Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

It doesn't say that Blue didn't buy one themselves the same year they asked Red to buy one for them.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

Rich -

Don't worry. You have it exactly right.

Let's be very clear here. There are no rules violations. There are no ethics violations.

First off, any rules regarding use of the cRIO for the 2009 FRC competition are now obsolete and irrelevant. Those rules applied only to the 2009 competition, and not to any future events or activities. So even if there were a 2009 season rule against this practice (which there was not), it is no longer in effect and does not matter. The rules for the 2010 season have (obviously) not yet been published. It is intuitively obvious that neither team can be in violation of the 2010 rules. Ergo, there is no rules violation.

So let's move on to the ethics discussion. The arguments presented so far regarding a violation of some mythical ethics standards are based on assumptions, not facts.

The facts are simple: NI will sell one discounted cRIO unit to each team per year. NI will sell multiple full-price cRIO units to each team per year. NI has not made any statement about their specific motivations for these sales options. NI does not include any post-sales restrictions on the use, reuse, resale, or redistribution of purchased cRIO units other than those found in the standard cRIO Terms Of Sale. NI has not publicized any statement of prohibition against a team doing anything they want with their cRIO once they have purchased it.

It is important to note that NI has not said "we are making a special offer available so that each FRC team can obtain exactly one additional cRIO unit per year." Nor have they said "we are making these available so that each team will use the additional cRIO exclusively for their own development purposes." If they had, then we might have additional information to explain the desires and motives behind the offer. But such statements have not been made. Without any such statements, we have NO information to support any judgment. Without an ability to form a judgment, no conclusion about a putative ethics violation can be made.

To date, all the arguments against the ethics of this trade have followed the same basic formula: NI has not offered a particular reason for the discount offer. Lacking a stated reason, someone speculates on a possible rationale. Based on that speculation, they then create a mythic set of ethics to accompany the deal. Finally, they superimpose their (misguided?) ethics on NI and insist that their own ethics be recognized as those of NI.

Unfortunately, all of these arguments have the same fundamental weakness: they are based on speculations unsupported by any available facts. Statements like "The way NI has it set up, it's supposed to be…" are without any basis in fact. As such they are meaningless conjectures, with no more value than the unsupported speculations. Any conclusions drawn from them are equally weak. I don’t know about anyone else, but I am loath to accuse anyone of a violation of any ethical or moral standards based on logic this faulty.

-dave




....

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

Ok Dave, I agree my arguments were made upon assumptions. Without guidance from NI or FIRST, you are correct that everyone who argues against this practice is basing it off of misguided logic due to this lack of guidance. Yet perhaps it's simply logic that would rather error on the side of caution.

It's like the rules each year: they're ambiguous to some, but to others there is only one interpretation that removes all doubt of whether or not something is legal. The GDC then reacts to those who need clarification and attempts to eliminate grey areas. Who knows how NI or the 2010 rules will react to this thread's bipolar arguments. Yet if the end result of this scenario would be NI revoking the discount for all of FRC then we all lose and this whole thread is moot. I'm not sure why a team would even risk that type of result, which is the basis of my argument. That's logical to me.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

My question is, why is this action worthy of an award?

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

Any time that you don't know something for sure, and you're being asked to make a decision that is somewhat based on that unknown thing, you have three choices. 1: Find out that thing. 2: Make assumptions based on what you do know, and hope that they are correct, or that they are incorrect in your favor. 3: Do nothing, which can have other implications. Hence, we made assumptions based on NI being a company offering a 1-per-customer-per-time-unit discount, which leads through another set of logical assumptions.


As for the 2009 rules being obsolete and irrelevant, at this time, we have no indication of the 2010 game and robot rules, which supersede the 2009 game and robot rules. Should FIRST decide to have a competition right now, they would go by the 2009 rules, as those are still in force for about three more weeks, except where the 2010 rules have been released (which is in very few places). The only other option is to have no rules at all. Therefore, the 2009 rules, wherever the 2010 rules have not been released, remain in full effect. There is no violation of the 2009 rules; nobody other than the GDC knows whether or not there would be one in 2010 (and if any GDC member tells before any official announcements, shame on them.)

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

I need a lawyer to understand the original question.:confused:

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

(I actually did locate Prof. Black, so I'm back reading this thread).

