[FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

We're starting to near the last section of build and I've been curious what are the capabilities of other teams robots at this time.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

By "Hoarding" balls, do you mean 20+, 30+, etc?

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

I mean that you have the capability to gather balls and hold them to prevent other from scoring it's broader than the other fields and I see it that if you have no way of storing the balls but in stead shoot and throw as soon as you make contact with the ball then it doesn't count pretty much all others apply.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

I think you're missing a few functions the most competitive FTC robots will have, honestly. And I doubt anyone who has them will say anything about them until they win their events with them. :D

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

Ah, heck, I'll say it.

Look at video of Aim High FRC robots for inspiration. With one exception (an amazing quick-fire catapult) they all used some version of a baseball pitching machine. Both single-wheel and double-wheel versions worked well. If you want to shoot, it will look like a pitching machine, and mostly the wheels will be top-mounted to minimize blocking.

Picking up balls is a pretty easy exercise, as is shooting them. Tying the shooter together with a ball store and picker is the engineering challenge. I predict that a lot of teams will fail at the center mechanism.

Check out the Robowranglers (FRC 148) Lunacy robot for some great inspiration on how to solve this problem. Add a baseball pitching machine to the top and Bob's your uncle.

You can vary the distance and height of your shooter by either varying the shooter wheel speed or the point of release. In 2006, I preferred the second method, but there's not much question that either can work.

A mechanism or strategy that can turn the goal is a valuable thing. I'm not suggesting any particular mechanism, but I have noticed that the penalty for moving the goal in autonomous is pretty small in comparison to the points you can avoid <deleted>. In the middle of writing this paragraph it occurred to me that the GDC is a pretty bright bunch and that they might have noticed that a 5-point penalty isn't enough to dissuade this strategy. In the latest version of the manual the penalty for SG7 has been increased to 40 points. Take note! A relatively minor offense is now the death penalty.

Most FTC robots I saw last year were poorly controlled, and I don't think this was bad driving. The drive motors are so powerful in relation to the size of the field that teams built fast robots that were hard to drive. I expect the best robots this year to have great smoothed-and-scaled drive code. With another cluttered field this year with four relatively large robots on it maneuverability will be at a premium, so I expect to see new-generation driving code to be combined with holonomic drive trains in many of the best robots. Our new FTC robot uses a holo drive and it's a revelation compared to last year's machine.

The blocking rules may engender some strategies which include "drawing fouls" by shooting balls in such a way as to lead referees to believe that another robot was blocking. The reliance of the rules on having referees divine the intent of drivers will lead to mind games where teams try to convince the referees that the other alliance intended to commit a foul where none was meant. I'm not a big fan of rules that require referees to figure out what teams intended, but it does open up a rich avenue for strategy boffins.

Of course, you need a good strategy for acquiring balls. Sucking them up as they come down the ramp seems like a no-brainer to me.

The ability to hold zillions of balls looks good, as is the ability to hit the off-field goals from more than minimum distance. Shooting while moving would also be valuable, but I doubt we'll see much of that.

Just like last year, winning auto will mean winning the match nearly all the time. The auto bonus is so incredibly huge in the last two FTC games that if you can't score in auto you might as well not play. Conversely, a terrific auto defensive strategy might make you a popular alliance partner. A defensive robot won't get you to Championships, though. Top scoring robots will end up top-ranked after qualifying, and while a great defensive robot will be a valuable alliance partner, it will only get ranked high in qualifying if it is paired with a great scorer. Since only alliance captains go to Champs, I wouldn't waste time building a defensive robot. A great defensive team would be a good partner for the best scorer, but won't go to Worlds.

Got to go back to work, but that's my 10-minute analysis.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

After quickly realizing I don't have a team, might as well add some thoughts to Rick's excellent analysis on what I see as stuff that seems particularly important. Disclaimer that I could be very wrong.

Though I don't know how you can build a sliding release point in FTC, I do know sliding release points (especially in Lunacy) resulted in much faster firing, to the point that notable teams this year that relied on wheel speed would abandon ranged firing altogether in favor of building a hood permanently tilted.

40 points, depending on the strategy, might not be the end of the world. I'm not saying it's anything you should bank on but it certainly will happen in at least a few matches with the specific intent of messing up autonomy. Considering auto points are worth double (basically), even if they pick up all the balls they miss or they don't fire if the goal gets messed up, you could potentially deny more points than would be scored in very extreme circumstances.

If I understand what I saw correctly a lot of this was trouble turning, which omni wheels will help with. Holonomic drives will excel at chasing the 5 point goal in particular. If I were building an FTC robot I would go 6 wheel for other reasons though.

I would not be surprised to see a swerve chassis of some sort this year.

This is what I've been trying to push on anyone who will listen. Almost every team I've talked to just wants to deploy the ramp then use intake to get them from there, and that's giving your opponent free points. Controlling the gates with a drop down hopper or just some "wings" or something is more important in my mind than human loading in Lunacy or Aim High. I wonder if you could get away with no floor intake at all if you really had to.

