Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

I like the majority of your ideas - except #3.

We ALWAYS give our trophies to our major sponsor - the one that gives us space for our build, design, field, and kicks in a pretty penny to boot. They have the trophies in their community outreach cases, right in the main isle when you walk in.

Keep the second trophies!

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

I would personally like to see a patch instead of a pin.
This could be a really nice patch with the current game logo and lots of color and could be very visually appealing.

This would be accompanied by a inverted arch patch that would be unique for each regional and for CMP... So you could wear the patch, and below it you could show the regional(s) you attended...

This would be great for a blanket or a jacket... and for putting in a scrap book.

There is another reason to switch away from the bronze medallions.
That would be trying to make FIRST more green...the amount of energy in creating and shipping those medals is pretty large so along with money savings we could also save some energy and become that much greener.

In the annual report, it is stated that FIRST awards 50,000 medals a year.
At $5 each in cost that would be $250,000. That is the minimum cost to run an entire regional.....

sorry about the image examples... just things I could find on the web.
although the dog inverted arches might be appropriate...lol

thanks

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

For those that aren't subscribed to the feed, Bill Miller updated the blog today with a bit more detail about the idea.

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

There are two real questions here:

1. Should there be a token of recognition for participation in FRC?

and

2. If the answer to #1 is "yes," what form should that recognition take?

Some of the arguments here have been financial, so I thought some facts might help to inform this discussion. The current medals are 2.75" with a custom ribbon. A few minutes spent on Google show that you can buy large lots of medals of this size in gold, silver, or bronze for less than $2 each.

Pricing the pins is a little harder, because they come in lots of different sizes and quality, but if FIRST is trying to save money, let's just assume a mid-range price of $.75 per pin. You can substitute whatever value you like, but high-end enameled pins are about $1.75 and cheaper "soft enamel" pins can be 50 cents or so.

According to the FIRST annual report, they handed out 50,000 FRC medallions last year, for an acquisition cost of $100,000. With our 75 cent price, pins would be $37,500, for an acquisition savings of $62,500.

Also according to FIRST's annual report, they brought in $14.4 million in program registration fees. Their total income was nearly $30 million. FIRST's cash, cash equivalents, and other assets increased by nearly $5 million last year. I cannot imagine that saving $60k on individual recognition to the students in the program is the best possible place to save money.

EDITED: I just found out that I pretty much recapitulated a post from Billfred from a few days ago. Oops.

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

Hey, I hear paper is cheaper than metal these days!
w0000 for participation certificates in the upcoming years! :rolleyes:
And btw, I am being semi-sarcastic if you haven't picked up on that - I have no knowledge of downgrading the awards to anything other than the pins currently being discussed, but that is how I see it. A downgrade.

But you know that getting a paper certificate is a possible direction this could be headed in given the slow move over the past couple years to implement "cost savings" into the program & more-so into the awards segment of the overall organization.

I'm probably not going to be popular because of this post with some people, & that's just fine with me.
I just needed to give my true response to the situation at hand. :cool:

Stop the downgrading!

$0.02

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

As I transfer over from the 'student side' of FIRST to the 'mentor side', it makes me sad to think that medals might go- I feel badly that my future students won't have that big, shiny, tangible thing that they can show off to their school, their friends, and their teachers, that lets them know that no matter what happened to their team this year, what they did with the FIRST program was important.

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

But isn't the entire point that they should already feel that way?

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

It's still nice to have a tangible, symbolic representation of such feelings that you can easily show to people and yourself when need be.

Now I want both. ._.

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

I whole heartedly agree with the last line of this post. I mean a medal or a pin or a shirt even is just material proof of the accompishments made in FIRST during that season. I can say that I don't even really know where my 2009 FIM District Chairman's Award medal is. But I'm still looking back on the season and smiling at all the fun I've had and can't wait till school starts to get the season underway.

However on the oppostite argument of this. Teams still pay for all of the EXACT same costs so not getting the same things as previous seasons and paying the same amout is rather dishearting I mean do peices of coloured metal cost that much? I mean it's just a medal or rather metal but there are those who need encouragement to continue in FIRST even if their team didn't do as good as anticipated.

