accounted for more than 50% of the scoring) which made it more about the team experience.

This year the big programming and chassis stuff was very much controls related. Traction control systems of different levels of complexity yielded distinct advantages.
Creavitity of the fan drive system helped those that had the weight and did their homework. While not necessary to win, the properly implemented system were beneficial.

As far as watching it from the stands, Lunacy had the same problem as Soccer, Hockey, or Demolition Derbies. If you don't understand what is going on it is hard to recognize a great tactic from wreckless hitting.

That being said the rules are much more simple than say Football or "Zone Zeal" where you needed to read a manual before you had any clue what was going on.

Some like people like hockey/soccer, some like football, others like baseball/cricket.

Thank you game design commitee for another wonderful game. In general I like all of the games (but there are usually a few rules that I don't like).

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Craig, I got a good chuckle out of this.

As far as Lunacy being the best game ever, you'll never prove it. Everyone has their favorite game so saying any game was the best ever is just asking for a debate.

Even though I liked Lunacy, Would I say it's the best ever? No. It was my favorite to drive in, by far, after having Driven at various levels in every game since Triple Play. This year was the First year in my memory where a good robot wasn't a win, but a good driver almost always was.

Anyway, at the end of the day, this is about Inspiration and Recognition. I know for sure as I know anything in this world that I was inspired and so were most of you, so I think Lunacy Served it's purpose.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

There were matches that involved real clean defensive strategy that won matches that I recall. I realize that this match did not happen during the regular season, but it proves the point.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

That certainly does not describe Lunacy. There has yet to be a worse game for accessibility to the public in the 9 years I have been doing FIRST.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I didn't like Lunacy for the many reasons. Before I post my reasons, I would like to make something clear: I am not trying to place blame anywhere.

1) The field flooring was way too expensive for teams, especially in this economy.
2) The availability and cost of the balls. How do you design a robot to hold 40 balls when you could only afford to buy about 10?
3) It was boring to watch - at least for me. I could hardly follow what was going on. I prefer a game where a team knows what their score is by looking on the field. Yes, the real-time scoring was there but it was not reliable.
4) Punishing teams for building good robots with the serpentine draft and taking away super cells.
5) Standard wheels for everyone.
6) There were only about 4 types of designs for a robot - BORING!
7) If a team was dead during a match, it killed the alliance. Dead driver stations and other control system issues decided many regionals.
8) Some robot rules were way over-designed and over-complicated such as the bumpers.

The outcome/good:
1) The game let teams who were nobody last year emerge as champions at regionals. But it was not because they were able to build a good robot - it was because of luck, standard robot designs, and a game that leveled the playing field for everyone.
2) The new look of the playing field was different and kind of exciting. The concept of the game is really cool and a change from the carpet was welcome. Just not for a game like Lunacy.

Overall, I cannot say that I liked Lunacy at all. In my book, it goes down as being one of the worst games ever. Sometimes I feel that the rules butcher the fun of the competing. I'm looking forward to a more exciting 2010 season.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Thanks! But I seem to recall a cute little two-wheeled purple machine that helped knock us out in the quarter finals was pretty cool, too. Just another example of multiple solutions to a similar problem.

One thing I consider when looking at "best game ever" descriptions is what use a competitive robot can be put to in the post-season. In other words, are the machines... on their own... as cool as they are when they are playing the game?

In that respect, I think Aim High gave our team it's best legacy in terms of an entertaining demo robot. Combine that with the fact that the game, itself, was exceptionally cool and relatively easy to watch, understand, and score in real time, and that would count as my "best game ever".

I have yet to experience a "bad" game, however, and have enjoyed them all. This year the playing field was certainly an interesting change-up. I was expecting maybe some type of pea-gravel pit, or perhaps a barrier for robots to go under (or over), but the low-friction idea was fun and will keep teams from getting too specific on their off-season drivetrain R&D for a few years to come.

And while I'll certainly give the GDC credit for coming up with these game ideas, really, the reason they are fun is because of the ingenueity and attitude that the teams bring with them to the competition. The GDC deserves credit for putting together a good game, but we are the ones that turn it into a great game.

