Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Yes, it's me again, writing about an area that can help or hinder communication.

We are about to get busy again in ChiefDelphi and I've been noticing some uses of punctuation that were either annoying or did not help with communicating the thought or the information.

Here are a couple of suggestions that I have. Please feel free to add your own suggestions that you think will help with written communication. Also, please keep in mind that everyone makes mistakes and that no one is perfect. That's an interesting part of being human.

One is the overuse of exclamation points (!!!) in a thread title and also in a post.

'HELP!!!!!!!!' does not tell the reader a thing in ChiefDelphi. It doesn't define or describe the topic. All of the exclamation points leads one to think that the OP (original poster) is in a hurry or a panic, making a loud demand but not being clear regarding the nature of the problem. This slows down the process of actually being able to help the situation.

There is rarely a need for more than one exclamation point. Anything over that creates unnecessary drama or attention.

Ellipses (...) Understand their purpose. (Look it up.)

I am guilty of using these too much. I like them, hoping they show that I'm still thinking while writing or that my thought can be continued and is somewhat open-ended. Overuse of these creates confusion. Is every sentence open-ended and in need of being continued in the thought waves that we generate? I don't think so. Periods (.) serve a purpose that helps to clarify our writing and limit the run-on sloppiness that can occur and create chaos.

It is always a good idea to draft a post in Word. If it is a long post, it is even more valuable to do that. Then copy/paste into the thread here in CD. That provides an opportunity to read and edit until your post reflects what you are thinking in a way that reflects well on you, the writer.

A couple of thoughts as we move towards our busy season in CD.

Jane

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Definitely some good stuff in here for all of us. I will admit that I am not the best at punctuation just ask my mom she will back me up.

But as for the overuse of exclamation points in a title, please don't do this. Many think that it will get readers attention because many times you are in need. Personally I avoid threads with titles like that and won't even read them due to the fact that the title has turned me away.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I have one more to add. The use of an extra period like 3 or 4 lines after the last word. I guess I could overlook it in posts that include actual game hints, though ;)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Using proper capitalization and spacing can help improve legibility.

In addition to helping with legibility proper punctuation will help get your point across. For example, if someone posts:
I will immediately stop reading. It shows a couple things about you, primarily that you don't care. It also reflects negatively on your school, your family, and yourself. Don't say anything you might regret 3 years from now when you are looking for a job. It will still be here, attached to your name and indexed by Google.

The above being true, I am not a grammar cop. I will never be a grammar cop. I may say something to you about repeated abuses of the English language but I assure you that it is just letting you know you should take a look at it. EDIT: If you ever think I am being a grammar cop call me on it.

One last comment, misspellings and punctuation mistakes are fine. Don't be afraid to post because you are worried about your spelling or grammar. If you are REALLY afraid either read it in your head (remember, a comma usually means pause) and if it feels awkward ask someone to help you.

Oh, and use the Preview and Edit post buttons!

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

This is valuable advice. CD users need to remember that they are not posting to a private forum, or texting to their friends, but rather posting in a public arena where clear communication is appreciated.

If you are one of the many people on CD who has difficulty with written English, either through a learning difference or speaking English as a second language, please don't take this thread the wrong way.

We aren't asking people to be perfect... we're asking people to try their best and offering a few hints to help your posts be better.

Jason

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I like when these threads come up. I admit that I started out with no capitalization and ending my posts with no punctuation, especially when it was only one sentence.

These threads assisted me to become more literate and helped in my classes. The people that have posted in this thread are intelligent and I know that when they talk, I need to listen.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Extra credit will go to anyone who correctly uses a semi-colon in a post.

You can also look like a genius by avoiding the most common spleling errors:

"Its" is possessive as in "the robot lost its transmission in the final match." "It's" is a contraction of "it is" as in "A better transmission -- it's what I need."

Their, they're and there are all different words.

Two, to and too are all different, too.

Homonyms don't have to be your enemies.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

This is why one should never be a grammar cop; You will either make a mistake involving spelling, punctuation, or grammar; be wrong; or just generally make a jerk out of yourself.

Rick, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this was a typo. But it was to funny to pass up. :P

EDIT: I also assume that said extra credit will not be given for correctly using a semicolon in a post about code. Is this correct?

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

It is one of the Unwritten Rules of the Internet (dating back to Usenet days long before the Web) that any post criticizing spellling will include something that is misplleed. Even if you slpell-check and are extra-careful, the Forces that Control the Universe will mung the speleling before the message is delivered. Guaranteed. It's a rule.

In its FAQs AFU had this: "spelling flames are lame." I'll stick to that.

I don't troll on Delphi, but in the old days I would have just responded "YHBT, HAND." Oh, when men were men and Craig Shergold stories filled tafkac...

