Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/ Sounds abit ominous. Thoughts?

Re: bill's latest
 

Sounds like regional events might get most of the "good" of district events without the districts. At the right event, 60 teams could do 9 quals last year and finish early (granted it was week 6). Bet they're looking to extend that around the country.

More matches means a more accurate Top 8 and more fun for everyone. I would be more than happy to have 9+ matches at every regional next year, but hopefully not at the expense of Practice Day. Running until 6 or 7 on Friday would make sense though.

Perhaps the nature of the game means faster reset? Overdrive seemed like a quick reset game. You get bonus points for helping with field reset within a match! :D

Re: bill's latest
 

I think teams should keep there robots all the time, shipping is getting to expansive. I am not a fan of the bag idea at all. You will have another unenforceable rule and we have too many of those in first right now.

Re: bill's latest
 

Hmmm, maybe a new award sponsored by General Mills? Something to do with getting your team on a box of Wheaties?

Re: bill's latest
 

What's wrong with relying on Gracious Professionalism? The teams that would find it okay to cheat the bag system aren't the teams that consistently do well anyway.

Re: bill's latest
 

I like to think that the mentors would enforce the bag rules if for no other reason but to get some time off.

Re: bill's latest
 

For those of us unfamiliar with it, how did the bag system work?

Re: bill's latest
 

On ship day, you put your robot in a bag and someone outside the team (e.g., school principal) signs off on some paperwork. You have to use the serial-numbered zip ties provided. Any time you take the robot out of the bag (for a fixit time or a competition), you have to use a new zip tie. I believe the zip ties were checked at the events before unbagging.

Re: bill's latest
 

Realize that in some situations the teams may be told by people who are unfamiliar with the concepts of GP that they have to do well, I know we don't like talking about it but companies sponsor us for a reason, very rarely is it just because they feel like it. Most often they sponsor us so that when we do something their name is out there attached to it. I hate to say that some companies would encourage teams to break the rules but you never know.

I would, however, hope we are all a little more firm in our beliefs than to be swayed like that.

Amen!

Re: bill's latest
 

Sounds like we will see some positive changes this year. I hope we get them sooner rather then later of course.

9-10 Matches would be awesome. I hope this extends to Championship as well.

The bagging idea is something that should have been instituted years ago for certain areas. I think teams within X miles from their regional should be allowed to just bag it and bring it with them. We are only 20mins from our regional site. Having FedEx ship it there is really unnecessary.

I'm excited for the changes though, I hope we hear about the final details soon.

Re: bill's latest
 

In my estimation, if you want to see the future of FRC, just look at the 2009 Michigan pilot.

If you are not familiar with it, it featured "district" events leading up to a State Championship. The events were locally managed, smaller in scale, limited to 40 teams, and ran Friday/Saturday only. Teams hauled their own robots, and had an "access window" in lieu of the practice day. Instead of $6000 for the KOP and 1 regional, we paid $5000 for the KOP and 2 districts.

We liked it very well. We had 12 matches at each competition (which is enough of a reason all by itself). Mentors (& students) only needed to miss one day of work (or school) per event. There was an "objective" rating system for ranking teams within the pilot area & to qualify for the championships. The robo-bagging has its quirks & opportunities for cheating, but generally worked out very well.

A few weeks ago, FIRST notified teams that they had "voted to make the District Event Model an approved alternative competition format for future FRC seasons" starting in 2011. The latest from Bill's blog is consistent with this direction. Reducing the overall cost of participation is necessary for continued FRC growth (or even maintenance in this economic environment).

I hope this happens. We had some concerns early on, but were very happy with the changes.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

Decreased cost for FIRST and teams within driving proximity. INCREASED cost for teams in remote areas/States/Countries.
I just hope its not too much more. :ahh:

Re: bill's latest
 

I see nothing wrong with relying on the integrity of teams. If some team really feels the need to break the rules to win, well, in all likelihood they won't be standing on Einstein for other reasons.

We were very proud that we followed the bagging rules to the letter (and the minute!).

Re: bill's latest
 

Hopefully all teams will be able to go with the bagging option. It just doesn't seem fair to let some teams save money and not allow other teams that are capable to do the bagging option.

With all the talk about "bagging trust" why not have teams who bag send pictures to FIRST by certain time and date that show 1. the robot in the bag 2. The zip tie close up and 3. A picture of the person who is not on the team signing the documents. Further security could be to require a member from another team to be present.

