Pre-college or high school aged?
 

I've been searching the FIRST website looking for the answer to this question and am finding a couple different answers.

The game rules from last year talk about pre-college team members being pilot, discussing conflicts with a ref, etc.

The "how to create a team" document talks about high school aged students.

We have a member who left high school at 16 and will be attending community college this year. So, can she be part of the team but not the drive team? Not part of the team?

And, yes, I know I could call FIRST in the morning. But now is when I have free time. :)

Trying to Help

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

Very interesting.... I, personally, would allow her on the team... but Im not sure.

I know a team that had a girl on the team, but she was held back a year or two, and she was on. That being the case, it doesnt matter what age they are at, as long as they are in high school they can be on the team.

Basically, I dont think she would be allowed on the team, but dont just take my word for it. :)

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

I was a member of the drive team this year while taking classes at a four year college (I was not enrolled in the school and the classes were being used as high school credit; I am 16 years old so I'm high school aged). It was considered free and clear for me to drive in both FTC and FRC as I was taking the college classes as part of a home-schooled high school curriculum.

I'm pretty sure FIRST doesn't have rules saying X Y or Z can or cannot be "on an FRC team", and I think the "high school age" line is intended exactly for this kind of a case (if the rule was "does not have a high school diploma", I could drive every year). I would see no problem in having her on the team (maybe she's technically a "mentor" but you could treat her as a student but I'm pretty sure FIRST doesn't care). If she's enrolled in the college and intends to get a degree there, I doubt the letter of the rule would allow her on the drive team (other than coach), but the spirit would...

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

General "High School" ages in effect, it sounds like she counts as part of your team. :)

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

Was this something your team decided, or did you ask FIRST?

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

I know that lots of homeschooled kids take college classes before 17/18 years old so it's not surprising to me. This year, depending on who joins our team, we might have one or two members doing that.

And our local public high school has agreements with colleges for high school student dual enrollment. On our old team (we split off), we had a junior who was in the public high school and taking a class at the local state college. So that was never an issue in my mind. It's the student who is completely done and gone from high school that I'm wondering about.

Of all the FIRST members who can take college classes (dual enrollment agreements, close enough to one, etc.), I wonder what percentage takes advantage of that? And, is it higher than the percentage of the general high school population?

Thanks for all the input everyone!

Trying to Help

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

I asked FIRST. I also asked the referees at the events I drove in (Wisconsin FTC and Championship FTC) if this was okay. This year I was the drive coach anyway so it was a non-issue.

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

100% sure she can be on the team. I've been in college for 2 years and been on a team for both. Granted, I am a mentor. But I find I learn just as much as I did as a student. And given her circumstance, I'd put her on the books as a mentor but treat her as a student. This being said, she is probably not eligible to drive unless it is cleared with FIRST prior to the competition.

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

I wish to mention that I've seen a few FIRST teams with Early College High School students on it. One team (forgot their number) I was talking to in DC came from an ECHS school. As best I understand it, ECHSs all but require students to take junior college classwork from freshman year to graduation.

If FIRST really had a problem with students taking college classes, teams from schools like that couldn't exist. (And if they could exist, they wouldn't be able to drive...)

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

The rules for both FRC and FTC state that the drivers and human player on the drive team must be a pre-college student. Anyone can be the coach or function as any other role on the team. There is no standard definition for pre-college, but each year specific questions are asked in the official forum. (Example - I remember one where a 16 student who had received their GED was considered to not be a pre-college student).

Since she will be attending college during the competition season, my GUESS (and I am not an official FRC source) is that she can do anything on the team but be the driver or HP (or whatever they decide to call those people this year). Whether your team considers her to be a team member and not a mentor is up to your team and how it is organized.

Do you need to have an official answer now? You can always wait until the Forum is up and running. Or ask in the FTC Q&A forum now.

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

I agree with Carol's logic. Within your team, she can do whatever you'd like during meetings etc, but as a student attending college she cannot fulfill roles restricted to "high school age" (this means students attending high school, as far as I can tell) students, like driver, hp, etc.

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

If a 16 year old who is taking college courses is not a pre-college student, does that mean that a 40 year old who has never attended college is a pre-college student?

Does anyone know if Jeff Gordon ever went to college?