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I don't even know what YHBT, HAND means. I dnt think iv tlkd liek thIs since the end of 6th grade.

I'm extremely guilty of incorrectly using ellipses. I generally use them because I'm either not confident in what I'm saying (and they can imply uncertainty), or because I don't know how to finish my thought and would like someone to finish it for me. Or I use them to show my train of thought.

Remember, punctuation matters. A colon* is the difference between a panda eating, shooting, and leaving, and the same panda eating shoots and leaves.


*side note: I was amazed when nobody in my English class knew what a colon was used for. In a class of about 20 high school students, I was the only one who didn't respond to our teacher's question with a blank stare. It was shocking.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Now, if that had been an anatomy class, you would have had LOTS of correct answers!

(ObExplanation: YHBT, HAND = You have been trolled, have a nice day.)

(MoreExplanation: In the above case, where I was NOT trolling, Andrew did what used to be known as "jumping into the boat." I was making a little joke and Andrew, who quite honestly doesn't know me nearly well enough to be sure that my misspelling was accidental, thought it was genuine. Hence, if I had been trolling to attract a clueless answer, and Andrew took the bait even if it were not actually proffered, I would have been expected to post, "and sometimes they just jump into the boat." We were all Really Funny in the Olden Tymes.)(See, misspelling "spelling" on purpose was a shibboleth. You utes have to go look that up, I don't have time to 'splain it right now.)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I'll chime in here also.

Along with all of the wise advice above, be concise.

Keep in mind, every post you make on this site may be read by over 1,000 people within one day. These people include adults and students, executives and siblings, people who can hire you and people who can turn you down for a possible job. Each one of these readers create an instant opinion about you. Careful posting will drive positive opinions.

Andy B.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

It's a reference to Judges 12. If you said "Shibboleth", you were fine. If you said "Sibboleth", due to not being able to pronounce "Shibboleth", you were six feet under.

It's like a password.

Now, back on topic: I generally won't call you on spelling and grammar errors. If you're constantly misspelling words, or it's a really funny misspelling, I might, though. I make enough mistakes myself that I get enough proofreading practice that way.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

But.. but... I love to use ellipses everywhere... like the National Weather Service does!

I'll try and cut back. Thanks! It's also a good idea to print out Andy's post, tape it to your computer screen, and read it every time you hit "submit".

(Firefox's spell checker conveniently doesn't seem to work for Quick Reply for me...)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

That is extremely good advice, so good that it has been ingrained into my head whenever I'm about to post :)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I don't know, I really like to use, these,
comma, things and avoid any other
punctuation or any other sort of
paragraphing or white space and any
other kind of well established constructs
to help improve the readability of large
blocks of text or to maybe separate the
logical thoughts into a sequence or
something I mean whats the fun if you
can read something easily and under
stand it without having to think bcz
kids 2day hav it 2 ez & they nevr hav 2
think of stuff and stuff.

Jane, can you re-post yours on January 10 please?

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I will second Don's request. Jane, please renew this topic after kickoff.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Sorry if this is somewhat unrelated, but this is also an annoyance to me:

Often, I see posts referring to specific people on teams who are probably not know to most people. This is confusing. Please specify who you are referring to in a method that is clear to all. For example, instead of saying: "John Smith suggested that we lighten the part," instead say: "Our Mentor, John Smith, suggested that we lighten the part."

Also, please take inner-team communication elsewhere (Private Messages, Team Forum, Instant Messaging, Email, etc.). This is a public forum, after all.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I don't know if that would be considered a bump. I don't have the whole bump thing figured out. Also, I'd have to get around the whole I-started-this-thread-so-you-need-to-read-it thing but I'll think about it. Probably the first 'HELP!!!!!!' thread will push me out of the discomfort zone.

Thank you for making the suggestion, Don and Richard.
Jane

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I can use a semicolon; with a little practice anyone can do it.

Using paragraphs also makes posts much easier to read.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Grammar and spelling are important; they should not be overlooked.

(Do I get extra credit? :rolleyes:)

Everything that was said here is true. When you use bad grammar, you look like you are uneducated and unintelligent. That should be enough motivation to double-check what you are typing before you actually post it.

Another thing that's really obnoxious is the overuse of the caps lock button. Simply stating an opinion is more than enough to get the point across. I have found that the more you talk, the less likely it is that people will listen to you.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I actually had to skip over this entire post. I just couldn't read it (my inner editor began flailing and twitching as soon as they realized that that entire thing was one sentence). Seeing things like this makes me wonder if the poster cares about their reputation at all - constantly doing something like that really makes you seem like an immature, irresponsible person.

Hmm...I was going to rant about how little people care about their appearance/reputation these days, and how little common sense is used, but I'll save that for another time, or another forum.

