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-   -   A Request for transparency from FIRST (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78516)

pfreivald 13-01-2011 22:10
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Really? I mean, really REALLY really?

Nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- who actually watched the kickoff Telecast would come to the conclusion that FTC wouldn't be a part of FRC this year. Nobody.

And nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- who actually looked at the FIRST Choice options this year would come to the conclusion that FTC wouldn't be part of FRC this year. Nobody.

This whole thing is silly. Before kickoff, I already knew that the FTC kit would be part of the competition this year. It is the ONLY part available in group 1 of FIRST Choice... And that it is available at all was a GIANT CLUE.

This whole angst-bunny act is hilarious. Hop along, little friends -- I'm busy finalizing the designs of my robot.

----------------

Edit:

Alex, I love you, man, but if OMG WE NEED TO BUY STUFF is killing you, you're in the wrong competition.

Nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- has had a harder financial time than Naples at getting a team up and running and sustained. Without spending thousands of dollars of my own money (and boy am I rich with this teacher's salary, I can tell you) and an anonymous donation from another FRC mentor from a different team (to whom we owe an eternal debt), 1551 wouldn't be around today. It took that much to finally attract the awesome attentions of Bausch & Lomb, and we likely wouldn't exist without their patronage.

FIRST takes money. A lot of it. If you don't have it, you probably can't compete. That's why business plans, fundraising, and relationships with local businesses are paramount to the success of teams.

If $500 will make or break you either way -- not that $500 is needed to deal with the MINIBOT regardless -- then you need to direct your attentions toward something you *can* deal with.

...that said, if you need financial help, please let me know. We can probably do something. :D

synth3tk 13-01-2011 22:17
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 999560)
Really? I mean, really REALLY really?

Nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- who actually watched the kickoff Telecast would come to the conclusion that FTC wouldn't be a part of FRC this year. Nobody.

And nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- who actually looked at the FIRST Choice options this year would come to the conclusion that FTC wouldn't be part of FRC this year. Nobody.

This whole thing is silly. Before kickoff, I already knew that the FTC kit would be part of the competition this year. It is the ONLY part available in group 1 of FIRST Choice... And that it is available at all was a GIANT CLUE.

This whole angst-bunny act is hilarious. Hop along, little friends -- I'm busy finalizing the designs of my robot.
It's almost as unbelievable as everyone assuming that trebuchets and cannons were the intent of the the minibot race. But I digress...

Andrew Schreiber 13-01-2011 23:00
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 999467)
Am I the only person who thinks that the issues with FTC parts and the mini-bot this year was yet another example of a lack of transparency hurting teams?

If FIRST had come out and said "Hey, this next game will basically require FTC parts - you should account for that in your budget" - teams like mine would not be in the predicament they are now.

I feel like the MiniBot situation was made much worse because FIRST was by no means transparent about it.
Not a transparency issue Chris, just a decision that a lot of people aren't happy with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 999480)
Am I the only person that really thinks people should really, really READ and UNDERSTAND the manual and the options they have in front of them rather than endlessly whining about a non-issue?

The FTC parts that teams can use on their mini-bot are FREE. You have effectively already paid for them as part of your registration and they are virtually included as part of the KOP. All you have to do is get on FIRST Choice and have it sent to you.

If you are "budgeting" for large purchases of hundreds of dollars worth of Tetrix parts, then that is your fault for not taking advantage of the resources that have already been given to you. That is not FIRST's fault - it is yours.

-dave



.
I love the mini-bot idea. Love it because it gives us an excuse to get our old friends from FLL who moved to FTC this year involved again. What I don't like is that it is creating a perception of FIRST trying to force teams into FTC.

So, allow me, if I may be so bold, to venture a guess at the logic. I understand we had to have limits on the parts and I understand the logical choice was either add two more motors to the KOP -OR- make motors specific to this. Since we already have 13 motors in the KoP and by allowing any motors on the mini-bot would drastically change it (in an interesting way imho) we had to use specific motors. It is only logical to say, "hey who do we know who can donate these parts, oh the guys who we already work with..." Oh hey, added benefit, it promotes awareness of a different segment of the FIRST brand. The only question this leaves for me, why can't I build my mini-bot out of lego bricks?

pfreivald 13-01-2011 23:17
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 999602)
So, allow me, if I may be so bold, to venture a guess at the logic. I understand we had to have limits on the parts and I understand the logical choice was either add two more motors to the KOP -OR- make motors specific to this. Since we already have 13 motors in the KoP and by allowing any motors on the mini-bot would drastically change it (in an interesting way imho) we had to use specific motors. It is only logical to say, "hey who do we know who can donate these parts, oh the guys who we already work with..." Oh hey, added benefit, it promotes awareness of a different segment of the FIRST brand. The only question this leaves for me, why can't I build my mini-bot out of lego bricks?
A few thoughts:

Without being in on their brainstorming sessions, it is impossible for we mere plebians to know the reasoning behind every GDC decision... ....and it is unreasonable to expect them to explain all of them. (Or perhaps even some of them.)

