Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Hi There Everyone! I had a question.

Do you think putting your teams awards on the back of team shirts and sweaters against gracious perfesionalism or is it just being arrogant?

Thanks!

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I see no problem with it. You won the awards fair and square. I do not feel arrogant with my signature.
You might be thought desperate if you are reaching back a few years to fill the spot.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I agree with you, however signature and team's shirts/sweatshirts are different. Your just showing off here on Chief Delphi and not at the regional. However, I feel like you deserve the right to feel proud of your team's accomplishments!

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I certainly see no problem with it.

I just have to question the design though. At competition, shirts should generally be eye catchy and get their point across quickly. Generally a team shirt has sponsors on the back or something that can be picked up via a quick glance...I'm not sure if past awards are the best thing that should go back there.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

If it's a big award, by all means go for it. If it's a team-presented award, probably not the best idea. I've seen it done by some very professional teams, on top of their sponsor lists.

After winning the 2005 Championship, my team made hoodies the next year with our team logo on the front and "2005 FIRST World Champions" on the back.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Our team makes "IRI" shirts each year with a saying on the front, either relating to the season or just nifty, and on the back is a graphic including every award and competition we've won.

Teams have a right to be proud of winning awards, they wouldnt hand out trophies if they didnt mean anything.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Just out of curiosity,
Our team has won the Regional Chairman's Award, Regional Finalist Award, Regional Champions, Rookies All-Stars Award, Highest Seeded Rookies Award and the Rookies Inspiration Award; all in the past 2 years. Would it be against gracious professionalism to have these awards posted on our team's sweatshirts?

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

FIRST awards are something to be excited about, and many teams show off their awards on their shirts, even awards of years and years ago. It's self-promotion and a good feeling to know you have some hardware in your trophy case. Some teams can be inspired by an award, and some are inspired by teams who have long lists of awards.

The only time showing off awards on shirts/in robot pits/on websites and so on would be un-GP, is if you brag about it to the point where it becomes distracting.

Awards given to you by teams are generally not something you show off on a T-shirt, but all FIRST awards are fair game.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

No it is not against "GP." Gracious Professionalism is not a tool to measure the actions of others by. Feel free to do so if you are proud of your accomplishments.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

When it comes to style, usually if you have to ask the question, "Is it in good taste to do ________." then the answer is no.

Of course a team has earned their awards and has a right to be recognized for that success. There is nothing wrong, per se, with listing the awards whenever and where ever desired. It is definitely within GP to list awards and celebrate past successes... on a .sig on a shirt, in your pit area, etc.

But the fact that you felt the need to ask the question suggests that you might be just a little uncomfortable with the idea of splaying a long list of awards on your team shirts for... as you put it... risk of appearing arrogant.

Why take the risk?

Remember that it's not what is on the outside of the shirt that matters, it's what is on the inside. Awards don't make your team good... its what you did to earn those awards that make your team good. If you keep doing whatever you did to win the awards, then you'll find that listing the awards is really kind of redundant.

Jason

P.S. Those of you who have listed awards on your shirts, please note... I'm not saying it is wrong or arrogant. You can bet that in the highly unlikely event that we walk off Einstein this year in a barrage of confetti this year, that our team will be doing something to mark the accomplishment... I'm just saying that if you wouldn't feel 100% comfortable with a list of awards on your shirt, then don't put them there! There's lots of other good places to list awards.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

"Against gracious professionalism" is a very odd phrase to me. I don't think your question is one that can be answered and every time I see one of these discussions I wonder if it's really that hard for people to internalize what Woodie means/has meant. If you're spending your time wondering what/how other might view you/your team/its actions I think you're missing the point altogether.

I've ranted on about this before so I'll stay brief here. "GP" isn't a gauge, it's a target. It's more about culture and feel than anything else.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I would like to make a simple observation many seem to have overlooked. Those shirts are going to be worn by newcomers who didn't earn those awards. I see no problem with displaying your own accomplishments proudly. However, I would suggest making it so that it is worn by those who accomplished it. I would not feel comfortable wearing a shirt listing accomplishments I wasn't a part of.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Rather than seeing these as accomplishments of certain people, I prefer to view them as accomplishments of a team. Every member who was ever on said team contributed something to the team and deserves to celebrate the team's accomplishments.

A recent discussion on whether or not current team members deserve to be recognized for past team accomplishments, specifically the FIRST Hall of Fame, might be a good resource for more discussion on the topic.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

This is why I severely dislike the term gracious professionalism more and more because people have decided to use it as a measuring tool to judge others.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

GP is overused and maligned.