(and I'd like my extra credit too...I did this one without even realizing it. Semi-colons are my BFFs)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Emphasis added. The Earth must be irony all the way to the core.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

You mean like:

Out of curiosity, do they still do sentence diagramming in schools?

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I've never had it taught to me.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Ouch. I had that several times a year pretty much from grade school to senior year of high school. If anybody wants to learn, PM me.

Jane, if you're uncomfortable bumping the thread around early January, I might remember to do it. I was also considering publishing the contents of a document I've titled "The Seven Deadly Sins of Chief Delphi", which is on the topic of common flame-war starters and the avoidance thereof, before too terribly long.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I learned it in middle school. It's annoying and useless if you have a basic understanding of how a sentence is written. Which you have to in order to use them.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I used to like sentence diagramming.

You know, now someone could come up with an interdisciplinary exercise. Teach your computer to diagram sentences. Use a limited vocabulary, something closer to Green Eggs and Ham than Shakespeare. Word recognition, graphics and grammar all at the same time. Wouldn't that be fun?

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

To add to Jane and Andy posts above. Please remember that the only communication you have with all of the members here is through your writing. Those who read what you post may not meet you face to face, this year or next. Make a good impression by reading your post before submitting. If you are posting in a volatile thread, take some time to think out your response. I sometimes take a few hours or even a day so that I can simmer down on an emotional issue before I post.

A personal request for me is to complete your online profile. In that way, I will know your name when responding. I still find it hard to begin a post with "Dear Robogeekfromsomewherebeyondthegalaxy". Dear Jason or Amanda is so much nicer. On engineering replies, it is helpful for mentors to know that they are composing a response for a student, an alumni or a mentor.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Thank you, Eric.

"The Seven Deadly Sins of Chief Delphi" sounds like it would be an interesting read.

Kara, if you want to add your thoughts about appearance and reputation - add them. Something to keep in mind is that the membership in ChiefDelphi is comprised of all ages. When we occasionally read threads about the frustrations regarding the immature and uncaring attitudes and behaviors of team members - we can think of that on a larger scale and apply it to ChiefDelphi. When members first join, it may be a whole new world to them. They bring their experiences with them and apply those experiences to their posts here. The people who don't care about how they communicate, type, or conduct themselves, usually don't stick around. The people who begin to care or learn to care, usually improve over time. That's pretty cool.

It wasn't too long ago that I was thinking, "hm, what does this button do?" and pressed a smiley or a quote button or a submit button too soon. I was a whole lot like WALL•E and managed to create a mess a few times. It was then that I learned how generous and helpful everyone was. I would send a pm to them to ask for help and they would tell me what to do. It's an amazing feeling to have so much help readily available in such a friendly way. I still ask for help and folks still help me. The difference is that now many of them have become my friends :) and that's pretty cool.

Edit: Al, I was typing while you posted. It can be awkward not to know a person's first name but you always seem to handle that with ease and grace. I often think of you as a guide when responding to a no-name poster. I think, 'What would Al say?', and then I'm good to go.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

This is a direct quote from Mr. Dave Lavery that I have displayed in my classroom:

"In the professional world, spelling mistakes, grammatical shortcuts, leet-speek, and misused verbiage are not interpreted as signs of cute, efficient communications. They are indicators of illiteracy, inefficiency, unprofessional behavior, and sloppy work habits."

Also, it should be noted that Jane's impromptu haikus are exempt from the aforementioned rules.

Rick TYler is now my new favorite CD person.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Very good thread. I have made it a sticky so it can be seen at the top of the general forum.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

If I can chime in with my personal request as well, also complete your location in your profile with not just the city but the state and country if needed. (Yes, we are unfortunately US centric, so it is assumed you are in the US unless otherwise stated).

Similarly to NickE's post, don't assume everyone is familiar with your geographic area as well. If I talk about an event happening in Odessa, how many of you will know I probably mean Odessa, Delaware and not Odessa, Ukraine. Or Houston, DE and not Houston, TX, or Grove City, OH and not Grove City, PA, or....

