Extra C Rio?
 

We are planning on trying to build twin robots and need to buy an extra C Rio! Does anyone know how we go about getting one? We know that we will not be getting one because of the discount for the regional you were previously at.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

I believe the phone number on the right hand side of this page is what you're looking for.

1-866-511-6285

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

Thanks!

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

Fred -

Before spending a substantial sum on those components, are you sure it is going to be legal to build a second robot? Are you comfortable making this investment now, if you were to find out at kick-off that you could not use those parts? I only mention this as a caution, given the warning that we all read in the first paragraph of this entry in Bill's Blog. As always, we have to remember that the rules from prior years DO NOT apply to this year's competition.

-dave


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Re: Extra C Rio?
 

Dave, I have never known it to be illegal to get spare parts. Should FIRST outlaw buying spare parts, I for one will most likely quit.

Should a second robot for practice indeed become illegal (which, may I point out, is a virtually unenforceable rule, other than by the honor code), then many a team could be doubly handicapped-- short Thursdays for practice, no practice at the build site, and it'll be hard to plan needed adjustments. Admittedly, should the bagging system go to all events, then the above paragraph is a moot point, as teams have 8 hours to practice/repair/adjust with their robot there.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

How could it not be legal?

What a team builds in addition to its competition robot has never been restricted by the rules. Even if all fabrication not intended for competition *were* to be outlawed, there's an obvious loophole: teams will just do it anyway. :P

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

Although my team is not in a financial position to do it, would it be possible for a veteran team to request a rookie team KOP and pay the extra $?

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

I'm in favor of not assuming anything as much as the next guy, but I'm trying to wrap my head around how FIRST could say and enforce that a team does not get to build something independent of their FRC build that happens to look, act, and drive like a robot they're building for the actual competition...

Either way a second cRIO lets you keep around last year's robot.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

God that would be great.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

We just purchased a spare cRIO.

This will help in allowing the software team to run in parallel to the other teams.

If (god forbid) our existing cRIO is blown out in a competition we can switch.

We get a discount on purchasing this spare for NI as well.

Use the number previously posted. The folks at NI are very good and will get you set up.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

If you are only reading the words in what I said, then you are missing the message.

There are any number of reasons that building a second robot could be a bad / prohibited / expensive / unnecessary / duplicative / silly / wasteful (pick your preferred adjective) idea. Regardless of the specific cause, any team thinking of making this type of purchase/financial commitment needs to be asking certain fundamental questions: Do we really need to make this purchase right now, before we know the rules, conditions, restrictions, and opportunities that will be associated with the 2010 season? If we do need to make the purchase/commitment right now, are we prepared to absorb that cost as a loss if it turns out that you can't, or don't want to, use the items when the season is unveiled in January?

-dave



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Re: Extra C Rio?
 

I agree with your overall message, but just curious, what are your reasons for thinking a second robot is a bad idea?

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

You could apply dlaverly's logic to any aspect of the FIRST competition (and life for that matter). We constantly make decisions based on imperfect knowledge of the future, we do the best with what we have.

I know we bought a second cRIO for basically the same reason barkersocal did. And assuming that it would have legit uses in the future.

dlaverly's posts does add some FUD to choice of making the purchase, mostly due to the "why is he saying this now" aspect, but I'm still comfortable with the decision made several months ago, and would still make the same decision (to buy a second complete control system) at this time.

When I first saw dlaverly's post yesterday, my first thought was "this is going to make for some interesting discussion and head scratching" :yikes:

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

I'm thinking its on the order of "What if 2010's XYZ is sufficiently different from the 2009 version that it would be unusable" or "What if aspect ABC of the 2010 game is sufficiently unusual that attempting to build now would be inappropriate (regolith)".

I think it is a part of a larger theme of "Even if we all loved 200X's game/rules/etc, recreating 200X over and over again isn't optimal or what we are about". Some people prefer Formula 1 racing, some people Rallies. Formula 1 is all about optimization and perfection, Rally Racing is about adaptability and agility. I believe FRC is more like Rally Racing.

Additionally, I hope that it is part of a "Think outside the KoP" theme. I'd love to see what teams came up with.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

I was referring to building a second (aka practice) robot during the 2010 competition season.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

Your words are all I can read, because words are all you wrote.

