FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

Hi all,

I mentor team 1889 (formerly the Haze, but new name chosen and will be announced when we have a logo :) in South Florida. Our regional would be the Orlando one, but the FCAT blackout period is always an issue, and this year the school officials were apparently not happy that many students went anyway, and a memo was just sent out stating that there will be absolutely no travel outside of the county during the FCAT period anymore. So what are the options?

(1) Ignore the school's mandate? Nope.

(2) Go to a different regional? It'd be a much longer drive and I expect we'll only get a small showing from our team. Yes, I know that teams come from other countries, but I'm being realistic based on what parents have stated already, etc.

(3) Form the club outside of the school? Major issues there, such as finding a space to work, being able to fundraise at school (which is a good revenue source for us). Costs would go up, and money is already an issue for us.

(4) Go to another competition grade (FTC or another competition altogether)? I'd love to hear about other competitions you know of that may be interesting and challenging.

(5) < insert other idea here >

Would love to hear thoughts on this, other than ignoring the school and going anyway. We'd really like to keep the robotics program going at this school, and the competitions are a great goal. We're going to start our own small-scale in-house competitions, but would definitely want to participate in something bigger, so if you know of other robotics competitions, do spill the beans. Other ideas welcome too.

Cheers,
-Neil.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

BTW for out of state readers FCAT(florida comprehensive assesment test) is a standardized test given from 3-11th grade to test basic skills needed to move up to the next grade.

I had the issue of Science FCAT Junior year interfering with UCF. While we were allowed to go by our school policy, I doubt it would've kept us from going anyways.

As a team, I would go to the school board and discuss the problem that your team, as well as others, has in not going to that regional. If you don't address the problem early on in the school year then you might run into the problem of reversing the policy. If you can convey the message that there aren't any options for the team otherwise, you may be able to convince them to make an exception.

Individually, if it comes to it, I'd look into the make up policy for FCAT. For students who aren't always well beyond the benchmark I wouldn't suggest it, but if they're comfortably in the passing range, it shouldn't be to much of a trouble.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

Usually math and reading are on the Tuesday and Wednesday before the Florida regional, science FCAT, only taken by juniors, is usually on Thursday. Last year, the science FCAT mysteriously got moved to the week, I don't know why or what extent of Florida had the change. So, still talk to your administrators and see what you can get.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

Get with 179 (SwampThing) and 1523 (MARS) and organize a coordinated response. They will be affected by any rulings.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

Thanks, but not actually the direction I'm looking for. In previous years, the previous mentor addressed this with the school, and for 2009, I addressed it with the school. We found a great workaround, which is that the students would go on Friday (which is a make up day), and any students who need a make up will not go. But after taking it to the heads of the school district, they said that only seniors could go (and it was a battle to do even this). We recruited more seniors, but they didn't come to most meetings, didn't know the rules well, etc. And because non-seniors came up for the competition on Friday (they're parents just called them in sick), the school was unhappy and has really laid down the law now. It does not matter if it does not affect the FCAT scores, etc -- they've laid down the law now, citing the official definition of FCAT blackout, and that's that. I know 179 just goes anyway, but we can't do that, and it's not a good message for the students.

Really, I was hoping for some answers with different competitions, etc. Right now, I'm planning to meet with the team & parents to see if going to another regional out of state would be a good option, but ad money is an issue, adding expenses for an out-of-state trip is a bummer.

Cheers,
-Neil.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

Move one or the other so there is no conflict. Get the Regional Planning Committee in touch with the FCAT folks to work something out. Details are left as an exercise for the student advocates...

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

I'm with Alan. Remember, the regional dates have not been released yet, so it's quite possible that there won't be a conflict, or that you can get something moved.

If the school sponsors the team, you could always pull the "OK, we'll go somewhere else, then" card--and ask them to help pay the extra travel cost, deal with the extra day or so of absence per student, and other things that necessarily ensue due to students being absent on a trip to another state. I'm not sure they'd like that financially, and so would be more inclined to work with you to find an acceptable workaround. Also note to them that competition performance will be negatively affected due to the reasons you've stated. I'm sure they'd just love a school-supported team not doing well because they sent it out with a fraction of the resources that they could have sent...