(is that proper use of ellipses?)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

You would be surprised at the number of people who don't have a basic understanding of how a sentence is written. Obviously that skill was merely glossed over because I see people either not caring enough to do it right or just being ignorant of the fact that they can't write a coherent sentence. When a professor or a customer repeatedly demonstrates their lack of ability to communicate I quickly lose respect for them.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I only lose respect for my customers when they stopping buying things from me.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

And that's the truth.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I take great pride in all communication at work. It isn't merely demonstrating a lack of intelligence, not bothering to check your spelling demonstrates a lack of caring about your company. When you communicate with a supplier or a customer you represent your company, if you are going to appear as an ignorant fool then I am going to assume that your entire company is that way.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Ah, the mark of a great capitalist! :)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

In the engineering world, clear communication skills are prized and valued. I'm told this on a consistent basis by engineers that I know and respect. Consider the skills needed for writing college applications and then take that a step further and consider the value placed on those writing skills when submitting resumes for potential jobs. The person on the reading end of the submission is going to be receiving an impression of the applicant and may well sort that application into the thanks-but-no-thanks pile, based on how well the document was crafted and how the levels of experience were communicated. Please also bear in mind that the reader/potential boss has the opportunity to enjoy reading the information provided. If it is painful, the resume or application doesn't stand a chance of opening the door to opportunity.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

This is important enough to repeat: If somebody has no experience with a group, or if they have some that is good, all it takes is one person to mess up in some way to make the entire group look bad.

I've seen these cases here: One person (supposedly) affiliated with team X says something that is, shall we say, less than tactful/less than true, making team X look like that person until another member of team X says "We don't think this way" and calls them out. It's not a pretty picture.

If I'm representing an institution, I make sure that I behave in a manner that represents the institution's views and character. It's just the best policy.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

The singular use of they is a somewhat reasonable way of expressing concepts that would otherwise be clumsy. English lacks a gender-indeterminate or -neutral singular pronoun that can refer to a specific subject (one doesn't work when the subject is identified). Granted, in the above example, one could have substituted "it" if one* didn't mind forgoing the implied personification of the "inner editor"; otherwise, the canonical way to express that would have been to employ "he or she", or to imply a particular gender (both of which could potentially distort the intended meaning).

Since this thread concerns writing style, may I be permitted to take Jane to task for her aberrant capitalization?

*See how clumsy "one" can be, despite the sentence being conditional?

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

No, but thanks for asking. :rolleyes:

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Sure you can, Tristan.

Considering my penchant for editing, it may be a good thing that I can't edit titles or I really would confuse readers in CD. I did proof but managed to overlook the mistake. Thanks for catching it.

Jane

P.S. Paul, you are so funny. Thank you. :)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Jane -

Thank you for creating this thread, and spotlighting a topic that can never receive too much attention. Clarity in communication is as important now, in the age of text messages, tweets, blogs, chats and Facebook posts, as it has ever been.

Engineers (and many, many others) still live in a world that is dominated by the written word. If you hope to be successful in that community, then you must be able to write clearly and effectively. Your audience will frequently span the entire spectrum of age groups, ethnic backgrounds, socio-economic strata, and academic disciplines. They will not all be conversant in the latest HaXoR translation of "7|-|i$ i$ n07 /-\ hin7." Such shortcuts - along with poor grammar, bad punctuation, and spelling errors - are to be avoided like the plague.

Remember, you are the one trying to communicate your idea to your audience. It is your responsibility to make your message as clear and understandable as possible. It is not their responsibility to translate your garble into something intelligible. If you try to make it so, your audience will simply walk away in frustration, and your ultimate goal - communicating your idea - will be lost.

And yes, you will definitely want to bump this thread as the build season starts.

-dave




..

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I see what you did there.

(Extra Side Note: Try not to get the point of Dave's post lost while looking for what this is not.)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

If only game hints followed the same rules...:rolleyes:

Yes, I admit to grammatical errors. I tend to take the stance that I will write as I speak. I make sure I don't do anything too horrendous, but my sentences do get quite long sometimes. I tend to avoid breaking these sentences into several, instead I add () and ... to attempt to create some coherency. If my posts are ever less then clear, please ask for refinement. I will almost always oblige.

I still stand by a post I made long ago:
Engineers talk with math first, and grammar second. It is a fact of life.

Grammar is very important in coming acrossed as clearly to your readers. However sometimes improper grammar sounds clearer then proper grammar. That is when I tend to go away from the strict rules.

Side note: I still to this day can never remember the difference between effect and affect. If someone cares to enlighten me, feel free to. However, I've looked it up many times already and still can't seem to remember it. I tend to just use "effect" whenever I want to say either out of habit.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I remember it with Affect is an action, effect is the end result.

Though effect can also be a verb. Just to confuse you.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Precisely.

This is exactly what I do. I try to write in a somewhat-professional manner, but I've found, by way of my journalism class, is that writing in a 100% professional manner makes whoever is trying to read your post/story/summary very bored, likely to skip over most of it, or just ignore it all together. My goal has been to not write anything that I wouldn't say in a normal conversation - it keeps things simple, interesting, and easy to read. I'm not going to make a speech about a humble vaudevillian veteran, cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate. I've been pretty good about it, and I feel like it makes me feel more mature.

(I also use (), ..., and emotes A LOT...it helps convey the sarcasm, hand gestures, and facial expressions that I would use if I were talking to someone face-to-face)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Please don't teach Don Rotolo how to do all of that. Seriously. ::safety::

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Hey! I thought you were my friend!

