Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

:confused: I'm 99% positive we were the smallest team there...

Patrick

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Was it a "silient protest" or a smart team that knew any points they scored would result in 2x the points for 217's alliance? I caution people reading too much into teams based on what they do on the field. (I was a victim of that assuming 234 planned a 6v0 strategy...)

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I think I know the match you're talking about; it was the one where 217 scored an autonomous goal from across the field and nearly scored 2 other goals, right? I didn't notice that the opposing alliance walked away in protest.

During the match, I also thought that the coopertition system was stupid. However, after further reflection, I'm not so sure. I certainly don't think it violates GP, since it encourages teams to strategize with their opponents to gain the maximum number of seeding points. I don't have a strong opinion on whether the scoring system is good or bad in other respects.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

We'd love to have you and the rest of the ThunderChickens back next year! It's always nice to have teams outside the normal area visit and test their mantle against the locals. After 6 years, the regional is a very tight-knit group of teams who all love to see their peers in FIRST succeed and do progressively better every match, day and season.

As a Rochester resident in the past four years, I HIGHLY disagree. If the snow wants to stop, by all means let it! hahaha.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

The whole point of Gracious Professionalism is that it doesn't matter who wins, its how you play the game that is important. What FIRST currently is teaching my students is that it is better not to play the game at all then it is to compete against the best of the best of teams. Not the message that I think any of us want to be sending.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

It really disappoints me that the first year we've ever had a robot that truly has done well -- the first time we've ever even made the top eight -- is tainted by such bad feelings from a variety of teams.

None of this would be true if people just played each game to win, as I am *positive* the GDC intended. I hope they clarify this in the next update.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Gracious Professionalism as (loosely) defined by Dr. Woodie flowers: If you're about to do something that would not make your grandmother proud, don't do it.

Being GP isn’t about loving everyone and having rainbows and butterflies everywhere, It’s about presenting yourself in the most professional manner possible. It’s about not regretting the way you interact with another individual or team.

If I were in a professional setting and had the opportunity to better my company by working for an opponent instead of against them, which option do you think my boss would prefer? Say that by working with Company X instead of against them, Company X & Y’s stock would go up 10 %, instead of just 1-2% for Company Y and 6-7% for Company X when competing? Isn’t it in both teams best interest to work together 2v0 instead of 1v1? I know which situation my grandmother would be more proud of.

Trust me, I don’t like this broken ranking system. But, if FIRST doesn’t fix it, don’t yell at people for using it to their advantage. If winning a match doesn’t help my rank but losing by 11-0 does; as a student why should I care if I lose? If, as a student, I fully understand the rules of the game and tournament that is.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

?? - I dont understand this statement.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

From what I got from talking to the team after the competition, Silent protest was not the reason. It was more or less a 3v0 strategy. Both 1559 and 291 were broken right out of autonomous mode and 291 was right in front of one of their own goals. 1511's intentions going into the match were to win, however after both of their teammates went down, they blocked their other goal so the opposing alliance couldn't raise their score past zero which would give their opponents less ranking points.

A very good strategy which moved their rank to 5th place.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I don't think any amount of bad feelings could discount the level at which Grapes of Wrath competed this past weekend. You were on the top of a lot of teams pick lists, not only for your amazing machine, but also for your incredible drive team and read of the entire field.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

It was an excellent idea.

1511 came up to us at the start of the day to to work on the 6v0 match previously talked about in this thread also.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I probably should have provided the link: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&highlight=234

Basically what I was getting at was how you shouldn't assume too much about a team or their decisions from just watching what a robot does. Like in that example, I assumed that you guys agreed to a 6v0 strategy when you actually did not. Or in the example of 1511. It may seem that they were protesting the ranking system but they were actually using it to their advantage.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

That is EXACTLY what happened! I am glad you posted this before I had a chance to post something that I might regret.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

I really appreciate that, Jay. I know my team did extremely well, but I don't want *them* reading these threads and feeling that their hard-earned victory is tarnished.

Amen, Mike. I let it go at first, and wasn't going to when I got back to it...

And let's be clear that I don't think any of us had any intention whatsoever of kicking the other alliance while they were down and scoring for them just to boost our own QPs.

-------------

My biggest problem with the 6v0 strategy -- and the reason I think it runs counter to GP and to Coopertition -- is that it can be used by 'worse' alliances to *bring down* stronger alliances.

6v0 was used against us twice, and both times in games where we were very strongly favored to win. (One of these was the aforementioned Q70 with 217 -- you Chickens ROCK THE FREAKING KASBAH. (It had to be said.)). Because we won something-0, it actually cost us QPs and hurt our overall ranking. Only an incredibly hard-fought Q74 where we won 10-8 launched us over the very impressive 145 (and all the teams in-between) to the first seed.

If six teams wish to cooperate to play 6v0 to raise all boats, I don't have too much of a problem with that (though I would be lying if I said I had *no* problem with it). But when 6v0 is used specifically to bring down the stronger alliance, that is, to my mind, playing dirty, and highly counter to the spirit of GP and the spirit of Coopertition.

It is clever, certainly -- though I know of at least six teams (ourselves included) who had thought of and rejected it very early in the build season, so it can't really be *that* clever -- and it is neither gracious nor professional nor coopertitiony to hurt another team's rankings by not playing to win your own games.

It is my opinion that all FIRST teams should reject the 6v0 'strategy' completely as a violation of Gracious Professionalism. "We can't beat you, so we're going to make sure you get as few points as possible" is a very twisted vision of what Coopertition is supposed to be.

Re: 2010 Finger Lakes Regional
 

Yes, thank you Josh for posting that.

I am 1511's driver and I can tell you that we had every intention going into that match to have a good, old-fashioned head to head brawl of good teams. In fact, I was actually really excited to just play the game, rather than the system.

As Josh pointed out, our coach Shauna realized that 1559 and 291 were dead on the field and made a great, on the spot change of strategy that helped us stay in the top 8. Not bad for her first event as coach, eh? :)

Although I did not want to play the system in that case, I have to say that when we participated in the 6 v 0 match, it was the most fun I had all through qualifications. 6 teams working together, having fun, and exercising the strengths of their robots. Maybe not what FIRST had in mind with the coopertition bonus, but definitely a positive result of it.

I do hope however that this does not become a strategy that teams use for all of their matches, but I definitely wouldn't mind seeing it a few time per regional. Also, props to 299 and 250 for being the driving forces behind the strategy.

I would also like to compliment 1507 for their performance at FLR. They were one of the few teams that were ready to go and score goals, hang, and just play the game, even on practice day. Its a shame that with the current system, they didn't end up higher up in eliminations. They have a great robot, a great team, and were an inspiration for me to go out and try my hardest to perform well.

And last but not least, I would like to thank and congratulate our alliance partners 578 and 3157. 578- I was cool to ally with you not only on the field, but also on the front page of the D & C on Saturday! 3157- You guys did amazing in your rookie season. I can't wait to see what you'll accomplish in the years to come.

Overall, another great FLR, and sadly my last as a student. I must say that 1511 has been an amazing team to be a part of, and I'll never forget all of the amazing people and teams that I have met over the years.