TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Hi, for all of you that haven't read the thread in the Rumor Mill section, I am beginning construction of TRA (The Red Alliance) this week. The 40 some-odd responses in the thread have spawned some interesting ideas for the use of the site. I am still planning on using a "Facebook of FIRST" base to allow teams to create profiles for their robots as a scouting tool for others. My question to the FIRST community is, what else would you like to see on TRA? Please select all that apply. I am starting now and aim to have at least the robot profiles ready for team input by the beginning of the 2010 season. Please vote and comments are always welcome. Good luck to all and looking forward to the 2010 season!

Edit: A minor clarification to the poll options: Technical documentation would be game manuals for sure and possible docs that teams wish to share as well
Non-Technical would be anything published by FIRST or teams relating to team spirit, community service, team management etc.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

If you plan to do a picture archive, I really suggest putting a lot of careful thought into the layout of everything.
As well as how you intend for people to find the pictures their looking for.
Just having people tag images, could make things complicated for a person looking for a single specific image and is also kinda messy.
So I have a few suggestions...
Have specific areas on the upload page for people to tag different things.
For instance... If its a picture of the game field during a competition, and you have some robots that are the main focus of the picture. Have a specific box for the uploader to enter the team # of those robots in. But for any robots that may be in the background of the picture, have another box for those to be tagged as well. That ways, when someone does a search for a teams robot, they don't get a bunch of pictures where you can barely see the robot in the background.

Also, have some check boxes for the uploader to select depending on things like what the picture is of, and whats going on in it.
For example... A person is uploading pictures of their team in the stands at competition. The picture has no robots in it, but it does have several team members cheering.
So the person would not select the robot check box, but would click on the competition, and team picture check boxes.
Then when a person is searching for something all they have to do is select where and what the picture was taken of, and enter the proper team number and BAM! You have a lot less unwanted pictures in your search results.

I hope all of that was understandable, I was coming up with ideas while typing :D
Feel free to PM me if you need anymore clarification on this.
Can't wait to check out the new site!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I like the ideas Teamcap posted, but want to add my own.
I think that teams should also be able to post ahead of time, from a list of options, exactly what competitions they are going to attend and have it posted on their profile.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

a digg style system to promote stories on cd, first forums, nasa forums, team web sites, autodesk tutorials or whatever....being able to sort through most of the information is quite a chore and I end up missing important things from time to time....

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I'm especially in promotion for "robot facebook". TBA's robot pictures never do our bot any justice.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

This kind of stomps on FIRSTWiki's turf a little... but I'm excited nonetheless.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

FIRSTWiki is often forgotten about it, and while its easy to update, you have to create it from scratch(ish). Alot of team pages are poorly kept on FIRSTWiki, and like all wiki sites, I can't trust it 100%.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I'm all for FIRSTWiki It's a good resource, I try to keep my teams page updated as much as I can. The robot facebook is more of a scouting resource, at least the way I see it.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I guess I'm only using my team as a reference. I went on it recently, and before I attempted to update it, it was prolly about two years behind. Some sections were updated, but others were horribly outdated.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

This is gonna be so awesome!!! :)

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I suck at photoshop... who wants to make graphics for me?

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I assume this will be like facebook/wiki in which individuals update their own pages? I think the biggest problem you (along with FIRSTWiki and the photos on TBA), is the lack of teams that submit information. I'm not sure having an easy to use, nifty looking layout will be enough to get enough teams to input thier pictures and robot info to make it worthwhile. What are you planning to do to solve this problem of a low number of teams that submit pictures/info?

Not saying this is a bad idea, just offering suggestions to make it the best that it can be.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Suggestion!
I agree that this would be a pretty big problem.
To solve it, you need to convince people that updating their info, is worth it.
How do you do that, you ask?
Well start by contacting some big name teams, and convincing them to post info.
If you got teams like 67, 217, 111, 1114, 233, 190, 148, etc..
to have their information on your site, then many other teams will follow suit.

Also, if you contact people in charge of regionals/kick offs, and have them do things like, talk about about your site at kick off,
and send an email about it to all the teams competing at their regional.
Then im sure you would have plenty of teams on your site by the end of build season.
Again this is just an idea :)
My $0.02
Hope it helps.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I agree 100%, if I could get the site on the kickoff webcast that would be epic :).

