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-   -   [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79453)

Justin Montois 24-12-2009 15:14

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
OK upon looking closer at this, I think we all saw the holes and assumed it was the "adjustable pin and hole" setup. I don't think this is the case. I think the holes you see in the rod is merely an access hole so you can attach the lexan. I think the posts that are sticking out are just stoppers to prevent the lexan assembly from sliding too far.

What does that mean? I have no idea. I still stand by the fact that it seems too small and weak to be a robot interaction element.

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 15:18

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 340x4xLife (Post 890409)
OK upon looking closer at this, I think we all saw the holes and assumed it was the "adjustable pin and hole" setup. I don't think this is the case. I think the holes you see in the rod is merely an access hole so you can attach the lexan. I think the posts that are sticking out are just stoppers to prevent the lexan assembly from sliding too far.

My take on this:
The "access holes" you talk about is for recessing the nut of the bolt, so whatever slides/rolls on the track (yes, I still think it's a track) won't get hit.

Also, I don't believe that the lexan assembly slides on the small tube for the reason that it can't; there are no slots cut in the small tube that would be necessary to clear the bolt attaching the lexan to the big tube.

jamie_1930 24-12-2009 15:18

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallo26 (Post 890298)
It connects to something in the field as the Overpass did in Overdrive. if you look at the smoked lexan, you can see a reflection of a pole (not the two poles visible to us) But a pole with 2 visible pegs. Those could be connections for other pieces? A field element?

Its obviously a render of the field, or more than just this part, they just moved the background plane during the render.

I'll throw stuff out there. I already said a field connection part. So something structural. It could also be an autoloader for some piece. A ball or something, Part, Box, Playing element, that the robots could get at and it would always be filled (by a volunteer!) from 2005.

Thoughts??

I wouldn't bother on looking at the reflection it looks like the part was made on a type of CAD software and thus the reflection you see is most likely a default function. That in this case looks like it's reflecting the upper pole on the part. Although this may vary well be part of an element we will have to score on just like in 2007 the game hint was the diamond plate piece that could be seen on the front of the scoring rack.

Chris is me 24-12-2009 15:19

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I'm going to guess it's an autoloader, tilted on its side, for some game piece. It just looks like the lexan is designed to seat things. Of course, it could also be a goal... but the lexan and bars just make me think of stacking something "tetra like" on it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to read every $@#$@#$@#$@# page of this thread just to see what you guys are all thinking...

gallo26 24-12-2009 15:24

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 890411)
I wouldn't bother on looking at the reflection it looks like the part was made on a type of CAD software and thus the reflection you see is most likely a default function. That in this case looks like it's reflecting the upper pole on the part. Although this may vary well be part of an element we will have to score on just like in 2007 the game hint was the diamond plate piece that could be seen on the front of the scoring rack.


I've tested that, and Inventor wont refract the reflection like that. Its very odd. Because it IS lexan, its clear you can see the upper pole through it. Like i said before, its most likely a cad model of the whole field. They moved the background just below that part to cut anything out.

The reflection most definitely reminds me of the 2007 game hint. If you looked close enough, you could see the spider legs through the inner tube

Justin Montois 24-12-2009 15:27

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 890410)
Also, I don't believe that the lexan assembly slides on the small tube for the reason that it can't; there are no slots cut in the small tube that would be necessary to clear the bolt attaching the lexan to the big tube.

That is a good point. So the question becomes, why even have the larger tube? Why not just attach the lexan to one length of the larger tube...?

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 15:30

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 340x4xLife (Post 890414)
That is a good point. So the question becomes, why even have the larger tube? Why not just attach the lexan to one length of the larger tube...?

Collapsibility for transportation.

BrendanB 24-12-2009 15:33

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MFennig8 (Post 890391)
Hey guys,

Look, yes FIRST is known for its trickery and hints, but maybe we have not looked at it fully. Try turning the picture 90 degrees. It looks like a holder for a game piece that could easily be mounted on the side of the field. I mean yes it is a little farther out. But I looked and thought it would be a trailer hitch again. With how it looked and where you can just roll up to a trailer, hook on, move it around and even dump w.e it is inside the trailer somewhere else. But with the look out of it. I see a high game piece, maybe even an extra bonus piece being placed up there. Or, even the last second bonus area to score. Maybe finally seeing some square game pieces like the Wall of totes in 2001.

I would agree that it could hold something if turned upwards. Maybe they need to be moved from one area on the field, stacked together vertically, and then a game piece is placed in the slot created.


Oh and wall o totes was 2003!

THANK YOU GDC FOR RELEASING A HINT FOR CHRISTMAS!:D

gallo26 24-12-2009 15:33

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I keep going back to this, but in 2008 with the Overpass, FIRST made connectors that would link two ends together, the connector would snap the two together. But the only problem is I don't see any inner connections making the smaller pipe a connector.

Being that it IS lexan... this can't support anything that would be in an extreme force environment. Maybe it's a ball shoot behind the driver station like 2006, but with less jams. I dont know about an auto loader. I thought that, but the lexan + speeding robot = *snap* It must be something robots don't come directly in contact with.

jerry w 24-12-2009 15:36

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallo26 (Post 890413)
I've tested that, and Inventor wont refract the reflection like that. Its very odd. Because it IS lexan, its clear you can see the upper pole through it. Like i said before, its most likely a cad model of the whole field. They moved the background just below that part to cut anything out.