:p


Surely you recognize the sarcasm in my original post, Kara.

Re-try all that with the word "I" instead of "they" and see how that sounds.


I've learned to control myself when I spot errors, but every one I see grates on my soul. I write professionally, both for a living and for spending money (google "N2IRZ") and grammar, spelling and word usage are very important to me.

Oh, and I do love them commas!

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Psst - Al - While we are on the subject of writing (or speaking) well, I would like to take a moment to remind our readers that a single, male graduate is an alumnus, not an alumni. ;)

A female graduate is an alumna; and several of them together are almunae.

Whenever one is uncertain whether to use the plural or singluar forms of alum_, just test drive (in your head) substituting geese or goose into the sentence and let that tell you whether using the plural or singular form is correct.

Also, someone else brought up homonyms - Folks who have trouble properly citing something when they post messages on this site, need to notice that "cite" and "site" are not the same word.

Then you know that one must understand and master grammar(s) in order to write/communicate mathematical concepts successfully. :eek:

English and other similar languages are a bit messier than pure math; but grammar is not something that separates them from mathematics.

Hey Don - Try using "use" instead of "usage" - It's easier to type, means the same thing, and doesn't sound like jargon

Attributed to Churchill: "Broadly speaking, the short words are the best, and the old words best of all."

---------------------------
Now - After shooting my mouth off three times in quick succession here, I think I should avoid posting anything more for at least a month. The risk of slipping up and embarassing myself is far too high. :)

Blake

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Usage.

I highly recommend getting a paper copy of The Elements of Style, in one of its more modern editions. [The link above is William Strunk, Jr.'s 1918 original.]

One of my personal pet peeves is misuse of comprise. For a clear explanation of how it is used correctly, see p. 68 of this illustrated edition (Strunk / White / Kalman, 2008).

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I certainly did. However, the fact remains that I still see people, on CD (once in a blue moon) and in other places, who consistently type and format their posts and assignments like that.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

See there - I didn't even have to wait a month. :)

Where the term turns into jargon is in the passive, preposition-laden, techno-babble that cruses so many engineers. Rather than describing how something is used, so many authors (when they are authoring:ahh:) insist upon discussing what its usage might be. I suppose I have become allergic to "usage" and its less reputable associates.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Another posting pet peeve of mine: excessive use of blank lines





See what those five blank spaces added to this post? Neither do I. However, I still see an occasional post with lines like that. Particularly when one is trying to say several things in one section. It might just be better to put one line instead and perhaps fill it with underscores or something to seperate thoughts if needed.

__________________________________________________ _______________
PS: I may be the only person that hates excessive scrolling so this might not be a widespread issue. Just a personal opinion. Can I get a second take on the situation?

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

In my opinion, no blank lines between paragraphs that are on the same subject, one blank line between paragraphs if you are changing subjects.
Example:

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

One thought to consider is the way one chooses to point out the mistake or the area that he or she finds annoying. It has been suggested that this thread be 'bumped' as build season begins. There should be an appropriate and thoughtful way to do that rather than a rude or abrupt way.

Also, an appropriate way to make a correction suggestion to a poster is through a private message here in CD. That is my preferred method. That way, the mistake does not have to be brought to everyone's attention and the poster can decide whether or not to return to the post and edit out the mistake. I've had mixed responses when I do this but, by and large, the majority of the responses have been positive.

This can also be applied to a post that is confusing to me as a reader. I may contact the person and ask them to clarify what they are trying to say. I've found that sometimes the post is confusing and sometimes it is just my interpretation or understanding of the post.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I wish my English class could have a discussion this deep/smart/useful/active every now and then.

Jane, would you tag team with my teacher?:)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Sure, I would love to. I love English teachers - they rock!

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Four years of Latin down the drain when you don't use it everyday.
Thank You.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Half of GP is professionalism, and that should be expressed in your posts on the forum. This is something that I know I can improve on and I'm sure I'm not alone.

Thanks Jane!!!!!!!!!!1

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Maybe the selection for "Alumni" in the "Team Role" section of profiles on this website should be changed

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

LOL:) After you take care of that, please pull a few million license plate frames (advertising expensive university/college educations) off of US cars and replace them with more appropriate ones.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

A slightly more expensive solution for my family was to graduate three of us from the same university...

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Alumni would be the plural of alumnum, the neuter form. If I recall correctly this would be the form used for a mixed group. So most universities are OK. There are a few single sex schools around that should be more careful, especially if they have a Classics department.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

And I am pretty sure that the plural form of aluminum is "6-pack"

-dave



/

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

But think of the savings on license plate frames!
You're correct, BUT I pick my words carefully.

