I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

To President of FIRST Paul Gudonis, FRC Director Bill Miller, Regional Director Sue Lawrence, and to whom it also may concern,

I have delayed in sending this message in the hopes that my passion over this issue would fade over time. It has not, and circumstances have only strengthened my resolve.

I am outraged and extremely disappointed at how the volunteers have been treated at this year's events. Having volunteered at FIRST events for seven years and having been involved in the FRC for eleven years, I have become accustomed to a certain way volunteers are treated.

In previous years, the way that the volunteering process was handled was that the volunteer inputs his or her information, the events they're attending, and their volunteering preferences into a volunteer database such as VIMS, the local volunteer coordinator then contacts the volunteer to confirm availability and check their qualifications for the position they're volunteering for, and if the positions are filled, work with the volunteer to find another position that suits their talents. I am disappointed and shocked that this is no longer the case.

For the past five years previous to now, I have chosen to volunteer as a referee at competitions including the Great Lakes Regional, the Detroit Regional, the Finger Lakes Regional, the Florida Regional, the Buckeye regional, and last year, the Kettering Rookie Regional. I was a referee at the Championship in 2004 and 2006, and had the distinct privilege to officiate the final matches on Einstein in 2004. I have also been a Head Referee at offseason competitions including Kettering Kickoff, WMRI, Ford Sweet Repeat/TFFRI/ARC, and MARC. Due to personal reasons as well as public ones apparent to anyone who was a referee during FIRST Overdrive, I felt it was no longer productive nor healthy for me to continue to volunteer in this position after 2008.

I therefore decided to utilize my skills as a college DJ and radio host to help the newly formed competition structure in Michigan. I volunteered my services to help with event production and volunteer procurement. I contacted Gail Alpert and Ms. Williamson in August with this in mind, and was told that I would be utilized at a later date. I was excited and ambitious to help this new program reach the high standards that I have seen the FRC set for regionals. I defended the program against naysayers that were afraid of the change that it would bring, because I saw the potential for healthy growth in the FRC.

In September I submitted my requests for volunteering at a personal record of five competitions, with the preference of using my experience as DJ, radio host and FLL MC to shift my FRC experience to Announce, MC, or DJ. With my vast experience in this field as well as my proven dedication to FIRST, I believed I had a decent chance of getting my VIMS choice at at least one new district competition. I was unaware of the unfortunate changes in the volunteering policy.

In early January, I received word from Volunteer Coordinator David Nolff that the positions that I had asked for were filled. I inquired about the refereeing positions and was likewise told that they were filled positions. It turns out that it was a moot point, since I later found out that I am optometrically unqualified to referee this year's game. An open position, however, was FTA, which Mr. Nolff said he needed me to fill. I reluctantly agreed, based on my dedication to helping out wherever I could. I then proceeded to take the initiative to learn everything I could about the position. On January 21st, I followed up and was told that FTA training would occur after February 7th.

On January 30th I was contacted by the head referees of the competitions I was attending, with regards to volunteering as a scorer. I replied that they were misinformed and that I would be the FTA at those events. On February 5th, I was contacted by Kathleen Simpson regarding volunteering as a scorer at the Championship. I likewise informed her that I hadn't applied to be a scorer at the Championship or any other event. She informed me that the VIMS system had recorded me as volunteering for scorer at Kettering, Cass Tech, Wayne State, Troy, and the Championship. I rechecked my VIMS account and replied that her report was wrong, as my VIMS account had me down for Announcer and MC, but that Mr. Nolff had told me I would be FTA instead. I then contacted Mr. Nolff for clarification. Mr Nolff informed me that the FTA position was no longer available and that he had put me as scorer at the last second. I expressed my annoyance at being the last person to know about this change. I then found out from another source that there was a darker rationale for the change.

I learned that the Michigan FIRST Board of Directors had new rules, which prevented me from volunteering in most volunteer roles, especially the ones that I had experience in. I was told that due to certain misunderstandings during FIRST Overdrive, I was put on a blacklist preventing me from refereeing, announcing, MCing, being an FTA, or any other position of responsibility in Michigan. I was understandably incredulous, not to mention frustrated. By mid-February, it is too late to change plans to volunteer out of state, not to mention the hassle of being forced out of the state I have called my home for the past 25 years.

During the last few competition weeks, I have learned more and more angles about this new system. I learned that neither of the events in question were my fault, though both as a referee I take responsibility for, and clearly done without malice or forethought. The first involves a good call that a Head Referee overruled me on, and I am criticized for not sticking with my call, even though it was not mine to make. The second involves myself being a Head Referee at an offseason event, as an inexperienced associate referee made a call that went against a team in the final match, then forgot to mention it to me before the score was posted. I was then forced into a decision where I either had to publicly revoke the call, or include the penalty in the match. Under duress and time constraints, I decided on the latter, without the foresight that it would change the outcome of the match, and therefore, the winning alliance.

These events involved the same team which I, contrary to the call, actually have a great opinion of and respect for. I am friends with mentors and alumni on the team. Unfortunately, taken out of context, the above occasions give an impression of bias against that team. And two of the Michigan FIRST board members are affiliated with this team, which may explain my place on the blacklist. It does not explain the existence of other career FIRST volunteers on this list. I have learned that a Woodie Flowers Award Winner is on this blacklist. I find it appalling that someone who is nationally recognized as the best mentor in the FIRST Robotics Program would be considered unfit to volunteer in the position they usually volunteer for. The fact that they are unwilling to scream "bloody murder" about this injustice just shows their humility and respect and justifies why they have won such a prestigious award. I however am not that humble or revered, so I feel I must be a whistleblower. This person is not the only one who has crossed the Michigan gods. A mentor that I have known for many years and had the privilege to have worked with was on the blacklist. The blacklist includes a courageous young mentor that has taken it upon herself to be the watchdog for equality in FIRST as well as a friend to all teams.

Though I feel honoured to be in such good company, this connection that I have with them is abominable. If FIRST is now allowing bureaucratic board members to wield veto power over hard working altruistic volunteers and me as well, without any concept of how much effort and energy we've put into not getting paid to do what we just love to do, just to satisfy their own ego and powertrip, why is FIRST allowing it to happen?

I talked with the volunteer coordinator at Wayne State during that competition, who was shocked to learn that I had volunteered to MC the Detroit District. You see, she had just spent countless sleepless hours trying to find a person to MC it, and finally begged a few inexperienced Wayne State radio people to do the job. Why put her through all of this hassle, when a completely competent and experienced volunteer is willing to do the job and has been for 6 months? Why doesn't the VIMS system give her the ability to see that I am volunteering for the job, and why is some FIRST board member standing in-between us? Why was Andy Baker forced to travel all of the way to Michigan to be Head Referee at Cass Tech, when there are competent and willing volunteers here in Detroit that would be excited to do it?

A similar situation happened the next week at the Troy event. The announcer was forced to cancel at the last second and personally asked me to fill in for him. I agreed, and informed the volunteer coordinator Margaret that I would be doing so. Meanwhile, a FIRST board member actively solicited other mentors, some of whom had other plans, to fill in because they "couldn't get an announcer." When I showed up to announce on Friday and told MC Dave Verbrugge, that board member rushed up and curtly and rudely snapped at me that "We already have an announcer! We're all set. We're all set!"

I don't understand why FIRST is allowing their board members to interfere with the normal volunteering process. It seems to me that the volunteers should be allowed to volunteer in the way that they prefer to, as long as it doesn't damage the whole FIRST experience. I'm not saying these things for revenge, or for my own personal vindication, but because I am honestly concerned for the integrity of the volunteering process. There are people with power over it who are using it for their own selfish purposes instead of its original intent of procuring reliable and dependable volunteers.

It is my belief that the volunteer process, specifically VIMS, needs to be more transparent. Clearly FIRST Board Members see something completely different than I or Volunteer Coordinators see when I enter VIMS, especially since they're allowed to secretly change my volunteer preferences and volunteer history without me knowing. I am not even sure anymore what VIMS says my volunteer history is - after I send this letter, will it say I'm unfit to volunteer for any position now? If this is how VIMS is being utilized now, then in 2010 I personally will be contacting the regional/district volunteer coordinators individually to state my volunteering intentions instead of using the corrupted VIMS system.

Oh, and by the way, I never heard back from Gail about how I am helping with procuring volunteers and event production. Lip service or not, I am still awaiting that call.

As a final note, when I went down to the real FIRST competition for the Atlanta Championships, I received a completely different welcome. I was bestowed with a golden FIRST volunteer passport, which signified my dedication and longevity with the program. I was overcome with emotion seeing the difference of how I was treated there, which was with respect and dignity. It made me think that if those volunteers that have a longterm interest in volunteering with the FIRST programs were respected so much, perhaps they should be given a first shot at volunteering positions before anyone else. Sort of like a chance to do an early registration. Either way, I find the passport system to be a terrific idea, and I wholly endorse continuing and expanding it to other volunteers.

Thank you for your time,

Regards,

Daniel R. Swando
Cell: 586-XXX-XXXX
XXXXX@gmail.com

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

For those of us who do not know the underlying story to this post, could you please explain why you are 'blacklisted'?


What happened here?

This phrasing seems to hide a 'coin story': A coin story being one that there is two sides of.

Please tell both sides of these stories, as the current phrasings feel very counterproductive. You may or may not have valid points, I don't know any of these situations personally and FIRST is by no means 100% perfect. However, right now the message you are sending is that you are too hot-headed to be placed in an important role.

This may sound odd, but sometimes the best volunteers are willing to help, rather than wanting/demanding to help.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Added links for clarification. Will add more when I get home from work today.

As for WHY I'm blacklisted - you'd have to ask FIRST President Gail Alpert or one of the Michigan FIRST Board Members. They refuse to tell me. I have to presume that it's about refereeing calls.

Edit:

That's the reason I bit my tongue and kept silent last year and just went along with it. The news that Michigan FIRST is CONTINUING the blacklist next year is why I refuse to be bullied any longer.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I'm not sure I quite understand what your intent is with posting this announcement in ChiefDelphi. It would seem that this is, at this point, personal business, and that you have contacted FIRST regarding your concerns. Beyond that, what else needed to be done? If you felt so strongly that you wanted to share your passionate attack (This.Is.WAR!!!), a better place to have created this thread, might have been in the anonymous forum where you would have had the level-headed wisdom of a moderator to assist you.

You are also including others in your attack that have, for their own reasons, decided not to follow this path of making a public announcement and declaration of 'WAR!!!' I hope that you have checked with them and received their permission to be included in this posting.