The reflection most definitely reminds me of the 2007 game hint. If you looked close enough, you could see the spider legs through the inner tube

You need to consider that the lexan is not square. It leans slightly. Thus the reflection is the result of the leaning lexan. the balls will roll downhill if the support contains an angle holding the rails.

jmanela 24-12-2009 15:42

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
now here is a question, why is the top shaped the way that it is? Is it pushing or pullng something? It is pretty high compared to the rest of the assembly. and why the hole at the top? would it attach to some sort of backboard like in a basketball net?

It is also shaped like it could hold some sort of cylindrical prism. Remember the coke can from [BB]?
http://frcdirector.blogspot.com/2009...o-do-with.html

Brad Voracek 24-12-2009 15:42

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I've already figured out the entire game from this picture, minus a few small details that I'm just going to extrapolate from previous years.

Starting work on our robot now...

For those of you still working on it: the shadows are important, play with it in photoshop for a few hours... And what JVN said is really important to figuring the game out, just have to do a little research..

Good luck all, this is the most revealing hint FIRST has given yet.

Chris is me 24-12-2009 15:43

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Also worth noting before I leave: What are the four holes in the actual lexan for?

1/4 lexan could probably take a few hits. I heard there's this one team that builds their frame out of it... crazy. Granted, unless there's a "slow down when approaching this item" rule, mandatory bumbers, and / or some other collision mechanism, there's pretty much a 1000% chance these could break in competition if they were an autoloader as we know them. Unless the whole assembly is mounted outside the field so only large arms could hit them...

A quick play with the Hue / Saturation Photoshop sliders got me nothing you wouldn't expect with the reflection. I wouldn't try it.

BrendanB 24-12-2009 15:45

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Voracek (Post 890421)
I've already figured out the entire game from this picture, minus a few small details that I'm just going to extrapolate from previous years.

Starting work on our robot now...

For those of you still working on it: the shadows are important, play with it in photoshop for a few hours... And what JVN said is really important to figuring the game out, just have to do a little research..

Good luck all, this is the most revealing hint FIRST has given yet.

Dude, I'll give you $20 bucks if you PM with the details, I've serviced mad people all day (7-3) I don't need to think about this!

please?
EDIT: or at least send the picture! please?
i doubt you have it figured out!

jmanela 24-12-2009 15:45

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
i know people have been saying that it is too weak for robots to handle, what if it was meant for the human player to push or pull *note the big handle on top

ATannahill 24-12-2009 15:49

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
What if it holds a game piece at the beginning of a match like in 2004.

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 15:53

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry w (Post 890418)
You need to consider that the lexan is not square. It leans slightly. Thus the reflection is the result of the leaning lexan. the balls will roll downhill if the support contains an angle holding the rails.

Intersting idea. But where is the lexan bent? Or is it attached to the tubes non perpendicularly? I can't seem to see either case in the picture.

Brad Voracek 24-12-2009 15:54

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 890423)
Dude, I'll give you $20 bucks if you PM with the details, I've serviced mad people all day (7-3) I don't need to think about this!

please?
EDIT: or at least send the picture! please?
i doubt you have it figured out!

It'll cost you 40 ;)

RoboMaster 24-12-2009 15:55

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I really think that someone should play around with this on the technical side. Photoshop, encryption. Use your 2009 fish hint skills!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry w (Post 890418)
You need to consider that the lexan is not square. It leans slightly. Thus the reflection is the result of the leaning lexan. the balls will roll downhill if the support contains an angle holding the rails.

Could someone explains what this means? I don't see any lean in the lexan... Is it leaning forwards? Or do you just mean the whole part is rotated for a diagonal view?

BrendanB 24-12-2009 15:56

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Voracek (Post 890428)
It'll cost you 40 ;)

Yah, Merry Christmas to you too... $40 my foot!;) hahaha

martinswat1806 24-12-2009 15:57

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I think this years game will be a lot like 2005.
I looks like they cycle the style. the trailers from last year were similar to part of the field in 2004.

Chris is me 24-12-2009 15:58

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboMaster (Post 890429)
I really think that someone should play around with this on the technical side. Photoshop, encryption. Use your 2009 fish hint skills!!

I have been. Playing with the colors results in just the lexan reflecting what's already visible in the picture, and nothing else.

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 15:59

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboMaster (Post 890429)
I really think that someone should play around with this on the technical side. Photoshop, encryption. Use your 2009 fish hint skills!!



Could someone explains what this means? I don't see any lean in the lexan... Is it leaning forwards? Or do you just mean the whole part is rotated for a diagonal view?

He means that the lexan is not perpendicular in relationship to the tubes, or else the reflection on the top "bump" of the lexan wouldn't be at the angle it is at.

ATannahill 24-12-2009 16:03

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Instead of dealing with the image, lets look at the object.

martinswat1806 24-12-2009 16:15

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Maybe they have a series of these stacked on top of each other which are randomly adjusted kind of like the ball placement in 2008.

ebmonon36 24-12-2009 16:17

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
For all of those who think <Admiral Ackbar>It's a track! </Admiral Ackbar>, see this thread to help your case:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=78803

Eric

Tetraman 24-12-2009 16:22

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I'm just posting this cause it came to mind: If there are multiple hints, like two others, I'm sure that they will also be some kind of piture like this, and each of the three pictures of game elements combine together, like a puzzle, to form something.