I always assume, when I cannot deduce the reasoning behind a rule, that "it makes it harder" is the correct answer.

I am as cynical as can be. Truly, I always assume the worst when it comes to human motive. That said, geniuses such as Dean Kamen, Woodie Flowers, and Dave Lavery could make so much more money (and win so much more prestige) by doing almost anything else. They could also stroke their own egos in much easier ways... Thus, the "this is just a ploy to prop up FTC" arguments ring hollow to me.

OF COURSE they want FRC teams to get involved with FTC. I, personally, would rather see FTC as a "middle school" program and shunt FLL strictly to the elementary grades -- which will never happen as long as VEX is cheaper, mind.

But that's neither here nor there.

JaneYoung 13-01-2011 23:29
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Regarding recent frustrations, it doesn't make any sense to request transparency when we are wearing blinders. Doesn't work that way.

Jane

RoboMom 14-01-2011 10:40
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Each team in FIRST programs runs like their own little company with whatever plan is developed by them and given the cards they are dealt. However I would highly caution Against using the plan where the teachers and mentors inject large sums of their personal funds to prop up a team. The dynamics created by this often leaves a legacy and situation that is just not healthy. My experience with witnessing this scenario a few times over the past 10 years in FIRST leaves me with strong opinions on this.
Best wishes to all you hardworking teams this year!

DonRotolo 14-01-2011 23:40
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Hi folks.

OK, so you're unhappy that the GDC did not tell you -prior to kickoff - that you need money to buy parts you'll need to build a competitive robot.

You're kidding me, right?


Surely those complaining are from teams that use only what comes in the KoP and does not spend any other money during the year. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: FRC Costs Money. Spend it on this or that, but eventually, you need to spend it.

By the way: All you MUST buy graciously accept for free are 2 motors and one battery*. And that is only if you decide to build your own minibot.** So quit whining and labeling this a transparency issue, when it isn't.

*(I advise some spares, though).
**(In theory, as few as four per regional will suffice. Can you say "collaboration"?)

Molten 15-01-2011 00:48
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 999621)
Without being in on their brainstorming sessions, it is impossible for we mere plebians to know the reasoning behind every GDC decision... ....and it is unreasonable to expect them to explain all of them. (Or perhaps even some of them.)
I think it'd be eye-opening if the GDC were to video tape some of their sessions and release the videos either post kickoff or even post season if they prefer. Either way, just seeing what kind of set-up they use when figuring everything out would speak volumes of the rules they create and would allow people to understand them more without taking alot more of their time to explain themselves. I agree explaining themselves on everything is unreasonable, but perhaps just letting us watch(post kickoff obviously) would be perfectly acceptable and wouldn't require anyone to do much more work then to set up a camera and upload the video.

DonRotolo 15-01-2011 01:11
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Actually Jason, just watching them 'in action' would be interesting. I mean, they could videotape their rules discussions, and pick one or two interesting ones to show us so we can understand the 'flavor'. Surely some discussions are "ugly", but we don't need to see those. Just good real examples would be fascinating. Even if we didn't get to see them until after CMP (if fairness is an issue).

dlavery 15-01-2011 13:01
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Cormier (Post 999551)
What was the reasoning behind not including that FTC kit in the KOP to begin with?

How about the motors and battery and such?

Teams that want to build multiple mini bots will HAVE to purchase these parts.

Are you telling me that one battery will last an entire build season and competition season?

How many FRC teams have one battery and one charger?

How many teams use exactly what's in the KOP and only that?

THERE ARE MANY OTHER PIECES THAT YOU BASICALLY NEED TO PURCHASE TO HAVE A VERY SUCCESSFUL MINI BOT. That is the point.

The FIRST choice kit is not enough. It's great that it is free. It's great that we get 30% off from another site.