Jane

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I'm thinking that he's hoping the added effect of public pressure that posting such a letter might create would influence FiM or FIRST to do something it has not done alone, in a similar - yet less civil - manner to the request for transparency submitted a few weeks back. Not to say the situations are similar, but perhaps that's the line of logic followed.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I have no independent knowledge of the situation. Without more information, I cannot have an informed attitude towards Dan's position. But I don't think the Chief Delphi forums should be a battleground, and beyond that statement I will not discuss my thoughts on this topic publicly.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I don't see what you expect to achieve by posting here.

Public outcry?

I highly doubt you're going to get members of the ChiefDelphi community calling up FIRST HQ in arms about this.

Airing dirty laundry in public is never a good course of action.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

CD isn't FIRST HQ, FIRST HQ isn't a state's FIRST "board". A state board isn't a Regional Director, etc.

So, who knows (no speculation please) the right place/person Dan should contact to untangle and resolve this.

It should turn out to be no big deal to get it cleared up. Let's do what CD does well by pointing him in the right direction and then move forward.

Blake

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Ordinarily, the volunteer coordinator is the one you'd go through. If that doesn't work, the Regional Director. With this being MI, you'd go to the MI state board. After the RD or state board, you'd go to whoever the appropriate person is at FRC HQ; namely, whoever is keeping an eye on the state board. From other communications, I get the distinct impression that this would be the FIRST Board of Directors or the FRC Director.

He sent it to them already. Therefore, posting here serves no purpose, other than to get emotions inflamed. When emotions rise, bad things happen.

I would like to express admiration for one thing in the letter, though. Namely, managing to keep a relatively even tone despite obviously simmering inside. That is a rare gift: showing emotion without losing a professional tone. Let's hope that it doesn't need to be cultivated often.

To the mods: Consider this a request that this thread have an eye kept on it to prevent a firestorm.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

For those of you who have said that this is nothing more than dirty laundry being let out to air. You are correct and wrong.

If you look at the top of the letter it states this was sent [to those who can fix it] on August 16, 2009.

That statement means that Mr. Swando has kept this private for as long as possible. But after several months of NO reply. Or possible just a bunch of red tape. He has kept quiet for as long as he can. He refuses to be treated like a number.

As we ALL know. Dave Lavery read CD. And several other FIRST "higher ups" so to speak. So. By posting it here he makes sure that those with power can see it. They may be completely unaware of the situation. Those with power can then help him, if they see fit to do so.

The Title.
By putting "This. Is. WAR!!" in the title of the thread is allows those who are just randomly searching to see it and read it. Thus. More publicity. More people see it. And yes. Numbers can be power. Chief Delphi is, as some have said, "here to help". Not "Here to point you away from us, then wash our hands of you." Which is how I am taking some of your posts. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I for one, for the moment, side with Mr. Swando

-Rion

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I usually don't post in heated threads and I hope not to regret this.

Dan, I thank you for all the assistance and dedication you give to FIRST. You are someone I look up to.

I do not feel that giving negative feedback about how people, especially those who donate time, talent and other things, are treated is a bad thing. At times, I have felt abused by people that request my time and I walk away worked up. It is important to settle down over time, some things might take weeks or months, before talking to anyone about it. A letter this long obviously had time and thought put into it. If it is posted here after three months than Dan has thought it through and stands by it.

I wish you the best of luck. Remember, if FiM doesn't want you in one of the positions then don't be discouraged, you shouldn't let the board members control your emotions.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

If they don't want you, don't volunteer. If your a good volunteer, it's their loss. I really can't judge your abilities from the few posts I've read from you. However, I must side with those that say CD simply isn't the place for this. As someone posted earlier, Dave might stumble acrossed this...but so what? What are you expecting him or anyone else to do? You've contacted the people you need, now you really need to just wait. It might take years but that's what needs to be done.

Last note: Always think to yourself, is this the message I want passed onto my students? If you really want this to be the example you set, keep doing it. I, for one, wouldn't want to set such an example.

Sorry for the annoyance of this post, it just seems people are using CD more and more as a battleground. Please don't do that no matter what the battle is.

Sincerely,
Jason

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

So, is the TL;DR for this post "Bawwwwww, they won't let me do the volunteer job I used to do?"

That's all I read from it...

Forgive me if that's a little harsh, but FIRST isn't yours. It isn't an open organization nor is it controlled by outside members. FIRST let you help out. It's their organization, and thus their choice who helps and who doesn't. We appreciate your help in the past, don't get me wrong. But opening up some dirty laundry isn't exactly the best image to be showing off of oneself...

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WA!!!
 

I'll not comment on the actual post, only a technical "point of order":

ChiefDelphi is NOT an official FIRST forum. If one wishes to communicate with FIRST, it is best done through an official channel, such as in a letter or on the FIRST forum.

If, however, one wishes to communicate with a section of the FIRST participants, ChiefDelphi is the place. But it's unofficial!

.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WA!!!
 

Heh, this isn't 'war'. It's a robotics forum. Sure, it's a place to air out dirty laundry from time to time, but to 'wage war' against FIRST is to undermine the entire reason you volunteered in the first place ... right? So what you don't see eye to eye with the organization in everything it does. It isn't the first, and won't be the last. Such is life as an engineer, and you should learn to get over it.

Of course this is only my menial, unofficial, ambiguous, and otherwise fully c.y.a.'ed and caveat'ed opinion. It's even slightly uninformed because after the first paragraph I thought "dear God, it's another rant that goes on for ages" ... so I didn't even read the rest.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WA!!!
 

Simply put, this is a valid concern, and a well written post. Just a terribly worded title. Don't jump on a guy for his choice of title, just read the post and make your comments. I believe he has a very valid concern and it does raise a few issues. I know of another volunteer who was overworked, under appreciated who ended up leaving FIRST because of it.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

As a follow up and lengthier explanation:

The above letter was passed around the offices in Manchester and resulted in the FIRST Volunteer Coordinator (Dennis Howland) calling me and having an hour long productive discussion. I reinforced my VIMS concerns and thankfully, a new version of VIMS is tentatively scheduled to be rolled out that should address some of my concerns. I also reinforced my support for the volunteer passport system (Yay!).

Dennis confirmed to me that the final decision at the Regional level lies with the volunteer coordinator, and that regional board members are not supposed to have any influence over the decision making process. This is not the case in Michigan, however. We agreed on this and agreed to work with the MI people to resolve this issue. Unfortunately, I just had a prearranged conversation with the MI Volunteer Coordinator who informed me that the Michigan board was refusing to talk with me, refused to tell me what vile, despicable act I performed to deserve being blacklisted, and was further restricting my volunteering to Robot Inspector only.

He further told me that the reason I was being restricted was because the Michigan board has set up new "qualifications" in order to be permitted to volunteer in Michigan. My refereeing, DJing, announcing, and MCing experience were apparently not enough to "qualify" me to be permitted to volunteer in Michigan. This is the part that is completely unacceptable. When power-mad bureaucrats are choosing who is allowed to volunteer and who isn't, and nobody is willing to stand up for the volunteers, somebody has to spread the word.

I have no illusions about what I'm doing. I'm perfectly aware that by posting this information on Chief Delphi, I'm pretty much signing my death warrant as far as volunteering in Michigan is concerned. But if getting the information out forces National FIRST to crack down on this insanity and Michigan is forced to permit volunteers that don't suck up to their power structure, then I'm willing to martyr myself for that end.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WA!!!
 

Not against FIRST. Against the corrupt Michigan FIRST group. It's like the difference between Al Qaida and Al Qaida in Iraq. Same name, same goals, different organization.

Clearly you didn't read through my letter. I explain in it that I find their humility and respect admirable for not speaking up, but I am not that humble.

MI VC is gutless, MI has no regional director anymore, just the Board which refuses to talk with me, Michigan has no oversight from HQ AFAIK. So I went to the top. Thank you for your comment on my tone. I aimed to keep emotion out of what is already a tangled, messy situation.

As for the title, I should've scaled back on the rhetoric and went with "This is UNACCEPTABLE!" instead. But it did catch some attention, and the only bad press is no press at all.

Thank you for not having an opinion on this matter. Graciously.:rolleyes:

Actually, I wrote it in March, sent it in August, and continue to stand by practically every word in it. Both rtfgnow and Formerly Famous are partially correct on my motives.

Everyone else, if CD isn't the appropriate place for FIRST related discussions that affect a large percentage of us, then where is? Frankly, what I'm asking CD is - what the heck is a person in our situation to do? If anyone has any better ideas on what I should have done (other than going to hell), I'd love to hear them.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I chuckled at the highlighted contradiction in pronouns a little :rolleyes: :p Also: This. Is. Sparta! (ok ok I'm only here for comic relief)

On a serious note: (I'm not going to comment on if Swando's post belongs in the public domain or not.)

What I am wondering is if FIRST as a whole, or Regional Directors/VCs, should be allowed to pass judgement on something like this. A bad call from the past really doesn't seem like it deems a blacklisted volunteer.

My question is: Unless there's a significant negative effect of a certain person volunteering, is it really, oh hell I'll say the word, "fair" for FIRST to publish someone on a blacklist based on trivial impetus?

Also, I'm curious how you came to this conclusion, Craig. Care to elaborate?

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WA!!!
 

I, as someone who had, has, and will continue to have high hopes for the success of FIRST in Michigan and across the globe must say that I hope you realize that not everyone in Michigan is "corrupt" some of us truly care.

Sorry Dan but I would hope that personal attacks were beneath you. Regardless of whether the VC is actually gutless you shouldn't say it. Having doubts, disagreements, or concerns is fine but insults undermine your credibility and add nothing to your argument.
As someone who has seen Dan at several events and talked to him about similar things I don't think he wants war against FIRST or that he wants FiM to fail. I think (and he can correct me if I am wrong) that he wants it to succeed thinks openness is a requirement. I remember parts of this letter from a discussion in Atlanta. I don't think Dan is angry, he sees a wrong and is trying to right it. Plus, if there is a problem we shouldn't just ignore it. If someone who has been involved in FIRST as long as Dan sees a problem and it eats away at him for 8 months and he goes so far as to write a letter to FIRST HQ and have a phone conversation he is clearly not just complaining.

If FIRST HQ sees fit to respond to this we shouldn't just disregard it. CD is a place for discussion. This isn't internal team politics, this is stuff that affects every last one of us. If it isn't good to discuss it and get word out I want to know why.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WA!!!
 

For the first part of the quote: How is that really scaling back? Any time you have all caps and an exclamation point, that isn't really scaled back. Perhaps simply, "I Kept Quiet for too Long" would convey the same point without the un-needed yelling.

