Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I didn't mean to sound like I was saying that we were picked for any of those reasons, or that even 610 was picked for being canadian (I saw how 610 was on thursday and was impressed, but I honestly wasn't paying too much attention to how 188 was doing prior to them picking us, except knowing that they were a consistently solid team in the past) if I came off sounding that way. I was saying that mostly because nearly the entire 3 days of FLR we've been plagued by mechanical and some programming issues, and I was unsure at that point how we were being perceived by other teams in terms of reliability. That said, I find it to be somewhat ironic that our only successful in-game hang was during the very final round with only one working drive wheel. Also, while we were designing the robot, I don't recall us ever really putting an emphasis on defensive capability, although I'm not exactly complaining that we're as good at it as we are. You can bet that we'll be using these weeks between now and Atlanta to get some fixes ready to install.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Congratulation Teams 1551, 217 and 174 on your impressive win!
Teams 188, 610 and 191, you guys played great and made it a great finals match!
Congrats Team 340 on your RCA!
Congrats 1511 on your Engineering and Inspiration Award!
I would like to say thank you to Teams 145 and 250; you guys were great alliance member. FLR was amazing and I can't wait to see you all again at GTR and hopefully ATLANTA!!!!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Oh wow. What a weekend!

Firstly, The weekend was made so awesome by the little USA v. Canada battle that Steve brought up on us. The judges got him good though - someone make sure to upload that picture of Steve behind the American Flag.

Thanks to all those who made the 6th FLR amazing. It was so much fun working on Field Reset this year, and I'll be there next year so long as I can.

Next, Congrats to 3157 on their well deserved Rookie All Star Award, 1511 on receiving EI, and of course to team 340 on their incredible and amazing journey to being Regional Chairman's winners once again. This year you'll get it at Atlanta, you'll see!

Congrats to Teams 188, 610 and 191 on their efforts in the competition and Finals. You played some of the best Breakaway on the field with some of the best robots of the weekend. Good luck on your next regionals!

But finally, congrats to teams 1551, 217 and 174 for their Regional win, and a super congrats to The Arctic Warriors team 174 for winning three Finger Lakes Regionals in a row! Can you say Three-peat?, Turkey?, Hat Trick?, maybe even Dynasty? Good luck to both 1551 and 217 on their next regionals and at the championship. 174 is done for this FIRST season, but we'll all be cheering for you for the weeks ahead.

Congrats to all the other teams, students and FIRST members for your own personal victories and I'll see you all back in Rochester next year!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Congratulations to teams 1551, 217, and 174 on your excellent run through the playoffs. When we won our quarterfinal match and realized we were up against such a powerhouse, we definitely were worried at the thought of facing such a strong group of teams. And when we did pull off a win over you guys, the elation we felt was the same as if we had just won the whole thing.
Thank you so much to our alliance partners 1511 and 3157. We had a great run and I was excited to be back in the playoffs at FLR.
Congrats to 1511 on Engineering Inspiration and 340 on the Chairman's yet again. You guys are truly the cornerstones of the area's FIRST growth.
Thank you to Steve and JohnDarr for the excellent program! This was one of the best FLR's I can remember!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Thank you to 217 and 174 -- you're the best alliance we could have hoped for!

Always, always, always, thank you to all the teams that have helped us along the way, especially 1511 and 340. We quite literally would not be the team we are today -- indeed, probably would not be a team at all -- without your constant and unwavering support through what I like to think of as our 'birthing pains'.

Of course thank you to Bausch & Lomb, to our local sponsors, to our mentors and parents, all the judges and volunteers.

A very personal thank you to the kids on my team -- many of you worked 80+ hours over February "vacation", and your hard work and dogged persistence paid off. Winning isn't important; trying to win is. Your dedication and "can-do" spirit inspires me to do more every year.

I couldn't have hoped for a more uplifting experience.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

First of all I want to say the Canada and USA game was kind of fun and thank you Steve for that chuckle between matches.

Congrats to 217, 1551, 174 for there regional win and I personally enjoyed playing such a great alliance.

Thank you to our alliance 610(again) and 191 for playing a hard and challenging finals round.

I would also like to thank a member of team 229 who spent a large chunk of practice day helping us fix our robot code. We had a working on Tuesday before the regional and on Thursday our robot code started to have weird behavior and we could not drive. Also I would like to thank all the other teams that helped us and came to our pits to help instantly upon request. With out these teams team 188 would have not made the finals or even competed in the competition.

I would like to thank all of our team alumni members and mentors who helped us through this season. Especially when something didn't work or broke they managed to use their FIRST experience to solve our issues.

The Finger Lakes was most probably my last FIRST regional as a participant and I think it was almost everything I wanted to end with. It is unfortunate that we burned our sidecar for our last match before the elimination round, however despite that our team performed well and with the help of teams 610 and 191 we are FLR Finalists.

Once again thank you to everyone and good luck to all teams in the future.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

To the drives teams who were @ FLR I'd like to know what you guys thought of the oddball system I set up for queing this year?
Did you like it? Hate it?

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

The regional was so much fun. I am sure everyone had a great time! :D

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

The Finger Lakes Regional is always an enjoyable event and this year was no exception.

While things didn't start off in the most exciting manner on Thursday, they certain finished with a bang. Just about all of the teams stepped up their game when it mattered which helped to make the eliminations close and exciting - something that perhaps not too many people had predicted just two days prior.

While the on-field performances were stellar, the stories from the pits that described how those performances were made possible were far more inspiring. From teams helping to rebuild robots to a plethora of shared resources to team members spending an entire day in the pit of a team not their own, the off-field happenings at FLR epitomised the ideals of this program in which we all participate.

