Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Great job to everyone who was involved in pushing this legislation through.
I see 148 in the background, I'm not sure about the team on the left.

http://governor.state.tx.us/news/press-release/13937/

Does anyone have the specific details about the $1 million state donation ?

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Andrew, I would say it's 3005.

One, the school name on the whiteboard, and two, from taking a quick look at their website, I found this: http://www.robochargers.net/IMG_1468.jpg , which I'm pretty sure is the robot on the desk.


Great job to everyone who was involved in this! :D

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

From what I understand it will be used two ways:
1. Pay the entry fees for new teams.
2. Pay the Championship Registration fees for any teams that qualify to "represent Texas".

This was just what I heard while we were there. I haven't seen any details of the roll-out.

Basically -- $1 million will go straight to FIRST as registration fees. We will have 100+ new "one kit wonder" FRC teams. Hopefully someone has a plan to help them find corporate sponsors and engineers so they can build a sustainable program to survive the rigorous FRC. 148 will of course, do what we can; but I can't help wishing that money was spent in other ways.

-John

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Yes, it was 3005 who graciously welcomed everyone into their brand new STEM academy HS for this press conference. They had a great group of people there and the Robowranglers really enjoyed spending more time with them.

-John

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Just a cautionary note as we discuss this -
while this is a welcome opportunity and initiative, nothing has been said as to addressing any of the actual mechanics of it that I'm aware of. We should be careful of unfounded speculation when discussing it.

As John says, the FRC program is rigorous and the teams that form must be able to be self-sustaining with the support of mentors, sponsorships, facilities, and interest.

I'd like to thank the members of FRC 3005 for hosting this press conference at their new STEM academy high school and also, FRC 148 for being there. You guys always put the p in professional and represent the robotics community and specifically, FRC, well.

Jane

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

I'm really surprised that the state of Texas (apparently) is choosing to send that money to an out-of-state organization when there's the comparable VRC program that is run by a local Texas business which has all of the same goals as FRC/FTC and as a bonus supports jobs in Texas and tourism by holding their World Championship in Dallas. Seems like the VRC choice would have been a much better PR choice for local politicians.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

I too would like to see more of this get applied to sustaining teams. While growth is good (and Texas has shown it has been leading in this for the past few years), being able to maintain a stable and sustaining team would be more beneficial to the FIRST community.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dave Flowerday again.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Also considering how much easier it is to have a sustainable VRC program than it is to have a sustainable FRC program. Teams with few mentors or teachers and only hand tools can be successful in VRC with only the $5000 the state is currently using to pay FRC reg fees, while those same teams would be competing hard against each other for limited sponsors, mentors, machining, and generally be of a less "competitive" quality than they would in FRC.

New teams are great, but sustaining old teams is greater...

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Would it have anything to do with the difference between an organization and a business?

It is obvious that people have very strong opinions about the robotic competitions that are available. Here in Texas, there is another strong competition that is deserving of attention and monetary support - BEST. For that matter, there are several robotic programs in Texas and all have value and are capable of making inroads into the deficit that we face nationally regarding math, engineering, problem solving, science, and technology and people moving into those fields.

I'd hate to see this thread turn into another discussion arguing and/or promoting one competition over the other. It's very clear on where several people stand - consistently so.

.02
Jane

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

I think Jane has hit the nail on the head -- there is no one solution to this problem. The NASA Robotics Alliance is the model I would like to see adopted by more governmental agencies. They have been big supporters of FIRST, but they also support BEST, Botball, Robocup, the Trinity Fire-Fighting contest, VRC, and a bunch of others. STEM education/exposure is not a single problem with one solution, and I don't understand why Texas, for example, doesn't have a more sophisticated program for supporting the goal of STEM involvement for youth.

If spreading STEM was really the goal, shouldn't Texas should be supporting all STEM programs and not just FIRST? This sort of narrowly-focused grant program is more disquieting than exciting.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

I certainly hope not. The primary consideration should be finding the most efficient use of the tax dollars - most bang for the buck. If a business is providing a cheaper alternative than an organization, I see no reason why it should not be considered. Also, while FIRST itself may be non-profit, it is certainly tied closely to many for-profit businesses, and indeed many of FIRST's decisions lately seem to be driven by the interests of those companies rather than what is best for the teams.