For the second part: I really don't care. Sorry to say it, but I'm not really concerned about your personal vendetta with FIRST(or whatever you want to call it). I'm more concerned about having a peaceful place I can give and take advice. Someplace that I can go to socialize and get away from the hostilities of the modern day. CD is kind of an escape for me from the every day hustle and bustle. Realize, I am not saying to not pursue it. I'm just saying that there simply might not be a place for such a public outcry. At least not currently. My suggestion would be for you(or anyone) to make one if you(or they) see it as necessary. I really suggest against public announcements such as this. They are generally used to create group hostility to support one's cause without the group having enough knowledge to really be hostile. So, I guess my advice would be to deal with it yourself and move on.

This is my last post in this thread. I've already given more time into this then I really should have. If someone has questions for me personally, please direct them to me via PM. I have no plans to follow this thread any further, however I do feel obligated to explain any part of this post if there is sincere confusion.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WA!!!
 

I read this thread and your letter. I think all of us can agree that FIRST is not perfect and from what it seems like, you have been treated quite unfairly. It happens to the bulk of us and what you posted is still personal. At least, you put in some effort to help make the volunteering process better in your opinion.

That's about the best you can do.

After giving FIRST HQ and Michigan FIRST your two cents, there is not a lot you can do to control their actions.

You can't force them into giving you a position you want if they refuse to give it to you. If you are confident in your skill set, then maybe you should move on to another regional district or any other activities (maybe beyodn FIRST). I'd rather go where I am welcome.

In my dealings, I always remember this one phrase - "The value of a bar of gold is always going to remain the same".

Good luck.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

The only thing I want to say to all this is ...

"FIRST isn't what it used to be anymore. It makes me upset and it makes me question many things."

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Ditto to that- Volunteers are people who should be treasured- not used as commodities.

When the FIRST world finally realizes they are a volunteer organization and not a mega-corporation with paid labor we will all be better off.

WC :cool:

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I can understand the need to keep a list of people who are and who are not allowed to volunteer for certain duties. I think everyone who has been a member of a FIRST team can confirm that certain people simply shouldn't be doing certain jobs (even if they don't realize it).

However, the creating, maintaining, and auditing of that list is absolutely critical. Obviously it needs to be kept secret: telling a worthwhile volunteer that, for instance, they simply don't have skills to be an electrical robot inspector can be very hurtful to the individual.

Dan seems to have approached all the avenues of communication. Now, feeling that he'd run out of options, he went for the nuclear option. I can understand that and sympathize with it.

I certainly hope that Dan's airing of this 'dirty laundry' results in a positive reviewing of Michigan First policy and a formalizing of the system for 'blacklisting' people. Unfortunately, and much more commonly, an action like this results in a circling of the political wagons and the immediate commencement of damage control.

FIRST In Michigan is a new organization, and is certain to have some growing pains. So far they've done an outstanding job of laying out and trying something new: reactions have been incredibly positive. I sincerely hope they continue that postive growth by taking this as a postive cry for help that they can help to resolve.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Dan,
I am sorry you have kept this to yourself for so long. Several of the people above are taking that immediate, knee jerk reaction to bringing such a subject before the masses. I have to agree but only to a point.
I have known Dan for a long time now. It seems like only yesterday but it must be close to ten years now, when I first met him as a student. Dan, is a quiet individual who has worked tirelessly for First in any position needed and many times filled in when others were absent or failed to achieve their goals. First runs on the experience of it's volunteers and the outstanding work they perform. Although I am not aware of all of Dan's abilities, I would not hesitate to have him as a Robot Inspector. I know he would be fair, helpful and would act with GP in performing his tasks. Good luck in your quest, Dan.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Point 1.

From what I understood his email was not about not being able to do the job he wanted. Yes. He was mad about that. But by looking at this email as a whole is covers that fact that, yes, he was unable to do his job. Why? Because of something that happened that he saw no problem with at the time. He was then blacklisted. And not told. (Personally, I think a person has a right to be told when they have been blacklisted) This hurt his chances of volunteering at all. So overall, He is not crying about not getting the spot he wanted. But instead addressing the simple problem he was faced with. He was blacklisted, not allowed to work where he desired due to being blacklisted, not told until AFTER someone and changed where he said he wanted to. And on top of that, lied to.

That is just what I got out of his letter. I didn't hear crying as I read it but a calm voice with passion behind it. Could you please explain to me how you came to your conclusion?


Point 2.

On the note of FIRST isn't ours, if not the teams, then whose is it? If not for those who help run it, how could it be here? Who exactly does it belong to?

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I feel like this is honestly a situation that could happen to anyone. If this was based off of a team-related issue, I would agree that it does not belong on Chief Delphi. However, this is a FIRST-related issue that, theoretically, could affect anyone. I do not believe that Dan posted this to gain sympathy or to necessarily rally us against FiM/FIRST, but to make us citizens of the CD community- the dedicated students, mentors, sponsors, volunteers- aware of a situation that probably DOES affect a handful of people across the globe.

Also - after reading this thread, I do not believe that Dan was trying to bash FiM, or that his actions in regards to whom he contacted were out of line. Dan, would I be correct in saying that, had FiM not existed and the same events were to occur with the Volunteer Coordinator and Regional Director not getting back to you, that your position and actions would remain the same?

Many people tend to jump the gun when making decisions, which is what happened here. It is very hard to judge the outcome of a situation without ALL of the background information, and sometimes there are not enough hours in a day (or several days) to get all of the information and talk to all sources.

The only part of this that I just cannot understand is why anyone would make decisions such as this without informing all parties involved.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I wasn't going to step in, and I still won't involve myself with any of Dan's statements, because I'm unaware of any details, BUT...

After working as an understudy to the Boston VC last year (I'll be a co-VC in '10), I just would like to say that not all VCs treat their volunteers as commodities. One very unfortunate isolated incident doesn't mean that ALL volunteers are treated as such, or that all VCs are the same. I happen to have a wonderful appreciation of the time our volunteers put in to the regional- I've been a volunteer -for FLL, FTC, FRC, FIRSTPlace, you name it- for many years myself, so I understand the commitment.

I'm sorry this happened, but I certainly hope that this doesn't scare people away from volunteering. Volunteers are the only reason FIRST events run at all. One bad apple -if that's what this is- shouldn't have to spoil the bunch.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

But one should be very careful what actions they use to attempt to correct it, and be wary of the consequences they may have.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Dan,

Thank you for bringing events like this to the attention of the FIRST community. I completely sympathize with you, and think volunteers, especially or your status, should be treated with as much respect as possible.

To those of you who do not think this belongs, in CD, I strongly believe you are wrong. CD is a place for members of the FIRST community to communicate and spread ideas and information. Dan is doing exactly that, informing us of his ordeal.

I also think that ignoring the political correctness in others' posts would be a great idea, so spread this far and wide.

Those are my 2 cents, take it or leave it.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I would just like to remind everyone that we are only getting one side of the story here.

I know Dan a little from my experience from FIRST. I know some of the people I believe that he is attacking (WAR) very well and I respect them highly.

I am not saying they need to come on here and represent themselves. I am not saying they need to handle things differently. I am just saying that we, here on CD, are only getting Dan's point of view. Maybe there are other circumstances involved that he may or may not know about, and that he may or may not be sharing here. I don't know.

And, in general, (this is not directed at Dan)...yes, volunteers should be treated with respect, but not all volunteers should be given the same authority. The level of maturity, emotional control, and overall attitude need to be taken into all accounts. Sure, the volunteer could be the most devoted FIRST person in the world, but it doesn't mean they should be in charge of a key position at a competition because of it. But, how do you tell them that?

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

It is very easy to say that FIRST has changed. That is a no brainer. It is also easy to cast stones in CD and other places. It is far harder not to. It is far harder to keep looking at the bigger picture and contributing positive efforts towards understanding the bigger picture. Contributions can be made in the way of volunteering, in mentoring, in participating, in supporting, in being a wise and helpful contributing member of ChiefDelphi, in understanding the process of change and its impact.

Volunteers have a responsibility to the event. From where I sit in the stands (when I'm not volunteering) - I can see the weight of responsibility that is on the shoulders of an emcee, an announcer, a head ref and his/her crew, an FTA, a VC, and the list goes on. I can also see how the connection of that volunteer to a team, a region, a program - can impact those that the volunteer is connected to, directly or indirectly. We often discuss that impact here in ChiefDelphi, stating that how we conduct ourselves and what we say will reflect on our teams and our supporters. It can also impact on the events where we volunteer. It would be irresponsible to think that because one is a volunteer, that there are no consequences involved with that gift of time and effort. There are always consequences. Whether those consequences are helpful or hurtful will be dependent on the wisdom, integrity, and mature decisions made by the volunteer, on the field and off the field.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

And that is the great travesty that has occurred here. If the person being blacklisted has no idea of the reasons that they are being excluded (or the reasons are invalidated by the facts of the situation), and has no chance to rebut the accusations, then how can this be interpreted any other way than a witchhunt?

I am. I am saying that this is a childish and unprofessional manner in treating volunteers. I am saying that administrative bureaucrats have absolutely no place in the FIRST volunteering system. I am saying that it has long been FIRST policy to keep administrative bureaucrats out of the volunteering process for just this reason, and that the final decision is supposed to lie with the Volunteer Coordinator.

I heartily agree. This is why high school students have traditionally not been offered roles that could affect the outcome of matches, especially ones that would affect their teams. This is why the Head Referee is usually a position of gravitas and someone who has shown his/her ability to be fair and impartial. That is why the MC is traditionally someone who has a large amount of knowledge of teams and carries a long history and amount of respect. One can debate until the pigs come home on whether or not one's local "key roles" are being filled to this standard.

You tell them by treating them like adults and explaining the standard which they're judging volunteers by, and if you think that they're unqualified give the reasons WHY you think they are unqualified and allow for a chance for explanation.

Since I am qualified to only speak for my own record, I will use myself as an example:
3 years FLL Announcer
6 years FRC Offseason DJ (Wrote the book on DJing as well)
5 years Regional Robot inspector
3 years offseason scorer, 1 year Regional Scorer
5 years team mentor
6 years Regional Referee, 3 years FRC Offseason Head Referee

In addition, the Head Referee at 95% of the regionals that I've reffed can vouch for my skill at refereeing. The FLL committee of the regional I announced can vouch for me. The committees of the offseasons that I've DJed can vouch for my excellent playlist skills (even if volume may be an issue. I'm working on that). Any head robot inspector can vouch for my inspecting abilities (Thanks Al!), and I have NEVER heard a criticism of any of my abilities in any of my positions that I didn't immediately remedy. If anything, I am my biggest critic in the positions I've been in. As for emotional control, I think that from January through Thanksgiving, I have maintained a level of dignified maturity that far surpasses what should be expected of someone in my situation.