Parth, one of our programmers, mentioned it earlier, but I think it's worth restating Team 188's sincerest thanks to Team 229 for all that they did to help us overcome our code issues. We would have been dead in the water without your help and we are so thankful for your help. (We'd also love to end up working with you guys one of these years, not just playing against you.)

Another team that 188 is dying to work with after so many years is 1241. While we didn't get the chance to play a match with each other this year, it's only a matter of time before we pair up and put on a show (see FLR 2009). I'm rather disappointed that our 6 vs. 0 match didn't quite pan out the way we wanted because (one of our sidecars fried), but with 8 balls in your offensive zone and your ability to deflect them back in, it definitely set up as we wanted. Next time, next time.
I must also congratulate Mr. Hobbins on his WFA win. I've only had a few opportunities to interact with him, but they have always been insightful. Having heard his accomplishments in the script, one can only suggest that he is truly deserving of the award.

610 and 188 have some unfinished business to take care of. Three alliances and 3 finalists finishes just don't do our teams justice. Your team was terrific to work with in the eliminations - honestly we were blown away that we were able to pick you where we did. Your mobility was spectacular, and had it not been for a few too many bounces maybe we could have broken our curse.

I think I would have to say that I was equally surprised that 191 fell to us where they did after they showed off their defensive capability late on Saturday. You carried out your job perfectly and if your drivetrain didn't run into trouble, perhaps the results would have been different.

We got our first real taste of 217 in Atlanta last year, and they brought the same A-game to FLR this year. I expect nothing but immense success from this team in the coming year (we all know the Chickens only get better).

I didn't get a chance to see a whole lot of 1551 and 174 throughout the weekend, but I saw way too much of them in the finals. 1551's ridiculously consistent hanging capabilities combined with 174's shutdown defensive play helped the top alliance seal the regional win. Congratulations on defending your title 174.

While the weekend went extremely well, I thought there were a couple of opportunities for further improvement.
Queuing this year was a little bit crazy (I'm glad the decision was made to call teams down instead of the original thought to let teams do their own thing). Perhaps a little bit more organisation at the entry point to the field and an avoidance of early call-downs would have helped to keep things flowing a little more smoothly.
Additionally, I got the feeling that the referees, at times, were dying to call penalties rather than letting the teams play the game. I completely respect that the referees have a difficult job to do in calling out teams of their errors, but sometimes letting the game play out, rather than having the referees decide the final score is maybe the better way to have things happen. Admittedly, a week one regional means a few teams not completely attuned to the rules, but even then, I thought some of the calls were a little harsh.

That said, I hope to be in Rochester again a year from now to witness and partake in another great event!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

There were some ups and downs. Since everyone was closer to where they needed to be queing went a little faster, but the thing I didn't like about it is that it separates the alliance partners and makes it harder to discuss strategy right before the match. Also you end up right next to your opponents who are going to be in the same zone as you and if you start to review your strategy with your drive team you need to move away or talk quietly because your opponents are listening in.

Also thank you to all the volunteers for making the regional possible, but refs need to be better trained during match 61 they missed a penalty on 316 and it didn't matter because the score was already 0, but what if it hadn't been?

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

My bad on the calling teams to the field.
We were instructed during our training to not call teams to the field to get you guys ready when you go to Atlanta but that went out the window when we started 25 minutes behind and had to change plans so everyone wouldn't come to queing all at once and cause a fire hazard.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I knew that when I set up the system that the drive teams would not like being split up to all corners of the field but that's why I had teams set up in Purgatory first so they could work out what they wanted to do there (if they showed up on time which many teams did not) til we moved them out to their set up positions before they went onto the field.
My main concern was to stick to the 6 minute turn around time (and even try to make up time if we could) as much as possible and this was the best way to do it.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Ed, for the most part I think it worked pretty well. The complaints already voiced are legitimate ones, and it would be nice to find a way to keep alliances all together until just before their robots go on the field... But then again, with next year's game we likely won't have humps that can't be crossed, so the physical separation might not be necessary, and the complaint moot.

Or it might be an underwater mobius strip knot-tying contest...

Overall, great job by you and all of the volunteers.

Patrick

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I hope they don't have something weird like the humps next year to split the field up.
It's a whole lot easier to keep the teams together and send them in one gate onto the field.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

188 and 191, you were great alliance partners! 188, you won't believe how much of a legend you are among even the youngest members of our team. When you picked us, I (who was at the opposite end of the field) heard our team cheer louder than they ever did before or since. 191, we were all impressed when you were zooming across the field successfully holding off two opposing robots. Sorry for our blunder during the finals that led to our robot flipping over. Fortunately, that didn't do much mechanical damage. If we didn't do that, and if 191's drive system didn't break at the last moment, we could possibly have won.

Congrats to 217, 1551, and 174 for their well-deserved gold medals. These teams were amazing and won award after award. I was particularly impressed that 217 was able to score autonomously from the far field. Good work!

About the queuing system: I'm not on the drive team, so I don't know what it was like on the field, but we (the pit crew) were all VERY relieved to hear that pit admin was going to announce when teams should queue. We would have all been 10x more stressed if we had to keep track of that ourselves.

One more thing that I'd like to ask 188 (and you can answer this by PM): I'm curious, what was the problem with your code?

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

This was my first regional and it was so awesome! Makes me even more excited for the Cleveland Regional at the end on the month. Was great to be in the playoffs. Also congrats to the FRC Dean's list winners. Especially Carly from 578

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

This was my first time at the FLR. I was not able to make it when we participated in 2005. I must say it was an excellent experience.

This being my first year as the teams drive coach I knew I had a lot to live up to. Paul, my brother, left behind some pretty big shoes to fill. Thankfully I had the support of my team and many others to help. Without the support of these key people the outcome would have been much different.

First and foremost Team 1551, Your robot was one that was on our radar during the entire event. Your ability to hang consistently and expeditiously was as impressive as your ability to control balls in the middle zone. Without your performance the win would not be possible. The number one seed was a title that you truly earned. Thank you for making us your number one choice.