Because this is the best I've come up with so far, I'm calling this is something the Human Player interacts with, like a slingshot mechanism or "loading dock" object.

jerry w 24-12-2009 16:31

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 890434)
He means that the lexan is not perpendicular in relationship to the tubes, or else the reflection on the top "bump" of the lexan wouldn't be at the angle it is at.

(OK i am the software guy, so i didn't say it right!!)
Yes the tubes are fastened at an angle with respect to the tab on the lexan. When the tab is fastened to a vertical support, the track will have a small tilt. The reflection shows double the actual angle. So it should not be too hard to determine the rolling angle of the track.

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 16:34

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry w (Post 890441)
(OK i am the software guy, so i didn't say it right!!)
Yes the tubes are fastened at an angle with respect to the tab on the lexan. When the tab is fastened to a vertical support, the track will have a small tilt. The reflection shows double the actual angle. So it should not be too hard to determine the rolling angle of the track.

So the angle is really tiny.

Is the lexan not screwed in perpendicular to the tubes? Or is the lexan attached perpendicularly, but the first bend is not perpendicular to the ground? I really can't tell where the bend is occurring (though there obviously has to be one).

What does everyone think?

RoboMaster 24-12-2009 16:34

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ebmonon36 (Post 890438)
For all of those who think <Admiral Ackbar>It's a track! </Admiral Ackbar>, see this thread .....
Eric

Hmm, yes, Dave Lavery's Morse code posts and some people referencing them to trains and train tracks early on..... I still think that's a bit of a stretch. But I do think the hint as a ball track is still a possibility.

viking 24-12-2009 16:36

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
In 2007 was the game hint an actual photograph or was it CAD? I am not finding it my files at home.

My question is....why would they send us a CAD drawing and not a actual photo of the field element?

Taylor 24-12-2009 16:38

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
The 'reflection' in the Lexan is not a reflection at all. It's a refraction of the bar directly behind it. Thus the 30* angle.

I'm still curious, why use Lexan at all? The materials used are as much a hint as the geometry of the pieces. Transparency is needed at that point - could this structure be mounted near the drivers' station? Going with the ball-track idea, perhaps the game pieces are elevated along the drivers' station wall and the teams would need to see through it to see how many objects are there.

-Theory-

The robots' starting configuration is restricted vertically (60 inches); the robots must expand upwards in some way to retrive the game pieces that are located higher than the drivers' heads (7 feet). Throughout the game, the Human Players may replenish the game object track which is mounted along the drivers' station wall. After retrieving the game piece(s) the robots must collapse back down to go under an obstacle to get to the scoring goal, located at the center of the field.
The scoring goal is similar in looks to a disc golf goal, but on a much larger scale, with a device on top that the cameras can detect autonomously. The game objects are alliance-colored (blue and red).

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 16:40

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by viking (Post 890445)
In 2007 was the game hint an actual photograph or was it CAD? I am not finding it my files at home.

My question is....why would they send us a CAD drawing and not a actual photo of the field element?

It was rendered:

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedImage.../2007Clue1.jpg

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 16:41

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor (Post 890446)
The 'reflection' in the lexan is not a reflection at all. It's a refraction of the bar directly behind it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure, it wouldn't physically refract like that.

gallo26 24-12-2009 16:42

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I'm not sure now... I like the track thing. Now if people continued to run with this idea...

That just seems like a LOT of stuff on one field. I dont understand what would be done with the track. Would it be around the perimeter of the field? Up high? Where we get the game elements? Or where we place them? end game? Soo many questions...

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 16:48

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Upon further inspection, I'm actually a little bit confused about the reflecting/refracting thing now.

Reason why I'm pretty sure it's not refracting the bar behind the lexan:
- You can't physically get it to refract like that (and you clearly see the non-refracted version of the bar through the lexan)

Reason why the lexan and bars are perpendicular:
- You can see the reflection of the left "bend" of the lexan, and it's perfectly vertical

Reason why the lexan and bars are NOT perpendicular:
- That weird angled reflection

GGCO 24-12-2009 17:00

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
It looks like the reflection is almost a blue tube. If this is only 1/2 of a larger unit, maybe it fits inside of the game piece? I've attached a REALLY LOUSY photoshopped image of what the other half might look like. Basically, I think that it could fit over the current lexan and be secured by bolts or something - this would explain the holes in the lexan....



Then again, maybe I'm just nuts!

RoboMaster 24-12-2009 17:00

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here's an annotated picture. Compare to the original to see what I am coloring over.

Red: reflection of left side of top tube, which is arrowed red
Blue: image of top right tube seen through the lexan
Purple: reflection of side "tab" (arrowed purple) and related screws (circled in reflection)
Green: reflection of curve
Yellow: unknown

At least, those are my thoughts. I'm having second guesses about the blue annotations, those reflections have a notch in them where there shouldn't be one. (The red has a notch/ledge if you don't know what I mean)

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 17:02

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GGCO (Post 890452)
It looks like the reflection is almost a blue tube.

Are you talking about the 2007 game hint?

TEntwistle 24-12-2009 17:04

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboMaster (Post 890453)
Here's an annotated picture. Compare to the original to see what I am coloring over.