The problem is that I REFUSE to be bullied like this. I had enough of bullying as a geek in High School and I refuse to be bullied by strangers that don't even know me. The fact that myself and others have been forced out of the roles that we have the most experience in without any regard for respect or explanation is a travesty that must be remedied. I and the others may go on and volunteer our services to regionals that still have respect for their volunteers that Michigan lacks, but it's a shame that the state that we call home would stoop to this level.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WA!!!
 

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I'm in Texas, granted it's a different story but I have a feeling many things like this happen everywhere. Dirty laundry may not help us as a community but on a personal level it provides two things that are good for the poster and reader:

1) The first being that you get big issues off your chest. This is the probably why people are so negative. In reality, no one cares about you on a personal level especially on a board where the (most of the) masses blindly eat, sleep, and drink the notion of FIRST.

2) You publicly let everyone know what is going on so that they know and are informed. As a volunteer, I WANT to know things like this happen so I know that the next time I apply for MC or Announcer with 2 recommendations from MCs and Announcers with prominent names in FIRST, that there is some reason. Especially when on game day, many people in the audience question why you weren't selected.

The idea of introducing something to the public is not for acceptance [or at least for me it sure as hell isn't]. The purpose of my ideas the purpose of publishing these posts are to tell people what's going on from their eyes and what they see called as they see it. You can ignore everything said, but the purposes of these [ideas in the form of] posts are to get even the harshest of critics to read them. To get them to think about the idea [albeit in a negative way or not] they develope opinions for or against and have to think about it. Even if for a second, the next time that something happens you have this log stating what happened, where, when, etc.

To get attention for an idea you must seek down to sometimes the most outspoken levels. The ones that might make you look bad, but for the greater good of your idea, get the message out. In regards to the title, who on the forum would not open a thread called "This. Is. WAR!!!"? ... Apparently you just did so it worked. You're reading. Those quick to judge please look at the date the original letter was sent and please consider why he would care to share with us so late if he wasn't getting anywhere. He already sent this, he just wants an answer as any person who has sweat blood and tears as he, has the right to demand.

If something is kept private it is easier to hide because no response required. If something is made public it can either be pushed off and hope the people let the issue die out or the the public pushes forward and to clarify for the sake of their reputation, they must say something.

Especially on a forum where the most junior of mentors on this forums such as I are passionate volunteers, we can if we choose, make a difference. Just think of the posters in this thread and the hundreds of hours of experience that if gone, a regional would have trouble functioning without.

The blacklisting is something that is angering me right now. I will not post further on it. But even in my short time and history with FIRST I have noticed the political nonsense which does not make me question my involvement in some areas but not in others in FIRST.

EDIT:
Apparently the idea got addressed. That was the success.

Arefin is completely right. FIRST isn't what it used to be. Nor will it ever be the same again. Power does that. And power can defined in many ways.



Pavan Davé

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I'm sorry Dan, but I think you are taking the wrong approach to this. And this statement:

really makes it out as a personal vendetta against those you are at "WAR" against. And by saying you are doing this for the good of all in Michigan as your basis behind posting this on CD seems contrary to the message I'm getting from your posts.

I also know you know some key people here in Michigan (and one not in Michigan anymore...ahem), and you can regularly find Gail's phone number posted all over the place on these forums. Did you even try calling her?

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Was it not personal vendettas that caused the pilgrims to run to America? Was it not personal vendettas that caused the Revolutionary War? Was it not personal vendettas that cause the Civil War? Both World Wars? The start of the Lutheran Church?

All I am saying is that personal vendettas do not start bad things. But do not always start good things. Regardless of wether or not this is his personal vendetta, is it moraly right for us to tell him he should not post his opinion on a website created for teams and mentors to help each other?


The begining of Mr. Swando's first post stated that the email was sent to all whom it concerns. At least that's what I got from it.

-Rion

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I guess my perspective is skewed. To me anyway, all the volunteers at these events are there to make the competition run smoothly and make sure everyone can play the game. Our hard work as a volunteer team makes sure that happens.

Some roles may be seen as more 'fun' (such as MC or Announcer) but ALL of the roles are just as important. There would be no matches to MC without the Queuers. And no robots on the field without the Inspectors. Etc...

The FIRST competitions are a celebration of the high school students accomplishment of 'solving' the game challenge. Personally I don't care how much 'glamor' is in the role I'm fulfilling when I volunteer. I still get the satisfaction that I helped to make event run for those hard working students. Isn't that what it's about?

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I think I understand what may be the missing piece here.

Was it not your call to make in the first place or not your call to try to overrule the head ref on? If the head ref is wrong and you can prove him wrong then why not do it ... not in a challenge of authority sense, but in a 'make the right call' sense? Did you even ask? I'm only asking because if you didn't then it serves as (even illogical) reasoning for bias against you.

This is easily flipped to be biased against you by saying that you didn't ask the inexperienced referee whether or not there were any penalties. It's particularly egregious due to the timing, regardless of whether or not that aspect is under your control.

And here is why it's all biased against you.

Two calls were made against the same team. That means the MI board of directors is basing their decision off of someone's subjective interpretation of your attitude and the look on your face when you made the calls as well as the timing of the calls. That interpretation attempts to reveal the intent of your calls. If the team your calls were against thought you made the calls out of spite, or were intentionally calling incorrectly for whatever reason, then that's the answer. There's no telling how many letters were written in favor of not allowing you to volunteer in positions that call for possibly subjective judgment in the future. What would you do in that situation if your team had calls made against it in the same manner? Wouldn't you at least write the regional director with the overall agenda of saying "WTF?"?

If such letters exist, then in essence FIRST HQ, being an organization with some sort of chain-of-command, has probably agreed with the MI Board to some degree and will probably not pursue the specific issue or overrule that specific decision, ever. Improving VIMS is their next best option.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any corrective action to take other than to get to know someone on the Board, and enjoy volunteering for what it's worth in the meantime. An apology for public defamation (name-calling in general is bad, yet calling your best advocate 'gutless' is particularly arrogant ...) would probably be in order too. If you can't live with that then like I said before -- you see it differently, but you're the one who has to get over it. That's not a slight to you; it's a general fact of life.

FIRST must evolve in order to expand; is that a bad thing? There's all of this assumption of power hungriness without even minute consideration to that what one doesn't know. What's amazing to me is that 4 years ago I could have empathized with this statement and now I can only imagine a little kid sticking his thumbs in his ears so he doesn't have to listen to what he doesn't want to hear. The same principles that work at a small scale of 500 teams and 20 regionals are completely annihilated on the scale of 1600 teams with 40+ regionals. Should the energies of HQ be spent over every squabble or grievance of every team or should HQ delegate those out and focus on bigger picture items, like trying to achieve its goal of inspiring even more kids?

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Many mentors around my age and older, who were FIRST students and now are mentors are irritated and almost fed up with FIRST to the point where we're uninspired by FIRST now. Is the point to gain a new base but lose an old one? The point is to inspire but if the contrary, is it really worth it?

its discussion, not that other thing
 

Its pretty encouraging to see that there can be some good discussion on CD even after a declaration of war (dangit Dan, that was extreme - its good that you have followed up in a more diplomatic fashion, keep trying). CD is a good place to have the discussion imho, because I don't think there is much discussion going on anywhere else. The concentration of volunteers is probably pretty high at this site. Hopefully the discussion continues in a positive way.

The FiM organization has some very hardworking and incredibly dedicated individuals who have a point of view. My experience has been that people who may have other points of view are not typically encouraged to give input to FiM. I'm one of 'em. I have tried to give input or ask questions in the past, with multiple approaches (private, public, official, unofficial), to get discussion going about making things better, and feel like it has not gone very far, and even put some people on the defensive. It would be great if the trend toward transparency applied in this great state too.

Its one thing to have a list of people who you don't want in key positions because you don't think they will do a great job. Its entirely another to have a list of people who you don't want because they don't share your point of view.

What to do? Maybe the best thing to do is to volunteer where we are appreciated. Communicate directly with the volunteer coordinator. Help the volunteer coordinators do their job, and expose situations where they are being overridden by politics. Make sure we are qualified for the jobs we are going after. Keep the discussions about this stuff going on, so others can learn from the experiences.

We definitely have to keep volunteering, we know that - FRC needs us.

Ken

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I'm glad you were treated well. All volunteers deserve that. Apparently not all have been and some have complaints. This isn't the only instance where I know of volunteers who were omitted or "black balled" for lack of cause.

FIRST IS a corporation that makes many of its decisions like a corporation with little input from the bulk of the teams. However it expects a broad base of volunteers to make the events run. Volunteer organizations run based on member councils and voting on major issues. Apparently FIRST doesn't consider itself such an organization. I hope that clarifies my statement.

I think the FIRST community at large expects way too much from the NH office- and vice versa.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Part of that might be the natural order of things, in a way. There are some threads in CD that have discussed mentoring and participating in FIRST while attending college and/or becoming established in a career. Discussions about pros and cons and decisions and exploring new options. If people are uninspired and bring negative attitudes to the program, to teams as mentors, and to events as volunteers - how does that help the program and the goals of the program? Inspiration goes both ways, especially after one graduates from high school. For those who have been students in FLL, FTC, or FRC - the transition to mentoring or participating in FIRST as an adult may be smooth or it may be difficult. Some of the reason could be the expectations that the graduate brings to the transition. That reason can also be applied to the changes in FIRST as it continues to grow, expand, develop, and mature. Wasn't FIRST in Michigan a pilot program last year? Next year will be its second year as a district program. What was learned in the pilot program will be applied this next season just as in FIRST where each season has brought more experience and knowledge to the development of the program.

Perhaps this is an area that has not been developed or looked at closely. How do young adults make the transition? What can help young adults who want to stay involved, make the transition? Do they only want the glamorous 'rock star' status or do they want to work and apply the skills and knowledge that they gain while volunteering and/or mentoring while going to school or establishing themselves in new careers? Is this area of development being addressed and does it need to be? These are some questions that don't need to be answered in this thread but they can provide food for thought.

Jane

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Your last sentence is definitely on point.

The FIRST office in NH does not directly organize and run the nuts and bolts of the many FRC Regions/Regionals. FRC Regional Directors and state (regional?) boards have broad semi-autonomous authority (within bounds).

For natural/understandable reasons, this organizational factoid is lost on many participants. They just think of FIRST FRC as a single monolithic organization, when it actually contains something akin to a franchise structure (not exactly, but there are similarities).

Blake
PS: With great authority comes great responsibility.
PPS: When are we going to move from discussing symptoms and consequences, to discussing root causes? to be followed by change suggestions?

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Echoing Blake.....definitely on point.

Just to clarify a couple of things. FIRST is a non-profit corporation. And corporation is a legal instantiation of a non-person entity birthed by 'articles of incorporation' much the same way a person is made legal by a birth certificate, but I digress.