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

According to his website he hasn't... but if you get Jeff Gordon we call dibs on Danica Patrick.:cool:

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

But I'm willing to bet that Jeff Gordan did graduate high school, which would make him ineligible

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

This really makes sense. The intent of the rule is for the students to drive and the students to talk with the referees. So that no adults can argue or take over a driving spot. I believe you can interpret this rule when they say "pre-college" to mean "ages 18 and under".

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

I think the rule is left ambiguous because it is rather obvious who should be driving the robot, and making a bunch of sub rules for each and every possible exception to the rule would make the Manual that much longer and cause that many more headaches.

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

The problem with that is that what is obvious to one person isn't obvious to another. Ask any lawyer.

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

This logic brings up my favorite joke of the season.

Lebron James went from HS to the NBA, therefore is he pre-college? If so, he's the best human player in the game :P .

Logic would seem to dictate the FIRST's intent for the rule is to either ensure that students are still in high school and not in college/post high school career when they are drivers, operators and human players. This gets murky for home school students because one could say that they are either perpetually in high school or never in high school. In this instance, if they do not have some sort of diploma or GED, it would seem that the most prudent scenario is for the student to cease being on the drive team when they reach the period of time they would have moved on to higher education (if you were born pre-September 1988 for example, you would cease to be a pre-college student in September 2006).

In any case, there's nothing stopping a "mentor" from participating in a way that resembles a student. FIRST was envisioned to make the youth of America(s) more interested in science and technology, no matter their specific age. And I'm sure any mentor will tell you that you never stop learning new things when you are involved in FIRST.

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

Ok, here's a question people seem to be disregarding. Does the student in question even want to drive? If not, most of this thread has become rather irrelevent.

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

Not necessarily.. For future cases what if future said person wants to drive?

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

This is something that FIRST HQ needs to answer. If a student is still enrolled in high school but is taking some college courses in Florida, he is considered "pre-college" by the state and still eligible for scholarships as a "high school student".

Pre-college can also be middle schoolers. We have 6th, 7th and 8th graders on our team. They are not in high school but still eligible to be on the drive team.

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

In our case, based on the past, I'd definitely say this person wants to be on the drive team. I don't know if commitments to classes will get in the way of our competition, but other than that, I think it's definite that this student wants to drive.

And, Wendymom, how do you handle younger students on your team? We were recently talking about hand tools v. power tools, supervision, etc. with younger students because we've had a few approach us. Do you have anything written down or is it more of a common knowledge approach?

I'm really going to try to call FIRST tomorrow. In my "free time". :)

Trying to Help

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

Let me save you some time. Don't call FIRST about this question. They will not be able to answer it. Until the rules for the 2010 game are released in January, no one is going to provide any specific information regarding the game, the rules, the robot requirements, or any associated areas. Wait until the rules are released, and after reading and reviewing them, see if there is still an issue that needs clarification.

Whether Jeff Gordon went to college or not is irrelevant. He is not currently a student. Q.E.D.

-dave


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Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

I called FIRST.

I spoke with Andrea who said that if this student is not doing high school level curriculum, then she should be a mentor and not a team member. I thanked her for her time.

After speaking with her, it made me wonder about all those students mentioned in this thread who take college classes as a normal part of their high school careers. Obviously there's a difference here; she's 100% in college whereas most high schoolers are part-time when they're taking courses.

I wonder if this will end up being like the battery question from last year.

Trying to Help

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

After what Dave just stated, I'm SURE there will be clarification in next years manual. And if not, that's what the Q&A's are for. ;)

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

[
And, Wendymom, how do you handle younger students on your team? We were recently talking about hand tools v. power tools, supervision, etc. with younger students because we've had a few approach us. Do you have anything written down or is it more of a common knowledge approach?

The rule on Bacon is this: If you have an older sibling on the team you can be on the team starting in 6th grade. If you are in 8th grade and have one season of LEGO under your belt you may join the team. Everyone can use any tool ( power or hand) as long as they have passed a safety test on it and the shop manager is ok with it. My daughter started using the drill press when she was 12. They gave her a milk crate to stand on to reach it. Kinda freaked me out to be honest but she was fine and the shop guys made sure she knew what she was doing before they let her do it alone.

Re: Pre-college or high school aged?
 

The new FIRST website acknowledges the ages for FRC to be 14-18 and also says grades 9-12