Anyway, to be more on-topic, I'll go to this: the Chicago area tried a very similar experiment over the last few years, with After School Matters funding the registration fees for a bunch of new teams. The result has basically been what John is worried about - many (most?) of these teams show up at the regional not ready to compete, not very interested, and definitely not sustainable. They mostly disappear after a year or two. As I understand it, they've basically given up on this program because of these problems and will be using the funding in different ways this year, focusing on more fully funding a smaller number of teams that are more sustainable.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

I don't think that is just in Texas, Rick. Have any other states come forward with this type of money in support of strengthening and supporting the goal of STEM involvement for youth? Do any other states have this many options available to them? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm asking sincerely.

From a Texas starting point, I can look on a map and see the surrounding states and some of their surrounding states and I know that many of these states are struggling to establish support and working goals in these areas. I know states that are in early developmental stages in expanding these programs in their educational systems and on into their colleges. We see growth each year with the scholarships being made available for college applicants. In my opinion, that awareness is slow but is steadily making an impact.

I know this is exciting news and I am looking forward to learning more about it. I'm not going to point fingers or use should and shouldn'ts when we can look at this situation across the nation and across the globe and see that there is a tremendous need for this type of support everywhere in order to build a better, stronger, and healthier future for all of us.

Dave - I understand the concerns voiced and share many them. It is important that the leaders that can make a difference and create these incredible opportunities understand these concerns and be made aware of the risks that are involved when these concerns are not addressed. You'll get no argument from me on that. There is a current thread here in CD regarding mentoring a team long distance. Yes, that is an option and can be very helpful, but the bottom line is that the team has to become self-sustaining and strengthen its ties to the community that it is a part of, using and sharing resources.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

I am nowhere close to the decision makers on this deal but I have spoken with a few staff at the Texas Workforce Commission over the last four years at robotics related events. It is my belief that they indeed are aware of all of the following educational robotics programs: BEST, Botball, VEX, FIRST, MATE-ROV as well as related competitions associated with the Technology Student Association and the Texas Computer Educators Association. This was an informed decision and the case for funding could have been and likely was made by more than just representatives of FIRST. We can all speculate and justify choices for one or all of the above but a decision was made so let's help develop a plan to make it a positive experience for all.

I can say that the Texas Institute for Educational Robotics here at Northwest Vista College will continue to seek funding to train teachers and provide summer camp experiences for students. We will also continue to develop opportunities for teams to attend local FIRST conferences to grow their team knowlege and skill set.

We need all veteran Texas teams to join 148 and others who have not yet posted on this thread to help mentor the new teams by providing workshops, shadowing sessions, ...:cool:

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Washington has a grant program for public high schools which was previously restricted to FIRST teams and is now part of a larger pool of funds for general STEM projects, which can include other robotics programs. This funding combined with corporate sponsorships -- notably from Boeing -- and a deeply committed volunteer base has grown high school youth robotics in the state from a dozen FRC teams in 2005 to more than 100 FRC, FTC and VRC teams today. As the state feels budget pressure, no one is sure how much of this funding the legislature is going to be able to preserve, so sustainability is becoming a bigger topic. Quite a number of schools are adding VEX to their tech education programs in the classroom, and are starting to add after-school VRC programs to go with it. Several FRC programs also field FTC and VRC teams.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