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

Just a note. While you guys personally might not need these medals to have an impacted season, what about the people who do want them? What do you propose for teams like Trobotics, where receiving the "participation medal" is a big deal? That's the main question I ask of the Pin Camp. :D

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

Nothing says that you can't a) do the same thing with pins or b) make your own participation awards (medals, trophies, etc).

And you can even just do a certificate emphasizing the student's role on the team. I know one year, 330 gave out a "Most Buttons Collected" award. It went to...

...a younger sibling of some of the team members who didn't have anything to do other than collect buttons. (Note: just one of several that year)

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

If people care that much about shiney hunks of metal I hear punched sheet metal works just as well. :p

But really, what Eric said sums it up. Since pins would cost less I'd be all for it.

Wouldn't you rather have saved a very low budget team just enough money because of those pins so they can enter another year as an FRC team, rather than complain about losing participation medals that the team who couldn't participate didn't even have a chance to earn? (If this is incoherent babble, I apologize, its 2am and I've been teaching FLL camps all week).

As a last post, I'm all for the pins because they would cost less to make, eventhough I still stand behind the opinion that material possessions shouldn't be needed to remind someone of a special time in their lives.

P.S- We gave out our box of participation medals at the finale of our FLL camp this week. The top 3 teams of kids got those medals. When we asked the kids on the other 7 teams(ages 11 and under) what they felt about not "winning", ALL of them (yes its not a hyperbole) said that they had a lot of fun and wanted to come back to FLL again. Did they care about not getting those medals? NO. Not significantly enough for them not to have a good time and learn.

..Last post since I don't see an end in the topic.

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

Wearing participation medals presented lots of opportunities for PR and for portraying a unified effort. For the teams who chose to keep them in a box, in storage, and who didn't mine the potential, that was a decision or oversight made. For the teams that appreciated the purpose of the medals and chose to wear them, display them, and give them as gifts to their supporters - they were mining and exploring the purpose of the participation medals in the FRC program wisely and in good faith.

An opportunity has presented itself to present opinions regarding personal preferences towards receiving and wearing a medal or a pin. Whether we have valued and appreciated the medals or not in the past, it doesn't mean we have to show disrespect towards their intent when discussing them.

Thanks for stating your opinion so well, Libby.

Jane

Edit: It might also be worthwhile to think about the business or businesses that made the medals and ribbons for FRC available and the time crunches/deadlines they faced regarding supply and demand as well as as their costs and the impact this decision will have on them as supporters of the FIRST program.

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

Billfred and I have both looked into comparative costs, and it's less than $2 per student. The "saving money" argument isn't compelling.

Re: From Bill's Blog: Merits of replacing bronze participation medals
 

Jane brings up an excellent point. (Bolded for your convenience). Some teams appreciate the intent and proudly display their participation medals. Some teams choose not to use them. That's totally their choice, and there's no 'right' or 'wrong' with it. It's just the team's decision.

Now here's a giant WHAT IF:
(please note: I am not a business major, I'm studying engineering- I do not know what it would cost FIRST to do this, I have not studied the circumstances nearly enough, but it's just an idea, please take it in the spirit it's meant.)

WHAT IF: FIRST gave each team the option, as they were doing their event registration in TIMS, to choose what they wanted. They could then pick their choice (medal or pin) up at their first regional/district event. The team could internally take their vote: OK, kids, which one do you think is cooler? Which one would you value more highly? If the team chooses to display their efforts with a medal, then that's the option they click in TIMS. If they think the medals are bulky and they'd rather have a smaller item, then they click 'pin'. The choice is marked in FIRST's system, and it's sent to their regional.

Yes, FIRST is still ordering medals, but at least they're not ordering so many extras that go to waste. From the looks of the way it's played out on ChiefDelphi and Bill's Blog, FIRST would order roughly half of what they used to (cutting costs for medals in -you guessed it- roughly half!).

EDIT: GaryVoshol corrected me, my math is just plain wrong when you add in fixed production costs.

I volunteered at FIRSTPlace as a summer camp counselor for the past 4 years, and every year there were boxes and boxes of participation medals (silver & gold medals, too) left over, presumably by teams that didn't pick them up. Give the teams a choice, and you've eliminated the over-ordering problem.

Again- I have never seen FIRST's budget beyond the Annual Report that goes out, I have not studied exact costs, but that's my idea for making everyone happy. There are probably a few flaws with it, but like I said- I'm not an expert. I'm just thinking out loud (er...online?).