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-   -   [FTC]: Robot Capabilities (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78926)

Chris is me 18-11-2009 21:48
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
It helps because otherwise it'd be (effectively) 0 blue, 40 + 40 = 80 red.

FTC G-FORCE 18-11-2009 22:05
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
no unless you and your partner cant shoot them in the 5 point goll then it would be like that IF the other team get all 8 in the 5 point goll in ayto mode and if they get the yellow ball in also,but you do whatever i just think it would'nt be that smart to do it.

FTC G-FORCE 18-11-2009 22:14
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
o and every time you hit the spin bar you - 40 points so if you bump it 2 times you get -80 points

jamie_1930 18-11-2009 23:59
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 882149)
After quickly realizing I don't have a team, might as well add some thoughts to Rick's excellent analysis on what I see as stuff that seems particularly important. Disclaimer that I could be very wrong.



Though I don't know how you can build a sliding release point in FTC, I do know sliding release points (especially in Lunacy) resulted in much faster firing, to the point that notable teams this year that relied on wheel speed would abandon ranged firing altogether in favor of building a hood permanently tilted.



40 points, depending on the strategy, might not be the end of the world. I'm not saying it's anything you should bank on but it certainly will happen in at least a few matches with the specific intent of messing up autonomy. Considering auto points are worth double (basically), even if they pick up all the balls they miss or they don't fire if the goal gets messed up, you could potentially deny more points than would be scored in very extreme circumstances.



If I understand what I saw correctly a lot of this was trouble turning, which omni wheels will help with. Holonomic drives will excel at chasing the 5 point goal in particular. If I were building an FTC robot I would go 6 wheel for other reasons though.

I would not be surprised to see a swerve chassis of some sort this year.



This is what I've been trying to push on anyone who will listen. Almost every team I've talked to just wants to deploy the ramp then use intake to get them from there, and that's giving your opponent free points. Controlling the gates with a drop down hopper or just some "wings" or something is more important in my mind than human loading in Lunacy or Aim High. I wonder if you could get away with no floor intake at all if you really had to.



I honestly think the 10 point goal is the most important part of the game. Scoring in it is just as valuable as scoring in autonomous, but easier as you have drivers to control it. The goals are also wider so you can shoot 2 or 3 balls wide into the goal, unloading at ridiculous speeds. Just one corner worth of balls plus a doubler and your preload and you break 400 points. 40 point penalty doesn't look so bad now.
I wouldn't count on anyone trying to spin the bar in autonomous because by doing so they're saying that at least 8 balls will be scored in the high goal and I think that's very unlikely to happen.

Chris is me 19-11-2009 00:24
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC G-FORCE (Post 883262)
no unless you and your partner cant shoot them in the 5 point goll then it would be like that IF the other team get all 8 in the 5 point goll in ayto mode and if they get the yellow ball in also,but you do whatever i just think it would'nt be that smart to do it.
Yes, this strategy would only be used if both opponents scored 8 balls or more in autonomous and you couldn't. That's why you'll never see it.

You get points for balls in autonomous, then you get points again at the end of the game. No doubler ball needed. Essentially all balls scored in auto are worth double points.

FTC G-FORCE 19-11-2009 11:28
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
ok, great now do you know that its not a smart thing to do (most of the time)

JohnFogarty 01-12-2009 10:29
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
We reconfigured our loader 100% more efficiant!!, hahaaa i'm gonna post a vid. I'll give you a hint popcorn machine XD

JesseK 01-12-2009 10:43
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 883288)
Yes, this strategy would only be used if both opponents scored 8 balls or more in autonomous and you couldn't. That's why you'll never see it.

You get points for balls in autonomous, then you get points again at the end of the game. No doubler ball needed. Essentially all balls scored in auto are worth double points.
Balls scored in auton. are essentially worth 15 points if there's a yellow ball in there. Balls scored without auto are worth 10.