Think about all the down time from ordering the parts from yet another site, the shipping costs, etc.
Really? REALLY? REALLY??? You are actually going to go in that direction? Have you actually participated on an FRC Team EVER in your life (yes, that is a rhetorical question, I know the answer to it)? You are actually going to sit there and whine about the fact that you don't get EVERYTHING in the Kit Of Parts that you might need to build your robot?

Did you even bother to look at the list of items included in the FIRST Choice Tetrix kit? Obviously, the answer to that is "no." Otherwise, you would know that the motors and battery are included. You get them FOR FREE. But I understand that it is much easier to just jump on the negativity bandwagon and complain about stuff than it is to actually do a little research on your own and finding out if there is any basis in fact for the complaints.

So then you whine that you don't get enough of them to build MULTIPLE mini-bots? Getting enough parts in the Tetrix kit to build a basic minibot is not sufficient? Do you expect that the Kit Of Parts should also contain sufficient parts to make multiple full FRC robots? Exactly how greedy are you?

Then there is the complaint that the teams won't use exactly what's in the KOP and only that, and that somehow the Kit should include everything that you might, possibly, maybe, could some day need for every possible design? Are you serious? Do you actually expect that the Kit should be designed so that you get everything you might possibly need, and that you will never, ever need anything beyond the kit contents to construct your design? You have obviously confused FRC with Lego League.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonRotolo (Post 1000434)
By the way: All you MUST buy are 2 motors and one battery*. And that is only if you decide to build your own minibot.** So quit whining and labeling this a transparency issue, when it isn't.
No, you don't. All you MUST buy is... - wait for it - NOTHING. Once again, everyone needs to read the information that has been made available to them. EVERY team has the ability to order a Tetrix parts kit from FIRST Choice FOR FREE. It is effectively included in your Kit Of Parts. The Tetrix parts kit available through FIRST Choice includes motors and the battery.

Quote:
FIRST Choice Tetrix Kit Contents
2 - Motor Mount, W739089
1 - Motor Shaft Hub, W739079
2 - DC Motor, W739083
1 - Gear Hub Spacers, W739090
1 - Tetrix Resource Kit, W731900
1 - Battery Charger, W739059
1 - 12V NiMH Rechargable Battery, W739057
1 - Power Switch, W739129
-dave



.

buildmaster5000 15-01-2011 13:22
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 1000708)
Really? REALLY? REALLY??? You are actually going to go in that direction? Have you actually participated on an FRC Team EVER in your life (yes, that is a rhetorical question, I know the answer to it)? You are actually going to sit there and whine about the fact that you don't get EVERYTHING in the Kit Of Parts that you might need to build your robot?

Did you even bother to look at the list of items included in the FIRST Choice Tetrix kit? Obviously, the answer to that is "no." Otherwise, you would know that the motors and battery are included. You get them FOR FREE. But I understand that it is much easier to just jump on the negativity bandwagon and complain about stuff than it is to actually do a little research on your own and finding out if there is any basis in fact for the complaints.

So then you whine that you don't get enough of them to build MULTIPLE mini-bots? Getting enough parts in the Tetrix kit to build a basic minibot is not sufficient? Do you expect that the Kit Of Parts should also contain sufficient parts to make multiple full FRC robots? Exactly how greedy are you?

Then there is the complaint that the teams won't use exactly what's in the KOP and only that, and that somehow the Kit should include everything that you might, possibly, maybe, could some day need for every possible design? Are you serious? Do you actually expect that the Kit should be designed so that you get everything you might possibly need, and that you will never, ever need anything beyond the kit contents to construct your design? You have obviously confused FRC with Lego League.



No, you don't. All you MUST buy is... - wait for it - NOTHING. Once again, everyone needs to read the information that has been made available to them. EVERY team has the ability to order a Tetrix parts kit from FIRST Choice FOR FREE. It is effectively included in your Kit Of Parts. The Tetrix parts kit available through FIRST Choice includes motors and the battery.



-dave



.
I totally agree with everything you have said, Dave. If everything was in the KOP we could just create "Erector Set Robotics" which would not be half as fun as FRC. FIRST has created a way for teams to get much of what they need for a reduced price (free) and the fact that teams are not taking advantage of this is by no means FIRST's fault.

rsegrest 15-01-2011 13:23
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
This may have already been stated however I am not sure this discussion (which has evidently been going on for two years) is in the right place. It seems to me that the majority of the comments posted here are by mentors. This is perhaps a discussion that should take place out of the eyes of the students who are here because they love this program and it's difficulty. That being said...

