[BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009...od-reason.html

As if anyone needed another reason to go to River Rage...

And the open registration opens soon.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Delta field at RiverRage. Hmmmmmm. As long as it doesn't involve any software changes (I know it won't) it sounds like it will be cool. Can't wait to see it in 34 hours.:yikes:

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

:O post pictures please!!!

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

I will/try!

I usually don't get the time to do take pictures at off season stuff (driving then pit crew) but new members are getting the chance this weekend (yah for them) so I have extra time on my hands!

I won't get too close to the action to get a pic.::ouch::

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Game elements taking up most of the shop space?!?!

Sounds like it will be the opposite this year of last year, Instead of an open field, maybe a 2007 style game with a big field element....

Only 72 more days.....

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Not surprised that shop space is filled up with elements regardless of size and number given need to store components for 14 fields...plus one can't assume much without knowing size of shop to begin with, right?

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

True..... but it's fun to speculate

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Visions of many, many empty Haagen-Dazs cups stacked all over the floor...
:yikes:

Trying to Help

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

So what is the Delta field Bill refers to in the blog post?

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Experimental, cost saving design based on excess regolith...

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

I've heard it's inflateable ;)

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

That idea might hold water...

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Actually, that was the rumor about 71's robot for the 2012 Air Game.

But seriously, lower cost field = :D

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

once again of course water.....but in all seriousness does anyone have any ideas to what type of things they are doing?

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Did someone say watergame ... ?

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

I guess we'll find out tomorrow. Not much has been said by FIRST or Bill's Blog.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

thats what i was thinking considering nothing has been very specific, im very excited to see this tomorrow!

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

I'm pretty sure that idea is all wet.


-dave




..

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

I would love to see a close up picture of this delta feild and hear how it works from someone at riverrage, thanks!

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

...I sooo feel like I'm once again on to something.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Delta = Change

The game will not be the same as last years, bet on it.
:rolleyes:

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Delta Dawn, what's that flower you've got on?
Could it be a faded rose from days gone by?

And did I hear you say, he's gonna meet you here today,
To take you to his mansion in the sky?

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Delta Field, you know, like "The Creater".

They are "Building the field elements"?

Sounds like Tetras/Racks to me.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

The 2010 game will be played using dirigible robots. (ref) (ref)

[Note: this will simplify the inspection station. No scale needed -- since robots must be lighter than air! No sizing box either -- robot will be size-checked using a hula hoop and a 5 foot wooden caliper.] :]

Field elements will include magnetic docking stations at which robots can load or unload game pieces.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

I don't think that that is exactly what is going to happen. Yes the game will change, but it seems that the purpose of the Delta field is to create a lower costing field.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

...along with visions of a 400 pound Dave, lying against the driver's station in an ice-cream induced stupor...

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

The trailers had to be built last year, too. There's an element that has to be built in virtually every game. It just means the odds of this game being robot sumo goes down a fair bit.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

did they mention at River Rage the lowered cost of building the field this way? I'm curious about the "delta" cost.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Estimates we have made for the cost of an "official" field range from $9-14K depending on whether you include 3/8" plexiglas, what year it was, and whether purchased from the official source or build-your-own.

The wooden field built by SCRRF to plans from Mark Koors cost approximately $800 for materials. That was for the 2008 season so it would probably be a little more now.

The Delta Field will probably be somewhere in between those two. I would further guess that the cost will be closer to the low end of that range. Say $1-2K. It would probably be affordable by a top flight team.

A note on field designs. Before 2004 the fields were made of individual pieces held together with KeyKlamps and bolts. These older fields were not up to restraining modern robots.

In 2004 a modularized version was created whch greatly simplified set-up, I would call this version "Alpha". Alpha had no bolts, the parts just slip together and are mostly self-locking.

In 2005 we switched to three teams/alliance so the field had to be re-designed. The result was the "Beta" version we have used since then. It has many improved features over Alpha. They are not the sort of things a team would notice, but they sure make the life of the guy putting the field together easier.

"Gamma" is a wood field, originally designed to be used if for some reason a truck was stranded and FIRST could not get a field to a regional. The wood field can be constructed with lumber from your nearest Home Depot or Lowes, in about a day with 6-8 good carpenters who would of course have the proper tools. SCRRF's field would be the Gamma version. It has held up much better than we originlly planned, though minor repairs are needed after almost every use.

Naturally the next stage in field evolution would be "Delta" a design that is supposedly optimized for minimum cost of construction and maximum availability of hardware. I, for one, am anxious to find out how it worked out this weekend and the details of its construction.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

That price is only if labor is free. The official fields cost about $50k. The shear number of custom fabricated components and welded joints makes the field very expensive (the billable rate for each of these is at least $55/hour in New England).

By the looks of the new Delta field, there is a significantly higher portion of COTS components, thus immediately benefiting from huge savings.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

We had three official 'basic' fields built last year for FiM - complete with inspection sizing boxes and ADA ramps. The cost was about what ChrisH estimated.
We're all in favor of lowering costs, but from what I gather in the pictures, the Delta field is not suitable for official events. It would have no where near the quality, durability, and ease of on-site ssembly of the official field. Throw in the number of splinters, cuts, scrapes, and misplaced hardware, and think it would be a mistake to try to use it for anything other than a permanent team or district practice filed.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

While I was not directly involved with the setup/breakdown/field operations, I would have to disagree with you. From the people I spoke with who setup the field, it took just about the same amount of time to put this field together as the old field did. As far as looks are concerned, the field looked normal. Granted, someone who had seen the old FIRST field a lot would notice a difference, but the difference is not a downgrade.

