FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

This FIRST-a-holic's viewpoint is that adults should not be a part of the drive team as coaches. Does your drive team consist of an adult? What are your reasons?

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As one of the volunteers at the Michigan Districts, I got an up close look at the different drive team participants. While some of the teams use students as the drive team mentors. Most still use adults as the drive team mentors.

I'm curious, is your drive team mentor a student or an adult and why?

I'm a firm believer that there should be NO ADULTS on the drive team. I believe that each team has at least one mature student (we can find 2 each year) that can lead the team on the competition floor. An adult mentor should be used to mentor the drive team student mentor but should stay in the background. This is another opportunity for a student to learn skills that will be useful in the business world.

I believe that it is time for FIRST to change this rule. Most teams will need to be forced into letting the students take on this important role. The adult drive team mentor is the same as letting the baseball coach be the pitcher or the football coach be the quarterback. It's time to let your robot team mature and use students as drive team mentors.

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Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Our team has determined that whoever can come up with the best and most effective strategies is the person who should be the coach. It just so happens that each year our students are better at that than the mentors.

The adult might be better suited under pressure. The student might be. Regardless, if the team believes that the guidance of the students in FIRST is carried out onto the field, then by all means the adults should be the coaches.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Our team's students have typically decided in the past few years that one of our explicit goals is to win competitions. It turns out that we have a highly experienced adult mentor with a good sense of strategy who commands respect on the field as a drive coach. Not to take advantage of that resource would reduce our competitiveness.

In some years, the team has had a strong goal of being very student-focused, and we have had a student coach. It depends on what the team wants to get out of the experience.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Team 461 has used an adult mentor as drive coach since I can remember (2003). We have used a student coach once, for fun, at IRI in 2006.
In addition, most (if not all) of our coaches have also had previous experience as FIRST drivers/operators. Part of FIRST is learning from the professionals (our team mentors and engineers), and who better to learn from on the field than those with previous on-the-field experience.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Actually, since the coach can't touch field pieces or controls, FRC coaching is just like baseball and football. Not being allowed on the field is like coaching from the locker room with no infleunce on the evolving game.

The rules allow you to use your most qualified person for the job and I don't see why this is a bad thing, nor do I see why you would impose an additional constrant on that.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

There is no reason to not allow adult coaches onto the field. If the idea is to give students another chance to gain experience and become leaders, then that is fine. However, I believe it should be up to the team if a student could be best served being a coach or holding some other position. I find that being in charge of the pit, the scouting, or anything else going on at an event is much more important and a student can learn much more than from just being the drive coach.

One would assume that an adult coach has more experience and expertise than a student coach (if this is not the case, then the argument is not longer adult/student, but who is fit for the job). If a team is intending to do well, this experience can help tremendously and should not be wasted.

In the original post, the FIRST-aholic mentioned that they are able to find suitable student coaches every year, which is excellent. Not every team is blessed with such a gift. I have met many students who could have been great coaches, but simply wanted to be in the pit working on the robot, in the stands scouting or be a driver/operator/HP themselves.

From what I have seen, there have been no problems with adult coaches in FIRST. This my be my New Hampshire attitude, but why place unnecessary rules on something that just doesn't need them. If a particular team has an issue with adult coaches, they should be sure not to use them and let the other teams run their organization they way they want.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

As much as possible, our team is student led. With about 40 students on the team, we feel getting as many students involved on the drive team is one of the ways we inspire our students. Each year we have many qualified students and the coach position allows for more student participation on the drive team. We have used student coaches for the last 5 years. The only problems I have seen is some of the adult coaches on an alliance may not take our student coach seriously. One of the qualities that we look for in a student coach is the confidence to speak up and lead, not just our team, but an alliance if necessary.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

No, the adult drive team COACH is the same as letting the "baseball COACH" be......the baseball COACH. How many "player-managers" do you see in high school athletics? Not many, if at all.

Adult mentors often are able to teach some of the most poignant lessons in communication, teamwork, patience, honesty, organization, and efficiency from their position as drive team coach. If a team is fortunate enough to have a student who possesses these qualities, then by all means, they may *choose* to employ that person in that role. There are notable teams who have done this, with great success. Otherwise, do not *force* teams to shoehorn student resources into roles they are not yet equipped to assume.

Many students do eventually develop into great drive team *mentors*......once they graduate from high school, and only after soaking in the experience of working with so many effective *adult* drive coaches throughout their student experience. I doubt they would become so effective had they only ever worked with student drive coaches during their careers.

Besides, would YOU like to be the one to tell Raul Olivera, Andy Baker, Paul Copioli, JVN, Adam Freeman, Brian Beatty, etc. they're "retired" and must now pass on their leadership and guidance through a "middleman"? Good luck with that. :cool:

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Oh dear... the "adult vs. student" coach argument comes up a lot. Most people are pretty set in their beliefs and this discussion often ends up getting angry, but it is nice to see the benefits of both. I am a firm believer that both options can work well, and that neither is "right". One may work better given the dynamics of one team, while another team might find the other option.