My Websters 8th Collegiate defines Use as "the act or practice of employing something" for example "I use words carefully"
Same book calls Usage "Firmly established and generally accepted practice or procedure". For example "word usage"

For all practical purposes, these two words have the same meaning - but when you get to splitting hairs, in my context Usage was the better use.

Oh, how I love to split hairs...:D

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Already ate some crow for this one; but a second helping of crow always helps the lesson stick. :) Maybe I'll cling to the "You are correct" part of your post. ;)

What seems completely wrong to me (except for Mark's family) is the use of a plural form.

If a person wants to use their car to advertise that they graduated from an institution, then they would want to announce that they are one graduate. Many people don't seem realize that there is no such thing as "an alumni".

Blake
PS: Aluminum... LOL

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Quote stolen from a tshirt...
"Bank of Dad, In business ever since I can remember."

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Classic!!! :D

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

For me, the biggest 'turn-off' in using "they" as a gender-neutral term is that "they" is plural. Example (emphasis mine):

If a person wants to use their car to advertise that they graduated from an institution, then they would want to announce that they are one graduate.


The change from singular to plural, then back to singular, is troubling to me as a literalist. From my experience, engineers are nothing if not literal.
I'd prefer "one" or "his or her" to "they;" even though "his or her" is a bit more cumbersome, it is more proper (if only in my eyes).

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

No, that was Diet Coke. THIS is Classic -->


:D

-dave



..

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I knew that was coming, when I wrote my post...:)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Point taken - However, on this one I do have allies as far back the 1300s according to this source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/they

I am reminded of the apocryphal "... up with which I will not put!" tale described here: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/langu...es/001715.html

Blake

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

This thread came in handy today!

A co-worker, in the cubicle across from me, announced randomly about midway through the morning, "I sure wish I could remember how to tell when to use affect or effect."

At which point I said,
:)

(He was quite impressed!)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I absolutely love this thread! Lack of proper grammar on the Internet is one of my biggest pet peeves.

As someone posted before me, I highly suggest investing in a copy of The Elements of Style. An incredibly useful little book, it contains information on some basic, but often confusing rules of grammar, as well as a list of misused words and expressions, such as "couldn't care less," further/farther, affect/effect, and tons of other useful tips. As my AP English Language and Composition teacher would always say, "The main point of Elements of Style can be summarized as four words: Make every word count!"

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

And those words can be summarized into "Make words count!" ;)

PS: I learned this point reading a web page design book. Designers were advised to "Remove unnecessary words." The author then reinforced this point by advising designers to "Remove words."

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I understand your point but I also like Alexa's 'four words' advice. Here's one example of why - the Chairman's Award. There is a word limit involved so teams have to figure out how to make the greatest impression with a finite number of words. Every word counts.

How one communicates when giving directions may be a little different that telling a story. How one gives instructions for solving a math problem may be a little different from describing a current event. Language and how it is used - matters.

I like Andy Baker's advice to be concise when posting in Chief Delphi. I also like to read posts that are well written and thoughtful. If that includes a couple of adjectives then that's ok by me.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I think you meant, "eschew surplusage."

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

What is this, 1984 now? :p

Another thread to be noted is Andrew Schreiber's.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rick TYler again." lol @ Rick's comment.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Are you suggesting that "surplusage" is not a real world? It is, although I confess it is not in common use, especially, as Steve Martin once said, by those who were educated by use of an inner tube and a banana.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

The more concise you are the fewer words you have to eat later, should that become necessary.

ChrisH

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Necessarly?

Is this a Dodgsonian contraction, akin to brillig and slithy?

Maybe it came out when Chris was thinking necessary and gnarly, at precisely the same time. :)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

That's exactly what I thought when I read it.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

As a clarification to the eschew surplusage I would like to submit that we include posts in as well as words. Frivolous posts are just a general pain and there is no longer any reason to run up post counts. If something adds no value (in your opinion) to a conversation consider sending it as a PM to the person or group. By no means am I saying don't post, just my usual request of think before you post. Too often I see posts that read like, "Yes, they are right." I always question whether those posts are needed.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I would point out the irony here, but it might create a useless post.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I think I worded that very badly... I am going to attempt to clarify this, I meant, something that is irritating is when a post is made seemingly to just say hi or otherwise not add anything to the discussion. Not that this thread is irritating or annoying, actually I think this thread is quite valuable.

I will be editing out portions of that post in an attempt to have it more effectively say what I meant. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I agree ;)

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I would like to expand upon what Andrew said to include CD media. Do not "grave dig" and post pictures from the past that do not have a reason to be posted. I don't care if you have a picture of people bowing down to me at the Florida Regional, that was eight months ago, there are few reasons to post a picture from that competition.
I am glad that your team created a new drive system/held a camp for little kids/helped out in the neighborhood, that is what makes FIRST teams so great. But please do not post 10 pictures on the portal page about it. If you want to share a multitude of pictures, than post one to CD media and attach the rest to a post in the discussion thread.