Of course there will be teams who physically cannot take a robot to an event and maybe other teams can help but if not they will have to ship. If teams aren't close meet half way it would still be cheaper then shipping the robot.

Just some thoughts.

Re: bill's latest
 

What exactly is this bagging option?

And it seems as if the deal with FedEx fell through. :'(

Re: bill's latest
 

See post #8 above.

We're about 75 miles from the NJ regional and would have little problem schlepping the robot to the venue. We've brought it further for off-season events.

If FIRST can get, say, one half the shipping expense to 'disappear', it might be more palatable for FedEx.

Re: bill's latest
 

See my previous post in this thread or the FiM website.

Re: bill's latest
 

Let's not get into that. And I agree with nuggetsyl.

As for bagging and getting robots to events: Learn to work together more. 1676, we'd love to take a bus ride to Palmetto again sometime soon. ;)

Re: bill's latest
 

That would be TOO cool to endure, I'd have to ride on the roof!

Re: bill's latest
 

The bagging option is indeed interesting, but I have to call integrity into question on this one. I'm not entirely 100% on how this is implemented, for example how do they ensure that we actually placed the zip ties there at the moment we signed "off"?

But I would like to try to implement that FIRST-wide, but the issue then becomes the teams who have to endure the shipping costs anyways...it's not quite helping them any..

Re: bill's latest
 

Please, read the whole thread before posting. Consider it a birthday gift to me (also read the manual).

Re: bill's latest
 

I'm not saying that no teams break the rules or would given the opportunity as much as that the teams that would already have opportunities to do so if they get creative enough and really feel like cheapening their own experience, so not using bags as a preventative measure for cheating would be not as much of an enabler as it might seem.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

Ahhhh....the joy of NURC.....

(now, back to our regularly scheduled program)

Re: bill's latest
 

If it worked for Michigan and the Michigan teams can be trusted. Then why can't this "shipping" procedure be allowed throughout the FIRST community? Wasn't it the point of FIM to test new ideas and if they worked pass these things onto the rest of the community. FIM was declared successful, so it is time for the rest of the FIRST community to benifit where they can. Right?

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

I'm not worried about teams cheating with the bags. There are a thousand ways to cheat that could never be detected by inspection but we work on the honor system in FIRST so I don't worry about it.

If they would use the bags for teams who can easily transport their robots they can save the FedEx donations for teams who can't.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

If you want to cheat the bagging system, it's not impossible to do. You just need the collusion of someone who is claiming to be an independent observer of you securing your bag. Or forge your bagging log.

But it's not that difficult to comply with the signature, tag and logging requirements. Just don't forget to bring your log to the competition.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

Exactly!

Even without bagging, teams still have ample opportunities to cheat the system.

They can build mechanisms in the offseason and use them on their competition machine. They can lie on their bill of materials. They can bring entirely new mechanisms into a regional, not having obeyed the fix it window or weight allowance rules. They can have adults write the Woody Flowers Award entries.

If we trust GP to prevent these infractions, then it's ridiculous to say that we don't think that GP will prevent teams from deliberately disobeying the bagging rules.

Re: bill's latest
 

What about bagging the robot and swapping robots with your closest FRC neighbor.
You might be relying on them to bring your robot, but they are relying on you !
That's gracious professionalism to the max !

Re: bill's latest
 

I dont know about that idea.
I wouldnt want to be responsible for another team's robot.

Re: bill's latest
 

Nor would I, bagging worked out fine with Michigan teams. So it should be good enough for the rest of us.

Bagging would work well for teams that are going to be driving to a regional, what did teams do for Atlanta this year in the Michigan area?

-RC

Re: bill's latest
 

I believe they bagged up after the State Championship and then put the bag in their crate and sent it to Atlanta.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

I'd hazard a guess and say that with bagging over 2/3 of the FRC Finger Lakes teams would self ship. Saving shipping and Drayage costs would save FIRST and in the end FIRST teams a ton of money and I for one feel it's money better spent elsewhere. There are many ways to make Bagging pretty bulletproof - camera based evidence of proper bagging being one - it seems like a great idea waiting to be implemented.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

For those who are unaware of how it worked in Michigan, here's the Michigan rules supplement. See section 2.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

If it were to come to this, then integrity is lost. Not just by the few who might want to bend the rules or break the rules but by everyone. If a suspicious distrustful atmosphere is created, then a suspicious distrustful reaction will occur.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

Well, since we can trust everyone, why even bag it? Teams who don't cheat won't cheat anyway and teams who will cheat will have an easier time doing so (and as someone pointed out, teams who want to cheat will find a way regardless). I don't think this matters to me as much since I won't have the time to work on the robot in between regionals anyway. Some of us have jobs and school, you know.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

I can very easily see the physical barrier deterring me and reminding me it's Not Okay. As silly as it seems, if there wasn't a bag I imagine I'd be tempted to tinker / touch / fiddle with the big shiny thing in front of me. "Oh, it's just a quick measurement, that won't hurt..."