Red: reflection of top left tube, which is arrowed red
Blue: image of top right tube seen through the lexan
Purple: reflection of side "tab" (arrowed purple) and related screws (circled in reflection)
Green: reflection of curve
Yellow: unknown

I agree with this completely. What if the purpose of the hint is just to suggest that we will be working with reflected images? Could there be mirrors on the playing field, or camera-aided vision that is electronically altered to give us a distorted (reflected) image?

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 17:06

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboMaster (Post 890453)
Here's an annotated picture. Compare to the original to see what I am coloring over.

Red: reflection of top left tube, which is arrowed red
Blue: image of top right tube seen through the lexan
Purple: reflection of side "tab" (arrowed purple) and related screws (circled in reflection)
Green: reflection of curve
Yellow: unknown

At least, those are my thoughts. I'm having second guesses about the blue annotations, those reflections have a notch in them where there shouldn't be one. (The red has a notch/ledge if you don't know what I mean)

Thanks that clears it up a lot.
But I think the purple circles you have are more related to the "reflected red" than the purple. And I still don't get how it's reflecting. If the purple is vertical, it means the lexan is not bent. Yet it has to be bent for the reflected red to be angled.

Also, I think the "unknown yellow" is the real reflection of the top left tube, making it the red that's unkown.
See this post http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=77

FIRSTtm134 24-12-2009 17:09

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I think it is similar to the 2007 game where you had to stack swim tubes. maybe you have to stack something on a series of these attached to some sort of rack. I dont think it will be a center piece like in 2007 but maybe 2 per alliance? something small, maybe raised off the ground about 2 ft rising up to 5 ft? just throwing it out there.

Bomberofdoom 24-12-2009 17:09

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Foster (Post 890297)
It's a set of support parts that telescope.

And with the reflections it's not on water its ON ICE!!

It's an ICE ski support with the rest of the ski to be attached.

WE ARE ON THE ICE! Woo roboteers, start your skate machines!

First one to mention it, so I kudos him for having the same thought as I have. :D
Now to look through the rest of the posts...:ahh:

GGCO 24-12-2009 17:11

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 890455)
Are you talking about the 2007 game hint?

Nope - this year's clue.

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 17:12

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GGCO (Post 890461)
Nope - this year's clue.

Oh I get what you're talking about now. Yeah, theres an odd tint of blue to the reflection...

GGCO 24-12-2009 17:12

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomberofdoom (Post 890460)
First one to mention it, so I kudos him for having the same thought as I have. :D
Now to look through the rest of the posts...:ahh:

Vancouver Olympics theme anyone?

FIRSTtm134 24-12-2009 17:16

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Lets just hope its not the speed skating even where we go in circles like in 2008 XD

RoboMaster 24-12-2009 17:17

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 890462)
Oh I get what you're talking about now. Yeah, theres an odd tint of blue to the reflection...

That is interesting. Only what is being reflected that is blue? It's the background, which I take to be another CAD software fault. Just like how the lexan is yellowish.

gallo26 24-12-2009 17:22

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboMaster (Post 890466)
That is interesting. Only what is being reflected that is blue? It's the background, which I take to be another CAD software fault. Just like how the lexan is yellowish.

Well I'm not too sure it' blue. I think thats just what the reflection looks like in the lexan. Its smoked lexan, which looks like a funny yellow when rendered. It could be a pole of any color for support, or interaction. It could even be a really large pole, but really far away from this piece making the reflection tiny.

Joe Schornak 24-12-2009 17:24

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
After careful examination of the object, I have concluded that it is, in fact, a track. [Insert Admiral Ackbar Here]

The little nubby-things towards the ends of the pipes will lock into a larger rail assembly. The small angle of the Lexan and the rounded cut in the top edge of the piece allow balls to roll along it,

Beyond this point, there are two possible functions of the object within the track assembly:

1. It's a support for the track. The transparent material is not, in fact, Lexan, but a solid-state transparent titanium alloy, allowing the delicate-looking support to withstand the high stress of any gameplay.

2. More likely, the Lexan serves as a mounting point for some sort of ball-counting sensor. This would allow accurate real-time scoring of large numbers of balls. It could include a color sensor, in which case the balls are multi-colored and worth different values for each color.

I envision a track system mounted above the driver stations on each end of the field (assuming normal field shape) or on the sides where the payload special1sts were in 2009. Balls start at some central point in the field, and must be collected by the robots and placed or shot into some sort of recepticle, whereupon they fall onto the track and roll past the ball counter into a return device. Balls are worth different point values depending on their color, and perhaps begin in different places based on their color, with the high-value ones the most difficult to collect.

Of course, this is probably all wrong, and the object will be used as some sort of judging device in the pits. FIRST would do that, just to spite us.

More to come after further thought.

GGCO 24-12-2009 17:28

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Schornak (Post 890469)
Of course, this is probably all wrong, and the object will be used as some sort of judging device in the pits. FIRST would do that, just to spite us.

That would be VERY funny, but I also do think that if it's a part of the field then it will be by the driver's stations. Maybe the human players feed balls into the track, and there is some kind of shooting mechanism firing the balls across the field - what if the robots have to catch the balls in mid air for an extra bonus! WOW! Now THAT is unrealistic!

Karibou 24-12-2009 17:33

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Question - does anyone have proof that those poles aren't 39 and a half feet long? ;)


Sorry, I couldn't resist...

kgzak 24-12-2009 17:34

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Idea 1.
It will be used to hold the game pieces at the beginning of the match and the robots will have to connect to the two pins in order to get the game piece.