I come from a team which has always been student coached. I was the student coach or one of the student coaches (the multiple drive teams argument is for a different day ;)) for all three years that I was a student member of my team. My team's initial thought, back in the day, was to allow students to coach because we wanted to be very student-run, and to empower the students to be leaders by allowing them many opportunities to be in control of what was going on around them. Whether or not you think this was a good reason for them starting this, it has become tradition for us and has stuck with the team since then. Having been the student coach, I have definitely seen benefits. It allows for a different type of drive-team chemistry and close-knit bonds, because it is all students working together. I really like this about it. It does empower the students and foster additional team-building skills, self-confidence, etc. As a student coach, I also interacted with the other teams not just to strategize before our matches, and check out other robot designs, but I also talked to the same people about alliance pairings. This made that job so much easier because the bonds were already there... and I enjoyed networking and meeting all those new people. I learned a lot from our previous coach, who was fantastic. I also had somewhat of a knack for strategy to begin with (as did he). Because we were competent strategically, our lack of experience compared to some adult coaches was not necessarily apparent. However, if a team has a student coach who isn't strategizing or leading or interacting well, maybe it's not the right option for them. For our team, having a student coach worked really well and was terrific.

For other teams, an adult coach is definitely the way to go. It is not "cheating" by any means, and I don't know why anyone would consider it such. Adult coaches are role models and very inspirational. There are many adult coaches on other teams that I look up to, and I know that the students on their teams value them and admire them even more than I do. Having a figure like this on a team, or at a competition for other teams to meet, is also important. Also, adult coaches bring some other valuable assets to a drive team. They are often much more experienced than student coaches, having been involved in FIRST for a long time. They have seen more on the field, and may have a better feel for strategy with interesting tricks up their sleeves. They are an authority figure, and should be representing the team well, acting with dignity, and garnering respect. They are probably better able to handle many tough situations, and can express themselves carefully. Not to say that student coaches can't have these attributes, or that all adult coaches are perfect either, but in general these traits are found far more often in adult coaches.

I think we need a mix of both student and adult coaches on teams. They both bring value to the program. While student coaching was great, I don't think my experience would have been the same without adult coaches as role models. I aspire to be one of these "rock stars" of the program one day... and having that sort of positive, I-want-to-inspire-people attitude has made me a better person. Teams should choose whichever coach works for them the best, and leave other teams alone to do the same without judging them or ruling their choice of coach unfair. These interesting situations like the coach question are all part of what makes FIRST interesting.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

To remove the adult coaches from the positions across the board, would weaken FRC, not only in the competition, but in general. There is a depth of wisdom that brings added dimension, skill level, and respect to FRC because of this aspect of it. A very important part of the FRC competition is to expose high school students to the skills and knowledge of professionals. If you remove the adult coaches from the field, then you are basically building a ship without a rudder. Each FRC team decides how it will build itself, how it can best showcase its strengths and talents, and how it can compete successfully. If that decision is removed from the team by a mandate from FIRST, then the ship will sink in harbor without having a chance to find the horizon on its own power.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Then why can't an FRC team choose to have adult drivers?

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

The position of coach is an opportunity for coaching, as stated. In my opinion, if teams chose to have an adult coach, this presents further opportunity for a mentoring partnership to continue. If the drive team is comprised of adults, then that changes the partnership, placing the students on the sideline as observers. Working partnerships are much different than being sidelined and removed from the drive team, forcing the student into the role of no more than a fan of the adults.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Over the past couple years in a large number of Dean's speaches we have heard him adress teams who are student run, no adult mentors. He says they're missing the point. FIRST is different than every other robotics competition because of the adult involvement, and that's what makes FIRST competitive and so educational. Adult engineers, teachers, and coaches are the reason this organization has succeeded, you can beg for the rule change and justify your argument (I do see where it's coming from), but quite frankly it's not going to happen. FIRST runs because of these people, they put the time in to inspire students, but how is it inspiring to watch your beautiful and elegant machine with the potential to dominate lose because of a strategic error that the students couldn't correct on their own, it's discouraging to the mentors and the students. I'm not saying the students can't coach, I'm saying the adults have more experience and can return year after year bringing back their knowledge.

However in offseason events I see an excellent way to test this idea. I know in the past at offseasons we've had student coached drive teams and switched up our drivers, the offseason is a learning experience and although it is competitive, not nearly as much is on the line. I coached at IRI in 2007 as a sophomore and had a blast, but to be honest I had no clue what I was doing and we would have done much better with an adult, we ended up dead last and not picked. Perhaps if I had more experience it would have gone better, but how can I get that experience if I only have 4 years (if even that because few teams would give drive coach to a freshman).

If it was possible for a high school student to have the experience Paul Copioli does and to make plays like he does, I'd be all for student coaches. But, in my opinion, it would be a large hinderance to a majority of teams who currently use an adult.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

I'm going to quote this post from this thread (on the same topic).