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

I've heard nothing but good things about BEST and BattlebotsIQ. If you can't resolve the issues in ways mentioned above, I'd look into either of those. And before anyone starts yet another Battlebots vs. FIRST thread. I am not implying either is better or worse then the other. Just that they can be good alternatives.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

BEST is a good competition, and it happens in the fall, so it would not interfere with the testing. We did it for four years, but stopped. It was just too much for this mentor doing builds for both FIRST and BEST:ahh: Now we do off-seasons in the fall.

With BEST you really have to get creative because you only get a kit of parts and you have to use only those materials, plus a few extras, and 4 motors. At least those where the restrictions when we did it.

Otherwise, Peachtree, Palmetto and New Orleans are right up the road (10 hours or so)

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

I already started down that path and the answer seems pretty firm, that it's based on UCF's spring break period, which is during the FCAT blackout period. Should I petition to change the FCAT dates?... LOL!!!!

I should be cautious about saying this on a public forum, but a big issue here is that the heads of our school are not very interested in this robotics program. Their grading comes from the FCAT scores, not a robotics program. We have an advocate here or there, but not at the very top levels, so threatening to go elsewhere is not much ammo. This has also been a hinderance with some fundraisers. Honestly, I'm done with that battle. As a former project manager, I can say that one of the best things I've learned over time is that if the customers don't want to change their app/way of doing things, then it's no use pushing a new project down their throat.

I'm in discussions with a few other nearby schools to see if they're interested in starting up a robotics program and partnering with our school for the competition. If they seem more motivated to help us push the district to allow us some flexibility with the FCAT dates, we'd officially form the team at that school (and our current students will go over there for meetings, etc). But the response so far has been less than eager.

Okay, so BEST I've not heard of -- I will investigate. I know of battlebots, but the friendly alliance-type FIRST competitions seemed more appealing for the students. For me though, there is a great appeal in sledgehammering into someone else's robot :D :p :yikes: Thanks for the pointers.

Cheers,
-Neil.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

http://www.vexrobotics.com/vex-clean-sweep.shtml

http://robotevents.com/robot-competi...qualifier.html

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

If I'm not mistaken, I recall Jane being a pretty strong supporter of BEST. I just recall reading a post or two about it.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

You don't have to demand that the dates be changed across the entire state. Just ask for the flexibility for the robotics students to take them a few days earlier or later so they have the ability to go to the competition.

I can understand the regional being tied to the venue's availability during Spring Break. But why must the FCAT dates be when they are? Is there really anything preventing them from being moved a week one way or the other?

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

They're pretty set...there are the state wide dates, and the state wide make up dates
past that there are make ups the following fall, but those are for failures, not retakes

no reschedules though, at least that I know of

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

Trust me, that was the battle that was fought last year (for the 2009 competition), and I proved that the dates the students would be out, would not affect them at all (they'd leave Thursday after school, with Friday being a make-up day, and any students who needed a make-up would not go to the competition that day). But they stressed the meaning of "blackout period" and said if it were broken for a few students, then other clubs at school would want exemptions too. We reluctantly got approval for seniors to go, and tried to recruit more seniors, but that became a mess, as those new seniors never came to the meetings and were very unprepared for the competition. I am not about to start this battle again.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

I'd check to see if any sports teams were given any exemptions, even if for only an hour or two at the end of the day.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

BEST is a fantastic competition. It is one of the competitions that the more the team puts into it, the more they can get out of it. It helps students and mentors develop in a multitude of areas and provides an opportunity for great competition.

Our kickoff is coming up very soon - September 13. It is a fall competition. If you have any questions, please feel free to send me a pm. I'll be glad to help in any way.

I've had the privilege of meeting members of HAZE and have been impressed by the enthusiasm and willingness to learn in the students and in the adults I've spoken with. Pretty cool assets for a team. Good luck with your decisions.

Jane

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

I've done some preliminary investigation on BEST, but concerned about the dates coming up very soon, as I'm out of the country until mid next week, and we are just getting things rolling for this year, with a new sponsor, etc.