Idea 2.
It will be a track at each side of the filed on an angle that causes the balls to roll to each end of the field. Again used as a start of game game piece holder, or scoring rack.

Idea 3.
This is not used in the game at all but rather what the idea the piece is demonstrating is the theme of the game. Like if it is elevator like the game is based on raising/lowering objects.

I'm probably wrong but thats all I've got for now.

gallo26 24-12-2009 17:37

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
This whole thing could be an experiment. The GDC probably took bets on how many posts they could get off of a random CAD render, and bonus points for how many people go insane from thinking about it! :yikes:

I'm going to pay close attention to Dean during his long kickoff speech. in 2008 He continued to say Overdrive, claiming it wasn't a hint, yet it was. Anything could be a hint now... hmmm... the paranoia sets in. Mark down 1 for insane...

RoboMaster 24-12-2009 17:53

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Yeah, last year he said "slippery slope" and that was a definite biggie. Now we know. Does he do that a lot? I've only been around for 2 years, I wouldn't know past 2008.

One thing to think about is whether or not those nubs on the ends are actually push-in-spring-loaded-pins that attach to holes. They might just be latching tabs. Actually I think someone mentioned this already, with a reference to some hospital device. Like with an L shape where you slide it in and then turn. Or maybe something else?

lbarger 24-12-2009 18:03

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallo26 (Post 890379)
I spent a few minutes trying to recreate this in Inventor. I completely guessed on a lot of the stuff, so it looks different from the original model, but I think the CAD renders will display some things. I apologize if my post seems huge because of the picture size


Good work Gallo26. Try making the sheet piece (Lexan?) not perpendicular to the rods. So that if the bracket were vertical, the rods would be sloped. I think this might yield the reflection seen.

RobertG 24-12-2009 18:10

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
This is not a game element. It is a model of part of the field. We will have a large divider in the middle of the field with a low opening and holes to pass game pieces to the other side. My reasoning is based on the "all is not as it appears" hint, my personal experience of the difficulty of bending polycarbonate, and the resemblance of the poles to the fence along previous year's fields. Also, I think this is just a representation of the middle middle of the field since there appears to be a reflection of another pole in front of a blue background.

Justin Montois 24-12-2009 18:13

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Schornak (Post 890469)

2. More likely, the Lexan serves as a mounting point for some sort of ball-counting sensor. This would allow accurate real-time scoring of large numbers of balls. It could include a color sensor, in which case the balls are multi-colored and worth different values for each color.

I envision a track system mounted above the driver stations on each end of the field (assuming normal field shape) or on the sides where the payload special1sts were in 2009. Balls start at some central point in the field, and must be collected by the robots and placed or shot into some sort of recepticle, whereupon they fall onto the track and roll past the ball counter into a return device. Balls are worth different point values depending on their color, and perhaps begin in different places based on their color, with the high-value ones the most difficult to collect.

Reading this made me think of this...



Multi-colored balls? Different point value?

Snooker anyone?



I FIRST field does resemble a billiard table...

Greg Needel 24-12-2009 18:14

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
So I got a little bored while watching National Lampoon's Christmas vacation and drew up my version of this in CAD so we could look at it from other views. maybe this will help out deciphering this clue.











Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 18:14

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lbarger (Post 890482)
Good work Gallo26. Try making the sheet piece (Lexan?) not perpendicular to the rods. So that if the bracket were vertical, the rods would be sloped. I think this might yield the reflection seen.

See this post for color references:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=138

But wouldn't the purple line not be parallel to the edge the purple arrow is pointing to if the lexan was not perpendicular?

Or are they not parallel? The reflected angle is double the actual bent angle, so maybe, since there would only need to be a tiny bit of deflection from vertical?

I'll zoom way in on it in photoshop, and see how "vertical" the purple things actually are.

Update: They're very vertical.

gallo26 24-12-2009 18:14

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertG (Post 890483)
This is not a game element. It is a model of part of the field. We will have a large divider in the middle of the field with a low opening and holes to pass game pieces to the other side. My reasoning is based on the "all is not as it appears" hint, my personal experience of the difficulty of bending polycarbonate, and the resemblance of the poles to the fence along previous year's fields. Also, I think this is just a representation of the middle middle of the field since there appears to be a reflection of another pole in front of a blue background.

That makes a lot of sense! They just made everything else invisible in the render except for that blue image and that other pole. It connects to something, and because those poles visible are symmetrical, it's most likely the middle. Nice reasoning!

MrForbes 24-12-2009 18:25

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Needel (Post 890485)
So I got a little bored while watching National Lampoon's Christmas vacation

I had that very problem a few nights ago, but I didn't do anything, I just sat there and stayed bored.

R.C. 24-12-2009 18:32

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I also believe its just a part of the field and I feel it may just be a place to put the actual game piece on.

-RC

MrForbes 24-12-2009 18:33

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
More likely just a bracket that another part of the field goes on.

kgzak 24-12-2009 18:37

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
after viewing 340x4xLife's post I think that they put some type of mechanism to return the balls to one spot, or recycle the balls to field. This would require high goals in order for the mechanism to work (gravity) = Idea 4.

lbarger 24-12-2009 18:39

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 890486)
But wouldn't the purple line not be parallel to the edge the purple arrow is pointing to if the lexan was not perpendicular?