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

This exact discussion comes up often on these forums. I recommend that everyone takes a look a thread from about a year ago:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=67426

There are some GREAT posts in here that shed a lot of light on the issue. Pay special attention to the posts by Ken Patton, JVN, Rick Tyler, Kate Mosley, Tom Bottiglieri, Andy Baker. Oh yeah, here's what I said:

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=67426

Old Thread worth reviving. A lot of discussion here. I will throw out my viewpoint and never open this thread again lol. I don't want to get back into this debate (and sometimes argument). I think that it is truly up the team what they want to do. I personally am a coach. I have been since sophomore year. I plan on continuing into college as a coach. Our first year, we had a mentor coach and for the rest of the years we've had students. I know some amazing student and adult coaches out there. It's all up to the team and what they're looking for. Some student coaches are better than mentors and vice versa. Karthik said it best. "Communication is key in a drive team. You need to pick someone the drivers respect as a coach." For most cases, this is usually an adult. But sometimes they are not the best ones for the job.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

We went though this same discussion this year, all of the arguments were the same, and the conclusion was in favor of a student coach.

But, consider that our team does not consider winning a regional as a very high priority. Not that winning is bad, or teams that focus on winning are bad - it's just how our team works, and our values. Like smurfgirl wrote, it depends upon the dynamics of the team.

Banning adult coaches would be a mistake, as the opportunity for adult coaching & mentoring that some teams use here is very valuable.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

This seems to be a universal thought in this thread so far. In short, I hear "we use an adult because it gives us a better chance to win". My take on this: Who Cares? Honestly, FIRST isn't about winning. It is about learning. If you sincerely think that choosing an adult as coach improves the learning of the team as a whole, I respect your decision. However, if it is just to win, I ask this...Who is winning? If you are hindering learning, then the team loses. I have said it many times, but I'll say it again. I feel more like a "winner" when the students learn and we place last, then I would ever feel going to nationals if I did anything to hinder education.

I think Dean is missing a point. Honestly, I know I'm speaking heresy here. Sure, for some the point of FIRST is about the adults working side by side with students. But for some of us, FIRST is about something else. For me it is about educating the students. Period. I honestly don't care what Dean or Woodie expect for people to get out of FIRST. Often a person gets something different out of a gift then is expected by the giver. I think the point of FIRST is different for each and everyone of us.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

I'm rather tired of hearing the "FIRST isn't about winning, it's about learning" argument.
First off, FIRST's primary mission is to "inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership."
While learning may be part of the way your team achieves that goal, FIRST isn't "about learning." The word learning isn't even in their mission statement. To say that it FIRST is about learning is merely creating a straw-man argument, and to imply that students don't learn while there is a mentor-coach is ignorant.
Beyond that, the FIRST Robotics Competition is just that, a COMPETITION. Winning is the ultimate goal of the competition, and to ignore that is nothing short of foolish. The competition aspect of FIRST is one the most powerful inspirational tools it has, and it is part of what sets it apart from many other engineering programs.

And what part of having a mentor coach prevent students from being educated? If you read this thread, and more importantly the one that was linked three posts in a row (by Karthik, Josh, and myself), you'll see that many teams use the adult coach as way to further educate their students.
Would you want a student teaching a calculus class instead of a teacher so that student can get a better education? No, you want the person most qualified to educate and help the students succeed.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Build tough and come to play - is a phrase I use a lot when working with teams. I also use it at work when talking to and training staff members. I also use it in my personal life. It can convey a lot in a brief message.

'Build tough and come to play' can be applied to the FRC team structure. It's that simple. Use your best assets, they are there at your disposal. The rest will take care of itself.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

I respect the decisions of teams on both sides of the fence. Many posters here have made the point that a coach needs to be chosen on a basis that fortifies the dynamic and goals of the team and I can not agree more. I can see where students can learn as a coach, and where students can learn by being coach by an adult. I do want to make the point that in both cases, there will be a few lessons unlearned. Unfortunately, we must accept this, and determine which is better for the team as a whole.

However, I want to give everyone another student's perspective based on my own experiences. In the case of an adult coach, the drivers are able to soak in a portion of the same lessons they could learn as the coach themselves. On 148, the drivers are often left to speak with other teams and form alliance cohesion for upcoming matches while our adult coach is off doing other things. As a two year JVN coached driver, I'm learning how to act, speak, and conduct myself as a professional in a gracious manner on the field, off the field, and in communication with other teams, just like I would coaching*.

There are simply too many ways drive teams can work to determine one specific way of running one. I can only speak for myself, but I feel that with an adult coach on 148, I have in no way missed out on any lessons I could possibly learn. I'm not sure that I would feel comfortable or be trusting enough of another student to coach me through matches. However, I have had the great pleasure of working under JVN, a great teacher and friend, so my opinion may be biased.

Wanting to win isn't necessarily a bad thing either. You can't say that winning and learning are opposites and take away from each other, because they simply don't. Winning will teach you to act with grace, professionalism, and humility. A large lesson every student on 148 had to learn last year was to win with humility. One way that some people look at winning and losing is which one you have more fun with. Personally, I have more fun when I'm doing well, whether it be sports or robotics. Winning builds confidence, and gives students an incentive to work hard. Many Wranglers worked harder than ever this year, soaked in everything they could from our mentors, and learned how to work hard under pressure, all because they wanted to go for two. Winning can be a tool of inspiration. Inspiration is what this is all about after all right?