Hey -- you're Purple Haze -- we know you too. We actually just changed our name -- to be announced when we get a logo.

Hey -- you're in Austin. I used to live there, and not sure why I moved. Best place in the U.S. I ever lived. I do get back there every year or so, and hoping to make it for the next Maker Faire.

Cheers,
-Neil.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

If there's a statewide blackout, I'm guessing that whoever does the scheduling knows enough to not schedule out-of-allowed-range games for any team.

If I were you, I'd start seriously considering VRC, especially if you already have the VEX system.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

We have run into a similar situation in the past here in Las Vegas when our state proficiency test week coincided with our regional. Our district was sensible enough to allow the few kids affected (10th and 11th graders on teams) to make up whatever test was missed the following week during normally scheduled make up dates. All states have make up times so they can get the attendance % requirement for the tests. There are certainly other kids not on robotics teams being accommodated, why not ones who really have a good excuse!

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

FTC is also a great option, especially if you want to continue your affiliation with FIRST. There are many different regionals throughout the year and cost would no longer be an issue for you guys.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

Gary might be hinting at the possibility of exploiting any double standard that might exist.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

This is true. However, I'm pointing out that if the sports folks are smart, they've avoided the issue entirely.

On a somewhat-related note, I know of a case where there was a schedule conflict with the FE exam. This was resolved by moving one of the dates balk a couple of weeks--now the same people are complaining about running into graduation weekends. Note that there is another event in the same competition, on another month...

Sooner or later, everyone runs into something like this. You have to adapt. My comments earlier about getting the district to help with funding for an outside-the-state event were meant to highlight, for the district, that by enforcing the rules, they would be losing some money (per-student payments from whoever gives those, possibly even more due to helping the team compete elsewhere, etc.)

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

Hi Neil. Sorry to hear that the issue hasn't improved (I've posted on the FCAT problem in the forums before). Here's some additional background if it helps you push your case (going from memory here but I'm pretty sure it's accurate) - I tried running these things to ground but always hit a road block.

1) The FCAT date ranges are set by the state, but the county determines some of the specific test dates. I tried to get the academy advisor to present the conflict to the appropriate people at the school board (department of assessment) prior to the schedule being published but didn't get any support.
2) All of the testing during that period is not necessarily FCAT. In 2008 part of the testing was actually the NRT (not required for students to graduate, just a school assessment test). Not sure if that is the case this year.
3) If you read the "blackout period" policy (the link on the school board website doesn't work), it was pretty clear to me that the intent is considerably different from the way it is being applied. Here is what the Palm Beach County Student handbook says:

FCAT Blackout Period
Each year our school district takes very seriously that schools are teaching the standards and preparing for the state testing (FCAT). To minimize the interruptions in the final preparation for these tests, district meetings are not scheduled for school based personnel (teachers and administrators) from late January through the March testing. This period is referred to as the FCAT Blackout Period.

It says nothing about field trips or extracurricular events, but it is being universally applied that way. If they took the time to put a paragraph in the student handbook about a blackout period and the only impact they mention is the lack of district meetings during that time, doesn't that seem like that's all it affects? I pointed this out to the principal and he said he was sure that it was being applied as the superintendent intended, but I was never able to discuss that with Dr. Johnson.

4) One option to consider is to contact the media, one of the local TV stations - I think if you point out the impact this blackout period is having on the educational opportunities for students it will make a good story. Show them the inconsistency in the blackout policy wording and how it is being applied. It is more than robotics - while googling for the blackout policy I found an article from the local arts coordinator who said that museums are impacted when scheduling special programs. I suspect that will have a large influence.

I had to fight a problem with the bookkeeper at the school up here, which I didn't discover until build season when I was going to order material. She stated that I had to get approval ahead of time for all expenses rather than getting reimbursed. She said if I wanted to change the policy I'd have to contact my legislator because it was "state law". After waiting 2 weeks for the approval, I called the school board (after I couldn't find the "state law") and they said it was just their general policy, but they understood the impact to our build season and said they would make an exception so I could proceed. It cost us 1/3 of our build season but we're set for next year. If you can find the right people, sometimes you can get a change made.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

We had the same issues with MEAP test taking in another activity I was involved in, and they had the exact same response "We don't care, we come first, this is the way it's going to be". Especially since the kids from the activity tend to score higher on the tests and they desperately needed them to bring up the averages.