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

But look at Dean and his FIRST alumni base, its working out, but not quite as hot as he was hoping.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Well right... But this is Dean we're talking about...
He founded FIRST, so naturally if he asks everyone to do something over the telecast, then of course almost everyone is going to do it.

So... Maybe we should have Dean talk about your website during kick off! :D

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I think that promotion on CD will get a lot of teams involved. If this is done well before Kickoff, I'll see to it that all of the teams I know start using it. Eventually there will be a tipping point where it will become a serious disadvantage if you don't.

One thing this site should do is have very specific sections and details. If it's too open like FIRSTWiki people won't know what to do.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I know! Wouldn't that be awesome? Assuming its ready then does anyone know who I would contact?

The best bet for getting the site to really take off is to combine all our methods, tell fellow teams, get big names (well numbers) involved and broadcast it on the webcast. I'm pretty much done with a simple demo profile page that I wrote in pure HTML on my teams robot from last year (No PHP yet) I'm having a little technical difficulties with my host but when its all sorted out I'll upload it, post a link, and you guys can give feedback so I can make layout and design changes before I start writing the code. Stay tuned and thank you for your continued support and enthusiasm!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I know that when a new thing gets announced, teams get excited and they start suggesting ideas that would benefit their team, or the process as a whole, and people sometimes tend to forget things that other programs might need.

I know that week 3, I can go to TBA, and scout my heart out and get a good feel for how our matches are going to run. I generally know what each robot looks like and how to defend who, but I think that FTC and FLL are LARGELY neglected in this area.

I agree that that a facebook style page or a page with pictures (???) would be alright, but considering that the FTC and FLL programs don't even have one central place they can all go for match turnouts, videos, etc. I think we're putting the two other programs on a back burner...ALL the way on the back burner.

And it's not to say that record of winners is not available. The TBA website has a record of winners, as well as the FIRST website. And as for documentation, Chief Delphi itself has A LOT of documentation and WPI and Simbotics also have a lot of information.

So while whatever we do with TRA might seem cool and fun, I think that the TRA should go towards promoting FTC & FLL and just maybe make things a little bit easier for them as well.

EDIT: And for promoting your website, I think it'd be better if you create it first. :D. If the website is as rock solid and fun as you plan it to be, then it will get recognition on its own.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I agree, that's why I made that an option. I just tried to supply as many different options to see what subjects people felt they needed another place to find information on. I won't necessarily create an area solely for awards, but rather work them into team/robot pages for example. And once the initial site is done I'm hoping to spend part of my senior year creating mini sites for the other divisions before handing it off to someone else when I graduate.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Information for such a large number of teams/robots is near impossible to collect and organize. if you have an idea of which select teams to have databased feel free to post it up.

I do not believe the interest level for something like FLL or even most FTC tournaments is that high. The only legitimate type of scouting resource I could see coming online/worth the trouble for would be for teams attending the World Championships. And even that, who would record all the data from their match history?

FLL- pages about this would be, IMHO, useless.
FTC- pages regarding matches of teams attending the World Championships would be the only partially useful thing.

In all honesty, the only section that seems useful because its unavailable at the moment would be a photo archive with unlimited space and easy to upload. Very much like photobucket, an album for each team. Then again, I'm sure The Blue Alliance could do this upon request. It would need to be screened very quickly (unlike CD media) for only TECHNICAL photos. No silly little facebook type pictures. Or just search for tags of a specific team on here....

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I don't exactly see your basis for saying that teams won't use them...

If this resource is available and teams are told that they are available, then why wouldn't a team want to use them? Currently there is nothing like this for the FLL/FTC program, so you can't exactly say that there is an example where something like this has failed for this program.

In my opinion, I think that if this resource is available to a team, then I see no reason why teams wouldn't use it. The Blue Alliance is more than just match scheduling, but instead it keeps up FRC information, program updates, kick-off agenda, etc.

For now, I know of no central FLL websites, and There are a bunch of FTC websites that one has to check in order to get updated information.

And gathering information for the vast amount of teams won't be EASY. Of course it'll be a challenge, but it's one that, sooner or later, needs to be met.

