[BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009...classmate.html

Thoughts?

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

It's an interesting list of stuff that won't be in veteran teams' kits. I don't think some of it will hurt at all, like the joysticks, because there are plenty of USB joysticks out there. But the one that got me was the compressor. The control system was expected; we've been told about that for at least a year. But the compressor? I just hope that they give a link to a place that can supply them, just in case of one breaking. (Note: I don't know of a single compressor failing since they were introduced to FRC. That's a pretty good record of reliability...)

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

So the document Bill linked to would say the new team 47-65 or whatever it ends up as would retain Hall of Fame status, but not necessarily championship elgibility as that's determined by number? Bit of a sidetrack though.

The parts they want us to reuse seem completely reasonable. It'd be nice if we could keep the 2009 driver station completely together, but the teams that preserve robots to demonstrate and drive around are the same teams that can afford to drop a few dollars here and there on replacement joysticks (or didn't use them at all). The KoP joysticks this year were excellent, though.

Classmate PC is a fine replacement for the Driver Station. Hopefully there will be less dead Ethernet ports and electrical shorts. Touchscreen autonomous options as well as other fun control stuff, the possibilities could be endless there.

I'm glad for the electronic Consent forms, in case I don't get to a 1714 meeting before Kickoff.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

It only has 2 USB ports...

Not sure how this will affect teams who use 2 joysticks and/or a custom button board setup. Eventually teams will overcome this with custom circuitry. Eventually.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

They withheld the compressor from the KOP for veterans once before.
As I recall we only whined because we had to disable an older robot to reuse it's compressor, and that's already going to be happening for most teams as the control system comes off.

I've seen compressors damaged from overtightening the emergency pressure relief valve thus cracking the case, and others succumb to general abuse, but I haven't had one wear out. We have one that started working intermittently a couple of years ago, probably due to a bad thermal switch.
I doubt obtaining replacements will be an issue (Thomas Industries 405ADC38/12).
It is $314 though, so I can see the savings for FIRST HQ ($314 x 1677 = $526,578 w/o bulk discount or donation - equivalent to the registration fees for 105 teams):
http://www.drillspot.com/products/35..._Va cuum_Pump
http://cfpwarehouse.com/shopsite_sc/...mpressors.html (pictures wrong but price is better @ $266)

Refurbish an old one for $108: http://www.mastertoolrepair.com/405adc3812-p-4070.html

P.S. Somebody in Lockport, NY sold one on eBay for $108

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

(emphasis added).

USB hubs are cheap and readily available. Don't forget that NI makes USB analog and DIO data acquisition devices. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that the burden would be on the teams.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

I wonder how long it takes to boot the classmate?
Nothing like holding up a match while we wait for a reboot.

I can see batteries flagging at inopportune times without power at the driver stations.
If they don't supply power I think I'll look at carrying a few spare charged batteries for teams.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

So, anyone think this might translate to cheaper kits? It only seems fair.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

It wouldn't have to be the specific 09 compressor would it? I really hope not.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

They are cheaper this year. Registration is only $5000 for veteran teams this year.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

Glad to hear it. I really should follow Bill's blog.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

But we have to buy $1500 worth of stuff to get the same kit we had last year.

Isn't progress great?

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

One would guess that either
1. FIRST was getting more of a discount on the parts than they are passing onto us (ie maybe they got compressors for free??)
or
2. FIRST is actually making out on this deal... paying less for the kit, but passing on a lesser savings to us (ie reaping the $500 towards their own use... Im seriously hoping they are using that to build up their grant program)

Either way... I'm not a fan of the withholding/reuse... I would rather see teams have the election option (ie my team would pay the $6K to get a new controller and all those parts, other teams could elect to save the $1K and not get them).

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

I like this idea. I'd probably elect for the savings, but I'd like other teams to get to choose.

Also, my guess is with the current economy...some companies aren't willing to make such good deals for such a big quantity and the amount FIRST pays for the parts went up. So, they had to increase the cost of the kit to $6500. However they decided to allow a discount for teams that could afford to do without the part and Dean pitched in the money to make it fair for rookies.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

Don't forget that it's $6,500, in reality. Costs increased, but by withholding pieces of hardware, FIRST is able to reduce what we're paying at the same time as they reduce what we receive. It's no great bargain.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

Im kinda surprised to see that the battery charger is one of the items on the list to get reused, granted quite a few teams have their own complex battery charging systems which they may not even use the kit chargers in.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

I'm not happy about the re-use idea. But I like the price drop.