Team 174. Never have I seen defense played so tenacious and effective. Your performance on the field is as intense as your spirit and enthusiasm behind the glass. Your positive attitude and outlook lifted the alliances spirit and made the elims much more than a competition. I looking forward to seeing you in future events.

Brandon, Commander Kyle and all who came from team 1114 you are officially Chickens by proxy. Your presence at the event was as invaluable as your strategic assistance. Our strategy was as much a product of collaboration with you as our robot was with team 148. Thank you for all of your support.

Last but not least my brother Paul. You are and always will be one of the best strategists/coaches in FIRST. While others may be thinking two or three matches ahead you have already won the elims. Having you at the event was inspirational to say the least. If I become half the coach that you are I will consider myself lucky.

Team 188. Your robot was amazing and its performance on the field was a reflection of this. I wonder what the results would have been if we had a chance to compete together in the elims. With us in the home zone and you in the middle I am sure the results would have been spectacular.

Team 610 you are an offensive robots worst nightmare. Speed, robustness and the ability to fly over the bumps makes you one of the scariest robots on the field. And if that was not enough the ability to score.

Team 191. You guys are a legend in FIRST and it was a privilege to compete against you. Your presence in that alliance made the dream team complete.

Congrats to all teams and good luck in 2010.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Why do the ThunderChickens go to events outside of Michigan?

The answer to this is very simple: to get our exposed to new people and new teams that they would never really have a chance to meet otherwise.

The 2010 Finger Lakes regional is the best run regional I have attended since 2005 ... that regional? The inaugural Finger Lakes Regional. The volunteers, the set-up, the teams ... This regional has it all. It is well run and has a lot of room. We don't feel crowded like at many other venues. Thanks to RIT for providing such a wonderful venue.

It was nice to see so many teams that we have not met before and to see some old friends.

188 & 610: I hope that both of your teams know that the whole Canada v. US stuff was all in good fun and for entertainment. I love both of your teams. I have followed you for many years as the Waterloo announcer and felt very honored to go against 188 in the Curie finals last year. 610, your machine is terrifying! I wish you luck in the rest of your events.

191: What can I say? Your team is an example of what all FRC teams should be. I can't believe you were available in the second round.

To all of the amazing rookies: This was the best class of rookies at a regional I have seen in all of my years in FRC. Good luck to all of you this year and beyond.

1551: All I can say is wow! You were on my short list very early on Friday. I am glad you decided to select us as your first pick. I thought our strategies matched up perfectly. Your play convinced me that a dominating midfield robot is a key part of a successful alliance. You guys will do very well in Atlanta this year!

174: Your ability to move from zone to zone very swiftly and change your strategy as the game required was unmatched. You defended the far zone and came back to run blocker for us smoothly and briskly. Congratulations on the Finger Lakes three peat!

Special thanks to Karthik, Kyle, Brandon, Supermom (and superdad), Jessa, and Stacy for making the trek out to support us. We consider you part of our team and good luck in your events this year.

To all of the ThunderChickens: You are all a part of my family. Without you there would be a huge hole in my life. Thank you for being so special. You all worked very hard and your effort shows in every aspect of our team. I am very proud of you. It is an honor to mentor along side all of the fantastic teachers, engineers, and other mentors and parents on this great team. It is also a great gift to have my brother as my replacement for drive coach. He and his team did a fantastic job of strategy and execution to bring home the gold. There is only one Copioli with an undefeated Regional record and it isn't me (stole that one from JVN)!

Now let's kick some Michigan District butt!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I would like to commend the actions of 1511 and their alliance during their final qualifying match against 217. For those who are not aware, 217 with their amazing autonomous mode pulled of a quick lead early into the match. Instead of participating in a 6v0 stradigy, they refused to play the match, walking away from thier controllers half way through the time as a silient protest against this years coopertition abuse.

Between witnessing the quantity of penalties, the misunderstanding of rules, and the difficulty that small teams had in this compitition, this game has given me serious doubts on wether I wish to be apart of our next Regional Event. What is further painful is the attitudes of many people I have come to admire. This game is nether Gracious nor Professional and I feel as though it has brought out the worse in people, using a loop hole to gain an advantage.

This is not the FIRST that I grew up with and hope things change for the better before Week 2 can begin.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

We do two events, our local event in Philadelphia and one "away" event. This year it was FLR, and it was great. Only 1000 miles round trip, three great BBQ places (Dinosaur BBQ, Sticky Lips and Quaker Steak and Lube), a pit area that was bigger than my first apartment. What wasn't to like?

Teams were a little more than we expected Curie and Newton winners, a team with a chance to "three-peat at FLR" (and they did) and schools with more chairmans awards than I have robot shirts. Help and support, 6 teams helping one totally rebuild a robot in a single day. A shop in the next bay with a milling machine and someone that knew how to make it work well.

Queue by Koko Ed was good, but the pit announcements were the best. Loud AND clear and timely. We never missed a match.

I hung out in the pits while the finals went on, and had the biggest crowds of 12 and under roboteers. It was cool to explain to them the robot and see the excitement about doing the same. Lots do FLL now and can't wait to get to the big toys. They were all in awe of our giant screwdriver.

All in all a good 4 days, the only disappointment was the lack of the famous Rochester lake snow. Maybe I'll see it another year.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

:confused: I'm 99% positive we were the smallest team there...

Patrick

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Was it a "silient protest" or a smart team that knew any points they scored would result in 2x the points for 217's alliance? I caution people reading too much into teams based on what they do on the field. (I was a victim of that assuming 234 planned a 6v0 strategy...)