And as far as the photo idea is concerned, teams BARELY update their websites...and now you're asking them to update a photo page for their robot? It's not to say that all teams don't update their website, but there are a great number of teams that don't update their website.

And it won't mater if teams like 67, 111, 11, 1114, 217 and the other known teams post pictures...their pictures are already available on their own websites, and if we expect people follow what these "known" teams do, then the other teams would have updated websites as well.

I think that this is a gamble worth taking. Carpenma, if your website is indeed good, you'll find that FIRST will promote it on its own, and all of a sudden, you'll have thousands of FLL and FTC teams coming to your website to see what the new, helpful tool is, not to mention that these programs are growing at a great rate and if your website is truly good, then they'll turn to your website for help and guidance.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I hate to be making 75% of the posts in this thread but...
Precisely, if nobody collected it because they all thought it was too hard than no one would have it. However, this information is not going to be collected solely by myself. I hope to, at some point, have teams update their own info and even, if necessary, have one or two teams volunteer at each event to load info on who won different awards if the information is not readily available.

There are definitely going to be some spots that may cause some trouble, teams lack of motivation to update pages and add photos and the like.

And by no means do I expect this site to be perfect by the time I graduate, as mason (Robstangs548) put it, I have to leave something for future generations of FIRST members. So what doesn't get done by me (hopefully) will be done by my successor.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

To be fair, most team sites are not made with a server-side CMS that can be edited from any webpage, and often only a few people on the team have FTP access or the time to make the site. Entering in data is a lot easier than that.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

When I made this comment, I wasn't solely referring to the Photo Archive.
I was also talking about "FIRSTBook" (facebook for FIRST teams).

I also agree with Chris.
On most teams, there are few people that have access to the teams website.
I know, I have no access to my own teams website...
If I did, it might be updated on a regular basis.
But I don't. So, it would be much easier for me to update a team page that I can quickly log on and update with a few quick clicks.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

A TBA style site for FTC would be much appreciated. This year was a bad example because the entire community was split in half and many tournaments were decided by who got lucky in their bluetooth connections. If you want a good example of the way the FTC community works, look at the vexforum Quad Quandary archives. There was interest, and as better websites for FTC are created (sorry, chief delphi is awesome, but it's not an FTC site) the community will return. There is no central website for FTC anymore, and if you want to provide a valuable service to thousands of people and hundreds, if not thousands, of teams while instantly catapulting your website into the pantheon of great FIRST websites, in my humble opinion, this is the way to go.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Please please PLEASE let me design you a website that's as sleek and useable as the TBA site?

PM me - I won't have free time until mid-August, but I think we can get something that's both useable, intuitive, and well-designed ready before the 2010 build season.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

If you are referring to FLL teams then consider that a significant number of FLL teams have connections or are assisted by FRC teams (warning: don't actually know this for a fact, basing my comment of how things worked in our area). But if that is the fact then what if the teams who have connections to the local FLL teams simply collect the information from those teams. That way each team collects the data for maybe a handful of teams, and if enough teams do that then you've got a lot of FLL teams accounted for. As long as enough teams are interested collecting the data might not be so bad (though organizing the data would probably still be a pain). Just an idea...

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

My point is still that a match database for FLL teams is a little useless because FLL requires no scouting in competition. I just don't see the benefits of an FLL database of all teams. Somebody just explain it to me.


And yes, please do let Sarah design your website, her work is awesome.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I see...but even without a need for scouting an FLL database might be worthwhile. The simple idea of having records of FLL matches might be useful. That's one of TBA's uses, isn't it?

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

There's a lot of FLL teams, and not a lot of following teams and robots year after year. I mean, the numbers change every year as do a lot of team names, so it's pretty difficult to get teams logged based on that... I just wouldn't even touch FLL.

FTC there's a significant need for a database. Or any match filming. Or any webcasting. If you want a lower level competition to analyze, do FTC.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Not just FLL mate, FTC also.

But I mean...we have one for FRC, and it's the hottest thing out there. If you imagine one place where FTC and FLL teams can go for match results, video, pictures, support documents, then why in the world is it useless?

I see thousands of teams who potentially have a website now to go to for all of their support, for all of their media. I think FRC has been squeezed to its full potential. A media website such as TBA is amazing and all of the video is right there for us, but for FTC, I generally spend hours on youtube trying to hunt down videos and seeing all that I can.