I honestly think the 10 point goal is the most important part of the game. Scoring in it is just as valuable as scoring in autonomous, but easier as you have drivers to control it. The goals are also wider so you can shoot 2 or 3 balls wide into the goal, unloading at ridiculous speeds. Just one corner worth of balls plus a doubler and your preload and you break 400 points. 40 point penalty doesn't look so bad now.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

Think about what it takes to prevent auton. scoring by spinning the bar:

• A bot must get over the center wall consistently or have a very finely designed mechanism to move the bar from outside the wall without breaching the 10" boundaries
• The bot's alliance partner also foregoes the ability to score in the center goal, at least at the regional level, should spinning the bar be successful
• If the bot does make it into the middle, it risks the opposition getting into position to take your ball chute as soon as teleop starts, therefore netting them an advantageous 3 chutes to 1 chute
• Even if the bot does not go into the middle yet spins the bar, and the opposition's bots are smart enough to ignore the auton. shot if it's not where it's expected to be, the bot is still on an even field with them -- 2 chutes for it, 2 chutes for the opponents, except now the bot is 40 points down.
• Let's say the bot tries to go into the middle but doesn't make it one match -- it won't incur the 40 points, but essentially it's now a busted autonomous, which leaves the door wide open for the opposition to score as well as getting more ball chutes than you. A little bit of defense in the endgame, and the opponents would win.

It's definitely a niche strategy that could win in the clutch, but overall it would be very very risky to design for without having already seen the game played by actual teams. I'd put it on par with a Goldman Sachs investment strategy: it's great at the moment for you, but bad for everyone, including you, overall in the longer term.

Additionally, playing defense in auto could also lead to a disadvantage at the ball chutes ... though I'd estimate the chances of that are the same chances two robots block each other on the way to getting their far chute in auton. It's just too difficult to tell how it'd play out right now and so it's definitely an option we'll have available.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

I was personally thinking of getting a close ball chute locked up, then going for the bar (with line tracking or whatever). Partner could secure the far chute. If the alliance only scores their 4-8 preload into the high goal, well, worse things have happened.

Still, this strategy will rarely ever happen. I wouldn't count on it.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

[quote=

I honestly think the 10 point goal is the most important part of the game. Scoring in it is just as valuable as scoring in autonomous, but easier as you have drivers to control it. The goals are also wider so you can shoot 2 or 3 balls wide into the goal, unloading at ridiculous speeds. Just one corner worth of balls plus a doubler and your preload and you break 400 points. 40 point penalty doesn't look so bad now.[/QUOTE]

Ok if you go for the spin bar, then by the time you get there the other robot has the 40 points. IF they can get in range and gets them in right away. THEN its like they have 80 points (I don't think its the best way to win) + they only get 40 points if they get all 8 balls in with alto mode UNLESS they get the YELLOW ball in at the end.:D

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

The strategy would be tuned to the opponent; if the opponent can shoot all 10 of their balls accurately into the goal within the 5 seconds or so it takes to drive forward over the bump and push the spin bar with a spear or whatever accessory of choice is in use (assuming the robot would hit the goal), then the robot could run a "normal" outside goal grabbing auto.

Remember if a robot makes just as many balls in the 10 point goal as the opponent makes in auto, they've canceled out their advantage. So then if the 10 point shooter ends up grabbing a goal worth of balls and scoring them in the end, they could get as many / more points than a team scoring in the 5 point during auto and the rest in the 10 point goal, assuming same number of obtained balls. Add in doublers and the ten point goal basically has the most potential of all of them. granted, this requires a massive hopper and a very fast shooter, so this strategy only works if you had that...

It's an interesting tradeoff to figure out which goal to aim for (or both, then decide at the event), but I think a properly designed 10 point only robot wouldn't NEED to win auto to do super well. However, the event winners will probably be 5 point auto scorers, 10 point teleop scorers...

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

Chris, are you thinking that you're able to score into the outer goals during auto? It's my understanding that no one is allowed to score into the outer goals until the last 30 seconds of teleop.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

I'm thinking ball for ball, a ball scored in 5 point auto is the same as a ball scored in the 10 point goal.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

yes but even if they did'nt get any of the 8 balls in the 5 point goll and they don't get the 40 points and you move the spin bar then your partner and you need to save your 8 balls then when you spin it then you have -40 and they have 0 and the 8 balls are on the floor i can't see how that will help (but its not my team so do whatever you fell like) + by doing that in auto mode i think the judgs won't like that and if other teams see you doing that they might not won't you as a partner.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

well, they will not get 40 extra points in autonomous, and if you or your opponent pick up even 1 ball, it'd be a net gain for you.