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*148 is blessed enough to be able to compete in the VEX Robotics Competition with multiple robots. We take this opportunity to use student coaches, and I'd like for every team to think about using this as an identical opportunity for themselves. If your students feel that they want to be a coach, this is a great chance for them to gain the experiences that student coaches can earn. By competing in both competitions this way, your team will be able to get the best of both worlds. Maybe you can even use this as a chance to evaluate the best way your students learn and make a decision on how to run both teams in the future.


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...but that's just my view. :)

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

I just wanted to make this part of my previous post to stand out. IF you think the adult coach improves the learning, I fully agree you should have the adult as a coach. HOWEVER, if you have some other motive... that is where I am questioning above.

If you believe that you are improving the learning environment in having an adult coach, my previous post has absolutely no relevance to you. That post is for the teams that are doing it solely for the "competitive advantage".

Also, I thought I'd give a perspective on this analogy.

I once took a class where the teacher gave a 10-minute lesson at the beginning of the class, and the rest was group learning. I was the head of my group, and so in essence I taught the other 3 a lot of what they learned from the class. I learned far more than I would have sitting and listening. Also, the other 3 got far more one on one attention than they would have gotten otherwise.

Another class I took, was my drafting class. I took 2 years of drafting, and the 3rd year I taught other students. I was given a group of 5 students to teach everything I knew. Of those 5, 2 are some of the best draftsmen that school has ever known. Of the other 3, one switched to machining...one switched schools... and the third I honestly don't know what happened.

In both cases, students learned a lot more from learning from students. I am not saying this is best for all cases. I am just saying that it is best in some situations.

Two ideas from my favorite high school teacher is below:

"If you want to really know something, teach it."
"The best teacher learns as much from the student, as the student learns from the teacher."

I have taken these words and tried to live by them. I think most teachers out there would agree with these statements to some extent.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

I'm our team's student drive coach (we call it "strategist" so I might be saying that all through the post). We have an all-student drive team on our team by policy; I think it's because our mentors feel it emphasizes that this is "our time to shine" or something. We have a "strategy panel" of mentors and students to review post match plans (and in exceptional cases, such as qualifiers versus 1625, pre-match plans), but inter-team strategy and the actual match is left to us.

I like this arrangement for our team for a number of reasons. I like that it puts more students in a leadership position. I like that it helps with the strategist / driver dynamic; we can pick the best combination for the job of people that "get each other" and work well together, rather than fitting the drivers that work best with a particular coach.

The best thing about it, though, is that it puts us in a position to make mistakes. Competition strategist is a position where you will make mistakes, and making mistakes is the fastest way to learn. I have personally learned more about tactics, communication, and teamwork through my role than I can even imagine, and I can assure you I would not be as satisfied with my final year in FIRST if I wasn't able to do this. Being an FRC competition strategist was a life changing experience for me.

At the same time, I've wondered if we would have done better of our old strategist, who was absolutely legendary, was allowed to be in the position even though he's now a college mentor. Looking through the matches we lost, I can point to 3 errors I made, and I can't help but think if he were strategist we would have been 2nd seed in Minnesota, or 2nd seed on Newton Field. Ultimately, though, I was personally much more inspired by being thrown into the pressure cooker and told to go than if we were x-finalists in Atlanta.

I imagine the job would be better for the drivers if a team leader were up to the plate with them, though. The guys I was screaming at were older than me and team veterans; as the "new kid" it was at times awkward. A leader is needed for the role, that's for sure, and it's a lot more inspiring for the seasoned veteran coach to go "you did good, kid" than for me to hi-five the drivers and go "hell yeah!"

FIRST is about inspiration. I honestly think that students are much more inspired the more involved they are, but it's different for every team.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Sean has a point in saying that the competition aspect is what matters for many teams.

Jason points out that learning matters most for many teams.

Both coincide in teaching. We choose each year whether or not the mentors will coach or if students will coach. Why does it seem that so many people on here tend to assume that the adults do know more than the students in the coaching aspect? Why do so many on here assume that the adults cannot fulfill an adequate learning environment for their students by being coaches.

It doesn't have to be a choice of "your team needs to decide if they want to win or if they want to learn" type of situation. Teams win all the time with both set ups and teams learn with both set ups. You don't have a make compromises in what type of outcome you want. If there's a student who is clearly better at communications on the field and has better strategies than the leading adult, then definitely go for the student. On the flip side if the adult mentor is clearly better at communicating under pressure on the field and has better strategies then choose them. I honestly don't see why it has to be such a big deal or argument. Test out both student and adult coaches and see who fits just as you would with drivers. Mind, you, the drivers should be the ones deciding who was most helpful for them out on the field.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Oh, really? I, not Dean, am the one that has made the point during the kick-off broadcast that teams choosing to participate in FIRST without professional mentors to work with their teams are missing the point of the program. I find your counter-assertion intriguing. I would be quite interested in learning how I, or Dean, or Woodie, am all wrong and missing the point of FIRST.

But before you answer, I would urge you to carefully research the entire referenced statement, and the context in which it was delivered. Don't rely on second-hand abstractions or someone else's recollection of what was said. Look into it for yourself, and get some direct knowledge of exactly what was being advocated before you form your opinion (he asked innocently, with a pebble resting in an extended palm).