And the expansion for FLL growth is amazing. There is NOTHING out there like this for FLL and FTC, so simply saying that this website will fail because it bases itself off FLL and FTC is a fallacy because there's nothing to base the conjecture on.

I know that people are saying that one day FTC and FLL will have their own central sites, but I mean...one day we're going to have to START those websites. If we keep looking for places to put our FRC pictures and what not...then I mean, we keep on delaying what the community really NEEDS.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Is there any reason that a FTC database would be fundamentally harder to put together than a FRC database? Apologies I don't know a whole lot about FTC.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

There's no reason a single database wouldn't work for any robotics program where the team number is persistent from year to year. If you created a permanent ID number for FLL teams (separate from their changing FIRST ID numbers), you could create a single resource that would include FRC, FTC, VRC, FLL, and (presumably) BEST, Botball, NURC, college VRC, or ???.

The database design is a cinch. If you need some help, PM or email me.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Ok, due to some disputes between me, my domain name provider and my hosting company I do not have theredalliance.net pointing to the correct place yet. However, you can view anything that I have done so far at this address: http://174.120.41.59/~carpenma/. Right now there is merely a page there to prevent the page not found error from appearing. I will upload the dummy profile page later today. Please feel free to provide feedback on what you do and don't like in this thread so that can be considered before the final design is created.

NOTE: Due to my lack of image editing skills the backgrounds and other graphics on the dummy page will be incredibly basic or non-existent.

Thank you and stay tuned!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I think there would be some interest in a FLL database (see this thread on the FLL forums http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=10572). However, getting scores may be very hard or impossible. http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=10761 http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=10695

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

my other is a video archive for FTC, FLL, Jr.FLL that teams can submit videos into

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Ok, I have changed the index page located at the temporary address of The Red Alliance. The page includes a link to a test profile page. Please check out the page and leave feedback about what you like and don't like either in this thread or in an email to me (carpenma@wowway.com or the link on the page).

I am planning on waiting for feedback to accumulate for a few days. During that time I am going to work on setting up the necessary databases etc needed to run the site. Thanks and enjoy!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Sweet, I think TRA should be more history and functionality about robots for that year. Well, more functionality than anything else. Like our pit scouting forms. A past years section might be helpful for design ideas. Also, for the blank area, a video coud be provided to help show what that team's bot can do.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Good start. I'd suggest making sure all of the fields are customizable, but with good defaults (stuff like "ball throughput" is information some teams would like to stress more than others).

Underneath should be a narrative or something about the build process, what decisions were made making the robot, how it performed in scrimmages and regionals, etc.

I think the awards for the team should be for only the year of the robot you are viewing.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I just clicked post so I don't know what was posted before me;

- Videos; that actually concentrate on the robot, not the whole field
- Commentary; that really matters, I don't want to here that the plastic field simulates the moon gravity for the limit as it approaches infinity.
- Robot Facebook; like that.
- A free (as in freedom and beer, thank you Richard) code repository; to help people learn and to keep the game interesting.
- A full rule book; Searchable, with updates from the Q&A forums, and explainations from the rule hammering out treads here on CD. That would make it viable right there.
- Lecture videos; This is C++/A drill/Java/solder, now we will start learning.

I really can't think of anything else.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

A facebook style of page like the example posted is rather helpful but if updated by the team itself or by the webadmin things could get dicey if something was said about someone elses robot

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Matt,

Just looked at the TRA site and so far, it looks good. Some changes:

1.Try changing the font, maybe something different.

2.In your spot that says "what should go here" what about previous robot pictures or close ups of parts. kind of a spot for teams to put up some of their photos.

3. In the awards section, see about changing fonts, sizes, and bold face.

4. I know that you said that you are not a graphics guy, but see if you can find a different logo for the awards and medals. Along the same lines, see about creating a logo for The Red Alliance and having along the top of the page much like TBA.

5. Try a different background instead of white. I know I am comparing with TBA, but something different. White seems unfinished and unprofessional(no offense:o ).

6. And think about defining the different sections on the page into different styled tables, so it seems separate from the others.

Like I said before, it looks good and good luck as you continue on with the project. :]

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Please don't take this the wrong way. I greatly value the input of all who take the time to look at the page and write their opinions. But...