Most people, students, teachers, corporate mentors and the people that work at FIRST tend to gravitate to the hierarchial institutional model of how things work and how things get done.

That is a big mistake. In reality the FIRST community is more like an evangelical church. The folks at HQ guide, direct, cajole, and keep the flame but the heavy lifting is done at the regional and local level. The growth of the program is done by the technological evangelists more than by any decision made at HQ. The 1st role of the folks at FIRST is to exert leadership by reminding everyone of the goals and mission of FIRST. Their 2nd role is to coordinate and communicate.

Root Cause - Chief Delphi is full of threads of conflicts related to the misunderstanding of how FIRST really works - falsely assuming that FIRST is a traditional linear monolithic thing, it is not.

Moving to solutions - Everyone at all levels needs to understand how the FIRST community really works.

There is periodic discussion and thrashing in every organization including FIRST on the topic of creating a set of 'best practices'. Ideally there should be a set of best practices for everyone that works in the FIRST community.

Think about it. If you were Dean Kamen, or Woodie Flowers, or Bill Miller, or Paul Gudonis there really should be a book on your shelf that has your job's 'best practices'. Ditto for volunteer coordinators, mentors, students, etc, etc.

that my 2 cents at Blake's PPS.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Perhaps you should consider that it is we who are changing as we experience a new viewpoint more than it is FIRST that is changing?

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I believe the past few years and defiantly in the future you will see a lot of discussions of the future and the past. This will also bring a different breed of rookie teams. This will all be explained by one thing; the core of the upcoming teams will be people who have been brought up through the system. With any person who went through a system, when they get older, they see the picture is a lot different then before. Also, changes good or bad will always have opposition. Forums are made for one point; discussion. You may not always agree on what a certain person has posted, but the great thing about it is that you are able to not click on the thread and read it. Dan has made a bold move with putting out his thoughts. Along with what Al said, I have known Dan for a few years and he is an intelligent man and deserves to be heard as is everyone else.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WA!!!
 

Once in a while I see a comment like this that is totally lost on me. I don't have any knowledge of what FIRST use to be.

Where we are is only of modest importance. And where we are going is what is really important.

Effectively growing programs like FIRST and making a very big impact on our society is a tough organizational management problem that will take some smart and creative people to make it happen.

FIRST is over 200,000 students, 85,000 volunteers, 3,500 institutional participants, and a few dozen paid employees. The institutional leadership/management challenge is not trivial. Solving it is worthy of an article in the Harvard Business Review.

If there is some sort of lost knowledge or magic from the past that FIRST possessed and doesn't today I'd like to know more about it so we can capture it for posterity.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Topic matter aside, I'd like to remind everyone that this thread is indexed by google. Although perhaps unlikely*, it is conceivable that the things said today could be picked up during the digital stalking associated with a job hunt.

This letter could easily cost Dan a job if it were found during the hiring process. HR does not want crusaders, it wants workers. I have seen this happen before first hand. Regardless of right and wrong, they hold the power.

It reminds me of the Dilbert strip where Wally is at a job interview, and the interviewer says "Your resume says that every boss you've ever had was a total jerk."


* This thread is the #1 google hit for "Dan Swando FiM", a reasonable search if it is included on the resume.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I found this ironic...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...43557087368947

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Sean's point here right on. As a mentor for FIRST for 10 years I can honestly say that working with FIRST from a mentor's point of view has pretty much stayed the same. FIRST HQ's job is not to inspire, it's our job as a mentor. We need to shield the students on our respective teams from the political mine field that is FIRST (and any large corporation).

Remember, as a mentor, you are "they" and you are the reason the students come back. Do not think that you are supposed to be inspired by FIRST, but FIRST is to be inspired by you. FIRST is giving us the forum and it is our job to inspire.

I was never a student in FIRST, but pretty soon the majority of mentors will be former FIRST students (which will put me in the minority). I think that this year I may concentrate some of my WFA speeches at Regionals talking about how FIRST changes as you move from student to mentor as I fear Pavan Dave's sentiments are common among many former FRC students.

Anyway, remember that as mentors we have much more influence over the student experience than FIRST HQ does, hands down.

Paul

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

My best guess can be summarized with this analogy: Think of a family gathering that is held every year. The few years only one family and a few friends take part. As the generations pass however, the children move away, create families of their own, and soon the small gathering has expanded into a hundred person get-together. The guests are all technically still related through the tradition, but the sheer scope that the event makes it feel different. Especially for those family members who took part in years past, this might feel like a horrible shift from the way things used to be.

This is only my second year in FIRST, so I can only speculate. Perhaps though, the lost magic is merely the fact that the "event" has become so large that much of the original "feel" might be gone. Perhaps we no longer know all the party-goers by face, or that there are some new games or foods that we really don't like. The fact remains however, it's still the same party, with the same family, and the same goal. As long as that at least remains the same, then the gathering is still the same.

Re: its discussion, not that other thing
 

I just really took the time to read and re-read Ken's post. It has my attention.

(There are at least 3 topics in this thread that I can count but I think this post connects directly with some of Dan's frustrations.)

One of my fears/concerns regarding districts is the potential for little fiefdoms to create themselves due to any number of reasons - one being lack of experience in managing the program on a district level. Another being a lack of common vision or shared vision for continual and on-going development at a district level. If voices are being silenced or shut out and no one is willing to listen to the wisdom of someone like Ken Patton and be open to discussions regarding how to improve and evolve by listening to wise input, then this shows a weakness, not a strength, in the developing program and its implementation.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I think Paul and Sean nailed it on my question of "the good old days of FIRST". It took me a minute to figure it out since I'm ancient and never had the student experience.

I can easily see how a wide eyed youth can pick up a romantic view of FIRST and then later in life when they become older, more experienced, and more battle hardened become a little more cynical.

As Paul alluded to the battles that are fought in running an organization like FIRST exist in all organization, corporate, political, non-profit, military. That is part of the hard work of groups of people getting things done.

The literature is full of examples of youth entering the clergy, politics, business, education, etc with a not particularly realistic view of how things really work.

But as Paul said "they" is really "us". Paul has a real challenge explaning this in one of his speeches.

edit: As soon as I posted this and I look up at TV and there is this this special with Peter,Paul,and Mary, from the 60's. The days of the idealist poet musicians. Kinda reminded me of this discussion.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I remember when I was a kid just out of high school about 12 years ago. I found this forum and saw that it was a wonderful place to share ideas about the game, building robots, teams and the methods they used to get through the season. It was an excellent place for a kid to really connect with other people and enjoy science and technology on a whole new level.

Today I look on this forum and I see alot of crap about behind the scenes politics and about how people are angry and miserable about this program. All things that were always very hidden to the eye of a student in my day. Back then, a student like me who was surfing this board enjoyed a sense of the magic that was a FIRST competition. Today a student surfing this board is saturated by the negative backdoor junk that they shouldn't even be subjected to.

Years ago I couldn't imagine FIRST without this board.

Today, I wonder if I should even promote this board to my kids at all.

Its a darn shame.

Maybe its time we should all get back to the basics...the joy of building something amazing with the people you care about.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I haven't been around long enough to know what CD was like back in the day. I do think however that to say that CD is saturated with negative moaning and groaning is simply not true. I'm still coming up on the first anniversary of having joined this board. The wonder of such an amazing group of people coming together to discuss our organization still exists. This is still the best place to come for information on robotics, still the best way too meet fellow FIRSTers from around the country, and arguably one of the best places to get some good laughs. I have never once regretted visiting this forum (except when I realize that I'm falling asleep in front of the computer, using my unfinished homework piles for pillows =).

But in all seriousness, there are still far more positive things to be found on these boards than negative ones. I recommend this site to all of my robotics friends, not because there are some somber discussions (those can be found anywhere), but because of all the wonderful things that this place has to offer. At least this year, that has not changed.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Ok, I have read through this thread a couple times now and pondered on how and whether or not to respond, and I have chosen to add my opinion on the matter, and I'm still not sure if this is how I wanted it to come out but here it is.

Dan, I know how you feel, and I understand the method to your madness. Politics often play a role in many things, and people may not like the outcome, but sometimes you have to just deal with it, as there isn’t going to be a change. That’s how the real world works. In the end you have to ask yourself why do I volunteer? Why do I sacrifice my time? and I’m pretty sure you’ve done this. I’m pretty sure you continue to volunteer not only because you enjoy it, but because you want to inspire in any way you can, and you want to help make sure everything runs smoothly for the teams a the event. I’m pretty sure that there are many things you’d like to volunteer for, but volunteering in itself should be helping out wherever needed. It is also just that, volunteering, you don’t have to do it if you feel like you‘re being singled out for only specific jobs. I know FIRST is a volunteer driven organization and they need every one they can get to make sure events run as smooth as possible. I also wonder sometimes why(and I’m not calling out FiM for the record) the state of Michigan alone has four(well three now!) Woodie Flowers Award winners and not one of them is on the board of directors for FiM. I don’t know the logistics of the whole thing and if they were asked or not, but I do know of at least one that has expressed interest in helping out. I don't want to get involved in that. In the end you just have to ask yourself if it’s all worth it as I have done with the choice to continue mentoring, and that is the I in FIRST, inspiration. If all you want to do is inspire, then be the bigger person and just volunteer where they need you, and inspire all of us no matter how we are treated by FIRST or the event staff or whoever, to continue their support for the FIRST program and everything it stands for.
As for the FIRST is changing people, it is but it isn’t. You are now seeing it from a different standpoint. I am a few years removed from being a student, and when I made the choice to mentor, I had to take a step back, rethink how things were, and readjust, because you realize that the way you’re used to seeing things done are not necessarily the way you viewed them as a student. I do support students becoming mentors because they can bring back their experience and pass it on. I also feel and this is just my opinion, that students who become mentors will have a leg up on the mentors that were not students, once they grow into a mature mentor.

P.S. Dan I know this probably isn’t what you want to hear, but just keep doing what you do because volunteering is better than just giving up and not doing it at all, and in the end you’ll feel better because you helped INSPIRE people to never give up. GOOD LUCK!!!! Dan:)

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I would like to begin by starting with my story of starting.

Then -
This year my team captain showed me the website. I absolutely loved it. Seeing as how FIRST is what REALLY got me into engineering, this was the greatest thing ever. I never saw public debates. Just people helping each other out.

Now - Though I have only been on Chief Delphi for 11 months, I have begun to see it differently. I still think it is wonderful. I still consider it the best site on the internet. (Second to MyLifeIsAverage of course. :D ) But I now see it in a different light. For it is not the site that has changed, but my view point.