There is a very simple way to interpret the intent of Woodie when he invented it. Compete fiercely, help others compete against yourself, and do it with honor and ethics.

To learn by example just look at the egregious behaviour of a couple of things that happened just in the past few weeks in sports. Both of these were covered extensively by ESPN.

1) the Georgia / Florida eye-gouging incident. The level of acceptance on both teams and the coaches is stunning.
2) the New Mexico / BYU women's soccer incident. Seems to be resolved.

Those events were absolutely nauseating.

Avoiding that type of behaviour and encouraging teams to help others is the intent of GP.

Putting the stuff on the shirts isn't something I'd recommend but there is no great harm. It isn't really a GP issue but one of decorum.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Have we become so wrapped up in the words "gracious professionalism" that we've forgotten what they really mean?

Have we become so opposed to possibly offending anyone in the slightest way that we downplay our own hard fought accomplishments and achievements?

There's a stark difference between bragging and taking pride in your work. While "Ha ha! We're better than you! We won seventeen regionals and you didn't!" would clearly fall in the former, listing your achievements would definitely fall in the latter. Your grandmother certainly wouldn't be offended if you told her your team won your regional.

If people are getting offended at seeing other teams list their accomplishments, maybe they should spend less time whining and more time doing things to make their own team win.

People like to dedicate things. People like to list their accomplishments. People like to show everyone else when they were successful. People like recognition. People like taking pride in their work, their favorite sports team, their alma mater, and their home country. It's always been that way, and always will be.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

When I first read this thread I immediately jumped to the idea that the team might be wearing their shirts during meetings with potential sponsors. A team that can only afford one tshirt per student would then by necessity have these awards printed on the shirt to gather notice of these potential sponsors. At that point GP doesn't enter into the decision.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I am definitely not opposed to a team highlighting their accomplishments. My prior comments had to do with the intent of GP, not displaying earned accomplishments.

I was thinking about how awards mentions are displayed in football/basketball stadiums with the signage.

For $ 40 bucks you could do a very nice 20x30 sintra sign that would list the accomplishments and sit very nicely on an easel at public displays or corporate presentations, and in its spare time live on the wall at school.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Keep in mind that information can become dated very quickly.

The awards that have been garnered in the previous season become dated when the current season begins. Listing those awards on your team shirts is costly and will remain current for only so long. If that is not a problem with your team budget and short-term or long-term plans, then it is fine.

I love to see the Hall of Fame teams tell us that they are HoFs on their shirts. It's cool and is never outdated.

I think your question is valid. The bottom line is in how your team conducts itself and how you promote your achievements and your efforts as a team. I've seen some great team pits where teams have taken the time to lay out and organize their pit so that it is efficient, productive, and promotes the team in an effective and professional manner. People pay attention to that.

Good question, stargirl. Good luck to you and to your team in 2010!

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I don't think it is either, not arrogant and not ungracious (especially in good taste)... At IRI last summer, the HOT team was wearing tye dyes with "2009 National Champions" on them - but they were on the winning alliance at Einstien and they deserved to advertise that fact. That is a great marketing tool for award winners to use for drumming up support, I don't see it any differently than a football team advertising that they won a championship or rivalry!

My .02,

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Gracious Professionalism - To compete with others are truly care about the outcome. Yet all the while caring about the other. To be Gracious and Professional. To help them when you are needed.

In the end its like superheros really. They hada sense of GP about them. They were scared to show their accomplishments. They wore costumes. 1. Disguise themselves. 2. Show who they are. And that in its self shows what they have done. So my opinion would be that saying you have done something great is in no way wrong or against GP. For as it has been said. GP is not a gauge. Simply another way of saying "I have morals".

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

This really does not have as much to do with Gracious Professionalism.

I'll break it down for you. What messages do you send when you put your awards on a shirts?

1) If done humbly, you help build up your team morale. It helps motivate existing members and new/upcoming members will presume that you are a "successful" team. This is good.

2) You help your schoolmates realize that you have some success backing you as long as you don't brag about it. This is good for your school.

3) You help friends, family, acquaintances, and the like know that you have some success. This is also good as long as you don't brag about it.

4) I assume you will also list a few sponsors. Yes, this is also good. Most sponsors LOVE recognition. I would check with them first though. A couple of them did not want to be on any of our promotional material.