The message came through just fine in the rest of your post: it's best to wait until you know the requirements before committing to a major purchase that might not be useful. But the specific question of whether a prototype/testbed/practice robot might end up being against the rules seems very strange to bring up. It would be an attempt to extend control by FIRST into activities they shouldn't care about, and it would be impossible to enforce.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

That situation had better not apply to the cRIO. Veteran teams have been told they're supposed to use the 2009 version they already have, and they have been told how to buy another one like it. If buying a spare cRIO turns out to be a waste of money, Bill's going to have an awful lot of explaining to do.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

Disclaimer: I really am only guessing here (Honest).

The most specific reason I could fathom would be CAN connectivity. The 2009 cRIO kit did not come with a CAN module. Will the 2010 kit have one? If so, I'd imagine that the specific module would be part of the Veteran KoP and the 2010 cRIO kit, so a team that bought a spare right now would have to buy a second CAN adaptor in January.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

Here's a related question - does the $750 cRIO + modules discount - if used now - apply to the 2009 or 2010 season, since you can only get one discount per year? What is NI's definition of a "new" season? Kickoff?

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

I just had a detailed conversation with NI about what their policy is going to be about the timing of ordering cRIOs at the $750 price.

The $750 price is based on a calendar year. The year starts Jan 1st. Late 2008 was an exception. Many of us ordered a second cRIO in late 2008 for the 2009 season. All those early orders are rolled together and considered part of your 2009 orders.

For example, we ordered a second cRIO in December 2008. I am precluded from ordering another at the $750 price until Jan 1st, 2010. You can order all you want at the $1,400 price.

I tried to convince them that FRC teams really run on a school calendar year (or at least from the date of a team's registration for a FRC event) but they wouldn't budge. If we want to change this it would have to be an agreement between FIRST and NI.

I don't know what this means for the Rookie team who wants to order a second cRIO in the Fall. I forgot to ask about that.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

If we pay $1,400 do we get the FRC version or the off the shelf version?

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

When we ordered last year, we got the exact version as the KOP with all 5 modules. I imagine regardless of whether or not you get the discount, you get this version.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

Yes, that is true. Teams will always get the special FRC version.

The website shows a $750 version of the cRIO you can order right away and not wait for the annual special deal. This is just the carrier with no plug in modules.

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

Refer to this thread for more information about buying an additional cRIO for $750:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=70630

-Oris-

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

I am not sure what Dave is speaking of but many teams would like to have the "advantage" of having a new cRio to work with for the 2010 Competition robot. We KNOW that we are getting it in the kit...

Veterans are not getting the CRio for competition like the rookie teams are so it would be really nice to be able to order one so that it gets to us sometime in early January...

We continue to need our 2009 robot for demos to help new teams in a variety of ways and really don't want to tear it down.... having that robot around is necessary to both our fund-raising AND in helping other teams to fund-raise.

It seems reasonable for teams to be able to order one before the end of the calendar year so that this can happen.

We purchased an extra cRio last year to use for bench tests and other testing including testing an extra drive base...we use it now for bench testing prototypes. We can tear that whole system down if we have to but I am not sure what the reasoning is for teams that want to order a 2nd cRio at the $750 price.... to use on their 2010 robot should not be able to order it so that they can get this equipment on or about Kickoff.

Teams were allowed to purchase a 2nd cRio last year for $750 but I am not sure what that means this year... since we don't get the first one... do we have the opportunity to purchase 2 more at that price? I would presume not.

The full cRio for FIRST teams listed on the NI site costs $1491...nearly twice the cost of the $750 offer.

780405-01 For FIRST Only - FIRST FRC Controller and I/O Kit, 2009 12 - 20 $ 1,491.00

This is from the NI site http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/206678

I only hope that NI allows teams to take advantage of the $750 pricing before the beginning of 2010... by perhaps letting us order in the fall for delivery in January...

thank you all and Good luck!!

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

I hate to pull information from another post into this one, but I think this is a perfect time to point out exactly why we want more transparency from FIRST.

This is a huge chunk of money, and I personally believe it's absolutely silly to be in the position of worrying that you might not be able to build a second robot.

It would NOT be that hard for FIRST to put out this rule far in advance of the new season, or to at least specifically warn the teams not to purchase a second C-Rio (for whatever reason).

Re: Extra C Rio?
 

I did not mean to stir up a hornets nest here. Thanks for the advice Dave. I posted this on CD and did not check back in for a while, imagine my surprise to find all this discussion!