As this is the first time the field has been used in an actual robot competition, it has some "bugs". The field seemed to shed some pop rivets early on, but it had no discernible problems because of this. The field ramps do need some work, specifically making the gate easier to move and include an easy kick-up mechanism for bringing the gate up.

I think this is a good experiment for FIRST. Hopefully with this reduction in cost, FIRST will pass the savings on to the teams. I hope...

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

I would also disagree.

Being on the field, many times it did not "feel" as though we were on a new and much cheaper field. Several times behind the glass teams would ram straight into the driver station and the impact behaved the same as it did at other events. Aesthetically, the field is much different but it seemed to hold up the same way that any other 1 day event would.

What would you rather have, a little more time assembling, or a much higher cost at events because FIRST needs to pay more to get the fields?

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Field #1 for FiM went to four district events - Traverse City, Cass Tech, Wayne State, and Troy. In the off season it appeared at DTE, IGVC, MARC, Oakland Pontiac Airport, and Kettering. It took more abuse during unpacking, set-up, take-down, repacking and transport than it did during play. Except for some scratched lexan, it still looks like new. The only tool we ever had to use to set it up was a rubber mallet. All I have is the pictures of the Delta field to go on, but from what I see, I don't think it would have faired as well. We would not have enjoyed carrying all that cold steel from the parking lot at 10 below zero at Traverse City, or up to the second floor at DTE with all those brackets and fasteners sticking out. I wonder what it weighs. I wonder what will happen when those bolts get over or under torqued during assembly.

There are a number of ways to bring down the cost of the official field without sacrificing quality - especially when we're talking about building many at a time. The field is modular with 4, 6, even 14 identical sections. It would cut the welding time by half or better to make welding fixtures. Quantity discounts for the materials could save another 10-15%.

With the electronics for the field @ $30K +, the carpet @ $1k, 200 Orbit Balls @ $10 per or 8-10 Track Balls @ $90 per, and other game specific big ticket items like the FRP @ $1.2k, and so on... I don't see how scrimping on the field is going to do much good. For one regular season of district events the cost for the official field was less than $100 per team per event. If we can get five years use, then it'll cost less than $20.

More important is that when we set the field up for the first time at a high school or college, or for the first time the freshman class or the school administrators or local politicians gets to see it, we want it to be the best thing they've ever seen come to that school. For the price of the drive wheel encoders on the robots, I think the official field is a bargain.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

For that same reason, I have no problem using the Delta field. They don't know the difference, and if they're staring at the field and not at the robots and students, then that's a problem.

I won't speak for the entire committee, but I felt like setup (especially of the side rails) went extremely quickly. RiverRage is also known for its "demolition" style of gameplay, as teams don't need this years' robot again, so I feel we were pretty hard on it.

As has been stated, there are aspects to improve, but all in all I think it was a great effort put out by FIRST that should be implemented.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

I didn't know that and have never heard of that before. It does add insight into the strength of the field. It also says something about the robots and the volunteers participating, regarding toughness.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Jane,

I think what Jess means and as a driver at River Rage, we really don't care if we destroy our robots on the field. Teams drive out there realizing that this is the last time we will be using them in competition and will ram hard into the field and other robots. Last year, I collided several times with other teams (sometimes intentional and others not), put a large dent in the front frame, and even tipped the robot a couple of times.

So when they refer to "demolition style of play", if the robot comes back a mangled piece of something, most people don't care as long as they had a good showing their last time on the field for the season.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

This does bring up a very good point, when I see a number like $40k for the field my jaw hits the floor. The numbers ChrisH posted seem much more reasonable and the fact that these fields are used a half dozen times a year makes this seem like a lot less.

I think it would be interesting to see what stuff can be reused from year to year, obviously the field itself should be reusable for at least 2 or 3 years (personally, I think Jack's 5 year estimate would be doable) Electronics, I honestly don't know how long these should last but it seems to me that if they are taken care of they should last at least 3 years. This would leave the game specific items, carpet, FRP, elements etc.

Adding these up we get
Field:20k Over 3 years = 6.3k
Electronics: 30k Over 3 years = 10k
TOTAL: 50k Over 3 years = 16.3k

Consumables:2.2k
game pieces 1k-2k
TOTAL: 3.2k - 4.2k

Worst case we are talking 20.5k/field/year Assume each field gets 3 uses that number goes to 6.8k/field/event/year. We assume 40 teams per event and we end up with a cost of $170 per team per event for the field. The main thing I see missing from these calculations is transportation. Is Delta easier to transport?

So, assuming the Delta field can cut that number down lower, will FIRST be passing the savings on to us?



*I tried to be very conservative in my estimates of how long things will be kept, realistically fields could be used 4 times and the electronics should last a LOT longer than 3 years as should the field. Also, these numbers are based almost entirely on estimates given by Jack and Chris.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Brendan's got it exactly right. Up in New England we have over a half a dozen offseasons within driving distance, and RiverRage is the last. Everyone's still keeping it safe for the participants and volunteers, but a bent rail or two in October is not as big of a deal as it is in May.

Re: [BB]: What's going on, and the Delta field
 

Oh, I got that loud and clear. Build tough and come to play.
It would be great fun to see.