What I am saying is this - Back when you start on this website, everything is new and magical. As you go on you begin to be able to pick out the minor problems. As time passes you begin to see the minor problems as big problems. (I'm not saying your wrong. I'm just saying this is what happens to me. )

Of course this website has changed. But this is due to the generation. This is the change caused by those who post here. If it is for the worse. I shall save that discussion for another time.

On the note of not showing this site to students. Why not? Why shelter them now? Where ever they end up going they will see it. Why not expose them in a controlled environment. In my personal opinion I would rather learn how to deal with it with a net to catch me if I fail then the shark infested pool we call the real world.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Just because a program is in it's first year, does not give it a right to be so problematic. "Michigan was just a pilot program" is no excuse, its like saying "he's just a kid" and we know that that doesn't hold up in a court of law, so why are we letting those kinds of phrases hold up now? Especially when even though it is a pilot, it has has had the experience of over 15 years? Yeah, I'll give you a few small things here and there, but the amount of emphasis put on it's pilot status for this organization is nonsense.



You know as much as the rest of us that the people who have dropped from FIRST for some reasons have dropped and the people who have stayed have stayed. From the tone of many people in my boat on this thread and my own personal history, we try our hearts out, we do what we can, and its not about college or about other things like that because we continue to mentor and spread a positive message, and will continue to do so with a smile on our faces [for the most part].

For me, what inspired me to a large degree was mentoring the FLL students at a local elementary school and seeing their eyes light up when they realized that engineering was all around them and they could be apart of it. I still see that light inside of me somewhere but its no where near as prominent due to the changes and attitudes of FIRST.

You ask about young adults making transitions and I can see that and can assure you that most of us don't do it for any "rockstar" status. I highly doubt the reason most people continue to be involved with FIRST is to be "popular". Of anything, some do it to build robots while in college, others do it to polish resumes, while others do it because they want to give back to something in which they've already received so much and for some its a mix and match among other reasons. But I refuse to believe that people like Arefin Bari decided to be mentors because one day they said "hey I wanna be a rockstar!" I don't just refuse that, but I can't even imagine someone thinking that.


EDIT:

People change with time. After responses of people more veteran than me, I understand where you are coming from as I only have almost 6 years under my belt but from the past few years, many major changes have taken place and I guess I'm a bit blind sighted as I am still in the transition from student to teacher so I don't doubt that in 10 years I might be saying the same as you but from my observations, my feelings, and mutual conversations with people in my situation I call it as I see it.

EDIT2:
[quote]I understand because I feel some members of my team felt the same way when I joined these boards and voicing my opinions. But the reality is, if not now, when? If you post something completely stupid and one of your mentors chews you out, when will you learn? In the real world? I'd rather learn when my job is not on the line, where people are more understand, and where at the end of the day, regardless of our feelings, our end goal is the same, spreading robotics to inspire ... I can personally say that CD has had a major impact on my life in regards to what opinions you do voice because I had mentors that cared about my well being enough to scold me when necessary. Why deprive anyone of that experience? Also you get to see what's really going on and I was introduced to politics on a small scale. It, and being a key player of a robotics team helped me and prepared for the politics of life ahead, in college and beyond.... Why not start young? I'm VP of my fraternity because of my experiences in robotics.

Pavan Davé

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

For all the recent members who are reading this thread, do not get the wrong idea. This is a great place to be and you should gather from this thread that there are people who can come here and speak their mind on any subject as it pertains to FIRST. You will find the true goodness of this board when the build season starts. For the newer mentors, this is a place where you can start long friendships and get some real answers to perplexing questions including volunteer issues, team dynamics and robotics. You are involved in potentially the greatest student activity (outside of school) and if you approach it with that knowledge, you will see we all feel we are not doing enough. We are passionate about our involvement because we know the impact it has had on so many. Have some left disillusioned? Of course. Any organization will number disillusioned among it's ranks, including boy scouts and girl scouts and church groups. This discussion is not intended to bash First but to help make it better.
To Ken Patton, as always eloquently expressed and even somewhat reserved.
To Paul Copioli, thanks for reminder, I needed that. We need to keep students at the forefront of our thoughts, always.
To Sean, keep it up, you have inspired me for a couple of years now.
To Jane, I wish we had you around here years ago.
To the others, I am happy you are here. Please stay, contribute, test us, inspire us, question us, it will make it better for all.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Yes, I talked with the number of key people that I know in MI, who either blew me off or didn't know anything. I don't know Gail, but what I do know is that I've been trying for the past month to contact the MI board for a discussion, and was told this weekend that the MI board pretty much told me to go to hell.

When Dave started promoting CD at kickoff a few years back, I immediately knew it was a bad thing. CD has always had flareups of criticism and politics, and I knew that exposing the general FIRST public to these things without the benefit of historical context was going to lead to misunderstandings. I have never promoted the site to students because I agree with both Andy and Paul - it's our job as mentors to shelter our students from the politics that get in the way of inspiration. The part that will haunt me about blowing the whistle here is that after keeping this situation from them all year, my students are seeing this, which makes me angry that I was forced into this situation.

I think Paul is one of the best people to speak to this topic, since he watched me grow from a shy high school student to an influential mentor. When I started mentoring, I was still trying to recreate that "high" I felt when I had my first "inspired" moment. It took a solid three years for me to learn that my role as a mentor needed to change and I needed to be the inspiration for the next generation of students and stop looking to recreate the "good ol' days" of being a student. I have to thank Paul for being one of the mentors that had to whack me over the head with that reality, even if it took a few whacks. I think everyone should listen to what people like Paul and Ken have to say, even if like Ken said, they don't share your point of view.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

You weren't forced into anything. You didn't get the job you wanted, you were offered a position that would allow you to stay involved and keep furthering the mission, and then you chose to air your dirty laundry here. I can't speak to whether your blacklisting was justified before, but by now it most certainly must be; I wouldn't want someone with such a demonstrated sense of entitlement holding a prominent position at my event.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

It was a choice that you made, Dan - you weren't forced into this, even though you apparently feel that you were.

CD is a place where opportunities to network, interact, develop, learn, share, contribute, and build community can occur. It also has much untapped potential in many areas. Yes, it started as a form of bulletin board and has quite a history of growing over the years - just as FIRST has grown and the teams have grown. But, it still has a long way to go before it has maximized its potential to impact the future in a positive, refreshing, and community-based way, alongside all of the growing pains. I'm a firm believer in that.

Jane

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Thank you Jane for the great explanation.... I agree.
Over the many years of the History of this site - us old timers - do see change but we also see exciting growth in an organization (FIRST) that ranks in magnitude to very few others. Reaching out to the masses in an effort to change or alter a culture with a vision spawned by Dean Kamen is still to this day exciting to me. This website enjoins this vision celebrating the good and dealing with what may be viewed as the bad.

Dan...... frustrating as this all seems - and to you I am sure it is very frustrating... please keep a perspective on life that celebrates each and every moment of sharing your ideas, expertise with the most important.... the students. We shall NEVER see all the greatness that has resulted from FIRST and associated activities... but rest assured YOU HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE!

I only have 1 piece of advice: When confronted with a situation you are not happy with take time and evaluate what has happened, what is an appropriate path and seek out to have a conversation one on one with persons you feel can listen to you and make a difference in your position. Yes, I would suggest that you contact Gail.... she is a great person, great leader and has a heart so large the world falls into it... please start with her and see where it leads.

Dan, consider me one of your friends.........

I say all this in public forum.... the Community of FIRST..... We share.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Robotics is about people. It always was, it always will be. Our inability to communicate, graciously and professionally, compassionately and understandingly, remains the number one reason we are unable to put people first.

“Gracious Professionalism” is one of the major pillars of FIRST. It is the foundation for the culture we work so hard to create, and yet it was never once mentioned in a discussion of 63 posts. Not even once.

I’ve never written a post, a message, or a letter, where I am unable to sit down with my readers and talk about the exact same thing in person (yes, even the long ones, with notes...). We should always be able to sit down talk things through reasonably, logically, and professionally. And yet, how many in this thread can say the same thing? How many of you really tried to reach the person behind the sentences and the names? 14, by my count.

I spent some time reading the entire discuss, tallying the types of message posted in this thread (multiple messages within a post are counted individually). Here is what I found:

10 posts clarifying the issue and any potential misunderstanding
4 posts expressing willingness to explore both side of the story
15 posts of positive suggestions, constructive criticisms, positive encouragements, and acknowledgments of positive attitude
16 posts exploring important implications of said issue, analyzing the underlying issues of volunteer organization, addressing bigger pictures of FIRST in general, and moving the discussion to a whole different level.

I am highly encouraged by these responds made in a very difficult conversation.

Your clarifications and willingness to explore kept the discussion calm and kept us looking deeper below the surface. Your suggestions, encouragements, and acknowledgements provided positive outlets and alternative solutions to a very frustrated person in a very frustrating situation. Your intellectual curiosity kept us pushing for more: more honesty, more transparency, more understanding, more self-examining, and more progress.

Difficult situations will always be present in any given stages of our lives; we all have to learn to deal with them one way or another. Thanks to you and your attitude, this discussion has become a positive learning experience for Dan, and anyone participating in it or reading through it. I really, really appreciate it.

In many ways, you are the engine that keeps the CD forum running. Thank you so much for your message. I cannot repeat that enough.

5 posts expressing support toward the original post
8 posts questioning the effectiveness of the original post

I understand where many of you are coming from. I understand your wishes to defend your friend, and the integrity of this forum. In the end your heart is in the right place, but to some I wish you are more understanding, helpful, and willingness to address the needs of who seems like a very frustrated person. To others, I wish there is more tact, more grace, and more appreciation toward the art of communication and conflict resolution.

In the end, I favor resolving conflicts with charm, humility, and understanding, and disarming obstacles with guile, humor, and smile, over declarations and confrontations. I hope you do too.

6 posts expressing serious reservations toward volunteer organization as a whole, toward changes in the Chief Delphi Forum, and toward the growth of FIRST in general.
8 posts defending changes in all three areas.

Leadership is demonstrated by initiative, examples, and spirit. Decisions are made by those who show up. The world is whatever you make of it.

I hear your frustrations; I understand where they are coming from. But this is a changing world, and the world is changing faster by the minute. Don’t just sit idly by watching everything disappear; take it upon yourself to remember exactly what was good in the past, and work hard to incorporate it into the future. If you want to see something continue, you have to work really hard for it yourself.

The good news is, there is no limit to what a small group of well intentioned folks can do to create and facilitate changes in this world. So instead of talking about the good old past, I want to see planning for the future. Just like the 8 posts defending changes, right?