In response to 1,3,4 and 5:

This is nothing but a demonstration for the sole purpose of getting input on layouts. I tried to advertise as much as possible the fact that the fonts, lack of backgrounds and graphics made in paint are merely to show that those items will eventually exist. I have every intention of making the changes you mentioned when the design is more final. ;)

2 and 6:

Thank you for your input :)

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

None taken. Those are some of the things that I view as I work on a bunch of power point work.

And I have worked with people outside of FIRST and they don't care at all how things look and I feel like killing them for it. :cool:
Can't wait for the final!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Is this going to use an existing CMS, or based on your own custom coding?

Small suggestion (when the design is more final, of course): Have the robot images as thumbnails, then use Shadowbox or Lightbox to expand them when clicked.

I love the idea!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

It's going to be custom coded. That's why I'm leaving so much time to get it going. Lightbox definitely sounds like a good idea! Thanks for the interest!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

If you need any help, don't hesitate to contact me! I'm not a master by any stretch of the imagination, but I can contribute some pieces of code, and possibly a few minor graphics. :)

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I offered to do the design work - but I'd love some coding help so I dont' have to do it all!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Will TRA be implemented into TBA in anyway? Will they be clashing or cooperative?

If both sites came together "TheFIRSTalliance" and you seperated both sites as one being a FIRST-Facebook for teams where you can see their past, present, and future, contact info, pictures, videos, team uploaded content and documents....while have the other be the more Competition side of FIRST, where you can get the stats, regional wins/loses and most of what TBA is right now.

Like, take the homepage for TBA, and you can hit the red light for REDalliance, which is for teams to be teams, or the BLUEalliance where teams can get facts and stats.

And while the FIRSTwiki is a good idea, there is something to be said for a complete home-grown website for FIRSTers.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Wikis only have so much appeal to them, despite how powerful they can be. I like Tetraman's idea to have TBA and TRA cooperate with each other. One side is for the facts and stats, the other would be the "playful" side, where team spirit can be displayed by the teams.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Ya, I haven't talked very much with the owners/operators of TBA but I could see a domain such as thepurplealliance.net being a single page portal to the two sites.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I'd at least give them a hello. They could pass on some ideas of their own.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Looking forward to this!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Just wanted to let you all know I haven't forgotten about you! After a lot of going back and forth with domain registrars and hosting companies I finally got everything straightened out. You no long have to go to the address of a particular server to see the contents of The Red Alliance. thredalliance.net is the official address again. I'm going to start assembling the site very soon and hopefully a beta is not too far off! Stay tuned!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

My suggestion: change "Drop or Shoot" to "Manipulator", and use icons for Arm, Drop, Shoot, etc.
Try to make it more generic, so that the code doesn't have to be completely rewritten each year

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Maybe have a contact email or phone number for the team, and have the awards break down by year, then event, instead of year, then a list of everything. (I think its hard to read, maybe skipping lines would work too and be easier)

2009

-Kettering District
--District Semifinalist
--Driving Tomorrow's Technology

-Detroit District
--District Semifinalist
--Driving Tomorrow's Technology

etc...

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Hello all,

Time for another update. Props to Jay for coming up with a pretty awesome template for the site. Far better than anything I could have ever come up with. The template can be seen in image form here. Give feedback!

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

i would love to see a website, where (i know this sounds really odd) robotics is not the main topic of discussion. the social side of FIRST needs some recognition!

(and yes i know chief delphi has off-topic threads, but i just want to see something different)

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Hmm, you raise a valid point. Are you talking like for individual members or for teams? I suppose once the structure for the robot pages has been constructed it won't be very difficult to port it to individuals.

Anyone have an opinion on this idea?

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

I still have FIRSTBlogs.org until December or so, and I was in talks with carpenma about some kind of relation to TRA or something. I've currently got Wordpress Multi-User and Buddypress installed.

Re: TRA - No Longer Just A Rumor
 

Hey guys and gals, things are moving along here. Just wanted to make a quick post to ask you all to please vote for FIRST in the Google 10^100 project. The link to the category related to FIRST can be found here. If you would like to browse your other options you can go here to see all the finalists. Be quick though, voting ends October 8th!