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I have never been able to understand why we [students] learn about general literature in English classes, yet we have yet to be taught basic grammar. It's disappointing, but I honestly learned more about English grammar in my Latin I (roman numeral) class than I had learned in my nine years of standard english up until that point (at least in terms of structural understanding). I've come to the conclusion that one doesn't truly understand one's own language until they have learned a foreign one.

Random tangent: I was talking with some friends of mine about foreign languages, and how it was wierd (and moderately annoying) that kids that moved to the district from another country would take a language class to learn the language of the country they had just left. My friend commented that it would be like us moving to France and taking English I. After a few seconds though I pointed out that we'd probably fail the class :)

Too true, I took a year of Latin last year and the most useful phrase that I can remember is "ubi est latrina?" Hopefully German sticks better. :rolleyes:

You'll have to introduce me sometime, I've never understood those little dohickies. My favorites are the parenthesis (you can make the most random points in them and technically not go off topic ^_^).

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

This is just a friendly reminder that proper capitalization and punctuation (not to mention spelling) can go a long way towards making your posts easier to read and towards getting a response that you like.

indieFan's List (was Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post...)
 

I have a number of pet peeves when it comes to grammar and mispelligns, as well as posts in general. Here they are, in no particular order.

1. No use of commas when needed. Ask yourself if the sentence would make sense if you moved the part after where a comma may belong to the front. If it does, then a comma is usually necessary. I was taught "FANBOYS" in my 9th grade English class. It stands for the following: For, An, Nor, But, Or, Yet, So. Each of those words typically requires a comma (,) before it. There are exceptions, of course, but that's what makes English so fun.
2. No paragraph breaks. Or, perhaps, too many blank lines between one paragraph and the next. (Too bad there is no way to indent effectively.)
3. Capitalization missing, overused, or entire post. (For those that use it when it's the entire post, I try to gently remind them that that's considered shouting on the 'net.)
4. Lack of apostrophes (') and quotes ("), as needed. Or, on the flip side, the use of them where they are not needed. If something is owned by someone, it needs an apostrophe, with rare exception. "It's" and "Its" are very different words. The first word is a contraction, the second is not. A contraction is two words that are merged together with missing letters replaced by an apostrophe. "Don't" is another example. Any time you remove letters from a word, an apostrophe is necessary. (i.e., internet becomes 'net)
5. "Me too" posts. If you agree with someone's post, that's great. You don't have to tell me unless you have more to add.
6. Posts from people that look like they are knowledgeable engineers when they may not be. I'll look at specific posts from people that I already trust.
7. Duplicate posts. If someone else has already posted on the subject, and you are not seeking clarification, there is no need to post it again.
8. Search for the answer before you post your question. If you don't know the appropriate key words, ask someone else (i.e., a mentor, a teacher, a librarian, etc.).
9. The use of "well" versus "good". I was mortified when I overheard someone at a major university say "The Chancellor did a well job of recruiting for next year." (I actually wanted to slap the person.)
10. For those of us that hate being politically correct, the accepted term for a single person in writing is to use "he". (i.e., Can you find out if he knows the answer?)
11. If you have multiple issues on separate topics, post individual threads. If you have multiple issues on the same topic, post in an individual thread.
12. If you have a follow-up question, you may choose to post a new thread. If you do so, please reference the original thread in the title and/or the text. I'd like to be able to find the original thread quickly. Please see the subject line for this post as an example.
13. If you do not choose to post a new thread for a follow-up question, please change the subject line. It will help me get an idea of whether I want to keep reading the thread. Please look at the subject line for this post for an example. (You may change the subject line by selecting the "advanced" button at the top of the text box when creating your post.)
14. If you have several issues that you are putting into a single post, consider using numbers for the following reasons: Easier reading of the post and easier referencing in responses to the post. Also hit the "Return" or "Enter" key before typing the next number. (Review this post for an example.)
15. Please read the entire post/thread before making any comments. You will often find that someone else has beat you to stating what you were thinking.
16. The incorrect use of ellipses (...). As stated previously, ellipses are used to denote that one is thinking of what to say.
17. Smilies do not have to be all over a single post. If they are in your signature, that is great. If they are in the body of the text, they are more than annoying. :rolleyes: This is not a chat room, it is a message board.
18. If you are going to use acronyms, please explain what they mean after the first use in parentheses (). For example: CDR (Change Design Review) can be used to determine if something can be manufactured.
19. Not giving credit where credit is due. If you copy ideas from someone else, give them credit. If you take information from a book or a magazine, even if you paraphrase it (put into your own words), you must cite your source. If you don't, this is called plagiarism and can get you into legal trouble.
20. When naming a book, magazine, or movie, the title shall be underlined or italicized. See below for an example.