Jason

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Agreed.

Every parent I talked to this year said they had no clue what was going on. Having 6 mobile goals and 120+ game pieces flying around everywhere is a lot more confusing than 4 balls, 4 lines and 2 bars.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Same here. It was the only game since 2000 that my grandparents actually had to ask my brother and I, "What's the point of this?"

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

That's why 2000 was such a great game. I'll explain the 2000 game in 4 lines:

- There's one Red Goal and one Blue Goal (for the Red Alliance and Blue Alliance). The goals are in the center of the field and don't move.

- Score balls in the goals - yellow balls are worth 1 point, black are 5 points.

- A robot hanging on the bar is worth 10 points and a robot parked on the ramp is worth 5 points.

Oops, that was only three lines.

Here's a picture to make the above description crystal clear:

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I totally agree with Cory...
While it was sort of fun to play....

The general public had a very difficult time following the game.
Much of the time it was difficult to see who was scoring and on whom...

The movement of the Empty Cell to the loading station was almost impossible to see for the spectator unless they were watching one robot very closely...and the supercell entry was also difficult to watch.

We took our entire school to the regional and the comments I received were much more of the "what was going on?" type of comment.

They had difficulty figuring out which robots were on which teams...(even though the trailers had red and blue colored bumpers...) It was difficult to see the bumpers at times in melees...

Because the robots started from all over the field it was also difficult to figure out which robots were on which alliances...

Very difficult for spectators to appreciate the nuances of the game when teams were pinned for long periods of time... etc etc..

Even though I was not overly fond of Overdrive... it was easy to cheer for the Red Alliance when the big RED ball went over the bar...

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I disagree. I've been talking to my classmates about FIRST for a few months, and during build season I'd mention stuff about Overdrive and Rack and Roll, and it would take people awhile to get it. Overdrive wasn't so bad, but Rack and Roll's grid system wasn't spectator friendly.

When I showed people Lunacy it was a lot simpler. I could basically say "well, it's like basketball with hoops called "trailers" behind each robot. 6 humans try to shoot balls in the trailers, and robots can either get balls from humans or pick up missed shots to score on opponents. There's a special ball that can be brought to the corner to activate a green ball worth more points". Then they'd get it.

My parents when watching Lunacy matches knew what was going on without having to ask any questions other than "what's the green ball do".

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

It's easy to understand basically what's going on in Lunacy, but it is very hard to actually follow the action itself. If you don't pick one robot and follow it around the whole match you are just going to get lost.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I have the same feeling and I'm sooooo waiting for 2010. This game was a drag and I hate fridge bots. There were some impressively designed bots, but overall I was not impressed.

But I will say this game was necessary/needed when introducing so many new things to FIRST aka the Controller.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

And a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FJFbvHRyco

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

It's not that difficult to explain the basic premise of Lunacy. The problem is it's nearly impossible for the casual spectator to follow and extremely boring.

I find it boring watching all the matches with a 4 robot cluster stuck in one corner for 1:30. I can't imagine how boring that must seem to people who have no idea what FIRST is and have never seen a robotics competition before.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Id like to change my vote to 2000 for best game ever :D

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

As a driver, I loved it. It was very complicated and made strategy so much more fun then Rack N' Roll (just my opinion). On the other hand, the G14 overkill rule was very annoying. It discouraged teams to play to the best of their ability. In fact, I thought it was a little socialist in nature. "Let's keep everyone equal and not hurt people's feelings." <--- that's not life and after all, we are there to compete. (note, gracious proffessionalism is great, but in my opinion G14 was a little too far).

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I don't like how people have interpreted G14 as punishing good play. People have decided that "good play" ought to be "score as many balls as possible in your opponents trailer". Nowhere is this the stated goal of the game. Just because people want to have the goal of score as many as possible be consequence - free doesn't mean it's punishing good play; on the contrary, it's punishing those who don't know of the rule's existence and try to circumvent it.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Maybe I'm missing your point, but:

From 7.1 in the rule book: The object of the game is to attain a higher score than your opponent by placing the GAME PIECES in the TRAILERS hitched to the opposing ALLIANCE’S ROBOTS.