5) Ten years from now, when you happen to stumble across this shirt while you are building a shuttle for NASA, you will realize that this is where it all started.

I am not going to list more. You should see where I am going with this. Having at least one team shirt with many accomplishments listed is extremely valuable in my opinion.

In short, should you list your sponsors, names, awards and accomplishments on you shirt? HECK YES. Just don't brag about it verbally and always carry a humble attitude. It is almost guaranteed to work in your favor.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Let's avoid the "If its ok for football, its ok for me" logic. Though I believe the moral decision based on it is true. This logic seems to go against FIRST's changing the culture mentality.

Not trying to single Dan out, I've just seen this argument made on a few occasions and thought we can all use a reminder on occasion.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I dunno, it seems that FIRST has no problem with the sport concept. The direct connection to the relevance of sports is becoming stronger not weaker.

To add - we, ourselves, risk becoming negative and our passion distorted, if we don't remain somewhat open-minded and flexible in our thinking. Gracious Professionalism is as wonderful an attitude and applicable philosophy as it ever has been.

.02

Jane

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I apologize, this post is going to be rather general, in my opinion this decision does not involve GP, it does not involve the community, it involves you and being proud of your accomplishments. I would caution against putting awards on shirts, it means that shirts cannot be reused from year to year.

Art is right, if you are so worried about offending someone that you are no longer proud of your accomplishments... well that is just pathetic. As Art said, if someone is offended by your listing of accomplishments then they need to stop thinking of what they didn't do and instead start thinking of what they need to do to win.

I'm going to end with another quote, Ray Bradbury. In Fahrenheit 451 he talks about how censorship destroyed our culture. The truly terrifying part is that this was no state mandated censorship, the people did it. That is what you are doing if you let the fear that you might possibly be "Non-GP".
I am not saying that you should start cursing and insulting people, instead I am saying do not be afraid to disagree in a professional and respectful manner. You have an opinion, it is just as important as anyone else's, don't ever let anyone take that away from you.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Andrew, your caution also applies to sponsors. Many teams get new shirts every year to reflect new sponsors; when this change happens, the award list can change.

Or you can put a year and event tag on the award; this allows for reuse each year.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

"My other T-shirt lists all our awards... but it's too big to wear." :D

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I deffinately agree with you. It's something you feel proud of and if that's how and where you want to display that pride, then go for it! I know we don't have room on our shirts for much because we have a bunch of sponsors. I deffinately think that it's a great thing to be proud of your accomplishments and I say go for it.

Cass

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Past performance is not indicative of future results.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Agreed, you never know what could happen.

Cass

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I couldn't help but contest that statement in official CD-style. While this statement is sometimes true, there are many examples (1114, 111, 67, and the list goes on) of teams who continue to succeed year after year. They did something that was right and I think ALL teams have a lesson to learn from this. These teams have identified what they do "right" year after year in order to succeed. Of course, FIRST is very varied and not all teams are able to get all the "success factors" right every year. But, they can learn from things they did right.

Lessons can include:
"While driving the robot around at the end of build season, we figured that we can accomplish *these* tasks best by doing *so and so*. " Playing your robots strengths can work for you year after year.

"Having a solid storyboard and plan was a major factor in us winning the animation award". This factor can help increase your chance for success year after year.

"Booking hotel rooms early in the season for X regional helped us save X amount of dollars".

While I think your statement is sometimes correct, I would argue that past performance and results can sometimes be an indication of future results. It depends on whether you learn from it and continue to do what you need to do in order to succeed.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Yes, but to imply that's a reason not to be proud of past accomplishments (or, more frankly, not use them to your advantage where you can, such as showing them off to sponsors) is even more ridiculous.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

as I browse the thread, this appears in the little quoter section at the top.

"Gracious Professionalism at its finest - Competing like CRAZY on the field, then working together like professionals off the field to make these events the best they can be for everyone involved. - Stu Bloom"

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

There are differences between pride and hubris, I think, and feel personally that lauding your achievements to people that have not demonstrated any interest in them is distinctly the latter.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

Can you think of a situation where someone reading your shirt would think "They are proud of winning award X? What a bunch of jerks!" The only ones I can think of are along the lines of "Why is my sponsor logo smaller than / obscured by award X?"


When I read the title, I was about to knee jerk reply about "against GP", but saw that people more eloquent than I already handled it. Thanks!

I'm going to have to jump on this bandwagon, hopefully it isn't full yet.