-dave



.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Mr. Lavery... I'm not sure I understand at all. Your first statement points out that you were the one to make the comments, and suggests that "Molten" was in the wrong for suggesting that it was Dean, but the last statement leads me to believe that you expressed just that: yourself, Dean, and Woody are all in full agreement on the subject.

I believe that any person who states that any specific non-extreme team composition is or is not truly in the spirit of FIRST is, himself, missing the point. I will hold fast to my statement regardless of what that person has done or who he is... Everyone needs to be able to take a step back and examine everything that they say impartially. To do otherwise is bullheaded.


More to the point:

It is my opinion that it is up to each team, and each team alone to make the decision for itself. During my time on team 306, we only had a mentor coach during one round, in one year, and I would not have it any other way. Our student coaches had access to a wealth of information that they would not have otherwise. There is no better teacher than experience. Any adult coach can explain the basic strategies of a given FIRST game to a student. Without the student being in the box, and seeing for him or her self exactly how that theory applies in the real world, they have no way of gaining a true understanding. The only way to do that is through Exposure. Which is exactly why we let every student who wished to stand in the coach box do just that. During real matches, that mattered. I have seen NUMEROUS successful, well sponsored teams that use mentor coaches, and do very well for themselves. On the other hand, I have seen numerous drive teams that were afraid to stray from the exact punctuation of their mentor coach's word. I've seen mentor coaches step forward and grab controls when the driver didn't do as he or she was told, and I've seen drivers in tears.

It's called a drive TEAM for a reason, and if an adult coach is using the students as an autonomous extension of himself in the booth, just because the rules prevent him from being a driver... then in my opinion there is something terribly wrong. As I said before, however... Neither extreme is correct. The drive team that takes no input from a coaching mentor is just as poor as the drive team that takes all of its input from one. As I've said before, moderation is key.

Also, according to the FIRST mission statement, it is the job of FIRST "programs" "to foster well rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership." If you ask me, all of those things sound like the job of the coach. In this case, why not let the student learn from hands on experiences exactly what works and what does not?

If your answer was "A shiny gold medallion, and a Trophy!", then you are missing my point entirely.


And one more point that I'd like to talk about. Earlier in this thread it was said that

This statement doesn't make any sense to me either. The actual word "Learning" isn't in the statement, but everyone with a fifth grade vocabulary should know what a synonym is. To "Inspire young people to be science and technology leaders" is to inspire young people to become something they currently aren't, through the entire learning experience. Learning is the core of both science and technology, and if you have forgotten that, they you need to take a long hard look at exactly why you are in this field. "Engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills" So, putting them through mentor based programs that teach (yes, build in this sentence means teach) science, engineering, and technology skills."that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership." In this statement, too... there is mention of learning. The word foster means to advance or cultivate, and when applied to the terms in the above sentence, cannot be taken to mean anything else.

You simply cannot say that the mission statement says nothing about learning. It is referenced in almost every line. It isn't simply part of the way your team realizes their goal, it is the only one mentioned in the mission statement.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Cody: I am reasonably certain that you have interpreted Dave's statement correctly. It would make sense for all three of them to agree on this topic; noting that two of the three have relatives involved either as students or as mentors that were once students, I would say that they have some experience.

I would agree with your statement that it depends on the team. In fact, this is my standard answer for any team-makeup related questions. It's not for one team to decide for another; it's for each team to decide for themselves.

The mission statement says "to inspire". You can be inspired without learning. A pep talk, an example of a heroic move in battle or on the sports field... those inspire you, do they not? Yet they do not teach you.

However, as soon as you add the "mentor-based", teaching (NOT learning--I'll get to that in a minute) is added to the equation. For you cannot mentor without teaching. Not in the traditional "lecture" sense of the word, but in the practical, "this is how I do this" demonstration sense.

Now, teaching != learning and learning != teaching. If I were to teach someone, I would either tell them or show them something, new or not. They then have the choice to learn or not. If they choose not to learn, I cannot force them to. I can ask them not to come if they don't want to learn, as they may easily become a distraction because they are not paying attention or listening, but I cannot force learning. If, however, a student wants to learn and pays attention, they will learn from my teaching. Do you see the difference now?

So FIRST's mission statement is not about learning. It's about inspiring through teaching. Whether or not the students learn is up to them--but I can tell you, the less you put in, the less you get out.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Since I was the one referenced in this statement, though anonymously, I feel I should elaborate. I would also appreciate not having my intelligence compared to a 5th grader, let's keep this civil.

Inspiration and learning are not directly related. FIRST doesn't have to, nor should it aim to, educate students. It may provide an arena for students to apply the material they picked up in physics, computer science, or trig, but FIRST is not responsible for teaching it. FIRST is aiming to inspire students to venture into science and engineering. FIRST wants students to take related-coursework, go to college, and study a related major.
Yes, learning is related to science and technology, but it is NOT equivalent to the inspiration "of young people to be science and technology leaders." FIRST aims to give rise to, bring about, or cause these young people to become leaders in science and technology. FIRST's aim is not to teach them the material.