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I think I know the match you're talking about; it was the one where 217 scored an autonomous goal from across the field and nearly scored 2 other goals, right? I didn't notice that the opposing alliance walked away in protest.

During the match, I also thought that the coopertition system was stupid. However, after further reflection, I'm not so sure. I certainly don't think it violates GP, since it encourages teams to strategize with their opponents to gain the maximum number of seeding points. I don't have a strong opinion on whether the scoring system is good or bad in other respects.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

We'd love to have you and the rest of the ThunderChickens back next year! It's always nice to have teams outside the normal area visit and test their mantle against the locals. After 6 years, the regional is a very tight-knit group of teams who all love to see their peers in FIRST succeed and do progressively better every match, day and season.

As a Rochester resident in the past four years, I HIGHLY disagree. If the snow wants to stop, by all means let it! hahaha.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

The whole point of Gracious Professionalism is that it doesn't matter who wins, its how you play the game that is important. What FIRST currently is teaching my students is that it is better not to play the game at all then it is to compete against the best of the best of teams. Not the message that I think any of us want to be sending.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

It really disappoints me that the first year we've ever had a robot that truly has done well -- the first time we've ever even made the top eight -- is tainted by such bad feelings from a variety of teams.

None of this would be true if people just played each game to win, as I am *positive* the GDC intended. I hope they clarify this in the next update.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Gracious Professionalism as (loosely) defined by Dr. Woodie flowers: If you're about to do something that would not make your grandmother proud, don't do it.

Being GP isn’t about loving everyone and having rainbows and butterflies everywhere, It’s about presenting yourself in the most professional manner possible. It’s about not regretting the way you interact with another individual or team.

If I were in a professional setting and had the opportunity to better my company by working for an opponent instead of against them, which option do you think my boss would prefer? Say that by working with Company X instead of against them, Company X & Y’s stock would go up 10 %, instead of just 1-2% for Company Y and 6-7% for Company X when competing? Isn’t it in both teams best interest to work together 2v0 instead of 1v1? I know which situation my grandmother would be more proud of.

Trust me, I don’t like this broken ranking system. But, if FIRST doesn’t fix it, don’t yell at people for using it to their advantage. If winning a match doesn’t help my rank but losing by 11-0 does; as a student why should I care if I lose? If, as a student, I fully understand the rules of the game and tournament that is.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

?? - I dont understand this statement.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

From what I got from talking to the team after the competition, Silent protest was not the reason. It was more or less a 3v0 strategy. Both 1559 and 291 were broken right out of autonomous mode and 291 was right in front of one of their own goals. 1511's intentions going into the match were to win, however after both of their teammates went down, they blocked their other goal so the opposing alliance couldn't raise their score past zero which would give their opponents less ranking points.

A very good strategy which moved their rank to 5th place.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I don't think any amount of bad feelings could discount the level at which Grapes of Wrath competed this past weekend. You were on the top of a lot of teams pick lists, not only for your amazing machine, but also for your incredible drive team and read of the entire field.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

It was an excellent idea.

1511 came up to us at the start of the day to to work on the 6v0 match previously talked about in this thread also.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I probably should have provided the link: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&highlight=234

Basically what I was getting at was how you shouldn't assume too much about a team or their decisions from just watching what a robot does. Like in that example, I assumed that you guys agreed to a 6v0 strategy when you actually did not. Or in the example of 1511. It may seem that they were protesting the ranking system but they were actually using it to their advantage.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

That is EXACTLY what happened! I am glad you posted this before I had a chance to post something that I might regret.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I really appreciate that, Jay. I know my team did extremely well, but I don't want *them* reading these threads and feeling that their hard-earned victory is tarnished.

Amen, Mike. I let it go at first, and wasn't going to when I got back to it...

And let's be clear that I don't think any of us had any intention whatsoever of kicking the other alliance while they were down and scoring for them just to boost our own QPs.

-------------

My biggest problem with the 6v0 strategy -- and the reason I think it runs counter to GP and to Coopertition -- is that it can be used by 'worse' alliances to *bring down* stronger alliances.

6v0 was used against us twice, and both times in games where we were very strongly favored to win. (One of these was the aforementioned Q70 with 217 -- you Chickens ROCK THE FREAKING KASBAH. (It had to be said.)). Because we won something-0, it actually cost us QPs and hurt our overall ranking. Only an incredibly hard-fought Q74 where we won 10-8 launched us over the very impressive 145 (and all the teams in-between) to the first seed.

If six teams wish to cooperate to play 6v0 to raise all boats, I don't have too much of a problem with that (though I would be lying if I said I had *no* problem with it). But when 6v0 is used specifically to bring down the stronger alliance, that is, to my mind, playing dirty, and highly counter to the spirit of GP and the spirit of Coopertition.

It is clever, certainly -- though I know of at least six teams (ourselves included) who had thought of and rejected it very early in the build season, so it can't really be *that* clever -- and it is neither gracious nor professional nor coopertitiony to hurt another team's rankings by not playing to win your own games.

It is my opinion that all FIRST teams should reject the 6v0 'strategy' completely as a violation of Gracious Professionalism. "We can't beat you, so we're going to make sure you get as few points as possible" is a very twisted vision of what Coopertition is supposed to be.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Yes, thank you Josh for posting that.

I am 1511's driver and I can tell you that we had every intention going into that match to have a good, old-fashioned head to head brawl of good teams. In fact, I was actually really excited to just play the game, rather than the system.

As Josh pointed out, our coach Shauna realized that 1559 and 291 were dead on the field and made a great, on the spot change of strategy that helped us stay in the top 8. Not bad for her first event as coach, eh? :)

Although I did not want to play the system in that case, I have to say that when we participated in the 6 v 0 match, it was the most fun I had all through qualifications. 6 teams working together, having fun, and exercising the strengths of their robots. Maybe not what FIRST had in mind with the coopertition bonus, but definitely a positive result of it.