I hate to say it, but I disagree with your comment about simply going sending a bad message to the kids. Obeying those in authority is usually a good thing, but not when what they're telling you to do is stupid and they refuse to see it.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

Lets look at the messages sent by either approach. If you follow your superiors you are telling them it is important to follow the rules even if it is a major inconvenience. Not a bad message really. I mean, they might get pushed around by bosses if they take it too far. But overall, not bad.

If you don't follow your superiors, you are telling them it is important to get the job done no matter what. Also not a bad message. However, if they take this too far. They might lose a job over it. (Similarly, if you go against your superiors they might disband your team)

Both messages can be good if taken in the right light and context. However either one can be taken too far. Be sure to show your students there is a balance between getting the job done and following authority. If you don't follow authority, be prepared to take any repercussions. As long as the repercussions is better then not completing the task, I can fully understand why you would consider just taking the punishment and getting the job done.

In this case though, the repercussions seem too great for the problem at hand. Simply put, I'd take what you can get it and be happy with it. Rock the boat too much and it will tip. The best advice I can give is find a new proper channel. There are always many. Some of which were mentioned above. I don't know if things are the same there, but in my home town anyone could get a meeting with the mayor. You might try that. If nothing else, you could get a big name supporting you.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

Stupid rules are still rules. They're not meant to be broken, they're meant to be changed.

One issue here seems to be that the "rule" prohibiting the team from attending the regional is arguably a misinterpretation or misapplication of the intent of the policy. That's something to work with.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

I understand the efforts you are trying to make here- and they may require bigger guns than you, the students, and the mentors can bring to the table.

Why don't you consider mailing your regional director for FIRST and ask him to escalate your concerns up the chain? Being an outside force he (she) may be able to bring in legal counsel as well to help interpret the laws that the school district has made.

Don't do this alone- use the FIRST structure that is available to help you.

If you don't know who your regional director is, try emailing Bill at Bill's Blog
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

We (MARS) have a good relationship with our principal, allowing us to be the only club allowed to do stuff during the blackout period. Let the principal know how important the club is and he can help you out. Keep in mind this event is educational.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

I'd show him how FIRST was featured in the discovery channel commercial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0jZzBEKIMc

I'd be impressed by it.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

HAHA, second that idea.


But seriously, try and get some support around you for your case. As was said earlier with getting the local media, sign a petition: students, parents, friends, even try to get some local politicians on board with your case. Once you create a majority, they become a minority.

Re: FCAT dilemma -- your opinion?
 

wow, I remember going through this when i was in high school.

Here is the course of action i would recommend taking.

1. As someone mentioned earlier, get it touch with other clubs/organizations that have issues with the blackout period. (who's events are educational). and see what you guys can do together. FIRST is part cooperation, so do just that.

2. Look into double standards for this procedure. cite other FIRST teams in the county (of course with their permission, we don't want it so that all the FIRST teams end up being affected by the blackout). I would specifically look into recruiting trips for senior athletes. If the school is so stern on it's policy that i does not allow seniors to travel outside the county, then those trips would be null and void.

3. Take the combined two points above to the school board and present your issue. Explain to them that your willing to work out some compromise (Seniors travel Thursday, other students travel Thurs. evening or Friday...etc.) Present the option that you can go out of state for another regional during a different week. The school board might consider that compromise and provide the difference in money for this to happen. If this doesn't work, move on to step four.

4. Use the two points above and combine them to create publicity. Get the team to make a press release, get on local news, write in the local newspaper (write in the school newspaper to get bonus points among your peers). This act should show the school that your willing to play hardball to get what you want.

5. Go to the school board and see if anything has changed. If it hasn't, wash rinse and repeat.

as for other programs, there is BEST, Battlebots and VEX, those are the ones i can think of for now.