I am stretching the limit of what’s a reasonable amount to read in one sitting, so I will try to wrap it up. I want to write a personal message to Dan, but I am afraid it will have to wait until another evening. Here are the main questions I want to ask:

Where do we go from here? How are we going to turn this difficult, controversial discussion into a positive learning experience for everyone involved? How are we going to move on and create progress?

In addition:

There is no doubt there is much to be desired from the way FIRST organizes its volunteers. There is no doubt about it. So how are we going to discover, address, examine these issues in a healthy manner, and how are we going produce progress afterward?

There is no doubt there is a growing pain in FIRST. Again, there is no doubt about it. So when are we going to identify some of the positive aspects from the past, and begin incorporating them into the future?

There is also no doubt we need to work on our communication, communication on all levels, between volunteer and volunteer, between volunteer and regional coordinator, between region and headquarter, between headquarter and individuals. How can we improve communication on all levels?

And finally, how do we improve our ability to provide support to those who need them the most? How do we discover problems and provide support early, so we don’t have to resolve conflicts at this level of disagreement? And once we get to this level of disagreement, how do we handle it with charm, humility, and understanding; guile, humor, and smiles?


Dan, I have a lot to say to you, but I seem to have ran out of time this evening. For now, I will echo Ken Patton had to say to you earlier:

I tell my kids everyday, whether in Lego classes or during FLL competitions, that we should work really hard to make it a positive experience for everybody, and not just yourself.

Woodie talks to us year after year about the importance of Gracious Professionalism, not just from other people, but also from yourself.

FIRST gave us the mission to inspire innovation, self-confidence, communication, and leadership in young people.

Robotics is about people. It always was, it always will be. What more guidelines do we need?

-Ken Leung

P.S. Thank you to the mentors who continue to show true quality, inspiration, and leadership through out the discussion. You continue to inspire me everyday. You know who you are.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

After that post by Ken Leung, anything I write is bound to look obtuse and boring in comparison; then again, that could be said when comparing any of my posts to Ken’s ...;)

I don’t post much anymore because often by the time I get around to typing what I feel needs to be said, two or three people have already done so. It seems the opposite has happened in this thread. Amid all the rhetoric and attitude, it appears (to me, at least) that little discussion has occurred about the original claim.

Putting aside how one feels about Dan Swando, or his communicative style, there still remains his allegation of a secret black list of Michigan Volunteers. I suppose one’s response to this would be dependent on the perceived veracity of his assertion, or your feelings in favor or against said black list, but they would still be directed toward he claim.

After a letter requesting transparency was sent to FIRST a couple months back on behalf of FIRST teams, one would think that the idea of a secret volunteer black list would receive more attention than the title of the thread, no matter how inappropriate.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

That seems a tad harsh. While I agree that Dan saying he was forced into this is a bit of a stretch I wouldn't say that this implies a sense of entitlement. I think that the main focus of Dan's irritation (and Dan correct me if I'm wrong) is not the idea that he isn't getting the job he wants, but that there is no reason given as to why.

I'll try another analogy. Think of Dan's scenario like someone getting back an English paper that is marked at a B, but with no comments written in by the teacher. Is the grade acceptable, sure, and I know that many would be very happy with it, under normal circumstances. With no remarks from the teacher however, it is easy to believe one would be rather indignant. How is one to understand or rectify his errors if he is not made aware of them? Additionally, if the teacher would then refuse to explain the grade after coming to her, would you indignation not increase further?

If you make the appropriate substitutions this can be used to understand Dan's scenario. Does the student in the above analogy possess a feeling of entitlement? Actually yes, not for a certain grade though, but merely for a reason behind the less than optimal turn of events. It is an expectation shared by almost everyone. Whenever something happens, be it in a science experiment, or in a relationship, or a disaster the inevitable things sought most isn't for the damage to disappear (we all accept that that won't happen), but for a reason so that we might grow from the experience

My $0.02

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I can almost side with both groups here.

I would agree that there is probably a good reason to keep certain people out of certain volunteer positions due to previous mistakes at those positions or similar ones. However, taking Dan's story at face value, he wasn't asking for a volunteer position that he'd had perceived trouble with in that past. In fact, he was asking for one that he was well-qualified for. He was given an alternate position, because the one he asked for was full. Then, at the last minute, he was told that his position was changed after he asked about a change that had been made without his knowledge. To me, if you change something, you tell the people that are affected right away. Don't make them ask you/find out at the last second; they tend to get rather annoyed. Trust me on this; I have some recent experience with this.

However, I do not agree with keeping the reason for the blacklist a secret when you've been asked by someone on the blacklist why he or she is on there. People can't read each others' minds very well. You tell them flatly that they are on because of X, they have a chance to explain X. Whether or not they do it to your satisfaction, you've had a chance to hear their side.

And, quite frankly, to restrict someone's volunteering to one and only one position is laughable. (Again, I'm taking Dan's statements at face value.) Where can you have no influence on a match? Safety assistant, Spare Parts attendant, Pit admin, gofer, awards assistant... Confining someone to a position that requires them to admit biases--well, if he wasn't biased before, he most likely is now!

(Caution: some speculation in the following, due to not knowing the full story) On the other hand, to look at it from the MI board's perspective: A ref made two mistakes against the same team, leading to their loss (perception). Naturally, you wouldn't want that ref reffing you again if you could avoid it. So you ask your VCs to keep him out of certain spots. A VC puts him in a more important spot. You don't want him there, because of your perception, so you have the VC move him behind his back. He asks questions. Later, you tell him to his face that he can't do a job that he's qualified for because you have someone else. Now he's asking you: "Why am I not allowed to volunteer at anything that I would like to do?" You choose not to answer, for whatever reason. He asks again. Again you don't answer. The next thing you know, he's sent the letter to FRC HQ. It isn't public knowledge, yet, but it could become public. [/speculation portion] And then he goes public, some time later. That's about the last straw.

Dan, by going public, you may have burned your last bridge with FiM. But if they did, in fact, tell you not to bother them, then they gave the tinder.


From what has been posted, I think that this type of blacklist is a very bad thing for FiM, and FRC if it is used elsewhere.
1) It's not gracious. I don't object to a blacklist, but at least tell people WHY they're on it if they ask!
2) No comment on professionalism; it could go either way.
3) It's too broad or too narrow in scope; that is, blocking out all positions except one is a bad idea. At least give a range, or block out ALL positions.
4) If, as is suggested, one team is behind this and able to impose a full ban, that is a bad thing. Just tell the head ref or appropriate official that you don't think that this guy can call you fairly, for crying out loud! That's enough to minimize the impact of any blown calls right there, most of the time.

Both sides are at fault; the FiM board for not being open enough to tell someone where they messed up and Dan for going public. That's the way it is in this case, I'm afraid. Like most anecdotes, you only get one side.


To fix this: If there are any FiM board members here, it would be a good idea to have a civil get-together with Dan, either by phone or by email or something of that sort if in-person meetings are impractical. Heck, make it a social event and go bowling or whatever Michiganders do during the winter. Figure out why he's on the blacklist, and tell him. That's half the issue, as it gives him a chance to explain and shape up, if he chooses. If you're blocking others out, tell them why as well. FIRST HQ is opening up a bit. Is there a reason FiM can't do the same when requested?

The other half of the issue is that it's given both of the affected parties a black eye. That one is the impossible half to fix without a lot of time and short memories.

I'm not saying that you completely ditch the blacklist. But, blocking people from one or two positions for cause is completely different from blocking people from most of the positions for something done in one position that may or may not be their fault.


Mr. Pockets, if that scenario happened at my school, I'd probably head for the department chair or the Dean of Students to see about the process for filing a complaint of not grading on academics but on personal prejudice. Dan went that route, because the FiM board has at least some oversight from FRC HQ.

Dan, if you're still in CA in March, I'm pretty sure you'll be welcome at the L.A. Regional.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Qualified? Unqualified?....does it make a huge difference really? I've seen people do great work on their first day volunteering.

Moreover you are viewing this from an incredibly negative perspective. This is an opportunity, to focus on everything else in life. FIRST is something you do, not who you are. Don't try to define yourself through the rigors of FIRST. Who cares if 15 ppl in people in FiM don't like you, oh well, their loss of a qualified person.

Focus on your team, your students, this is not a bad thing but a point to step back and learn. Ask yourself how could you avoid this situation in the future. Maybe some of the 'bullying' is actually how some people are trying to help you see what they see when they look at your performance.

You gotta see this is a great opportunity, you didn't lose a job, money or anything really; nothing got hurt but your pride which I understand is frustrating. It is obvious you are generally hurt by all of this and seem a little sensitive which is understandable but you need to view the larger perspective.

Who would dare tell you directly that they question your abilities when you lash out publicly like this? Good Luck to you, I wish you the best.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Your post makes me question whether you read the OP's statement carefully. If you look more closely, you will see that he has sat on this issue for a while. Specifically, he sent a letter "target individuals on 16 August, 2009" and the date of posting is November 28th. In other words, he's been trying to gain traction on the issue for months now with no luck.

I really can't comment on the story as I have no way of confirming anything, but if you take the basic facts of what Dan has said at face value - and if you don't, why would you even bother posting - he is not doing this just for his self-interest. He lists quite a few other people who are blacklisted, including a WFA winner. Again, I have no way of knowing if this is accurate, but it's not just about Dan - as he tells it anyway.

(Dan, I'm not trying to cast aspersions on your character - just that as many people have said, there can be two sides to any story and without knowing both, it would be jumping to conclusions to side with anyone. And that's how Milo got in trouble.)

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I think you missed my overall point, who cares? Let them have their little fiefdom. There are a lot of other opportunities out there.

I can see why you do not understand why I bothered to post because it is obvious you missed the essence of my message. I am not analyzing that issue because you are correct I do not have all the facts. So whether the blacklist exists or doesn't, whether a WFA winner is on it or not, whether he volunteered as a MC, a Ref, or anything else is pointless to me.

My point is bigger than that. The inability of some to brush things off and move forward in a positive constructive way is disturbing to me. People need to be able to move forward whether they got what they wanted or not (myself included).

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Understood, and too a point I'll agree with you. Being able to look beyond past issues is very important. However taking that optimism too far, and being unwilling to argue against something you believe to be wrong is also an undesirable extreme.

Keep in mind that the scenario being expressed by Dan affects more people than just him. As such, is it really a lack of ability to cope with a personal disappointment on his part, or more of a push to right something he considers a wide spread injustice. Dan alone knows the answer to that, but it's still something that people should consider.

$0.02

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Pockets on this. While the ability to brush things off and get on with life is a wonderful thing. There are times when it either isn't necessary and/or not very easily done.