2011: $4000
2012: $3000
2013: $2000
2014: $2000
....
2030: $2000 (this would be the optimal saturation point ! )

However I hope that price of re-using everything continues to go down until its about $2000 to register for FRC . This would be the magic number to help FRC expand tremendously. Any other guesses for the ideal Registration Fee cost?

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

I don't understand this at all unless you plan on gutting every robot you have....

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

Or allow people to just buy the parts they want with a few less restrictions. I can't tell you how much stuff comes in the kits that goes completely unused.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

How do you propose we get to a $2000 registration fee?

Unless the KOP doesn't exist it's not happening.

Again, how is this perceived as a price drop? You're paying $1000 less for an item that is now worth $1500 less. You just lost $500 of value compared to last year.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

The components you are referring to I believe, but am not entirely sure, are donated (lead screws etc.. etc..). The real expensive items that FIRST pays for are in the control system, which we have to use.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

When we checked out this email today with our mentors they were frankly, pretty upset. One going as far as to call this "BS on FIRST's part."

So much for that 1K "price drop."

[sarcasm]I know, let's just buy the things we actually need afterward and pay a much higher price for it! Because that will definitely solve the budget problems most teams have. Better yet, rip it all out from old robots! :D

Cory, you're absolutely right! This progress is great! :D[/sarcasm]

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

The components I was referring to include: the excess of motors, air compressors given to all teams(when many don't use them), the kitbot frame(the majority don't use this), the tracking cam(which seems to only be used by half on a good year), and various other odds and ends.

If all of this is donated, I take back everything I said. However, even if it is donated...it is still a huge waste for all of us teams to get that much stuff that just goes to waste. Not to mention all the batteries teams accumulate over the years that they couldn't reuse because of certain rules. I'm not necessarily saying this on a pricing viewpoint. Just on a wasteful view point.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

Easy (easier said than done) solution would be for each (veteran) team to determine what major components they'll need/not need (such as the AM Frame) during registration before the season or in TIMS?

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

Then I can only imagine the confusion at kickoffs with like 100 teams where they have to hand pick your KOP out of all the other teams, lots of man hours for FIRST to custom make kits (unless they do it more simply on a box to box basis like passing on the kit chassis box).

Ours were all stacked in a room probably 50x25' at MN kickoff, I can't imagine how they would do it on a team by team basis unless you could reject certain boxes. and they just had a stack of totes to chuck boxes into (so you could pass on certain motors and the gearboxes if your team didn't want them for instance.)

Messy.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

I am very pleased to hear that items like the compressor will not be in the kit of parts. Team 75 has not used pneumatics since 2003 so we have a whole bunch of compressors just lying around. The kit apart seems like it is filled with only parts that are needed each year such as the new motors. This will allow veteran teams to save money because most veteran teams take the electronics out of the kit of parts and the rest goes in to storage and then eventually the junk box. This being said FIRST needs to ofter the ability for teams that may use more out of the KOP to purchase it online for a discounted price.

I love the new Classmate driver station, it should open up allot of possibilities for this season.

Matthew Simpson
Team 75 VP of Technical/Driver

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

I wonder how many different versions of the classmate that FIRST has to buy to comply with the many different wi-fi regulations throughout the world.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

Probably just one, since I'm guessing that the control system will use either the linksys routers or the FRC field system again this year.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

Ours did. Poor shielding and odd placement caused another robot to "eat" the front of our robot and rip the wires out of the compressor.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

It's actually just got a quad-band, and I'm assuming that all the extra instructions for flash drive use are for foreign teams.

Re: [BB] So, what about the Classmate?
 

just because nobody has said much... im going to put my 2 cents in...
point 1: the Classmate IS CRAP!!! the P.O.S.(i hope you know the acronym) takes forever to boot, can't function, and barely counts as a computer! at least the old driver station told you what was wrong, not just a blank screen...
point 2: i dont like the veteran "discount" thing this year. our team uses the majority of the components that come in the K.O.P.(except if we don't use pneumatics), and we like to have functional robots to showcase(like a robot with a cRIO, for example. we are going to be gutting our lunacy bot soon). showcasing gets us funds, and without a robot, it is hard to show a sponsor or the school board(which is FIRST illiterate) what we do. so no robot = no sponsors = no money = no team:( :( :( :(
so, i do like the opting out or in, and the "i want this in my kit" checklist.
maybe instead of custom kits we could all get the necesities and order the other things a team needs based on what they want. maybe a special promotional code???