This may mean the bracket (I refuse to call it Lexan based on the image alone) is itself square. If the mounting holes are offset slightly in the vertical direction, the angled reflection of the tubes could be generated while keeping the bracket reflection square. The vertical edge of the bracket and its own reflection could simply be the choice of viewing angles.

pandamonium 24-12-2009 18:41

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanddrag (Post 890375)
My prediction is that this is a robot piece, that will be included in every kit, and that JVN oversaw the manufacturing of :D . It will be mounted high on the robot, and hangars (not pictuered) will be affixed to the pipes on either side. As in last year, the goal is the opponent robot. You will have to hook rings over these hangars (much like 07). At the end of the match, the quick release pins permit quick removal of the rings from the robots, and installation of the hangars onto the next teams' robots. There will be two special color rings that if a robot gets hooked with, voids the tally of the rings it is holding.

Oh, and bumpers will be mandatory, and the floor may not be carpet.

That's what I gather from this.

Originally I was convinced it was a track for a ball in particularly a soccer ball or ball of similar size. The difference in tube thickness got me thinking. Perhaps the distance between the nob and the big pipe is the perfect distance for X rings. I think this guy is on to something. If you look close at the pins coming out near the ends they have smaller pins which would lock them into place. Perhaps they are NOT spring loaded but they hold rings from falling off kinda like that annoying black plastic thing in 07. I do not think they are on the robot because it would be red or blue colored. I think the lexan mounts with the lexan on the driver station wall. Human players probably wouldn't throw rings so they might feed them onto the robot some how. Anyone good at ring toss?

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 18:43

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lbarger (Post 890493)
This may mean the bracket (I refuse to call it Lexan based on the image alone) is itself square. If the mounting holes are offset slightly in the vertical direction, the angled reflection of the tubes could be generated while keeping the bracket reflection square. The vertical edge of the bracket and its own reflection could simply be the choice of viewing angles.

OF COURSE!!!

Dang, I can't believe I missed that lol. Does it seem like it's not bolted perpendicularly? Can't tell from the pic...

EDIT: Well the bars and the top of the bent piece of the bracket are parallel, so that means they're perpendicular...

TEntwistle 24-12-2009 18:47

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Never mind, I can't upload my image - too big of a file

gallo26 24-12-2009 19:24

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Needel (Post 890485)
So I got a little bored while watching National Lampoon's Christmas vacation and drew up my version of this in CAD so we could look at it from other views. maybe this will help out deciphering this clue.

Greg, I made a CAD model too, and yours looks WAY better and more accurate to the picture than mine did. What dimensions did you use? For everything. The lexan width from inside to inside. The arc diameter. I really like your model

Wayne TenBrink 24-12-2009 19:32

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
It looks like a support for parallel bars (rails) that balls could roll on. The shallow slope (see below) would require a low rolling coefficient of friction in order to be gravity driven. It would require a ball of a particular size that was quite hard and smooth. Something similar to a moon rock or even the 2006 foam ball wouldn't roll on something this shallow. It would take something like a basketball or (I shudder to think!!) a bowling ball.

Quarter-inch lexan would be tough enough to handle the sort of contact you get in an overhead structure. It doesn't appear strong enough to take the impact of a 120 lb robot at full speed.

BUT - This is too easy. I doubt the GDC would release a clue that identified the size, shape, and "texture" of the game piece. I suspect trickery! It may be a field element, but I doubt that it is for moving the game piece (directly).

How much clearance is there between the "top" of the tube (as shown on FIRST) and the underside of the lexan bracket? If the rails held some sort of cart (like a car on a roller coaster with tubular rails), would there be enough space for some sort of "keeper" (something that would keep the cart from getting knocked off the rails) to pass between the tube and the bracket? Why else would the rails be held from the outside and not at the point nearest the tab on the bracket?

Note regarding the slope: Look at the radius of the bend in the "lexan" bracket. It isn't uniform - it forms a conical shape that is wider at the bottom.

gallo26 24-12-2009 19:38

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I've been studying the picture, and I'm not sure if anyone has said this, so i apologize if you have. To make my point more clear, I'll put a picture below.

FIRST has been trying to cut back on costs. So realizing that, Lexan, as previously mentioned, is expensive. FIRST wouldn't cut back on costs, and spend money on tons of lexan for rail supports for 32+ fields. In my opinion, that lexan part is merely a mount for a counter sensor. It'll detect some ball or round object.

In the middle of the poles, there are holes, larger than necessary, for a screw head to go through and not to interfere with any game element rolling down it. On the pole, towards the top, there is a hole identical to that. It doesn't appear to be a reflection or refraction from anything BUT that pole the lexan is mounted to. You can see the pins from that pole too. The only issue is that hole does NOT appear on the front most pole visible to us.

My hypothesis is it's a mounting hole. As i said the lexan is merely a strong support for a sensor (because the software guys on my team HATE it when weak mounts break and they lose a sensor). This rail system will be mounted on the outside of the field. Somewhere. and this is just some junction to count the scored balls. Longer poles, curved poles, whatever, will connect to this. But that single hole makes me believe its mounting somewhere on the outside, or even the inside, of the field. But on the side of something.



Thoughts or comments on this??