The support is awesome. I'm hoping that the money spent will lead to sustained STEM programs. Like John, I'd like to see at least a portion of the funds targeted at embedding robotics in curriculum in a way that could lead to teams, but doesn't necessarily HAVE to become an FRC registration. I can't imagine the burden this may create for TX veteran teams, but I look forward to seeing the growth and how it all plays out.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Texas does have a more sophisticated program for supporting STEM education of it's youth. Governor Perry mentions it in this statement which can also be viewed on the YouTube video. The Texas High School Project which is supported by the Gates Foundation as well as the Dell Foundation. A month ago, they announced a doubling of the T-STEM high school funding from 46 schools currently to fundinig to support 92 campuses. The creating of T-STEM support centers in Lubbock, Austin-San Antonio and elsewhere across the state, Texas Education Agency support of Project Lead the Way which has a training center at the University of Texas at Tyler. The PLTW courses are fully articulated into Texas Education Curriculum and many of the T-STEM campuses implement. Programs such as the Alamo Area Academies, listed on the Governor's website, in which high school junior and seniors spend a half-day on a community college campus learning trades with the potential for paid summer internships leading to potential contiued employment, support of the National Manufacturers Association - Dream It! Do It! campaign to put mentors in schools working with students to pursue STEM careers in manufacturinig, TWC sponsorship of the Summer Merit Grant program which provides tuition assistance to students to attend summer STEM enrichment programs, ...
So looking at this one instance of funding and support and not seeing support for another program of preference does not equate to a simplistic and narrow focus by the State government on the STEM education program.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Thank you for the clarification, Andrew.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Didn't Texas have something like 30+ teams drop out of FIRST that participated in 2009?

Seems like if you know that there's that much attrition it's a really bad idea to just hand a bunch of new schools $6,000 and say "Here, have it at. Go start a FIRST team".

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Not quite 30,

1326 -
1867-
2157 -
2287-
2597 -
2664 -
2938 -
2991 -
3071 -
660 -
2721 -
2743 –
2948 –
2953 -
2981 –
3106 -
3035 –
3037 –
3043 –

Still a lot of teams that won't be back for 2010. This goes along with JVN's thinking.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

It's looking like it is around 18 but the number may not hold. We'll have to wait and see.

We are not the only state or region that has suffered losses.

One aspect of this that I'm interested in is the BEST teams who may be given more incentive to participate in FRC if and when the monies are made available. Several of the teams that I am familiar with could bring a lot to the competition, including experience, enthusiasm, and an understanding of the demands of build season and the value of time management. This could be a very exciting opportunity.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

@JVN

Were teams (and which ones) allowed to give some input into this initiative? For example, as you were saying there are better, and possibly more effective (VEX), ways to spend the money, it made me wonder if teams were inquired as to what exactly they thought of the legislation. My biggest concern as always- team sustainability via FRC.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

I can't speak to this, except to say that 148 was not "consulted". (Heh, as though anyone needs to consult with us).

In fact we were not told anything about the content of the press conference except that there was a "robotics initiative" being announced by Governor Perry.

-John

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

418 hosted a visit with a group of public officials a while back and talked with them about our program. Some of those officials spent some time talking with our lead mentor, Mr. Bertucci. I can say that I have been told that it made an impact. I don't know first hand of other teams, perhaps some will post. Did we know about this initiative? No, I don't think so - but as Andrew Schuetze has said in his posts, this was an informed decision. Please read his posts over again, including the links, and read Governor Perry's statement.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Texas added 46 rookie teams in 2009 (91 total) ,

(Early Estimates) 10 rookies & 6 veterans have dropped out for 2010
Roughly 20% of teams started are having trouble and this will only get worse as you stretch your veteran support thin.

As of now, Texas has 15 new rookies in 2010 (89 total teams)

How have other states dealt with rookie attrition and helping train large crops of rookies ?

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

I couldn't agree with this more. I think it's great that Texas has taken such an interest in the program. However, quality is better than quantity, especially when it comes to FRC teams.

If I had to critique the FIRST program, probably one of the first things I would say is too much effort is being expended on getting new teams started and not enough effort making sure formed teams stay afloat. Case in point: FIRST team numbers now stem into the 3000s. Why doesn't FIRST have that many teams competing in a season? According to the FIRST website, the projected number of FRC teams in 2010 is 1,800. Where did they all go? Yes, some have merged, some may have folded and started anew, and some may have fizzled out due to lack of members. But what about the rest? This means that almost half the teams ever started are no longer in existence. There's got to be a reason behind this, and I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more research as to why all these teams seem to be disappearing.

I personally would like to see speeches during this year's kick-off/at Championships that revolve around sustainability of formed teams, rather than ways to get new teams formed. FIRST is like a huge extended family, so why aren't we taking care of our own?