FIRST clearly states that their programs are "mentor-based" and for teams to turn away mentorship in favor of a "learning experience" clearly violates the spirit and mission of FIRST.
That's is not to say that student coaches violate the spirit of FIRST, but teams should carefully consider the reasons they're doing it (though there are plenty of very valid reasons).

I'm also not saying that learning isn't an important and very relevant issue in FIRST. But it is NOT the primary issue. I don't agree with teams that prioritize learning above inspiration, but that's not to say there's only one way to run a team.

I was on a team that has student coaches, and was a student coach myself for two years. I obviously see the potential and real value in putting students in that position. But I also see the value in mentors in that position, and I definitely learned a lot from the mentor coaches on other teams that I worked with and against.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

To start off, I would like to note that the fifth grade vocabulary comment was meant to gauge the simplicity of the Idea I was trying to state, and not an insult to your own intelligence. After reading it, I realize that it did sound sarcastic and rude, but that was not my intent. I apologize.

Now onto bigger and better things.

You are absolutely correct. I can't believe that I had never thought of it in this light, and truly feel humbled by your post. It clearly states your argument in such a way that (Forgive the reference) a Fifth grader could understand. I can't believe that it took this long for me to see. FIRST is only the entity that holds the competition. It's soul purpose is to showcase students what engineers can do. The student learning part isn't necessary.

While I can now see your argument, I can also see the reasons by which I had been unable to comprehend your point. I had been assuming that FIRST robotics referred to the organization that brought the teams together, and as the Ideals of each team that participates. In all actuality, though, it only refers to the organization, and not technically to the team Ideals.

On my team, It was clearly the main purpose of the program to teach students about engineering, and being a productive person. We learned about CAD, machining, tools, electronics, programming, and too much more to list. While doing so, we also learned leadership, strategy, confidence, and how to communicate.

This was all taught to me by my team, and not FIRST. Without FIRST, I could not have had the experience that I did, but the teaching, and learning part were all done by the teams. Whether it was my own team in our work room, or another team on the playing field, FIRST had nothing to do with it. I just assumed because of how much I learned that It was taught to me by FIRST, and that by proxy, the FIRST experience was centered around learning. When really, that learning that I did wasn't required by FIRST.

This brings up a whole plethora of questions to be answered in my head... and I won't any further off topic in this thread, but may start another.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Sean, Cody, I am glad to see you two getting together on this.

I strongly agree with Sean's logic, and the points he makes in his posts on this subject, and I would like to add just a couple of additional comments.

I have always thought/said that FIRST is NOT about teaching/learning, but about inspiring. And whatever specific methods a team chooses to accomplish this goal are of secondary importance. That being said, I don't think there is any way a student OR mentor could participate on an FRC team and not learn a great deal. While not included in the stated goals/mission of FIRST, this is an extremely valuable side-effect of the program.

I also believe that the competitive aspect of FIRST - the opportunity to compete with your creation and win, and the desire to do so, is a huge part of what makes FIRST so special.

Besides what is printed in the rule book, there is very little in FIRST that is clearly black/white - right/wrong (and even much of the written word is often debatable) but I truly do believe that all of us mentors/teachers are involved in this endeavor for the right reasons, and as long as students are positively impacted then we are "doing good".

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

I went into the usfirst website and loaded the kickoff video. I have below the applicable portion.

Ok, the two bold parts are the parts I want to reference. The first part suggests that teams choose to not have mentors participate. To this, I'd like to meet the team that doesn't allow their mentors to participate. From my experience, it seems like the teams that can get a mentor choose to use them. They might not allow to participate in the way that you mean, but they make use of them in some way. The teams I've been on avoid having mentors work on the parts, heading the design, or out on the field. Does this mean they aren't participating? I don't think so. I avoid doing work for the students. I help them figure out dimensions, I open their mind to new ideas, I am a resource of information, I am there for motivation if they need some confidence, I am a mentor(as dictionary.com describes it). I am not drafting up the bot for them, I am not going out on the field, I am not designing the robot, I am not building a part, I
am not a student. But honestly, that whole debate doesn't bother me too much.

The second bold part is where your real question comes in.

In short: "How could the creators not know the point of their creation?"

I want to go with the definition of the word 'point', because that is probably where are confusion lies. According to dictionary.com, the word 'point' has 91 definitions. The definitions that are relevant are 23 through 25 which I've quoted below.

The creators would definitely know the point by definition 25, however that is not the definition that I was originally meaning. I am referring to definition 23. This leads to the question of what is "the important or essential thing" of FIRST. Winning is the most important thing in the competition for some, so that is the 'point' of FIRST for them. For others, the 'point' is inspiration. For me, the 'point' is learning. The whole 'point'(using definition 25) I am trying to make is that there is no singular 'point'(using definition 23) for something as big as FIRST.

This is the only case that I sincerely feel you are wrong. Anyone that suggests there is one-size-fits-all 'point' for FIRST, is wrong in my opinion. There are just too many people involved in the program for all of us to agree upon what is important.

I apologize for my harsh wording in my previous post(especially to Dean for the mistaken identity quote), I honestly am not accusing the creators of any ignorance. I feel that each of the creators are quite intelligent, I just think you need to realize that FIRST has numerous benefits outside of your original intention. It went from having a specific point to having numerous.