I do hope however that this does not become a strategy that teams use for all of their matches, but I definitely wouldn't mind seeing it a few time per regional. Also, props to 299 and 250 for being the driving forces behind the strategy.

I would also like to compliment 1507 for their performance at FLR. They were one of the few teams that were ready to go and score goals, hang, and just play the game, even on practice day. Its a shame that with the current system, they didn't end up higher up in eliminations. They have a great robot, a great team, and were an inspiration for me to go out and try my hardest to perform well.

And last but not least, I would like to thank and congratulate our alliance partners 578 and 3157. 578- I was cool to ally with you not only on the field, but also on the front page of the D & C on Saturday! 3157- You guys did amazing in your rookie season. I can't wait to see what you'll accomplish in the years to come.

Overall, another great FLR, and sadly my last as a student. I must say that 1511 has been an amazing team to be a part of, and I'll never forget all of the amazing people and teams that I have met over the years.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

...but what you guys did in Q70 wasn't 6 teams working together, having fun, and exercising the strengths of their robots. You deliberately chose not to play a 3-on-1 game against us, when on Friday we *did* play a 3-on-1 game against you guys. It might have kept you in the top 8, but I don't think that "when the going gets tough, quit" is what FIRST has in mind as a lesson it wants students to learn.

We had no intention of scoring in our own goals anyway, and your refusal to play was a 'strategy' aimed specifically at hurting our teams' standings -- because it did nothing to help yours. I have very serious doubts that 'Coopertition' has anything to do with what you guys did.

I always like to see you do well. Team 1551 owes its very existence to team 1511 in ways that you and most of my students will never actually know, and we will always be grateful for that and the support that you have given in the past and continue to give us. Many of your mentors are friends of mine, and I wish you all the best.

But the decision to not even play, to not even try to win the game, strikes me as a violation of the spirit of FIRST.

My friend Chris came to competition for the first time ever on Saturday, and he felt cheated as a member of the audience that he took time out of his busy schedule to watch students not even play. He really enjoyed the games where everyone was trying to win, but his comment after Q70 was "I'm glad I saw some good games before I saw this nonsense. I would have just left."

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I don't think the coopertition system was meant to be a "no child left behind" policy. It was probably designed to encourage the use of novel strategies, like scoring on your own goal, not scoring, and cooperating with opponents to get more seeding points for both teams.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

IMO, I'll give you the last one, but not the first two.

Coopertition would let them show off their own robots. Let them score some goals even if you can stop them. Don't prevent them from getting to the tower if you're already way out in front. Things like that.

Sharing/giving spare parts/tools/etc in the pits, or helping other teams with programming or repairs. That's Coopertition, too.

But scoring on your own goal almost seems like kicking your opponent when they're down. It gives them no more qualifying points, but increases yours more efficiently than scoring on your own. It also confuses the heck out of the audience -- and I know that for a fact.

I have a hard time imagining that the GDC even considered that teams would deliberately lose games or score points against themselves on purpose.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Pat,

I see what you mean. I guess I didn't think of it from that perspective, as we never had the strategy used against us. And now that I think of it, I think it may have given us a bit of a negative reputation, as we did it in another match earlier.

Of course, 1551 did end up the #1 seed, so it didn't hurt you guys too much. But I have concluded now that while effective with the current system, this strategy of, as you said "giving up" when you know you can't win is not in the spirit of FIRST, and is not gracious professionalism.

Having said that, I hope that teams do not utilize it, and I will make sure that 1511 does not use it as a go to strategy in the future, as it is unfair to our opponents and our alliance partners who would just sit there.

I do still hope that we see some 6 v 0 matches every once in a while.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Here's the thing. In a way, 1511 was playing to win. They got something positive out of it. Yes, the qualification match was more boring than watching paint dry, but they were playing the game. I could go on forever about how the ranking system is killing the spirit of FIRST, but you can read up on that on about 4 other CD threads.

I have to say I thought it was an excellent choice and smart of their "rookie" coach. I wouldn't really consider it "throwing the match" or "giving up" but as a different strategy to get as much as they could out of it. Think about all the times you've seen teams like 1114 score on themselves to boost their ranking score in previous systems...

...It's all how you play the game.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I'll start by bringing up a common thought we often hear in FIRST: while we all promote the notion of gracious professionalism (and I am a firm believe in what it aspires to accomplish) we must not forget that we are all partaking in a competition. Winners are crowned and champions are recognised because we all set out with the goal (not the ultimate goal, perhaps) of winning.

Is this really any different than trying to win in the "traditional" sense?

If we posit that the best way to win is to seed highly enough to choose the alliance that you deem to be ideal, then we can say that this is the goal of a team at an event.

In years past, this goal of seeding high was accomplished by winning matches first and then ensuring the closeness of matches second. This year, it is only desirable to ensure the closeness of matches as winning is almost immaterial in the grand scheme of things.

In both situations, in order for one team to seed higher than another, that one team has to carry out certain actions that are beneficial to themselves but detrimental to the other. Where this action has traditionally been winning, this year it is ensuring that the seeding points of your opponents are reduced while your own are increased.

The rules about seeding have changed this year and teams have simply adapted their game play to fit the rules. If winning a match doesn't matter, why try to win a match? Can this really be considered to be contravenes to the goals or spirit of FIRST? In my opinion, this adaptiveness should be lauded, not scorned.

In the years of ranking points, self-scoring was a common theme, why would it not occur when winning doesn't even matter? I am sure that the concept of scoring on oneself came up in the GDC's discussion of this game, and if it didn't perhaps they should endeavour to be more careful in considering the ramifications of major rules changes in the future.

