25 Series Chain
 

I was wondering if I could get an opinion on 25 series chain and whether it would be strong enough for a swerve drive, rotating the modules and driving the wheels.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

The short answer is yes. We've done it, I know 1625 has done it, I think 118 did it and I'm sure there are others.

The long answer is it depends. The Size of the wheels, torque of steering motors, size of sprockets, etc... Chain manufacturers post specs for their chain, and it actually isn't too difficult to check if your within the working range.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Strong enough? Yes, plenty.

Easy to work with? Not exactly. Because of the smaller sprocket tooth size, the tension of the chain is critical, much more so than #35. But, manage that properly and it'll be fine. Key word: Properly.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

We made a C-base this past year with #25 chain on it. We put it through it's paces and put it in some tough pushing matches and it faired really well, meaning it didn't break.

:D

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Yes, #25 chain is plenty strong enough, as long as it's tensioned properly, and is not subjected to any twisting forces. Because it's so small, #25 chain is quite sensitive to being twisted, much more than #35 chain.

We used it to steer our swerve modules on our 2007 robot, and it faired pretty well.

-Nick

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

I just want to add a few things about #25 chain. You can really only buy master links for #25 chain online, most local retailers won't have any smaller than #35. Also, the clips on the master links really like to pop off (it has happened to our robot twice last year, once during build, once during a match, and our chains were properly alligned with little or no twisting forces). Check them frequently to see if they are bent if you can, and if you have to take on off, replace it with a different clip.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Interesting. Apart from one time*, I've never had that problem on any of the bots I've helped with. That comes from 3 years of using #25 chain on 971's drivetrains and arms, and mentoring 254 this year (though I haven't heard of them having trouble with that in the past either). I'd say you guys need to make sure that the clip on the master link seats in it's grove before you call it done.

*The only problem I have ever had with that was when the kid who cut the chain to the right length inadvertently pried apart the sides of the link with the chain breaker so that it was too wide for the clip on the masterlink to seat. He didn't know that that could happen and cause a problem, so he didn't worry about it when he cut the chain. I carefully squeezed it back into shape with a wrench, and we never had a problem again.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

25 chain should be strong enough for pretty much all applications on a first robot. My team used it on our swerve steering in 2008, and never had a problem.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

We use #25 and custom built adjustable chain tensioners for the obvious reasons and for wheel alignment.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

1771 has used #25 chain as our drive chain for the past two years w/o a failure. Although the floor and wheels made this year a poor example since they limit the stress on the whole drive train.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

I would recommend using a spring tensioner for it, because this way you're guaranteed to have tight chain. The problem with adjustable chain tensioners with screw adjustments is that they can come loose.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Starting in 2007, we at 1251 have used nothing but 25 chain and have never had any issues with it. We have done both drive system and arm mechanisms, the chain is strong enough for most applications as long as the alignment and tension is good.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

We are wondering what teams use for a chain breaker.
We have tried all the standard ones.... and even modified a bicycle one.
None of them work decently... What is everyone else doing to break #25 chain?
The public wants to know!!???

We have resorted to using an anvil with a slot and hole and a punch.
Is anyone doing anything better?

thanks for your help!!

oh by the way we used #25 chain exclusively on our Swerve drive last year... no problems other than a resonance problem on a long chain run which we solved by putting in two "wave busters"...

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Team 234 took a #35 chain break (the easy-turn style on McMaster) apart and turned down the "point" that actually pushes the pins out so that it went deeper into the #25 chain. Then, we put the chain in a vice, where we use a punch we made to finish the job. It's probably not ideal, but it gets the job done and doesn't harm the chain too much.

With #25, it's all about patience.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Yeah,
we figured out very soon that a chain tensioner is a must and done properly.
For our West Coast drive chassis, we use #35 bike chain instead. Weight of a 25 chain, but size/strength of a 35.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

interesting.... You have a link? What's the weight per foot?

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Let me find the data and get back to you.
We've been using 35 bike chain since 1997 with our human driven Electric Vehicles and carried it over to our FRC robots in 2007 once we went with the WC drive chassis.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Bar none, this is it.

Dark Soul Breaker

Team RUSH, frc27, uses this device to break and assemble #25 chain. NO MASTER LINKS EVER!

There is a small pin perfectly designed to break the chain. Once you're ready to re-assembly you use the main breaker mandrel to hold the chain, then use a separate screw device to re-insert the formerly removed roller pin.

Eliminating the master link ensures that the chain won't fail because of an improperly installed clip.

:D

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

I agree that this is a great breaker. The only problem is that they are often sold out or back ordered. If you can get one or two, its worth it.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

This is hands down, the best 25 chain break we've ever used. We've been using these for two years now and would be hard pressed to consider using any other chain break.