All I really ask is that you allow us to define the point ourselves rather then telling us what it is supposed to be.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

You get to do that with your team. A team is a separate entity from FIRST and is therefore entitled to it's own perspective. A team may choose to participate in other activities beyond FRC (VEX,BEST, Bot IQ, etc.) for a variety of benefits. Consequentially, a team may have a vision and mission that is somewhat different from any one of the individual competitions.

I cannot recall any example of FIRST telling the team what it is supposed to be, so why should we be telling FIRST what it is supposed to be. If learning is a part of your team mission or student coaches work for you, great. Teams can take a different look at the world than what is contained in FIRST's mission; it's allowed. Just don't assume that all of your reasons for participating should be pushed back to FIRST.

Stated differently...
FIRST != Team
Team != FIRST



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Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

According to usFIRST.org there are 1677 teams currently participating in FRC. That means that there are over 1677 different ways that a team can be run. That means that there are 1676 teams that don't have to be run in the same exact fashion as your team, and it's up to the individuals on those 1676 other teams to decide for themselves how their particular team will be run. Whether that be with student coaches or mentors in the pit, it is not our job as ta community as a whole to push our individual objectives and ideals upon our peers. Simply put, that is no way to foster the individualism, growth, and creativity that makes FRC so inspirational to alumni, those currently involved, and most importantly those who will join in the future.

As far as I'm concerned, wouldn't all of our time and energy be better spent worrying less about how other teams choose to run themselves, and more about how we can make our own teams better?

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Originally Posted by ICanCountTo19
Over the past couple years in a large number of Dean's speaches we have heard him adress teams who are student run, no adult mentors. He says they're missing the point.


Not one of these posts suggests removing adult mentors totally from the team. I'm sure that Dean was talking about the total team makeup and not this ascept of the team. Adult Mentors are needed to teach and direct the team. They should also train team leaders that can then use these skills to direct the drive team as student mentors.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Well, if one is unsure on how to run their own team, they would look to this thread for pro and con arguments. Obviously there is no one better solution than another, but learning the merits and flaws of both is important.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Above in my previous post I have a lengthy quote from kickoff that was given by Dave Lavery. This speech pretty well is FIRST telling us what the team is supposed to be. Now, the only question is Dave Lavery=FIRST. He is certainly a major spokesperson for FIRST.

Please read the thread in its entirety. We have already found that it was actually Dave Lavery who made this comment, not Dean. Also, the actual speech is quoted in a previous post I've made. Please read it before commenting on it.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Molten, what is FIRST's mission statement? Does it include a reference to mentors? Is not the mission statement to some extent a statement of FIRST's goals and methods?

FIRST's preferred method is to have mentors. They do not say what type of mentors, just that the program should have mentors. End of discussion, except that some teams don't read the mission statement and try to do the whole thing with one adult who pretty much is there so they can use their facility.

Anything beyond having mentor(s) that mentor (not shop-key-holders or accountants) is up to the team.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

So Mr. Lavery has pointed out that those teams that decide not to include Adult Mentors in the build process are missing the point. Never did he say that the teams that do not include mentors in build or do not have them on the field are not allowed to participate. A mentor is a great thing to have because they have already taken the tests of experience. And we all know that Mrs. Experience is a tough teacher because she gives the test first and the lesson last. So maybe a team is "missing" the point by competing a certain way, however since you are in FIRST your still coming out on top. By the way 1319 has a mentor coach, mainly because we strive to win. This is what the students want. Also winning will help when it comes to recruiting. When we won the Gailileo division in 2007 our enrollment jumped to over twice its size. Many of our now greatest students only joined because they wanted to be apart of a winning program. They are now interested in engineering fields and college in general. They were inspired and continued to be by our mentor lead team. To each his own I say that's why America is great.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

The 971 drive team chooses whoever they think is best suitable for the job, whether it be a student or an adult.

In 2004, 971 won SVR with an adult drive team coach.
This year, 2009, 971 won SVR (undefeated), Galileo, and Einstein with a student drive team coach.

I think it is unfair to say that an adult coach is inherently better than a student one. It all depends on an individual's actual abilities to be a coach.

Over domination
 

I am of two minds (which isn't that surprising) about the issue.

In one extreme you have students blindly following the orders of a mentor/teacher.

On the other extreme you have freshmen with no experience being thrust into a new and rapidly changing environment with no preparation.

I have seen some mentors dominate to the point of exclusion- their teams revolve around his word and his word is the team. I have also witnessed our team with very little prep go out and struggle to stay focused because the students weren't able to multi task well enough to keep the situational awareness at a high enough priority.

I feel, however, that you've encouraged the students to put their trust in the mentors through the entire year and that to disrupt it at a critical juncture would be counter productive. It is, however, the mentor's responsibility to realize their roll and not dominate the students' work.

As always these are my opinions and subject to change in light of actual specifics.