It's because the balls are counted at the end of auton -- N balls
Plus whatever was scored during teleop - M balls

thus the point values are
5*[N + (N+M)*2]

or 5*[2N + N + 2M] = 5*[3N + 2M] -- thus since N represents autonomous balls, they're worth 5*3, or 15 points each with the double ball, meaning it's still worth it to do auto and get the ball. This makes for some very interesting math when making strategies, where impulse decisions can definitely cost you some points.

Chris is me 01-12-2009 11:09
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 884945)
Balls scored in auton. are essentially worth 15 points if there's a yellow ball in there. Balls scored without auto are worth 10.

It's because the balls are counted at the end of auton -- N balls
Plus whatever was scored during teleop - M balls

thus the point values are
5*[N + (N+M)*2]

or 5*[2N + N + 2M] = 5*[3N + 2M] -- thus since N represents autonomous balls, they're worth 5*3, or 15 points each with the double ball, meaning it's still worth it to do auto and get the ball. This makes for some very interesting math when making strategies, where impulse decisions can definitely cost you some points.
This is an interesting way of looking at things. While my gut response is "well you could just double the 10 point goal to make every 10 point ball worth MORE than an autonomous scored, then doubled ball", you do have to consider how accurate and fast your 10 point puker has to be. It's easier to shoot one ball with defense than 25.

JesseK 01-12-2009 13:55
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 884951)
This is an interesting way of looking at things. While my gut response is "well you could just double the 10 point goal to make every 10 point ball worth MORE than an autonomous scored, then doubled ball", you do have to consider how accurate and fast your 10 point puker has to be. It's easier to shoot one ball with defense than 25.
Additionally, you have to look at the time scale. Since there are 30 seconds in autonomous, teams have ample opportunity to get plenty of balls in during auton (I bet the average team that tries at Nat'ls will get 23 balls per auton with several alliances getting 38+). The more the better, obviously, but there's only so much guarantee that a team will get to their second chute during autonomous.

In any case with a sufficient amount of balls in during autonomous, all an alliance has to do is block opponents' bonus ball chutes and/or outer goal shots during endgame. Ball for ball without bonus, auton balls are worth just as much as outer goal balls. Since the alliance who scored only autonomously would be ahead in quantity at the start of endgame, they can afford to use both alliance robots for effective defense in order to win. Perhaps you could let them score a little to up your QP, but that's somewhat difficult to do yet also guarantee a win. Personally I'd rather guarantee the win.

Chris is me 01-12-2009 14:38
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
This is all speaking theoretically since I don't have an FTC team this year, though if you could have a "blocker for the blocker" who scored in auto as a teammate perhaps it would work better. If you can score big chunks of points very quickly, letting up on the defense for 3 to 5 seconds could get a few hundred points. Smart defense could potentially spin you into shooting for your opponent's goal though. :/

I still want to see an all 10 point mega fast shooter, but it certainly looks more beatable now. I'd still build a robot primarily designed for it at this point.

Monty Python 01-12-2009 20:28
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
If you score all of your points in autonomous and then rely on blocking the bonus ball chutes, you lose. You lose because you give up your ability to get the bonus ball and allow your opponents uncontested shots at the outer goal means that a robot specifically designed for hoarding and firing at the off the field goals should still be able to outscore what you've done in autonomous (and to a lesser extent, the teleop).

FTC G-FORCE 01-12-2009 20:59
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
if you relly want to spin it with out geting -40, aim at the goll and shoot at it and it will spin :)

JohnFogarty 08-12-2009 19:51
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTC G-FORCE (Post 885111)
if you relly want to spin it with out geting -40, aim at the goll and shoot at it and it will spin :)
from what i saw you guys didnt do anthing in autonomous

FTC G-FORCE 09-12-2009 17:21
Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John_1102 (Post 886920)
from what i saw you guys didnt do anthing in autonomous
The reason we didn't score in auto mode is because are opponents can pull the ball shoot beside us, so we had tech brick do auto mode so there's no way our ball shoot will pulled ,what im saying is that we can score in auto mode but we didnt want the ball shoot pulled before we get to it in driver control.


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