Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

The issue I see with this way of thinking is that, believe it or not, most FIRST teams are fairly inexperianced. And if they cannot figure it out then the documentation needs to be revised so that the average user can use the product effectively.

As a manufacturing engineer, I could write a procedure that was technically correct, yet no one on the production line could follow it because they did not understand the terminology or concepts presented.

By leaving out those who are the most inexperianced, you effectively removed their chances to better understand the technology they are using and put them at a further disadvantage as well as remove any chance FIRST has to reach out and help them by changing the terminology to something they understand.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

The teams that really needed the help did not have the resources to do an adequate beta test. They instead got instruction from the beta teams before they even had their control system, continuing until ship day and beyond. What's better: trial and error and maybe not working, or working with someone who knows what they're doing to show you what needs to be done?

The teams that had (have) the best chance of success at the game are also the ones that had (have) the best chance of success in beta testing. If you don't like that, then find software mentors for those teams.

I doubt that that's a good solution. They have to 1) build a robot (or otherwise obtain one), 2) test the system (learning the languages from scratch, possibly), 3) find a suitable practice area, 4) test. On their students' (workers') time. And ensure reporting. Oh, and there's a decent chance that you might wind up with experts doing the testing, which will not help a rookie team, as the expert might not understand that these guys have no clue what they're doing. See your own comment about writing a procedure.

Sure, you could do it, but you kind of need to have an FRC team involved somewhere.

If most FRC teams are "inexperienced", then the ones that do have experience need to reach out to the ones that don't have the experience.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

Sure...but the problem with this method(having only very technically capable teams test equipment) is that what you gain in specificity, you lose in sensitivity. For example, take the extreme sensitivity of the 2009
DS to static discharge. There are very simple procedures that can be taken to work around this(i.e.the grounding modification), but it's a bug that did not show up, in a manner that anyone paid attention to, until systems were in use by thousands of teams.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

It also requires a CAN module for the cRIO.

I did email FIRST and ask about the possibility of doing a more open beta for the software. They said assuming there are enough qualified teams, they planned on the number of beta teams being larger then last year. I hope that other people with constructive feedback will take the time to email FIRST.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

I emailed before the summer started if the possibility of summer testing was something they could try out and then once school starts try to get any new hardware out to teams so they have at least a couple weeks to fool around with new/improved items...I unfortunately didn't get a response. :(

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

That "advantage" was not limited to the Beta Test teams.

It sounds like you're forgetting the fact that the control system was available early for any team willing to pay for its shipment. It was shipped early to every recipient of a NASA grant, at no cost to the team, which ought to have included a fair number of rookies.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

No, I'm acutely aware of that fact ... but:

Last year my team was new to FIRST (although I've had many years experiance as a mentor), but we were not considered a 'rookie' team because we had 5 members from a previous team.

We did get our control system early, but because we were new, we did not have a robot, and only a limited number of motors to test things with. We were not eligible for the NASA grant because we were not a rookie, hadn't had the grant the year before (we're new ;) ), and weren't going to a NASA regional.

While we put on our webpage, in the FIRST database, and elsewhere that we wwere looking for help we did not recieve any assistance from outside teams, even though we asked.

Now, I'm not complaining, because we have an excellent group of kids and a skilled set of our own mentors, so we faired well at our 1 competiton. My issues is for teams similar to mine but without mentors, teams that might only have a math or English teacher running the program.They are the ones that need the help the most, and usually end up with a box on wheels, because they didn't understand the needs of a program like FIRST.

But I digress...

My original post stands: IMHO the beta testers gain an advantage because of familiarity with the new systems (whether they use that advantage or not ... it's still there).

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

I think that's ok. They will. There is nothing wrong with building a box on wheels, esp. a robust one that can be a welcome addition to an alliance because of other strengths, including attitude.

FRC isn't going to back away from the acronym it has created, inspiring young people and whole communities by partnering with engineers and other professional mentors. With initiatives such as this one, it becomes very evident, very fast, that the experience and educational background of the mentors on a team is valuable and applicable and an absolute plus. There's nothing wrong with that. Teams who are weak in technical mentors for whatever reason, or who are overwhelmed, can find ways to work with this initiative - by being mentored by the beta test teams. They can also work to build their technical strengths so that they can be considered in initiatives such as this in the future.

.02
Jane

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

One major thing I think would help teams with less programming expertise is:
There should be one and only one "all-the-basics" default code for each language. It should literally be named the "FRC 2010 DEFAULT CODE"
Last year, we were provided plenty of example programs and options. Labview had both Basic and Advanced mode. C++ had SimpleRobot and IterativeRobot. I loved the freedom to choose between these frame works and methods of programming. However, the less experienced don't want choices (at least initially), they want an obvious starting point that just works. It should be like the old IFI default code that mapped axis and buttons to all outputs so it could be used in competition without reprogramming. The BuiltinDefault code last year didnt do much, it was more of test of controller functionality then competition code. Also like the IFI controller, the map of default code functionality should be included in electrical white papers for the cRio, sidecars, CAN modules, etc.

I'm not saying WPILib should trim down the options, quite the contrary it like to see more. We should prop up one default code that we all can understand. All other example codes must be available in the same framework as the default (other frameworks can be provided too). Those teams with expertise still have the freedom to use/edit WPILib and port example code to fit their needs (ex: my team modified IterativeRobot to create MOERobot class). This year was much more difficult to help teams program in the pits because their code was based off of many different examples. In prior years most were based off of default and I could look right at the specific problem (the couple dozen modified lines) without figuring out their code structure first. I am very optimistic that this year's Beta Testers can help create a great default code building upon the work of previous Beta teams and other teams during the season.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

All the arguments about disclosure/beta advantages/etc aside, has anyone seen any info on what is actually being beta tested (other than the "2010 control system")?

Other than that it will somehow include a Classmate PC in the driver station, I haven't.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

CAN bus to control Jaguars is likely to be a major addition.

Some other functionality I would like opened up and added to the WPILib (mostly stuff that was technically possible last year):

• Input from Classmate PC (keyboard, mouse, touch screen) to control the robot
• Live video feedback on Classmate PC (lift the restrictions and standardize)
• Network communication between allies.

As well as improving the current libraries and example codes.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

In addition to that, Java is added to the supported languages.
Also I believe both the C++ and The Labview Libraries will have new versions that needs to be tested.

I am also hoping for some access to the FPGA code that was locked in 2009.

Re: **FIRST EMAIL**/Looking for Beta Test Teams
 

Wow this forum got really controversial. :D. But an interesting topic none the less. Just to insert my opinion on the previous matter: I believe that the beta test teams did have aa advantage. But a good code can only take one so far. This year, the 67/1114 (a couple of the beta testers that i remember from last time) built AMAZING robots and they deserved to win. And the part that the programming would have came into play was the anti-slip code and possibly a trailer tracker, and considering that all teams had the same amount of time to solve this problem, I don't think anyone really had too much of an advantage.

As for the upcoming Beta Test, I'm not sure exactly what the Classmate PC will offer, but I'm sure it'll definitely be interesting. We've signed up for the Beta. With a bunch of teams within a 30 minute drive of us, it'll be a nice, central location. Although we surely wouldn't mind if 1746 or 1771 got the go for the test. Last yr, it was just a bit hard to make a trip down to midtown on tuesday afternoons to see the system.