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 19:42

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallo26 (Post 890517)
In the middle of the poles, there are holes, larger than necessary, for a screw head to go through and not to interfere with any game element rolling down it. On the pole, towards the top, there is a hole identical to that. It doesn't appear to be a reflection or refraction from anything BUT that pole the lexan is mounted to. You can see the pins from that pole too. The only issue is that hole does NOT appear on the front most pole visible to us.

My hypothesis is it's a mounting hole.....

Actually I think its the reflection from the front "clearance hole." Because the weird angled "reflection" being the reflection from the front pole still doesn't make sense.

Which is why there seems to be reflection of the ridge where the larger tube ends. If it isn't the reflection, then the larger tube looks too long.

Karibou 24-12-2009 19:56

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink (Post 890512)

BUT - This is too easy. I doubt the GDC would release a clue that identified the size, shape, and "texture" of the game piece. I suspect trickery! It may be a field element, but I doubt that it is for moving the game piece (directly).

We don't know the exact dimensions. The piece that we're creating on our own probably does NOT have the same dimensions as the real thing.

Chris is me 24-12-2009 19:57

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 890525)
We don't know the exact dimensions. The piece that we're creating on our own probably does NOT have the same dimensions as the real thing.

We can estimate based on the tubing size from the FRC field and work from there.

Eugene Fang 24-12-2009 20:08

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I highlighted the reflections to make it easier to talk about.

Red & Magenta: Reflection off the tubes and off each other (Yes, it works out. see this post http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=77)

What is the orange outlined shape?


gorrilla 24-12-2009 20:17

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
one question could be why the GDC waited until today to release the hint?


Just saying, sticking with the moon theme from last year, today in 1968, the Apollo 8 first entered orbit around the moon...

orbit around the moon = balls traveling around a track? I doubt it...

Chris is me 24-12-2009 20:20

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gorrilla (Post 890538)
one question could be why the GDC waited until today to release the hint?

Perhaps it's proximity to Kickoff. There are 16 days until Kickoff. 16 mean anything?

jmanela 24-12-2009 20:22

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 890540)
Perhaps it's proximity to Kickoff. There are 16 days until Kickoff. 16 mean anything?

driver's license!!, however, that would be more like overdrive:yikes:

Chris is me 24-12-2009 20:31

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I showed it to my very much non-engineer parents and they both immediately thought it was a bracket for a 2X4 or something. Maybe it's Robot Limbo!

TEntwistle 24-12-2009 20:33

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
On the reflections, it makes sense that the red outline is the reflection of the forward post, and explains the extra hole that seems to appear on the rear post. The image you referenced seems to demonstrate that well. The area that you outlined in orange may still be a reflection or refraction of one of the other posts that are present. If you notice in the image that you reference, the shadows are at a different angle from the image in the hint. The light source should be more from the rear and side rather than more above. I do not remember much about the physics of light, but changing the angle of the light source should change the way things are reflected and refracted.

CGuenther 24-12-2009 20:56

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I doubt reflections have anything to do with it. I don't think the GDC would go through the trouble of making a rendering showing other parts besides what they were trying to show.

maltz1881 24-12-2009 21:09

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
It appears to be a slider yoke. It instantly reminded me of that game where there is a waiter and you have to pile dishes on his tray and they more that goes on the higher his hand has to extend in the air. If it gets to high then he tips. :ahh:

Starke 24-12-2009 21:15

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gorrilla (Post 890538)
one question could be why the GDC waited until today to release the hint?...

This is probably because kickoff is not until January 9th. We have more time to think about the game hint in the month before kickoff. :yikes:

Beta Version 24-12-2009 21:23

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I think this piece is designed to suspend the rails, not provide rigid support.

I highly doubt that lexan piece is for support. First, its too expensive, and second, this piece (owing to its short length and connection style) is apparently designed to slip in between two pre-existing railings, a very poor choice if your trying to make something stronger. Since it isnt for structural support, instead, it must be for suspension.

I think these lexan pieces, must be used as a way to suspend rails (curved or straight?) either above a surface, or away from a wall. the rectangular 'tounge' is bolted to the wall, floor, piece, etc. and the rails extend from it suspended.

And.. why isnt this is the rumour mill like it usually is? Its hard to find here

Karibou 24-12-2009 22:08

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CGuenther (Post 890555)
I doubt reflections have anything to do with it. I don't think the GDC would go through the trouble of making a rendering showing other parts besides what they were trying to show.

That's what I've been thinking about the reflections/refractions. It's like the text in the background of the fish picture from last year - just an unavoidable coincidence that has nothing to do with the real hint.

Although, if you were looking for a context for the part we've been given, looking at the reflections might help, but not very much.

Tetraman 24-12-2009 22:49

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CGuenther (Post 890555)
I doubt reflections have anything to do with it. I don't think the GDC would go through the trouble of making a rendering showing other parts besides what they were trying to show.

Game hint season makes everyone paranoid. The slightest change in a pixel can mean the difference between everyone freaking out about tetras or track balls.

joeweber 25-12-2009 00:17

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
If it is a track for a ball most balls of this size are not heavy and if you have rules that do not allow us to make physical contact with it it would not need to be strong. If the robot could only be 60 inches tall and the track is above 60 inches than you would not have to worry about making conttact with the track and breaking it. We will have to build this for our use so I would assume that the pipes are trade size pipes. 1/2 & 3/4 emt or pvc. We could also replace the clear with plywood for our use.