Not all of the ideas in this post are mine. Some of the other ideas are ones I saw while reading each and every post, except the poem, on the previous 7 pages.

If you have questions about grammar and are still in school, in addition to using Strunk and White's The Elements of Style, see if you can borrow a book from the library or textbook room on the subject.

I hope you enjoyed this post.
indieFan

P.S. How much extra credit do I get for the proper use of a semi-colon (; ) rather than a colon (: )? (Extra spaces required to prevent smilies from showing up.

Re: indieFan's List (was Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post...)
 

While we are on the subject of peeves ;) I think that using the transitive verb "reference" is often less appropriate than the simple and direct phrase, "refer to".

According to Miriam Webster's online dictionary, an ellipsis can indicate a pause or an omission of words. See this post for an example. ;)

Blake

Re: indieFan's List (was Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post...)
 

True enough, but if you want to indent both sides (as if inserting a long quotation in a document that doesn't support [quote][/quote] tags), there's always this: [indent][/indent].

"Well", or "swell"? Hopefully it was the latter colloquialism.

You've hinted at why it's not actually universally accepted. Users of English haven't yet settled on appropriate pronouns for some situations—at present, the best bet is to use whatever format you think will convey your intention most clearly. If gender plays no important role in the discussion, it might be sufficiently clear to use "he". If gender could be relevant, you might want to avoid using the masculine pronoun to mean the neuter, and instead be specific. Sometimes, when there's little possibility of confusing the singular with the plural, it makes sense to use a singular "they". (This has been universally understood for 500 years, but is still occasionally condemned.)

There's another way—vBulletin supports numbering: [list=1][*]List item[/list]. (You can also pass A, a, I and i to the list tag, for other numbering styles.)

Only if your name is Strunk or White, and the year is 1910. Underlining in printed works to indicate a title is an artifact of the period when typewriters were used to produce some printed matter—roughly between the era of movable type and the era of word processing. (Most typewriters were not equipped with italic cartridges, so underlining was used instead, in the manner of some handwritten styles.) Conventionally, italics are used for this purpose whenever practical.

Similarly, two spaces after the period (full stop) is a typewriter convention, and is not useful in modern word processing software that adjusts spacing automatically. If a differently-sized space needs to be typographically encoded, the usual way to do it is with one of several special space characters. (Unfortunately, this forum seems to have support for those characters disabled.) In any event, the question of whether two spaces are an appropriate substitute for a wide space in this forum depends on personal preference and the font settings.

All you need is [noparse]:)[/noparse].

Re: indieFan's List (was Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post...)
 

Unfortunately, it was the word "well".

Re: He/She/They
I prefer not to be politically correct since I feel that it has been taken to extremes. I use "policeman", "fireman", "mailman", and "he" when I write. That's why I had the statement in there. *big grin*

I disagree about "they" being used as a singular, though. While it may have been understood for a long time, it doesn't make it correct grammar. Do you have an actual book or article supporting your argument? I think my book Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student supports my view. It's been over 10 years since I've read it. Then again, it's the third edition instead of the newer fourth edition.

Re: Underlining vs. Italicizing
Thanks for the reminder about italicizing. I edited my earlier post to include that.

Re: Two spaces after a period
This is what I was taught to do, and I will continue to do so. I guess I'm too set in my ways to stop.

indieFan

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

Ellipsis (plural ellipses; from the Greek: ἔλλειψις, élleipsis, "omission") is a mark or series of marks that usually indicate an intentional omission of a word or a phrase from the original text. An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a PAUSE IN SPEECH, an unfinished thought, or, at the end of a sentence, a trailing off into silence (aposiopesis) (apostrophe and elipsis mixed). The ellipsis calls for a slight pause in speech.



Just sayin'


just sayin'

Re: indieFan's List (was Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post...)
 

I hope this is a joke.

Re: indieFan's List (was Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post...)
 

She's told that story before. I don't think it is.

By the way, irony of ironies: "misspellings" is not spelled "mispelligns".

Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post And What Is Annoying or Confusing
 

I should have been more specific, I was referring to the reaction to the error. I guess that's what I get for posting in a thread about acceptable posts :rolleyes:

Re: indieFan's List (was Re: Use Of Punctuation In A Post...)
 

It is an ironclad Rule of the Internet that "misspell(ed)(ing)" is always mipselled. It's right up there with Godwin's Law, even if it currently has no name of its own.

(And did you notice that I correctly used "it's," "its," and "there?" Amazing, really.)