That being said, this strategy will almost never appear. It might happen once in eliminations. It's something to consider but it's not only beneficial solely to teams that are facing opponents that always score in auto... if the opponents catch on and don't fire in auto, they can just not fire.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

ok blue (you) did the spin bar now 8 of reds balls are on the floor its the end of auto mode blue has -40 points and red has 0 points so how can that help, think about it

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

It helps because otherwise it'd be (effectively) 0 blue, 40 + 40 = 80 red.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

no unless you and your partner cant shoot them in the 5 point goll then it would be like that IF the other team get all 8 in the 5 point goll in ayto mode and if they get the yellow ball in also,but you do whatever i just think it would'nt be that smart to do it.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

o and every time you hit the spin bar you - 40 points so if you bump it 2 times you get -80 points

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

I wouldn't count on anyone trying to spin the bar in autonomous because by doing so they're saying that at least 8 balls will be scored in the high goal and I think that's very unlikely to happen.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

Yes, this strategy would only be used if both opponents scored 8 balls or more in autonomous and you couldn't. That's why you'll never see it.

You get points for balls in autonomous, then you get points again at the end of the game. No doubler ball needed. Essentially all balls scored in auto are worth double points.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

ok, great now do you know that its not a smart thing to do (most of the time)

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

We reconfigured our loader 100% more efficiant!!, hahaaa i'm gonna post a vid. I'll give you a hint popcorn machine XD

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

Balls scored in auton. are essentially worth 15 points if there's a yellow ball in there. Balls scored without auto are worth 10.

It's because the balls are counted at the end of auton -- N balls
Plus whatever was scored during teleop - M balls

thus the point values are
5*[N + (N+M)*2]

or 5*[2N + N + 2M] = 5*[3N + 2M] -- thus since N represents autonomous balls, they're worth 5*3, or 15 points each with the double ball, meaning it's still worth it to do auto and get the ball. This makes for some very interesting math when making strategies, where impulse decisions can definitely cost you some points.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

This is an interesting way of looking at things. While my gut response is "well you could just double the 10 point goal to make every 10 point ball worth MORE than an autonomous scored, then doubled ball", you do have to consider how accurate and fast your 10 point puker has to be. It's easier to shoot one ball with defense than 25.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

Additionally, you have to look at the time scale. Since there are 30 seconds in autonomous, teams have ample opportunity to get plenty of balls in during auton (I bet the average team that tries at Nat'ls will get 23 balls per auton with several alliances getting 38+). The more the better, obviously, but there's only so much guarantee that a team will get to their second chute during autonomous.

In any case with a sufficient amount of balls in during autonomous, all an alliance has to do is block opponents' bonus ball chutes and/or outer goal shots during endgame. Ball for ball without bonus, auton balls are worth just as much as outer goal balls. Since the alliance who scored only autonomously would be ahead in quantity at the start of endgame, they can afford to use both alliance robots for effective defense in order to win. Perhaps you could let them score a little to up your QP, but that's somewhat difficult to do yet also guarantee a win. Personally I'd rather guarantee the win.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

This is all speaking theoretically since I don't have an FTC team this year, though if you could have a "blocker for the blocker" who scored in auto as a teammate perhaps it would work better. If you can score big chunks of points very quickly, letting up on the defense for 3 to 5 seconds could get a few hundred points. Smart defense could potentially spin you into shooting for your opponent's goal though. :/

I still want to see an all 10 point mega fast shooter, but it certainly looks more beatable now. I'd still build a robot primarily designed for it at this point.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

If you score all of your points in autonomous and then rely on blocking the bonus ball chutes, you lose. You lose because you give up your ability to get the bonus ball and allow your opponents uncontested shots at the outer goal means that a robot specifically designed for hoarding and firing at the off the field goals should still be able to outscore what you've done in autonomous (and to a lesser extent, the teleop).

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

if you relly want to spin it with out geting -40, aim at the goll and shoot at it and it will spin :)

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

from what i saw you guys didnt do anthing in autonomous

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The reason we didn't score in auto mode is because are opponents can pull the ball shoot beside us, so we had tech brick do auto mode so there's no way our ball shoot will pulled ,what im saying is that we can score in auto mode but we didnt want the ball shoot pulled before we get to it in driver control.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

Exactly what I was thinking when I saw you guys sit there. At nationals, I think the deciding factor will be who can get the most balls and not necessarily who is able to score the first 8 in autonomous.

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True, very true we made a long autnomous that releases a ball shoot then scores it can be interchanged with the far or close ball chute.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

When we are close to the goll we aim the robot at it and then it normally shoots 4-8 of the balls in we are working new auto programs for the robot becouse we got the robot done a few days before the competition so we didnt have much time to program.

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

Derrick is correct. Our only autonomous was created one day before the competition because we were planning to shoot without moving.

We had some killer autonomous last year, and we hope to have the same by the time we hit Columbus Ohio.

Here's our sit and shoot... 4 out of 8 is a good start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeM-Te4hE5g

It will be enhanced into move and shoot then dump & collect.

See out autonomous video from last year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Jm0ywi_-88

Re: [FTC]: Robot Capabilities
 

thanks Phil