HashemReza 25-12-2009 00:19

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I kind of like the idea of a track going around the field...perhaps where you have to place a ball on the track that leads towards a goal? It goes with all the train stuff that we've been thinking recently.

TD912 25-12-2009 00:50

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I bet the actual use for this piece will be the exact opposite of what we expect it to be. Only 15 days 'til kickoff...

darkangel 25-12-2009 01:13

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 890566)
That's what I've been thinking about the reflections/refractions. It's like the text in the background of the fish picture from last year - just an unavoidable coincidence that has nothing to do with the real hint.

Although, if you were looking for a context for the part we've been given, looking at the reflections might help, but not very much.

Agreed. I'm pretty sure you can make the reflection anything, especially if you're rendering an object outside of the main assembly file it's being used in (I could be wrong, though).

That being said, I'm on board with the people who are saying it's a field element. Are there any dimensions? Because that makes a huge difference.

Okay, I'm done thinking about this for now. The people who come up with these clues should be ashamed of themselves for releasing the first one on Christmas Eve. *shakes head in disapproval* Well, we'll know in 15 days. Wonder if they'll bother releasing any clues between now and then...

martinswat1806 25-12-2009 02:47

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Ypu guys are thinking way to far into this. FIRST is not going to make a field with moving parts it takes to much work to cordinate something like that now this part could be part of an adjustable height shelf or even possibly a field piece for the human players think about it guys, you know better.

alectronic 25-12-2009 02:59

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboMaster (Post 890479)
Yeah, last year he said "slippery slope" and that was a definite biggie. Now we know. Does he do that a lot? I've only been around for 2 years, I wouldn't know past 2008.

I was not in FRC at the time, but from reviewing the videos, I believe the background of the kickoff video (the screen behind the people speaking and such) in 2005 was actually one of the tetras. (The element that year)
But no one really noticed it because it was not the focus of the scene. So I am guessing there are little hints written in every year, but we have picked up on them more in 2008 and 09

artdutra04 25-12-2009 03:17

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by techalex (Post 890586)
I was not in FRC at the time, but from reviewing the videos, I believe the background of the kickoff video (the screen behind the people speaking and such) in 2005 was actually one of the tetras. (The element that year)
But no one really noticed it because it was not the focus of the scene. So I am guessing there are little hints written in every year, but we have picked up on them more in 2008 and 09

Yup, the screen behind the speakers at the 2005 Kickoff had a glass tetrahedron floating in front of clouds.

mobilegamer999 25-12-2009 06:37

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
1 Attachment(s)
my guess is there gonna be connected together like in the attached image and its going to be used as a rail system for balls. I sized it out and depending on the scale it should be about a 4.5 inch - 5 inch ball that fits inside of it easily.

Ryan_Epperson 25-12-2009 07:14

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mobilegamer999 (Post 890588)
my guess is there gonna be connected together like in the attached image and its going to be used as a rail system for balls. I sized it out and depending on the scale it should be about a 4.5 inch - 5 inch ball that fits inside of it easily.

That looks good; however, I don't think it will involve balls, there are 3 holes that look like they would be used to mount something/things. Maybe hooks? or something to collect an item?

Nate Smith 25-12-2009 08:05

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Version (Post 890560)
And.. why isnt this is the rumour mill like it usually is? Its hard to find here

As far as where it was in years past, I don't remember, and I'm not awake enough yet to want to go look, but my answer to your question would be that it's technically not a rumor...the hint picture is an officially released document from FIRST. Much like the "what do they mean by rule X?" discussions that will be starting in a few short weeks, what is being discussed is not a rumor, but rather an interpretation of official documentation.

MikePres 25-12-2009 08:59

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Finally a game hint! So excited! :D
Can't believe i read all the 14 pages 'till now...
So i'm gonna say something obvious that wasn't mentioned so far (i like the track idea, btw):

It's the letter "H".

TEntwistle 25-12-2009 09:09

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan_Epperson (Post 890590)
That looks good; however, I don't think it will involve balls, there are 3 holes that look like they would be used to mount something/things. Maybe hooks? or something to collect an item?

I think that the holes in the "rails" are access points for attaching the yellow "lexan" piece to the rails. The holes in the lexan are for possibly mounting to a support system (not as likely, if others are correct that this is lexan because it would add expense but not be durable enough for robot interactions) or a sensor (maybe to count balls by color, or something like that, as someone mentioned about a hundred posts ago). Either way, if these are linked together, there would be pipes between two of these elements that are seen. The posts that stick out near the ends from each rail are likely used to attach to another element, and the shown piece does not look like it can attach to another of itself. It has male connectors at each end, and would need to connect to a female connector (if the theory about linking these together is correct).

And don't forget - all the stuff about about reflection/refraction of the images could be the clue, and not the pictured element at all. What if the drivers area wall were contstructed in a manner that skewed the vision of the drivers? That would certainly add a new element to the game - driving by remote camera or other indirect sensor of robot position.

Greg Needel 25-12-2009 09:09

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mobilegamer999 (Post 890588)
my guess is there gonna be connected together like in the attached image and its going to be used as a rail system for balls. I sized it out and depending on the scale it should be about a 4.5 inch - 5 inch ball that fits inside of it easily.



Thats exactly what I was thinking also as far as attaching them together. I think the plastic part is the mount for a hanging game piece, and the game will be like sonic the hedgehog where you go around trying to collect rings.


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