We were all thrown a serious curveball with the ranking system this year. A week in, we've seen that come late Friday and early Saturday morning, some interesting strategies are going to be implemented. If there really are serious concerns about what is happening on the field, then the way to address that problem is by going to the source, not by looking down on the way teams adapt to the situation with which they are presented.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I guess I don't see how this makes sense. In a game where until Eliminations, wins and loses mean very little,(The winner does get CBP) a "weaker" alliance using a strategy to benefit itself is not counter to GP or Coopertition. Actually, isn't 6 teams playing together the best form of coopertition there is? Do you expect the "weaker" alliance to just play the match and take it? No. You expect them to do what they can to improve their standings in the rankings.

Anyway, Congrats to 1551,217 and 174. 217 was amazing out there and it was a fight for the number one seed to see who would get them and 1551 with their hanging deserved it. It will be scary/amazing to see what 217 and 148 will do together. And we still haven't seen 1114....

To 1511, Congrats on EI, you guys are an amazing team and we will be rooting for you guys in Bean Town. Your drive team is very strong and I know you guys will have great success.

To 639 and 2852 thanks for making us part of your alliance. I wish could have played one match 3v3 to really see what we could have done. I wish you both luck in your future events.

Thanks Steve, John Darr, and Paul for the great calling of the matches. You guys are some of the best voices in FIRST and it's always a pleasure to have you at FLR.

To all the teams, Congrats on being part of another amazing FLR.

And last but not least, all the volunteers whose countless hours and dedication make the Finger Lakes Regional possible, Thank You. An amazing event would not be possible without you. We all appreciate it.

See you in ATLANTA!!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

FLR Webcast Viewers, I appoligize about the quality of the well... stop motion webcast of flr. This years goal was to at least get something up there so we can get the viewership data we need to build a higher quality webcast next year.

Next year we will do our best to bring a non slide show webcast of finger lakes ;-)

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Wow, this year was so much fun. A little dissapointing but we weren't on our game. I just wanna thank all you guys for helping us out with parts and with helping righting us when we tipped. We kept getting caught off gaurd by the bump in the carpet from the plywood holding the bump in place.
I would also like to thank 1511 for letting us borrow grease to get a spare motor ready.
No more regionals this year, it just wasn't in the budget. Hopefully we'll see some of you guys at IRI later this year. If not I hope ypu had fun and see yall next year!!! ::safety::

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Is the webcast archived somewhere?

Patrick

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I'd just like to point this out it doesn't matter what the groundhog says it's FLR that signals the end of winter for rochestarians. The past three years as soon as the second day of FLR comes you can start to see the grass again and the snow stops falling.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I would like to second this question, or better yet, does anyone have videos from flr this year? If you do, it would be awesome if you post them on youtube, thanks.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Last year, I recorded it on my harddrive and parsed/uploaded the videos to TBA. I didn't have time to this year, I also hope someone has it recorded.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

There was no team recording station this year. Only the webcast guys might have the full thing.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

This year's scoring system adds an extra level of strategy to the competition. In order to succeed, you have to win on both. Theoretically, under this system, a team could win all 10 of their qualifying matches and still not make it into eliminations. Winning may not be important in FIRST, but being recognized for your achievements is, and being denied the finals because you won by too large of a margin does not follow FIRST's philosophy. I can see why people might be angry over the strategy of scoring on the other team's goal, but teams compete to win the competition, not just the game. If you are going to compete without trying to win, then there's no point in having a competition, we might as well just have teams individually show off their robot, and there's no fun in that. :(

Just my two cents...

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

The best I have are some videos without sound of the matches our robot was in taken by a mentor, and they focus mainly on our robot's actions. I DVR'ed the Friday matches, but the quality was pretty bad and I didn't bother converting it to a digital format (since I already had my team's videos).

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I know i'm a little late to congratulate teams 1551, 217, and 174. No matter what anyone says about the complex scoring strategies it wasn't that for this winning alliance. They earned it! They gave it their all with great robots and awesome teams and we could all see that! And congratulations to team 340 for the Chairman's Award!

Good luck with the rest of your season! :)

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

This is late, but I would like to extend my thanks to our alliance partners.
188: thanks for choosing us. We love competing alongside you, and one of these times we'll win it all! Your robot was really solid, and had quite the shot. I could tell you spent quite a bit of time refining your kicker design so you could have controlled shots from any zone. Well done!
191: It was great working with you as well. You really held your own on defense. It's unfortunate you had mechanical difficulties, but seeing your successful hang from the tower was impressive. I'm sure you will get things fixed up and will be a strong contender at your next regional.
And now for our worthy competitors: your victory was well deserved. I was especially impressed by 217's strategy. Kicking the three balls from the defensive zone and then moving over to offense was incredibly effective. Even though kicking the balls in from a distance may be more glamorous, you consistently pushed them in (often two at a time!) which worked really well. Not to mention that your beefy drive train was hard to defend!
We had a great time at this competition and learned a lot. I unfortunately didn't take to time to understand the ranking system, so we were ranked pretty low by the end of the qualification matches. I don't think we'll be playing defense during qualifications at our next regional :)

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

We can only hope that someone had the foresight to record the TV broadcast with their DVR.
I usually ask my ex to record it but I completely forgot because I had otehr things on my mind.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

It's starting to look like you wrote some of my scripts.:rolleyes:

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Ya, Steve, it was great when you couldn't pronounce some of the words the judges gave you. Pricelss.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I have doctor's handwriting.
If I would have written it you would not have been able to speak at all...

....which means I would have gotten the job immediately.:p

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Hehe, "ubiquitous", that was just plain mean.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

LOL. Two years ago, 1551 was almost snowed out of the second and third day, and Bausch & Lomb (have I mentioned I love Bausch & Lomb?) sprung for a last-minute hotel because our superintendent was not going to let us return -- and then we went on to the semifinals, which was sweet.

We got *feet* of snow.