They are hard to get, though so if you see they have them in stock, jump on it.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

We use a bench grinder or dremel, and grind off the tips of the pins, then the link pops right out.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Ditto on grinding the pins. It can be done very quickly on a bench grinder though it does get a little hot on the fingers if you hurry it.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

No doubt that grinding is a quick way of breaking chain...but; the beauty of the Dark Soul unit mentioned above is that it also re-assembles the chain, eliminating master links.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

How well does it reassemble? Is it the same strength as stock?

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

For those of you that want to buy a Dark Soul chain breaker, I did a search and here's a supplier that has them in stock and ON SALE for $22 until Nov 25th.

http://www.davesmotors.com/s.nl/c.885035/n.1/it.A/id.2258/.f

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

If you use the link to go order the Dark Soul chainbreaker, it tells you "it is no longer available". Use the search box in the right upper corner and type in gg220, and it will bring up the sale offer. Sorry for the inconvenience - but I did just order one.:)

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

It goes back together great. We have never performed an actual strength test, but we have used #25 chain this way for at least 5 seasons of FIRST without failure.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

I found that yesterday and tried to submit an order. It wouldn't let me past the "choose payment" screen.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Alan,
Did you use the gg220 code in the search box? I got a confirmation of my order back this morning. Youmight want to try again.:)

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Ditto on being able to order one.

Brando

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Just ordered one as well :)

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

I ordered one from Dave's Motors last week (Thursday?), and it just arrived. This thing works like a champ, just like Anthony and Jon said.

Andy

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

I just inked a deal with Dark Soul Racing to distribute these chain breakers.

I should have at least 10 units in stock by the end of next week.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

I just ordered 1 40 minutes ago. If I like it, I will have to look for it on the 221 website.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Our team has been using this chain breaker for the last 2 years, and it's worked great.

When prepping for our offseason competition, we couldn't find our masterlinks, so we ended up using the Dark Soul to re-press in the pins, like many other teams have. But I guess we were just lucky in guessing how it worked, because we misplaced the instructions and had no idea it was capable of doing so. We thought we were being smart. :cool: Can anyone describe the proper way to re-press in the pin? We struggled with it for a good 10 minutes before we got it in. Thanks!

On another note, the pressed in pin worked fine for us.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

1. Press the pin out at the desired location. Do not press this pin completely through both plates. The trick is to leave the pin attached to the outer plate. When you hit the sweet spot you'll feel the pin relax.

2. Turn the chain over.

3. Insert the now extended, but still attached pin, up into the re-press mandrel on the right side of the breaker. You have to first back this mandrel all the way out to make room for the pin.

4. Lightly tighten the breaker pin down onto the chain to help hold and align it.

5. Put the female end of the chain back into alignment with the other end of the chain and the pin. Use an allen wrench to push the pin back through until it is completely seated.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Thanks!

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Dark Soul Tools now in stock......Dark Soul Chain Tool.

In a week or two I'll post some detailed instructions on using this properly. If anyone else feels particularly ambitious and wants to beat me to the punch I'll gladly post your work and give you the proper credit.

:D

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Dark Soul tool is no longer in stock; I got the last one. Yet it is indeed the greatest thing since ... Andy Baker!

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

I just wanted to let every one know that the Dark Soul chain tools are available from Dave's motors again. I ordered one on Monday and received it today. I can't wait to try it out.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

FYI...

Team 221 LLC has recently placed a large order with dark soul.

We will have plenty of stock for the upcoming season. :)

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Good to know! I have one myself, but I've let the team use it the past season and it took some abuse. Maybe I'll donate that one to the team and get myself a shiny new one.

-Brando

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

For the sake of learning and understanding the world around me, how does the dark soul chain tool work?

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

Anthony, can you let me know when you get them in?
Bruce

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

1. You place the chain into the tool.

2. There is an alignment pin that puts everything in it's proper place.

3. You then drive a screw and pin assembly down....pressing the pin out of one of the links.

4. You stop just shy of completely pressing the pin out of the outer most plate. This takes some practice.

5. You then move the chain into the re-press position. Loop your chain around for assembly.

6. The pin you used to press the chain apart now comes down and lightly clamps the chain into position.

7. You align the chain sections under the re-press mandrel and use a similar screw and pin setup to press the previously removed pin back through the chain.

8. If you choose you can then remove the chain, take it to a firm surface and strike the back of the freshly pressed pin to re-peen it. Though this is not necessary.

We have been using this tool for four years now without a single failure. No master links required! :D

I will make an announcement in this thread when they're in.....it will probably be a few weeks yet. The new breakers will be branded by our company and will include a simple set of instructions. If any team or individual out there has the breaker and is interested in helping craft a set of instructions we would gladly consider them for inclusion into the product.

Re: 25 Series Chain
 

#25 Chain Breakers are now back in stock.

I have to update the photo....we put our logo on the new units!

http://www.team221.com/viewproduct.php?id=70

This is a great breaker/re-assembler. Each unit is made from solid billet aluminum and has a durable black anodize finish.

No master links. :D