I think 'trying to score as many balls as possible' is certianly a way to attain a higher score than your opponent.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Man I have a bad habit of making mistaken posts that get corrected by you, huh :/

Well, my point is more along the lines of "it's part of the game so by trigerring it, you're _not_ playing well regardless if you want to be or not".

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I believe this is only the 1st time I 'corrected' you as the first time was more of a difference of opinion....I could be wrong though.

Anyway, I see your point. A team complaining about having a G-14 against them is like saying a certian football team 'would be amazing, if they had a quarterback'. In both examples, the teams brought the disadvantage on themselves (Scoring more than 2X their opponent and not signing Garcia in 2006).

In my opinion G-14 has been way over-blown. What percentage of matches were really determined by it? How much did it really prevent FIRST from achieving its goals?

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I cannot give you that data but I can show you how many matches caused a G14 to be called. From here you can determine if it is even worth looking at its affect.

I have attached 5 images (apparently you can only attach 5 files to a post, go figure) They are just some quick little graphics I tossed together. Each circle represents a match on the specified field. A red circle is a red win and a blue circle is a blue win. The intensity of the circles show how much the win was by, an intense blue means blue blew out red. A green dot denotes that a g14 penalty was assessed against the winning team (based purely on score, I assumed penalties were nonexistent just for the sake of having a quick program.)

Look at the occurrence of green dots and decide if G14 even had enough of an impact to warrant discussion. (And remember, they are just dots)

(I do have an image generated for all the regionals, these are based on the FRCFMS data so your mileage may vary, and these are available should anyone want them.)

EDIT: Anyone who has any suggestions on how to make the images more useful feel free to PM me.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I think part of what was boring was that there were technically 12 things (6 bots, 6 trailers) on the same size field that usually has 6. This made it kind of congested, and many matches happened where there was a big clump in the middle. The other thing I didn't like about Lunacy was the super cell. Basically a human player had the ability to change the victor in a match that was within 15 points on both sides. I rarely ever saw a robot score a super cell. I like human players, but I liked them best in 07, where they existed, but couldn't influence a matches outcome. The one thing that I don't really feel bad about criticizing is G14, you can't penalize people for doing well. Period.

Don't get me wrong on these comments though, I thought Lunacy was a good game. It was fun to play and especially fun to strategize in. Above I am simply pointing out the aspects of the game that I thought could have been a little better. Overall I thought Lunacy was great, but I did like the two previous years a little better.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

As someone who's been around since pre 2004 in FIRST. Here are my deep profound thoughts on Lunacy. Lunacy was............................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................................ok. Basically, I didn't think much of the game at all.

-Drew

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

This is a really good point. Our team has activated the rule 2 or 3 times, and every time we were in a position to get a G14, we had an alliance of high scoring robots, and we weren't using the Supercell anyway. There was a minor "uh oh we did too good" psychological effect, I guess?

I can count the number of matches on one hand that I saw where 4 Empty Cells were converted. And if you were a team like 1986 (or occasionally 217) that lived and breathed the empty cell, matches were generally close enough that you would know that you don't need to throw a Supercell, as 1/3rd of your scoring is dedicated to... not scoring. At the same time, you really wouldn't need the Super Cell in matches that the opponent scored less than 35 / 40 points in unless it was obviously close enough to matter (say, only HPs scored the whole time). And once your opponent has 40 or so points, the RT scoring is decent enough that if it's showing a 25-30 point lead, you'll (probably) win without throwing an empty cell.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I'm slightly confused by your post. While I do not really agree with G14, I understand why the rule exists. However, the post you quoted in your response is referring to how many times G14 actually had a play in a match. G14 would be affecting the match after you "activated" the rule...not during.

I don't think its many, but it is also impossible to say what might have happened if...

Just clearing that up, please correct me if I am misinterpreting what you are saying.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I mean Lunacy was fun, but best game ever??
my vote goes to overdrive.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

What I meant was if we were doing well enough at a regional to activate G14, we weren't converting empty cells. Empty cells have been our team's "backup plan".