I really hate to nitpick, but "indicative" is a poor choice for a word in that sentence. Perhaps you intended "is not a guarantee of" instead? "Indicative" is loose, like suggestion: Today's weather is a pretty good indicator for tomorrow's weather, but it is by no means perfect. To Dancin, although we can not predict the future with certainty, throwing away data is counterproductive. Engineers make best-faith decisions everyday in the face of these uncertainties.

The reason I push this point is that past performance truly is a valuable indicator of future results, and more importantly, that knowledge of past performance can effect* future results. It can help with sponsors, help freshman feel the "We Can Do It" vibe, etc.






* go-go-gadget nounform-effect!

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I'll make a few comments on the several subjects that have come up here. Please forgive my long reply.

FIRST (and other competitive robotics programs) are built on the sport model. We compete. We award the best competitors. We celebrate human accomplishments in something that in and of itself produces nothing. The preparation for competition and the actual tournament provides competitors (and spectators to some extent) a way to improve themselves. This personal growth is the product of all sport.

The primary difference between sport as it is often practiced and FIRST is that sometimes sport takes war as it's model ("crush your opponent!") while most engineering competitions have embraced Dr. Flower's Gracious Professionalism as their model for competition.

We need to put both of these ideals together. FRC is competitive robotics, not a robotics exhibition. We celebrate our accomplishments and compete for that recognition.

I'm all in favor of celebrating our accomplishments! List those awards.

A list of awards and the year you won them gives new team members a sense of pride - they are part of the team that has achieved to that level. (I remember when I was rowing in college, there was a great photo on the boathouse wall of the Henley '54 & '55 crews from the one time the school had traveled to England and won the most prestigious collegiate rowing event in the world. Every time I walked passed it, I felt motivated by the accomplishments of that crew - even though it happened over 10 years before I was born.)

I take pride in the accomplishments of my team, and of all the awards that we have received, I count the Johnson & Johnson Gracious Professionalism award the most important. That we have received this award 7 times in the past 7 years tells everyone what kind of team we are. It is also hopefully an indication of what kind of team we will continue to be.

-Joseph Vanderway
Coach, Robodox

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I've read many people talk about offending other teams with their awards. Many find this preposterous because the word chosen was "offend". I definitely agree that nobody will be offended by a list of awards. I would rather inject a different word, "intimidated". I've seen many freshmen* go to their first regional and they get mighty intimidated. Sure, the size of the competition certainly has an effect. But something else that might play a role is realizing the success of their opponents. Thoughts such as, "Look at them, they won the championships last year...we don't have a chance" is a common thought when presented with such displays of pride. Perhaps this isn't a real issue, but I've reassured many students that we all have the same chance as the big teams. I'm not saying that pride is a bad thing. A teacher of mine once told me, "Even the strongest armor needs polished sometimes". Just try to not polish it to the point that its blinding.

*I choose to use this term for new member of the team...not necessarily to the school.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

The mark of a good captain is one in which his/her crew genuinely believes that no matter how hairy a storm or battle gets, they will emerge victorious. Doubt and intimidation about success often proves a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Confidence cannot come from rhetoric alone. It must come at least partially from first-hand experience. Team building exercises, Vex competitions, and attending FRC off-season competitions are all great ways to boost confidence of new members.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I wonder if we have overwhelmed our OP with all of our posts and opinions. It is her very first post here in CD and it has managed to start quite a discussion. Hopefully, some of the posts have answered her question and have provided some insight into all of the areas that folks have introduced into the thread. :yikes:

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

I think Molten has a good point here:
But in many robotics competitions like FIRST, this can be turned into "Look at them, they won the championships last year... and we might get to be their alliance partners!"

If those champions are a team that has embraced Gracious Professionalism, they will welcome, assist, support and cheer for that new team and those new team members.

-Mr. Van
Coach, Robodox

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

How about "Look at them, they won the championships last year, I bet they'll help us with our busted lifter / code / wiring"?

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

If possible, it's what all good teams should do.

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

If she managed to start such a provocative yet civil thread on her first post, she sounds like somebody who should post more often! We need more like her.

ChrisH

Re: Gracious Professionalism or NOT?
 

What about teams (most of them) that hang their championship/chairman's banners in their pits? I don't think that really targets any different of an audience then T-shirts, and it seems to be generally accepted...
If you're thinking about students wearing the T-shirts in general, say at school, I don't see a problem with that. If I hadn't been in FIRST, I still would have been interested in learning that a team associated with my school had won something