Re: Over domination
 

The only other thing I would like to add is that teams really shouldn't generalize and assume things about students or mentors being coaches. If you've seen an example of so-and-so, just remember that its one case of that situation in which a student or mentor falters or excels. I still think the best option is to have an old fashioned try out for both the coach and drivers.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

OK, jumping back into the fray here, albeit some of the discussion may have become OBE (and as a side note, I will note how refreshing and mind-cleansing taking a break from the forums and all things robotics for two weeks can be). Cody, setting aside any value judgements on just exactly how bullheaded I may or may not be (and trust me, you have absolutely no idea...) I would ask that you go back and read my post again. I made one correction and a request. So as not to unfairly put words or blame into Dean's mouth, I corrected the earlier statement regarding the source of the quote (and I note that the statement was made by Michael Schreiber, not Jason as you indicated). I then requested that Jason thoroughly research his interpretation of my quote, so that he might understand exactly what I said and our discussion could progress from there. My statements during the kick-off presentations had to do with the specific issue of teams that choose to participate in FRC without the incorporation of adult mentors on their teams. I stand by those statements, I agree with them, and I believe that they fully support the vision and focus of FIRST. If we were going to discuss those issues, then I wanted to be sure we were starting from the same context.

The need for that is made obvious by the remainder of your post. I was referencing the role of the adult mentors on a team. Your post argues for the role of an adult coach on a team. While one person may fulfill both roles, they are not the same thing. Whether or not a team utilizes an adult or a student as a coach during the game is, to me, a minor issue. The rules issued by FIRST clearly permit the team to make their own choice in this regard. So I don't see it as even worth debating. The utilization of an adult mentor on the team, on the other hand, is one of the fundamental tenets of FIRST. If a team chooses to do without adult mentorship of the team, then I believe they are choosing to miss out on one of the truly significant benefits of FIRST, and the principal reason to participate in this program versus almost any of the many other robotics competition programs out there.

To put it simply: An adult coach impacts a team for two minutes. An adult mentor impacts a team for a lifetime.

-dave




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Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Since the rules as they exist allow for whatever a team would prefer to do, and since no two teams have the same situation (experience, facilities, etc) and since teams oscillate (members & mentors move, graduate, retire) from year to year, why try to apply a one size fits all solution to a situation that is ripe with diversity. Each team has the ability to formulate their drive team (or any other group or sub group) any way that works best for them.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

Our team wants members of the team (not adults) to participate in the drive team. I do not know why, but I am going to guess that the mentors of our want the students to be involved with what they create. Yea, the mentors give pointers as to the pros and cons of each match, but they want the student coach to be aware of the problems that could have fixed. I am guessing that our team coach wants our student drive team coach to be able to make good decisions, and execute them well with the help of the driver and operator.

Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

I think this paragraph highlights the disconnect in our viewpoints. As indicated (several times now), my kickoff presentation comments have centered on those teams that knowingly and intentionally eschew the meaningful participation of adult mentors on the team. Your post indicates that you do not believe such teams exist. I am certain beyond a reasonable doubt that they do.

My belief is based on information gathered from multiple data sets, including:
- review of the accumulated feedback provided to FIRST during the summer team forums (or whatever they are being called now) and similar sessions;
- review of 350-450 team-written self descriptions submitted each year as part of the NASA grant application process, in which teams describe their organization and mentoring structure;
- direct discussions with many teams over the years at the in-season and off-season competitions (current count is somewhere around 60 attended);
- review of the data gathered by the Brandeis University Study, and similar efforts, which examined the productivity, structure and throughput of FRC teams and their effectiveness at fulfilling the FIRST vision;
- and even the many, many posts that have accumulated here on CD from the many self-proclaimed "students only, they do everything, there are no adults involved" teams that decry contributions by any adults at all.

Based on the information gathered from these and other sources, many members of the senior ranks of FIRST have become concerned about the dilution of both the real and perceived role of mentors in the FIRST program. Teams that participate without meaningful adult mentoring exemplify the extreme case, and they exist as a large enough component of the total community to be considered representative of a real issue. The organization is focusing some real attention on how these divergent implementations affect the mission of FIRST.

If you truly believe that such teams do not actually exist, then please please provide me with some solid, concrete data to support that contention. Because if that is correct, then by extension we are wasting our time trying to address the issue of such teams and how they fit (or not) within FIRST. If that is indeed the case, then I think we will gladly welcome being corrected as we have many other things that we could be doing.

-dave


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Re: FAHA: Adult Coach on Drive Team
 

But that's not true. There are really 2 situations from here: teams that practice for events and teams that do not. As I was on a team that swore by practice, I can only relate to that situation.

I am not literally talking about how, during practice, you spend more time with a drive coach. There are skills that you learn out on the field that are extraordinarily useful, and some of them can't be gotten any other way out of this organization. The most prominant is definately communication-in 2 minutes, you have to convey a lot of information between the coach and drive team. As a driver, you generally have about 5 seconds before whatever you were going to tell your coach no longer matters. You also have to be able to answer questions nearly instantly, and with a definate answer, not something that could be open to interpretation (no maybes, no probablys, and definately no "I think"s!)

While teams that do not practice will have a lessened effect, there will likely still be some of the lasting lessons learned, just through the course of matches.

Please realize that it should be up to the teams to choose what is best, and not up to FIRST.