Plus the system isn't COMPLETELY breakable as it is. If you use it as intended, it prevents cheating.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

Locks keep honest people honest. They aren't there to keep thieves out.

The bagging system is a lock. Should a team want to cheat, they'd do it anyway. I would hope, however, that all FRC teams have no desire to cheat, and therefore it's simply a reminder.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

I'm sorry, Bharat, I don't mean to tease or pick on you, but - ever since I read this, I pictured pieces of the robot being carried in for check-in and a nervous student saying, 'wait, there's more - they're coming, they're coming!' and more pieces of the robot trickle in. In the meantime - more teams have started stacking up in line - some with intact robots, ready to go, and others with various stages of assembled robots and their pieces waiting - patiently, or, um - not so much.

Sorry - I just can't quite get past that visual. :)

Re: bill's latest
 

Some teams either 1) dont have access to a camera or 2) build in places where photography is restricted. As for having a member from another team present, that would work great around SE Michigan, but I imagine our friends in Australia might have an issue with that.

Re: bill's latest
 

1. Disposable Camera.
2. Remove robot from the premises and take a picture and bring back.
3. The program worked without the person from another team being there it was merely a suggestion. If it was required two teams could drive to a half way point and take pictures in order to participate in "bagging" instead of crating.

I just think that if MI can do it then the rest of us in the community should be able and allowed to do it. Whether there are changes made to the procedure or not.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

You mean we won't have to sweat out ship day?

First they fix TIMS so signing in is not an all day chore, now ship day is a snap!!

All the fun of running a team is being taken away :D

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

Naah, you still have ship day, still have to meet a time limit, you just don't have the drama. MI teams reported a dejected feeling about just putting their creation in a giant baggie. Not the same thing as waving bye-bye to it as that FedEx truck turns out of the driveway.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

There is something "special" about the FedEx truck showing up on ship day, but I have to think that in most cases having teams do their own shipping is not only less expensive, but will also result in a significant carbon emissions reduction.

I know our robot crate, shipped FedEx international air, often went from Vancouver to the FedEx hub (Memphis, isn't it?) and then back to Portland.

On the other hand, I really appreciated having the customs issues all dealt with in advance. I can see that bringing a robot across the border it may be necessary to open the plastic bag for the customs agent.

But really... one way or another... I'm not that worried. The people who have organized FIRST to get it to this stage aren't likely to set up a system that won't be likely to succeed fairly well. And the teams that have managed to figure out how to build a robot aren't likely to have a lot of problems figuring out a different way of getting it to and from events.

I'm also not too worried about "cheating". I have yet to meet a successful FRC team that wasn't based from the ground up on GP. No, I haven't met ALL the teams, and I'm sure that there are some amongst the 1300 that who won't succumb to temptation... I just don't think it will help them that much.

Jason

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

OK, another question(s) about the bagging system for shipping the robot.

When you bag the robot, does that mean you are responsible for getting it all the way to the pit area?

I'm pretty sure the arenas in SoCal use union labor to move the robot from the loading dock to the pit. The teams are not allowed to make that move themselves.

So do bagged robots get delivered to the loading dock? Or to the pit? Depends on the venue? How did it work in MI?

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

I'm pretty sure that it's because the crates need to be moved with either a pallet jack or a forklift, which are usually operated by union employees. With a bagged robot, you don't have a crate, so you can put it on a cart and roll it in. (Also, you should have stuck around for loading the truck in L.A. this year-- at one point, a higher-up told the union guys that we didn't need their help to get the field into the truck, as there was a simple ramp and it was taking forever. They concentrated on the other truck--the show stuff--and we loaded the crates in a very short of time.)

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

I'm sure the union guys loved to hear that. Thanks for the response.

Re: Bill's Blog -- Possible changes to regional agendas and shipping.
 

Michigan teams carried or rolled their bots into the pit areas, both at districts and at the Championship. The Sheppard guys were at Ypsi watching. (They did have to set up the pit tables and other furniture/equipment throughout the site.)