Jane,
I'm speculating here entirely, but I think Lucien simply means that, if you vote for that side of the poll, you think this is a good example of coopertition. All award decisions are of course in the hands of the judges.

Dave,
Thanks for the summation.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

Setting aside all ethical issues. I believe that this is not an example of coopertition. Coopertition in MY belief is selfless... and not done for personal/team gain...teams help other teams simply because its the right thing to do without any regard to gaining any advantage.

In this case the BLUE team is gaining an advantage ... getting 3 cRIO's in two years at discounted price... RED team gets "financing" that allows them to purchase a new cRIO quicker than they could themselves.

Nothing wrong with this... but I simply don't consider it an example of Gracious Professionalism... It is simple business cooperation... not coopertition...

Again this is MY belief... and I don't mean to put words in any one else's mouth.

Good luck to everyone this year!!

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

Is a team not allowed to do things for their own gain?

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

I think you're confusing coopertition and GP with charity.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

The argument against Redateam and Bluateam helping each other out seems to be a classic example of "lawyering the rules."

Bottom line is- until there is a rule in writing expressly forbidding trading of control system components, Redateam and Bluateam are free to do whatever they want with their discounted controllers. Speculation otherwise places needless restriction on what teams can do with their money and supplies. It's not the teams' place or responsibility to second guess the reasoning or intention behind donations or discounts, but to be appreciative of the support, and make best use of the parts available. If Redateam's extra controller would sit on the shelf collecting dust for a season, while Bluateam would use it for a practice or learning robot, what's the best use for the part?

It's the choice of each team to do as they wish with their parts, and they're free to do so until an explicitly written rule prohibits it.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

I'm not going to take a side in this matter, I honestly don't care what they do whether it is right or wrong. But it would seem that both sides are doing alot of lawyering and finding loopholes or technicalities to support what they want it to be.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

All, Happy New Year!

Since I'm the troublemaker, I would be remiss if I did not share with the FIRST community my correspondence with NI on this subject.

===== Excerpt of email from me to NI Sales Rep =====
On the subject of discounted cRIOs, does NI have a policy beyond NI's 'Terms and Conditions of Sale' (http://www.ni.com/pdf/legal/us/termsofsale.pdf) concerning what teams may do with the discounted cRIO after they purchase them? I ask because we work with several teams that did not purchase a discounted cRIO in 2009 and we'd like to purchase the discounted cRIOs for them. BUT, if we do purchase them, they will be used in various ways; some will stay with the teams that received the discount but some will go to other teams that desire more cRIOs (damaged cRIO, practice robots, software & sensor development, other robots not related to FIRST, etc.); none will be resold. Please know that I will share your answer with other FIRST community members unless you request that I do not.
##########

===== Response from NI Sales Rep =====
I forwarded your email to the Marketing Manager (Stephanie Brierty) in charge of FIRST. She let me know that it is not possible to purchase a discounted cRIO under a teams name when that team will not be using the cRIO. Teams that would like to purchase one extra cRIO per season for their use may do so at a discount.
##########

From a philosophical standpoint, I am very disappointed with NI's ruling; I would fully agree if NI went as far as to request that the discounted cRIOs only be used for education purposes. From a business standpoint, NI has every right to deny the sale. From a good-will standpoint, not good at all; especially when trying to fill the shoes that IFI left behind.

Batteries are fully charged & ready to go for 2010,
Lucien

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

In other words, this entire discussion is now moot, as the YMTC situation could not happen as written.

Note that there is nothing against Redateam donating their 2010 discounted controller to Bluateam, or vice versa.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Buys Redateam's 2009 Discounted Controller
 

Can you please elaborate on how a discount program for FRC supplies has become a disappointment to you? How do other supplier discount programs work?

As for comparisons to IFI, the article at http://digital.ni.com/worldwide/bwco...25742B00737DF5 explains NIs motivations and involvement. Basically, a donation of lots of cRIOs, SW, support, and development. Additionally, there are two different discount programs directly to teams. I don't know enough about previous suppliers to make comparisons.

If your motivation was to aid other teams, I'm not sure why this focusses on a specific supply item. If your team can loan or grant money to other teams, I suspect some will choose to purchase a cRIO, but others would instead buy tools or pay for hotel rooms. If the motivation is to use up all of the discount coupons before they expire, don't worry about it. They don't go sour like cartons of milk, and I'm sure that a cRIO-FRC model controller will find a good home.

Greg McKaskle