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Thank you Andrew L. for getting back at the meat of what type of discussion is needed. Let me say thank you TWC for $1,000,000 of team support to grow FIRST in TEXAS:D

Now with this tremendous amount of support, WE - veteran teams, mentors, other folks working on this effort, need to start brainstorming ideas on how to support these new teams.

Who has ideas on which regions might be ripe for starting new FRC and FTC teams? We will need new folks to step up and host FTC events as the two championship tournaments in Texas can't handle the increased capacity alone. The tough part will how to handle team growth in new regions. We will likely need FRC types to consider hosting FTC events. FTC veteran teams will need to step up their game in terms of mentoring. It might be due to smaller team sizes in FTC and it's young age in terms of FIRST but I've not seen as much FTC work in the area of the Inspire award area. Maybe that is my FRC background and newness to FTC.

Who, Where, & When can a group of folks host an off-season event to invite potential new teams to shadow or get a glimpse of FIRST programs.

Start thinking who you need to invite from these new regions that may be forming FTC and FRC teams and hosting events and get them to a FIRST event this year. Maybe your team uses extra seats on your bus to a tournament to bring some of these new organizers or pre-rookies to the event you are attending.

WE need ideas so that a plan of action can be made. Texas FRC regional directors and FTC affiliate partners along with our newest FIRST Senior Mentor will need to put a plan together so yesterday would not have been too early to put some ideas on paper and email them to an RD, AP, or FSM.:)

I am not saying that the above folks don't already have some ideas or plans aren't being formulated. Nor am I saying that all ideas submitted will be included in the final plan of action. What I am saying is that ideas are needed and welcomed and will be considered.

APS

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

1st) - Hooray!
2nd)
I'm out-of-state, but I'm curious. Is it a foregone conclusion that the start-ups have to occur at an unsustainable pace?

If the money is truly for rookie teams' first year registration fees, maybe someone clever will find a way to start 10-20 sustainable FRC teams per year, for the next 8 to 15 years?

Invest the money at 6% (net) and you can get the registration fees for 10 start-ups per year without even touching the principal...

Blake
PS: By the way - "Yes", I know governments rarely invest money into endowments; but it is an interesting thought.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

(Speaking on FRC) Currently, we have two regionals in the state, both of which, are full to capacity (I believe.) I'd like to see more teams start out in the El Paso and Pan Handle area as they have regionals outside of the state they could attend. At the same time, it makes it harder for the veteran teams to mentor them. Houston/Dallas area wouldn't be a bad area. I'd even recommend them signing up for small regionals outside of Texas, such as Bayou, which is a smaller regional with less competition. It would be a good way to get them started and going out of state to compete makes it seem a bit more exciting and inspirational (in my opinion), which might cause teams to stick around longer. I'm purely referring to these 'one kit wonder' teams, and I'm making this assumption based upon a team gets their registration paid and a kit of parts while the state says "Go!" I've met one of these teams at regional last year, and if we as the more established Texas teams could help them in any way, we should do everything that we can.

Last year we hosted a small offseason-scrimmage during the summer, it was a great opportunity for us to train new drivers. A lot of the issues that came up from attending teams is that students weren't able to go or that the school district wouldn't let them. If we could "borrow" robots and have these new teams run robots during an offseason, it'd give them a good start of what the competition is like.

Does anyone know when this $1,000,000 is for? 2010 season? 2011 season? I'd be inclined to even start them on VRC, it's the cheapest, and closest approximation of FRC, in my opinion.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

It's my understanding that it is not for the 2010 season.