The other point was that if you convert empty cells you usually have a better gauge of the match score

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Q: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever?

A: No.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I agree that super cells scored by robots happened very few times. At Finger Lakes and Toronto, 188 seemed to do it a couple times. There was one match in Atlanta that I saw it happen too, seen here. Overall, there was just not enough time for this to happen.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

i don’t know who you were talking to but everyone I've talked to says they were bored out of their minds with this year’s game. I thought overdive was boring to watch, but at least during the finals on Einstein it was intense and sort of exciting to see how fast those teams could score. This year those on Einstein were so good at dodging that it hardly mattered that they had an incredible scoring device. There was no real last second exciting finish like with the ramps of 06 & 07 or the hanging bar in 04. Yes one can argue that the supercell was exciting, but it was hard to see which human player had one, and then they didn’t always use it, and rarely made it.

I did like how they really changed up the playing field and made veterans come out of their shells. However the bumpers seemed to really limit the design potential. While I don't like bumpers at all, I do see where they have a purpose, and it acts as a design constraint just like ones found in the "real world."

My $0.02 summary of the past 5 years:

05-great strategy, heavy objects lifted over 10ft, control a must, end game line not really important
06-similar to basketball, easy to explain, fast paced high scoring, bonus ramp
07-great strategy, work together to lift each other off the ground
08-almost no strategy, easy to score, manipulate huge balls, end game had little impact, limited human player
09- no apparent strategy, new playing surface, human player is key, end game hard to see and had little impact

Those are just the games i have actually seen.

I would agree with most that the best game was 04.

IMHO Lunacy=worst game in at least 6 years

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

While I understand and partially agree with most of your concerns, I think Lunacy was one of the most strategy-oriented FIRST games in recent memory. You had to think 20 seconds ahead the whole time to win. I mean, it's certainly better than 2008 strategy wise, which was pretty much equivalent to Nascar in terms of strategy required.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

Theres always a strategy regardless...but was their really a strategy you had to execute during the match, or was it more of a gameplan you tied to follow?

Maybe the terms gameplan and strategy can be used interchangeably, I'm not sure. However, you say you need to think 20 seconds ahead...but is that really possible? I mean you can anticipate something is going to happen based on scouting, or experience, but can you really follow the same "strategy" through the entire match?

I don't think you can. Some of the best teams had a "gameplan" they executed wonderfully. I saw 121 execute the same general gameplan, match in and match out all year...yet they dominated, rightfully so. They would simply collect balls by driving in a loop towards the middle of the field, find a target and dump...rinse and repeat. Is this a strategy that changed a lot for them? nope...and it didn't matter..they still did extremely well, regardless.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

To add on to this, consider a situation where you know you are going to lose. Do you really want the other team to sandbag half the match because of an arbitrary rule, knowing that they still have a clear victory? I would feel insulted if I played someone and they didn't respect me enough to give it their best, regardless of the strength of the two alliances or the scores after.

It's almost taunting... as if FIRST is making the victors say "We know we can beat you by so much we need to slow down so we don't get penalized," without even having to say it.

And if a team tries to avoid a G14 but ends up causing a loss due to poor real-time scoring, do you think the rule got the desired effect? It could certainly happen; realtime scores could often be off by more than 20 points per alliance. Also, do not forget 188's strategy in GTR. If they managed to get the triple G14 they might have won the entire event.

Understand that it is not the effect of the rule on this game (which was important, but not completely gamebreaking), but the concept of penalizing teams for being to effective at the stated goal of the game that I have a problem with.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

The line was a lie!
The real endgame in 2005 was last the second change in goal ownership, and it was one of the more exciting endgames (imho).

Who needs a silly gimmick to have a "climatic finisher". I think some of the best game designs are the ones that are naturally exciting down to the buzzer, and even build in intensity as they approach the end.

It seems like we've gotten locked in this paradigm of "if it doesn't have a ramp, then the end isn't exciting...this game sucks because it doesn't have a ramp."