I have already contacted the YNN network to see if I can get a copy of the entire broadcast. I'm not sure what they'd charge me for it, but I wantwantWANT it!

See my most recent post in the "A novel strategy" thread for my thoughts on this.

Askflh oowern weong woirg! (Said the judges, as interpreted by Steve...)

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

We came to the competition to play hard and, hopefully, to win. By match 70, we had an excellent shot at getting ourselves a spot in the top 8 teams and guaranteeing that we’d advance to the elimination rounds. We believed that, with good alliance picks, we’d have a real chance at winning the regional (in fact, ours was the ONLY alliance to win a match against the winning alliance during the elimination rounds).

Once match 70 began and two of our alliance’s three robots were inoperative, our best chance of getting a lot of seeding points and staying in the top 8 was to do exactly what we did. I don’t like it, and I doubt that anyone else on our team much liked it either, but that’s how the rules are this year. I’d love to see them changed.

If we had been seeded down in the 20’s or 30’s, it would have been pretty pointless to park our robot in front of our goal. Our best shot at that point would have been to play as hard as we could and hope that one of the top 8 teams would notice how well our robot worked.

We weren’t just trying to win a match. We were trying to win the entire competition, and we came very close indeed. If you still believe that’s a violation of the spirit of FIRST, then we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

The YNN folks broadcast it on the cable channel - surely they have the whole thing....

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I'll put my 2 cents in on the scoring system. The scenario that played out here, played out at other regionals too - and with the same hullabaloo. The scenario was extensively discussed on CD prior to the beginning of the competition season. The GD committee had plenty of time to change the rules if they thought the rules needed changing - but they obviously did not.

In a purposeful 6 v 0 match there is absolutely no violation of GP or Coopertition - it is in fact the ultimate coopertition in that if no one accidentaly commits a penalty - everyone maxes out their score. What could be more cooperative than everyone working together for a max score? The point is to get into the elimination rounds during seeding and that particular strategy raises everyone's boats virtually evenly. It is no different than scoring on your own goals or stopping scoring on an opponents to reduce the chance of an "overkill" penalty as happened last year.

In the case of the second match where two robots failed - one right in front of the goal - I'd call the decision to not allow points to be scored for the losing team - each one counting for 2x the score for what will be an almost certain loss - the proper defensive move given the rules of the game. Games have different modes - offensive, defensive and cooperative. This was a defensive call and IMHO a good one. Give the teams different game rules and the strategy would have been very different. But the game rules this year worked for that particular scenario.

If two robots are disabled on one team due to mechanical failure do we expect the other team to disable two of their robots to be "graciously professional"? Hardly. I don't understand why you would believe that using a well documented scoring rule that remained unchanged during build season (the GD crew had plenty of time to change it if they believed it was unfair or not GP, or to add a rule that using it in the way it was used would entail a penalty) is somehow not graciously professional.

As your opponent my goal is to score more seeding points than you do in the seeding rounds and to beat you by winning in the elimination rounds. That is exactly what was done. If the game design committee does not want such things to happen in the future then they should design a game that doesn't allow such a thing to happen. IF not then we should assume that they left that scoring opportunity in there on purpose for reasons known only to them.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

To all the teams who enjoyed the action at FLR last weekend cone back in October to Webster Thomas for the Ruckus to play this game again the right way (as in the way we played it Saturday afternoon all day long) for the 2010 Rah Cha Cha Ruckus.
Not only is it great competition but a who lotta fun at a reasonable price.
Keep your calendar open for late October to come on down!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

We didn't "quit" we used our intelligence. One of our students said it best... we weren't playing to win each match, we were playing to win the Regional. If we had played 3v1, we probably could have stopped you guys from scoring so many points either by stealing balls or by playing defense... so that would have hurt your rank score as well. What we did (while I have to say I don't like that there is a system where this is the best strategy), was allow you guys to score the maximum amount of points by having access to all of the balls and not trying to lower your score, which in effect boosts our rank score. Yes it is horrible for spectators, but FIRST designed the tournament structure this way, and we are going to play to win the event. Our robot was less than stellar in a few matches, your robot was working perfectly nearly the entire event. Our chances of being picked were probably fairly low, so we played to be able to pick.

Granted as I said in my other post, our data showed that the majority of the teams in the top 8 actually played to win their matches, so maybe the system isn't so broken. What the system does allow is for teams to "game the ranking system" at least in week 1. And we have spent years developing a strategy team that designs a robot to core strategies and looks for ways to win the events. It is unfortunate that this year ways to win the event include just sitting there and not starving your opponents of balls, but I'm sorry, that's how the tournament rules are written. I don't think it's un-GP to play to how the rules are written, if thats the case, we need to talk to FIRST about not writing un-GP rules. People complained about this "loophole" from the beginning and FIRST had 7 weeks to "fix it" before it played out that way, but they didn't. I do think its a terrible game for spectators because of that, but unfortunately, FIRST designed it, we are just going to play it. I am really hoping that teams stop playing defense so these strategies become less and less advantageous. But as long as there are robots out there to play defense in the qualifiers, we are going to have a tough time saying no to playing strategies that boost our ranks in that fashion.

And I will be honest, our alliance partners for our first 3v0 match (sort of 4v0), as well as the 6v0 match both thanked us, and said it was a lot of fun and that it helped their ranks (something their kids were excited to see). So while bizzare for the spectators, the teams had fun. Calling 1511 un-GP for playing a game that FIRST designed is kind of hurtful, our kids and student coach worked & thought really hard to get to 5th seed, and that was their goal. They weren't trying to "exploit" the system, they were "thinking outside the box" and playing to win the event, not the matches. I for one am very proud of them for understanding the rules and the ranking system enough to get themselves to 5th place even with a robot that wasn't functioning the way we intended. Play smarter... not harder...