Texas is big with a lot of potential. I think we'll see a 3rd regional in the near future, especially with this news. What we don't have are a lot of teams, including veteran teams, that understand the importance of networking, supporting each other, and working together. I think we saw that earlier this year when we were trying to put together an off season. James, thank you and 1477 for putting the scrimmage together so quickly when the other one(s) didn't work out. We need more of that. The veteran teams are going to have to pitch in with their experience, their know-how, and be willing to work to build a stronger network of support and communication in Texas. The potential to build something amazing involving all the areas of Texas, the teams, the sponsors, the FIRST leadership, the schools and communities - is incredible. This could include supporting or enhancing curriculums that are established or will be established in schools and communities.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

Oh, if were only so easy! But since FIRST has distanced itself from IFI, I'm afraid that it will only go to FTC. :(

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

OK. I’m going to attempt to write this more as a prayer than a rant. I hope it comes across the right way as I realize there is some detailed information we don’t yet have at our disposal. However, there are a few things I just feel compelled to state:

I pray…
1. … that the Governor and State of Texas apply their awesome vision for STEM/robotics education in a fiscally responsible and sustainable/lasting way.
2. … that this $1M won’t be thrown around quickly as a solution all by itself, with no consideration for the people in schools who will be asked to implement the program. I’ve seen ugly situations in the past.
3. … that these funds won’t be gobbled up by “hungry” schools who don’t really understand what it takes to compete in FRC/FTC.
4. … that, if we do wind up creating a bunch of new FIRST teams really fast, TX can find a way to support them all sustainably. The number of non-returning new teams from last year frightens me and I do NOT envy the job of the TX veterans
5. …. that when I see the key factor being a teacher or teacher decision as the reason for a team dropping out this year, that this WILL NOT become a program that creates more of these situations. I’m a full time teacher and the amount of energy it takes to sustain a full-time FRC program in/with the school is ungodly on top of the full-time job I get paid for. Not a year goes by I don’t consider stepping back. We’ve introduced FRC to at least three-dozen other teachers in our district. Most run away scared or laugh out loud even though they think it’s “cool”. For the brave few who have helped, I haven’t been able to sustain participation of any of them for more than two seasons and currently I’m the only teacher directly involved with our FRC team (unless you count one that said they’d look for pool noodles for us). Now if you want to talk VRC and robotics education in general, I can point to three other teachers in our district with a lot of involvement. (can you tell this part hits really, REALLY close to home for me?)
6. …that, although I’m thrilled TX supports STEM in schools with other funds as well, this $1M doesn’t make less of a lasting impact than it can.
7. …that there will be some application process whereby an applicant school MUST SHOW it’s READY to take on the program rigors and sustain both financial and people efforts needed to be a success (similar to NASA grant process, perhaps?).
8. …that someday someone will call and say they’ve got $1M to spend on robotics education and want to know what my friends and I think should be done (OK, this one is a little vain, but you get the idea…) By the way, I REALLY like Blake’s question above.

Namaste, TX, and good luck. My gut tells me you may need it.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

There may be an even bigger picture to think about/look at. I've created a new thread for discussion here.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

I think that the "lots of teams" model won't work very well. I'd rather see a third of the teams or fewer, but larger, with a very wide sponsor base apiece instead of a deep sponsor base for all of them. You have a wide base and lose a sponsor, you get another one. You have a deep base and lose a sponsor, you're hurting for years.

Instead of going for everybody, you go with one location in X area. That team is now responsible for getting rooted, developing business relationships, spreading the word, etc. in that area. Give it a few years, and ideally, it's ready to spin off another team that can last a long time because of existing relationships and new advertising. Something on the order of NiagraFIRST a few years back: we work as "one business unit" until you guys are ready to go it alone.

This is almost ignoring the FTC/VRC level, but you could easily modify that to work the same way. Club X runs out of room for new students, all the students in club X from Y area form club Z with its own complement of teams--and the relationships needed already in place.

Re: Texas FIRST teams doubling in 2 years
 

As of December 7th, 2009 data shows only 9 teams from 2009 not returning but one or two of those may be on a wait list bringing the number down to 7 or 8 of inactive teams. Of the current 9, three or four are veteran teams so about a 10% or less attrition rate in a 2 to 1 rookie to veteran team ratio. Current number of active Texas FRC teams is 105. greater than 10% net growth but 20% actual considering the attrition rate.

Anybody have figures for any other states? How does Texas compare? The above are estimates and guesses as I have not directly contacted the 120 total teams in Texas (current or past) to determine actual status for 2010.