In the scenario described by Mr. Swando, it does indeed affect more than one individual. And when a situation is effecting more than one it becomes harder to brush off, and less necessary. Enron for example.* Yet no one told them to brush it off. In Mr. Swando's case. I do not feel that he needs to get over it. Though in a sense, he already has.

-Rion

* I know it is a poor example. But I think you get my point.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

This represents my personal opinion, and only that.

One of the major guiding principles of FiM has been that the team is the customer and it is their experience that is paramount. Whether the staff is volunteer or not, teams are paying not only in money, but also through hard work, endless hours and emotions spent over the course of the season and they deserve the best possible event experience.

To that end a list of the positions at an event that have the biggest impact on the event experience were identified and labeled as key volunteer positions. The staffing of these positions was opened up to a larger group for discussion. When an individual’s qualifications were unknown additional information was sought from people who better knew the individual. This process would seem less disposed to abuse than an individual making the decisions alone.

FiM is not a gang of malicious, self interested, power hungry people. It is, much like the rest of the FIRST world, filled with people who are passionate about this program and who are working extremely hard to further its success. Certainly mistakes are made, and these mistakes should and will be, addressed. Yet there is no reason, however great the temptation, to demonize the other side and assume they are operating with nefarious goals.

I’m sorry you had a bad experience trying to secure the volunteer position you wanted, but staffing decisions were not based on personal bias against any individual. There is no black list and, as fun an idea as it might be, there is no conspiracy.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Therein lies the issue. Dan's qualifications are known in MI, especially given that list he gave of his experience. Therefore, the FiM board would have known about them. They chose to do the following, if you take Dan's statements at face value:

1) Choose not to put him in a position he was qualified for, and volunteered for, instead offering him another.

--If there was another qualified individual, this is not an issue.

2) For no apparent reason, and more importantly without telling him, change the second assignment to another one.

--This is and isn't an issue. It isn't if there was a more qualified individual. It is because they didn't tell him when the change was made. FTA involves travel to New Hampshire in February. That's going to cost you, especially if you have to cancel it in mid-late January.

3) When he requested a reason for 2) above, tell him nothing. And, when requested by a VC to do a job he was qualified for, an FiM board member said they had someone, apparently rather rudely.

--If you do have someone, fine. But at least be gracious.

4) After further requests for reasons, tell nothing.

--I don't know about you, but if I am qualified for a position and I don't get it, for no reason specified, I'm going to be confused and hurt. I don't care if the reason is the generic rejection letter that "we're going with someone else". ANY reason is better than none.

5) After a letter is sent to FRC HQ, and various others in MI, repeat 4).

6) Allow said individual to volunteer again, but fail to contact regarding position when it can be a fairly vital one, even to say, "No, thanks."

--Again, even letting him know that you don't want him in that position is better than nothing.

7) After the letter in 5) is made public, effectively tell the individual to get out of there.

--This is the only one that I can understand. Sometimes, if you can't solve a problem and others are getting wind of it, and it's that bad of an issue, you sometimes have to agree to disagree, which can involve one or more leaving, under their own power or not.

In short, FiM made one comparatively small mistake--not telling the volunteer that there had been a change. They compounded it by not responding with even a dummy reason that he wasn't told, and becoming somewhat ungracious. As I said before, if they'd just talk with Dan about the reason, a lot of issues could be solved.


By the way, I would be interested in hearing the other side of the story, if it is deemed appropriate by the FiM board to release it. I like to try to get both sides of any given story, if it's involving accusations, direct or indirect, and if both sides post it publicly.


Remember when the FiM idea was first released? Then and later, during the assessment of the first year, several people brought up that they didn't really have anything against it, except the secrecy that had shrouded the starting*. When you have something that you'd expect to be somewhat open be kind of secretive, it raises questions. Questions want answers. In fact, FRC was asked to be a little more open not too long ago, and about 4 of the mentors to sign the letter are from MI teams. Perhaps that same letter should be sent to the FiM board.

*The point system was also brought up, but that isn't relevant here.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. TIME FOR A PEACE TREATY
 

I’m trying to get my head around what is the 'question zero'.

There are lot of topics in this thread but it seems there 2 basic issues. I suppose that makes it question zero and question one. 1st are the personal ones regarding the alleged blacklisted folks and the FiM. 2nd are the institutional definitions of who does what, the care and feeding of FIRST employees, volunteers, and other participants.

There are some basic truisms in this world.

1) If you are a volunteer, expect no gratitude or recognition because on average you will likely not get it from those you most expect it from. Corollary: a person with a sense of entitlement is a disaster.

2) If you have volunteers serving you or your organization then make sure and thank them because without their help nothing would happen and your efforts would fail. Corollary: a manager with an unfound sense of power and authority is another disaster.

3) If you are in conflict with a person or organization you can fix it, leave it, or tolerate it. Your choice. Don and Sancho rides again.

4) If you are a customer and cannot get a phone call returned or a questioned answered then it is likely to anger you even though the delay may be valid. Face to face meetings are much better when possible. Impersonal phone and email communication don't help the situation. Ask any sales representative.

5) The world did not end with this posting. The only question is where this goes next. If each side digs in and takes a take no prisoners / winner take all stances then everyone loses. If each side can step back and inhale and come to terms then we can all more forward, correct the root cause and put this behind us.

A personal note:

This is my 5th year of this madness called FIRST. I’ve come to develop my own inner sense of what I would like to accomplish as a mentor and a pretty fair idea of how that success is defined.

My interests and the interests of FIRST have aligned like a compass. If for whatever reason these interests diverge I have already ‘pre-settled’ the issue. That is one of the advantages of being very old, experienced, and opinionated. I may be right or wrong but I’ll be happily senile doing it.

Winning medals and awards, being on TV or in a magazine while cool doesn’t even begin to compare to the relationships I’ve developed working with a bunch of great students. Helping these kids get along is where the rewards really exist. It makes all the silly petty stuff the adults do pale into insignificance.

That still doesn’t mean the adult personality and organizational problem doesn’t need solving.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

As much as I'm flattered that the DJ is now considered a "key position," considering how much of an afterthought he usually is to the competition scene, the fact is that the timeline is in direct contradiction with the above rationalization, which brings up much more damaging questions than it answers. I'm also astonished at the number of replies that seem to be written without reading the O.P. at all.

To repeat the timeline, with dtk's input added:

• September: VIMS preferences updated
• ?Sept-Dec?: DJ named key volunteer position, Dan declared one of many veteran volunteers unfit to volunteer in new system
• Early-January: In lew of DJing, Dan offered FTA position. Dan reluctantly accepts
• Mid-January: Dan discovers physically unable to referee 2008 game.
• Late-January: Dan follows up, apparently still being considered for FTA
• Later-January: FiM board interferes with Volunteer process
• Early Feb: Dan WTF's Volunteer Coordinators
• Late Feb: Dan goes backdoor to district VC's and slips into FiM banned "key position" robot inspector
• Early March: Dan WTF's FiM board members - board members clueless
• Early March: Detroit District asks radio DJs with no FIRST experience to be MC. Unsure when they were vetted by FiM board members
• Mid March: Troy District Announcer asks Dan to fill in for him
• Mid March: FiM board interferes with Volunteer process
• Mid March: Hoping to avoid a scene, Dan abdicates to another skilled announcer
• April: Dan asked to assist Volunteer Coordinator for Michigan. Dan reluctantly accepts, on condition that FIRST HQ will be notified of events. VC agrees
• August: Dan finally sends letter to FIRST HQ
• September: Conversation with Dennis Howland. Offers to set up meeting with FiM to bury hatchet, discuss past and future involvement of Dan in FIRST. Dan eagerly agrees
• Thanksgiving: FiM Board tells VC to tell Dan to tell Dennis "no deal." FiM screws with wrong volunteer for the last time.

No, a mistake is forgetting to get lunches for volunteers at Cass Tech. This was a deliberate action to keep qualified volunteers from doing their job. Clearly I was willing to do whatever was asked of me - I clearly have no sense of entitlement. I do, however, expect a certain level of respect that I've come to know in the Real FIRST community - respect of my time, of my commitment. Volunteer Coordinators who pass along information, not obfuscate it. And a secret system of "qualifications" for "key positions" is the DEFINITION of a conspiracy!

Saying that FiM is full of power-hungry people is a generalization straw man; I referred to a few unknown bad eggs corrupting the entire group's function. And FiM according to dtk's interpretation is completely different from how the real FIRST organization works. In the real FIRST organization, the Volunteer Coordinator has the final say on volunteer positions. You won't have Dave Lavery or Paul Gudonis telling a VC who can or can't be a volunteer (Though their input is certainly welcome, I'm sure), barring some horrible snafu or event-changing actions. I say, let the volunteers volunteer and let the teams play. If someone better can do a job, let them! Don't say that someone can't do a job, especially one that they've already been doing fine for a number of years, just because you don't like the way that they looked at you or whatever.

I've clearly tolerated it for far too long, I'm now trying to change it. If that fails, you better believe I will leave it.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

I closed this because the discussion is no longer addressing the core issue.

Re: I Kept Quiet for far too long. This. Is. WAR!!!
 

Dear Dan,
I temporarily opened this thread so I could comment, then I plan to close it again.
I have been following this thread closely in case it had gotten out of hand. I commend everyone for making sure not to turn this into a flame war. For the most part, the arguing has been minimized, and it has been up long enough for anyone that was interested in posting, to do so.
The way I see it is, that you have posted information relative to the way you personally were treated while attempting to volunteer for FiM events. I will take your word that the events and results are as you have posted, since no one has disputed them – that has first hand knowledge. (In other words, one of the parties involved in the way things occurred).
Your message has been clearly conveyed, and is still available for anyone to read.
As a reminder, this website was created many years ago with the intent that everyone would be able to share information openly. Sometimes issues have created a stir and the moderators have addressed violations in web posting rules and web behavior. This website is not meant to be a battleground - (not that you intended for it to be, as I can’t determine intent for doing so – except for “this is war” in the title)
Again, thanks everyone that posted for remaining cool and even offering good suggestions to Dan.
Your message, and the information related to your experience is important for others to know about. Particularly, anyone that may be interested in volunteering for a FiM event.
Hopefully, folks located outside of Michigan will take this experience and use it as a lessons learned. There is a lot to be learned for everyone involved in coordinating the volunteer effort that is essential in making any FIRST event run smoothly.
Now that you have clearly communicated your feelings, I would hope that you would focus your attention on finding a positive uplifting end result for any future volunteer efforts that you pursue.
Thank you for all of your past efforts to share the FIRST experience, from being a student to mentoring, to volunteering, to posting on the CD website.
I am sorry that you were treated the way that you were treated.
Good luck to you, in whatever you choose to do, in the future,

Mike Aubry
a voice from the past -
Team 47 forever