-John

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I actually thought the 08 end game was similar to the 07 one. You were just waiting till the last second for that ball to end up on top or get knocked off at the last second or for the robot in 07 to get on the ramp.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

i feel the same way. i have just grown tired of seeing the same teams win every year because they have built a robot based on speed. this year really required the strategy, and i loved every minute of it.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

its not penalizing.... it to me appears more as a strategy generator than anything. it causes more heated battles. of course i think it is only a fair rule if both alliances have a real time score in their sight. but i think it is a good rule, because it provides the need for a strategic plan

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I'd have to agree. It was a challenge of where to place that last tetra. The Championship was won by one carefully placed tetra that simultaneously destroyed a row and created one. Not a single alliance on Einstein went behind the line. The one who placed last, tended to win. My team placed one tetra in the last seconds of F2, with just enough time to clear it before the buzzer. It was a 23-point swing in 2 seconds. (- 1 row for opponents, +1 row for us, +3 points for another tetra for us) And the whole match had been a race to place and own, as 6 of the best teams in FIRST--64, 254, 67, 503, 330, and 56-- did their best to outscore each other, creating such sights as this and this.

Why do something that gives you a 10-point swing when you can get a 23-point swing?

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I agree with JVN, I also really liked Triple Play in 2005. I have coached FRC for 12 years now. 2005 was the probably the only year where you could pretty much always find a strategy to win if you understood your opponent and knew how to play.

All of us are faced with the proverbial "death match" some time during the season... this is the qualifying match in which you have two weak partners and you are facing 3 veteran opponents. In most games, you can figure out on paper beforehand that there is basically no way that you can win this one unless the other team screws up royally. 2005 was different, if you played it right, almost every match was winnable. It was a fun game to coach, since timing and diversionary tactics were a big part of the game.

To comment on the original topic of this thread; No Lunacy was not the best game ever, but it was pretty good. It was fun to play, but hard to follow for the audience. 12 things on the field made it crowded even with no stationary field objects. It had plenty of exciting moments, but also a lot of endless traffic jams.

I didn't really like the smooth surface. It took away a lot of the impressive dynamics of FIRST robots, it cost a lot of money, it had many issues with static, it made the game more boring for spectators, and anyone who thinks it somehow took advantage away from veterns is incorrect...if you look at the final season results you will see that there were just as many carry-over winners as in any other year. Last year, 67 and 217 were in the Finals in Atlanta, this year 67 and 217 were there again. Teams that have a process for solving problems will solve any problem that you throw at them. Nothing the GDC will ever do can magically take advantage away from the experienced teams.

I want to play Lunacy on carpet!!!! ( I should have suggested this to the IRI rules committee :) )

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I enjoyed Lunacy more than most people did, but it was not the greatest game ever. I am sure it is hard to watch from the outside, but I loved sitting and watching teams go back and forth in this game. When you put good teams on both sides of the field it was always entertaining. This game rewarded you for utilizing every single member of your alliance, but also allowed single strong teams to be successful. This game is one of my favorites, because it was an interesting challenge that required teams to tackle the challenge from many different angles. I think it was a good way to ease into the new control system, having a challenge that was not as hard as previous years, but still unique and interesting.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I would have to say that lunacy was fun ish to build in, but not spectator friendly. Family members and friends said they saw emphasis on human players and a hard score to follow.

2005 is my favored year. Like Eric said, the last few seconds of the match could really swing the end result. Then would come 2004, 2006, 2008, 2007, 2009, 2003. These are all my personal spectator favorites.

Re: Lunacy = Greatest Game Ever
 

I've only seen Overdrive and Lunacy, and a little of the 07 game.

At the Lunacy kickoff, I think everyone kind of had a "what the...?" moment, but as time went on, it became clear that there was more to the game than met the eye.

I didn't like that the end game bonus (the super cells) was almost entirely human player oriented, but other than that, this made a great game. It was less linear, IMO, than Overdrive, despite having less scoring options, because the movement of the robots was less controlled.

Plus, I've always had a weakness for slip and slide movement.