Regarding the GDC and rules changing etc. This issupposed to be a 'real world' engineering experience. If you ask anyone who has worked in an engineering firm on a large project. They will tell you that until the project is completed everything is in a state of flux and you don't get all the information until the project is submitted to the firm (and even then it can change according to the needs of the customer). Generally speaking the customer doesn't have an engineer sit in on their initial planning meetings. They bring in the engineers after they have a solid idea of what they want. This is the way I see the GDC working.

Oh, and, when has there ever been a game in which there wasn't a need to redesign if you wanted to score the bonus points. If you feel the minibot is that important then refocus your design. Often times the most successful teams are focusing their attention on doing one thing extremely well.

TubaMorg 15-01-2011 13:28
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Wow it's very early in the build and people are already getting bent out of shape! Every year the robo-lawyers find something to get upset about, so why not mini-bots? In a couple of weeks we will start hearing about how some rule or another is patently unfair to such and such team. Then as the competitions approach out will come the competition scoring/alliance selection algorithm complaints. It's the same story every year and very predictable. In a very few rare cases, there is an actual flaw or oversight in the rules that are quickly dealt with (of course the corrections are criticised as well).

Our team takes a different approach:

1. We read and analyze the rules.
2. We build the best robot we can in the alloted time to complete the task we have chosen to accomplish within the framework of the game.
3. We show up at the Lonestar regional and compete as hard as we can until they say we can't any more.
4. Next year we do it again.

There are occasional logical flaws in the game that HAVE to be pointed out and in that case we should voice our opinions. MOST of the time, however, there are merely inconvient aspects of the game that upset people that seem to generate the most noise. We don't have time to waste on that stuff because we are cutting aluminum and bolting together our drive train!

Molten 15-01-2011 14:34
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 1000708)
Really? REALLY? REALLY??? You are actually going to go in that direction? Have you actually participated on an FRC Team EVER in your life (yes, that is a rhetorical question, I know the answer to it)? You are actually going to sit there and whine about the fact that you don't get EVERYTHING in the Kit Of Parts that you might need to build your robot?

Did you even bother to look at the list of items included in the FIRST Choice Tetrix kit? Obviously, the answer to that is "no." Otherwise, you would know that the motors and battery are included. You get them FOR FREE. But I understand that it is much easier to just jump on the negativity bandwagon and complain about stuff than it is to actually do a little research on your own and finding out if there is any basis in fact for the complaints.

So then you whine that you don't get enough of them to build MULTIPLE mini-bots? Getting enough parts in the Tetrix kit to build a basic minibot is not sufficient? Do you expect that the Kit Of Parts should also contain sufficient parts to make multiple full FRC robots? Exactly how greedy are you?

Then there is the complaint that the teams won't use exactly what's in the KOP and only that, and that somehow the Kit should include everything that you might, possibly, maybe, could some day need for every possible design? Are you serious? Do you actually expect that the Kit should be designed so that you get everything you might possibly need, and that you will never, ever need anything beyond the kit contents to construct your design? You have obviously confused FRC with Lego League.



No, you don't. All you MUST buy is... - wait for it - NOTHING. Once again, everyone needs to read the information that has been made available to them. EVERY team has the ability to order a Tetrix parts kit from FIRST Choice FOR FREE. It is effectively included in your Kit Of Parts. The Tetrix parts kit available through FIRST Choice includes motors and the battery.



-dave



.
I understand your rather close to the matter and that is why your so upset by all this. Please get rid of the condescending nature of your posts. Your posts are usually some of the best spoken and most interesting. You have many valid points, but I'd appreciate if you could make them in your usual demeanor. There is nothing to be gained by treating people like kids. If you want your message thought about and not just listened to, please acknowledge the community as adults even if you think they are acting childish.

Thanks,
Jason

PS: This is posted in public as a reminder to all that we should keep the forums civil.

Chris is me 15-01-2011 14:40
Re: A Request for transparency from FIRST
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molten (Post 1000797)
I understand your rather close to the matter and that is why your so upset by all this. Please get rid of the condescending nature of your posts. Your posts are usually some of the best spoken and most interesting. You have many valid points, but I'd appreciate if you could make them in your usual demeanor. There is nothing to be gained by treating people like kids. If you want your message thought about and not just listened to, please acknowledge the community as adults even if you think they are acting childish.
On the contrary, I think whatever slap in the face Dave gave me earlier in this thread is exactly what I needed to hear. I think the message behind either post is somewhat lost with sugar-coating.


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