But Pat, your kids should be proud either way, their robot and drive team performed amazingly and was on everyone's radar from the beginning, to see you guys in the number one seed couldn't have made us more proud. Weird ranking system or not, they played to win, and there is no reason for their number one seed and regional win to be tainted... it was pure blood sweat and tears, and rest assured, everyone at FLR or anyone that watched your matches knows it.

I for one am hoping that everyone just lets everyone play the game how they want and stops calling other teams un-GP for playing in particular ways. Its not like teams are running out and tipping other teams or pinning and disabling, or ripping out wires or disconnecting batteries. The game is what it is, and MY grandmother would be proud of kids using their brains to play an intelligent game, exciting or not. Maybe its not the best or most exciting show, but its up to FIRST to design the excitement, its up to us to compete... and for some teams competing is in every match, for others competing is for the event. In my mind the best FIRST games are where those two go hand in hand, but in this game they don't always.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Congrats to all the teams this year. It was a great experience inspecting your robots and hearing some of your stories from this past year.

Major congrats to team 3157 for winning Rookie All Star. Its been amazing working with all of you during this past season.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Yes congratulations to all the rookie teams! I got a chance to meet a lot of you and you guys did awesome! :) I hope to see you out there for years to come!

And I don't believe I said it on here yet but congratulations (as usual) to 340 for winning RCA, I'm really rooting for you guys in Atlanta this year! :)
Also to all of the Regional finalists and champions! You guys put on quite an amazing show and had some pretty amazing robots, Congrats!

And lastly a huge thanks and congrats to John Hobbins of 1241 for winning Regional WFA and Kate Leipold for the volunteer award. Thank you for all the hard work you guys do!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

They won't release it -- I already called. :/

I did a quick check of regional results -- Coopertition Award winner vs. seeding -- and found that every Coopertition Award winner was in the top three seeds. (I don't have seeding data for Peachtree, but it was true for all the others, including Oregon where there was a tie for the award by the 2nd and 3rd seeded teams).

I think this hullabaloo might go away when people realize that it is basically an ineffective strategy.

I cannot pretend to fathom their minds on this one, Kim.

There were some hurt feelings on my team that you guys walked away from your controls. We were looking forward to a good game.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not this is GP -- our friendship is more important than who ranked where and why. I want to be perfectly clear that we understand that you guys *did not think it was against GP*, and that you wouldn't even consider doing it if you did. This isn't an issue of anyone choosing to go against GP, it is an issue of disagreement on whether or not something is GP, and that's fundamentally different.

Patrick

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

That was my sister. It's great to have something to nag to her about.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Thanks to those on 1511 for the clarification. Personally, I was giving you the benfit of the doubt, and in all honesty I am angry at the system and not at any of the teams here. I understand the drives and motivations, and why you did what you did. We'll just have to agree to disagree in this case.

I've also talked to one of our senior mentors who really has his head on straight. As he puts it, "no matter how much people want life to be fair, it isn't and these are the rules we have to work with. Number one we are here for our students and not to compete."

After this past weekend, I'm sure there will be alot of internal debate as far as what to do next at Cleveland. Ultimately, the call of stratigy is left on the field with our students. However, we designed our robot specifically to be a Mid Field Robot, and some times that means playing some heavy defense in order to win with a low score.

Hopefully at the end of this season, there will be no lasting hard feelings all around.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I wasn't aware that we ranked low because we didn't understand the ranking system. I thought we had the philosophy of "let's show the other teams' scouters what we can do and they'll pick up".

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Ubiquitous, competitio, sponsorship...what else?

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Anything without an ou next to each other pretty much ruined Steve.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

In her own words:

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Thanks for joining the party!
I wish that we could have played a match with all robots working, but so goes life. If we had us all going, we would have rolled easily in to the semis, and maybe into finals. Remember the round where we scored 5-7 by ourselves? Anyways, you guys were fun to have as an alliance, and we hope to see you at FLR next year!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Personally, the team I'd most like to thank for being at FLR is team 3162, and my favorite moment was when they won the "Most Inspirational" award and everyone "clapped" in ASL. That was amazing, and I think that really shows the spirit of FIRST. :D

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Sponsorship was spelt spocoship

I have to laugh at myself sometimes too. No use in having fun if you can't make fun of yourself.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I can't tell you how proud I am of that team. When I approached Joe, Gary, and Wendy about the idea of a joint Rochester School for the Deaf/NTID team, they enthusiastically dove head-first into this swirling melee that is FIRST. Watching the Deaf/hearing interactions at the B&L team social on Friday was quite fun, too.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Ok, spocoship has potential. LOTS of potential.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Webcast footage was not recorded intentianally because our focus was to obtain viewership data for 2011's webcast.

Next year I could look into what resources could be brought together to record that crystal clear feed you might have seen on the flat screen tv on the field, if that will be of interest to any of you.

The highest priority however will be to serve our viewers with at least a non "stop motion" feed of the regional next year.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Webcast footage was not recorded intentianally because our focus was to obtain viewership data for 2011.

Next year I could look into what resources could be brought together to record that crystal clear feed you might have seen on the flat screen tv on the field, if that will be of interest to any of you.

The highest priority however will be to serve our viewers with at least a non "stop motion" feed of the regional.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

It took me a while to get over here - but a HUGE thank you to all the volunteers that gave so many hours to make this work. We really do have a high quality event, and it's in no small way contributed to our countless volunteers!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

And thank YOU, Kate! FLR wouldn't be the success it is without your tireless efforts!

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Heres a link to some of the FLR matches:

http://www.youtube.com/user/team1241

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Even more videos:

http://normandy.hopto.org/videos/2010/roc/

Compliments of Dan Capizzi (1126)

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Thanks that was very help full coach :D Can always depend on you :cool: