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-   -   [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79453)

TEntwistle 25-12-2009 09:15

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Oh, it doesn't really matter how many clues are given in this year's or last year's kick-off speaches. If a new field element is floating on the screen behind Dean while they are doing the pre-release talks, you either won't be listening to the talk, you still won't kow what it means until they release the game details 15 minutes later, and your team will not be any further ahead of the other teams. Other than for pure prognostic enjoyment, and to get everyone thinking about how they might handle situations that they surmise from the clue, the hints have little purpose and should be kept in perspective. That being said, I figured out the entire game last night, but then I woke up and promptly forgot it all. I would do the CAD of our robot now, but I haven't been able to CAD a nebulous design. I don't think that "cloud" is one of the parts in the AI Content Center.

Karibou 25-12-2009 09:42

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Needel (Post 890598)
Thats exactly what I was thinking also as far as attaching them together. I think the plastic part is the mount for a hanging game piece, and the game will be like sonic the hedgehog where you go around trying to collect rings.

If the Lexan is indeed a mount for a hanging game piece, I would hope that the goal wouldn't be to hang things through the holes. That would be a little TOO precise, even for FIRST. Now, if we had to, say, get hoops to land on on the little hump at the top of the Lexan...

Anyone up for some horseshoes? I can see these being placed at different points of the field, and we would have to find a way to get hoops on them, or something of the like.

joeweber 25-12-2009 10:01

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Could you assume the size of the assembly by the nylock nuts on the drawing? They look like 1/4x20 and they must be using and allen head screw inside. The ball can not be too big other wise they would not need the curve cut out in the braket piece.

Stephen of REX 25-12-2009 10:12

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
So stress wise, do you think that the "lexan" could hold the bars in place with say, a bowling ball? Or would its weight split the lexan? Because I am terrified of bowling balls as game pieces.

ATannahill 25-12-2009 10:22

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Depends on the weight. A six pound ball would be fine, but a sixteen pound ball can do some damage.

Nin_estarSaerah 25-12-2009 10:27

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePres (Post 890596)
So i'm gonna say something obvious that wasn't mentioned so far (i like the track idea, btw):

It's the letter "H".

I thought of that, and it is a possibility, if a bit of a stretch. That would certainly go with the idea of it's not what it seems. Things that start with H? Ham? Holes? Hijacking? Humbug.

If it is a track, the "bracket" probably would attach to something to hold it up, like a pole, which would make it difficult for the robot to manipulate the balls from directly underneath. It seems more likely that it needs to be manipulated from the side, thus, it probably won't be mounted high, but more waist height. That's my two cents.

IndySam 25-12-2009 10:44

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen of REX (Post 890602)
So stress wise, do you think that the "lexan" could hold the bars in place with say, a bowling ball? Or would its weight split the lexan? Because I am terrified of bowling balls as game pieces.

After several near disasters from those heavy flying tetras I seriously doubt that the GDC will ever do anything that will involve potentially heavy projectiles again.

Elgin Clock 25-12-2009 10:51

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 890394)
Assuming it's a ball track, here is a picture showing the relative size of things (from what I could gather from the picture), and the possible size of the ball.

Note that the 8.25" width of the lexan is from outside to outside.

Sorry for the messy dimensioning. I did this quickly.


Nice job. If that's the case, we have a possibility for a soft, safe ball to use. If anyone remembers playing polo back in elementary school, you should recognize these:
http://pe.ssww.com/store/product/sku=W4789/cmc=CRSCOM/

Could probably even downgrade to the 6" balls:
http://pe.ssww.com/store/product/sku=W4794/cmc=CRSCOM/

Clourchn07 25-12-2009 11:02

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
My thoughts are it is a holder of some kind of game piece... squares or triangular game pieces have been rare the past few years.

Also it seems as though it could take some abuse but very limited, I think the track idea is possible. This would give it limited interaction with the robots below.

As far as the floor, it could be anything, I'd say they'll keep us guessing every year to ruin our pre-designed drive trains. But I love the idea of railroad tracks or something like them.

Also the hanging on the pipes idea... I like it but it would be very similar to last years game...so...

BrendanB 25-12-2009 11:20

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I've been thinking, everyone has slept in this morning but me, and what if the nubs are pushed in and inside another tube and sitting vertical and say that there are several stacked on top of each other. Then they must be released and lifted up creating a vertical row of shelves that create pockets for objects to be scored in.

My $0.02

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

IndySam 25-12-2009 11:24

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Played with the hue/saturation in Photoshop but didn't find much.


jamie_1930 25-12-2009 11:28

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Yesterday as I thought I jotted down notes about the game hint and here are the ideas I've gathered.

First I took a look at the key features of the mechanism shown, highlighted in the picture.

1 (RED) - These clips are seen, or at least appear to be similar to be, in numerous product, such as tables and canopies. In those products their purpose is to allow the height, or position, of the object to different predesignated positions.

2 (Blue) - The holes shown in my opinion suggest that the lexan piece will attach to another part of the field, assuming it is a structural part of the field.

3 (Green) - The rounded cut here has been the subject of much debate on this thread because many people view it to be a difficult thing to produce and therefore needs a specific purpose. It is my opinion that in the production of this piece a lexan sheet is laid out and much like a Christmas cookies are made they are cut into their seperate pieces, then the holes are drilled and the sides are folded up to produce the final product. Now looking back to the stamping of the pieces if you were to have that be a straight line you would end up with virtually the same piece, but by adding the curve you are able to stamp out more pieces from a singular sheet because now vertically they space of the piece has been almost compressed allowing for less waste and more product, it is simply a feature used to increase productivity.

4 (Yellow) - This protrusion seems like it must be significant to the part but again it is more for productivity than anything else. With the mind set that this attaches to something else the four hole all need to be there and in order to accommodate that the extra space is need. Although by cutting back in the outer sections it allows more pieces to be made from a single sheet of lexan, because the pieces fit together like a redundant puzzle.





Then my mind wondered on the assortment of different ways this could be used
1 - Adjustable field so that from match to match robots, and drivers, will have to adapt to an ever changing environment.
-Dividers prohibit access to certain parts of the field, or prevent bulky robots from going in specific places
-Height of scoring element changes, ect.

2 - Similar to the adjustable field, but a more limbo like game where failure to pass under results in a loss of points.

3 - Rack for balls, adjustability allows for one larger ball to be randomly placed in different spots.

4 - Finally the thought, that would anger everyone of you and me more than anything, that this is just a non-fundamental piece that requires no worrying. Such as a new camera or battery mount.

skimoose 25-12-2009 11:28

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mobilegamer999 (Post 890588)
my guess is there gonna be connected together like in the attached image and its going to be used as a rail system for balls. I sized it out and depending on the scale it should be about a 4.5 inch - 5 inch ball that fits inside of it easily.

Oooow Dave, I can't wait to see the turnouts. ;)

What size will they be? #4, 6, or 8, LH, RH, Wye, crossovers, double slips, or three ways, and will they point or stub switches? :p

jamie_1930 25-12-2009 11:30

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 890614)
Played with the hue/saturation in Photoshop but didn't find much.


didn't we see that banana in the 2007 hint?

keehun 25-12-2009 11:31

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IndySam (Post 890614)
Played with the hue/saturation in Photoshop but didn't find much.

Nice try with the photoshopping since I don't see a banana when I do my own. :P

ATannahill 25-12-2009 11:34

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keehun (Post 890618)
I CAN SWEAR I SEE A BANANA in the right half of the Lexan piece.

But there's no refraction!

keehun 25-12-2009 11:56

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rtfgnow (Post 890619)
But there's no refraction!

I changed my mind... Sorry! See my edited post in the same place.

This is the reason:



Maybe I'm the wrong one and not getting the correct hue/saturation settings. If that's the case, let me know!

TEntwistle 25-12-2009 12:19

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 890615)
Yesterday as I thought I jotted down notes about the game hint and here are the ideas I've gathered.

First I took a look at the key features of the mechanism shown, highlighted in the picture.

1 (RED) - These clips are seen, or at least appear to be similar to be, in numerous product, such as tables and canopies. In those products their purpose is to allow the height, or position, of the object to different predesignated positions.

2 (Blue) - The holes shown in my opinion suggest that the lexan piece will attach to another part of the field, assuming it is a structural part of the field.

3 (Green) - The rounded cut here has been the subject of much debate on this thread because many people view it to be a difficult thing to produce and therefore needs a specific purpose. It is my opinion that in the production of this piece a lexan sheet is laid out and much like a Christmas cookies are made they are cut into their seperate pieces, then the holes are drilled and the sides are folded up to produce the final product. Now looking back to the stamping of the pieces if you were to have that be a straight line you would end up with virtually the same piece, but by adding the curve you are able to stamp out more pieces from a singular sheet because now vertically they space of the piece has been almost compressed allowing for less waste and more product, it is simply a feature used to increase productivity.

4 (Yellow) - This protrusion seems like it must be significant to the part but again it is more for productivity than anything else. With the mind set that this attaches to something else the four hole all need to be there and in order to accommodate that the extra space is need. Although by cutting back in the outer sections it allows more pieces to be made from a single sheet of lexan, because the pieces fit together like a redundant puzzle.

I have to disagree with most of your thoughts, although I cannot do so with much certainty. Logic for each follows below:

Red-I don't think that these clips look sturdy enough to support much weight and would have been more robust if they were to select height or position. However, they do look like pins I have seen to lock one pole inside another (with a 90 degree twist of the outer pole), so I think that they are most likely to allow this piece to attach to another yet be removed relatively easily (i.e. for moving the game pieces between events)

Blue - The holes are likely to attach to another game piece. If you put a 2x4 into this bracket, the holes on the side and the holes in the face of the lexan would be perfect for 4 drywall screws to hold the bracket to the wood. You could do something similar to aluminum box, or an electronic sensor. The position of the 4 holes would provide a sturdy connection. I also think that this is the reason for the tab on the lexan - the two hole on the face need to be far enough apart to give it strength to prevent rotation. This is similar to a pattern seen in joist brackets for decking and construction.

Green - If it were purely manufacturing, the tab on top could be duplicated in the shapre of the bottom to minimize cuts. The semi-circle shape seems appropriate for a ball so that it can travel above it on the railing. Even the side-holes are above the level of the semicircle cutout, suggesting to me that this is for clearance

Yellow - See above - I think that this is purely to get the holes far enough apart to make it structurally sound.

In addition, if the yellow piece is lexan, then it is not likely to have enough strength to stand a lot of abuse. If it is lexan, then it is likely either a piece that the robot will not interact with directly (a sensor holder), or it is off the playing field (part of a ramp for the human players to use to deliver game pieces to the field - someone earlier said Skee Ball). If it is a sensor holder on the field, my guess is that there is another piece that attaches to this one that has the real support device that will do the work of holding this track to the rest of the playing field (if it is indeed a track)

Several years ago, there was a game where the purple balls were released once a robot knocked a ball off of a post (if I read the description right) - could this be a track that contains balls that are released once the robot does something? Maybe one ball released per activity? The the lexan could hold the release mechanism/gate or something like that.

ATannahill 25-12-2009 12:32

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
How do we know thins is the final design? It might just be a quickly made piece for the render and they ignored some finer details. What could be missing?

martinswat1806 25-12-2009 13:01

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
If you flip it upsidedown the track idea would work as possibly a way to get balls to the human player if the robot initiates the movement.

artdutra04 25-12-2009 14:21

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
It's part of the field; it attaches via the spring pins to either the Delta field or the primary welded aluminum ones. The pins are plenty strong enough to be used on the field.

The curve in the plastic is there for the same reason that the bolts that hold the bronze polycarbonate to the structure are recessed: they have to clear a ball without any snags. I'm guessing soccer balls, since it's been quite a few years since we've had them on the field (2002 was the last year), and unlike the Orbit balls, are easily available everywhere in the world. (Football anyone?) Plus, while past events aren't definite proof of future events, 1998, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008 have all been "normal" ball years: 2010 is on track to be another ball year.

And looking around on the Internet, trying to find blue and red soccer balls is surprising hard (they're out of stock!) while all non red/blue colored soccer balls are in stock! Why would red and blue soccer balls be out of stock in the winter, while all other colors be in stock?
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3540673
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3439879

Bronze polycarbonate was chosen for a specific reason other than kicks and giggles, and has to deal with either the transparency or the lighter weight of polycarbonate as opposed to aluminum. While this bracket should be able to withstand several hundred pounds of static force before it fails, I'm guessing that this bracket is somewhere not accessible to the robot, either off the field or in an area protected from full-speed rams by robots. The high tab sticking off the top, coupled with large radii around the 1/4" or 5/16" mounting holes indicate that this piece will bear some kind of significant load (the radii are used to reduce stress concentrations).

The fact that the polycarbonate is mounted onto a larger pipe is significant. While it'll most likely not move during a match, I'm guessing the outer pipe is used either as a cheap, idiot-proof spacer (washers could fall off during assembly, and are easy to loose), or to facilitate assembly of the entire structure that this model is attached to. (Think of those times on your robot when something doesn't quite line up, so you loosen everything and tighten everything down at once ;)).

I'm guessing this structure is the base of a soccer ball auto loader, and polycarbonate was chosen to allow teams (robots?) to more easily see if there is one last ball in the auto loader. The autoloader will hold some set number of balls (six? eight? ten? Baker's dozen? Bueler?). There might even me some release mechanism, such that like the 2004 game, they are released onto the field (or made available) at some point in the match after some condition has been met.

The bronze color of the polycarbonate is also most likely significant, as clear polycarbonate is cheaper than smoked polycarbonate.

Some facts about bronze:

Bronze color:
RGB: 205,127,50
Hex: #CD7F32

Bronze is the most popular medal for cast metal statues.


Bronze Star Medal. Possible connection to cooperition?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The Bronze Star Medal is a United States Armed Forces individual military decoration that may be awarded for bravery, acts of merit, or meritorious service. When awarded for bravery, it is the fourth-highest combat award of the U.S. Armed Forces and the ninth highest military award (including both combat and non-combat awards) in the order of precedence of U.S. military decorations. Officers from the other federal uniformed services are also eligible to receive the award if they are militarized or detailed to serve with a service branch of the armed forces.


Bronze is also a breed of domestic turkey.




Bronze is also traditionally given to the third place recipient. Possible third alliance?

Edit: 2228th post :D

TEntwistle 25-12-2009 14:42

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Any possibility the game could be played with something like a tennis ball? There haven't been any games with a ball that small since 2000, so it would provide a unique challenge. I remember a quote from the GDC about keeping the game interesting for veteran teams but also something that rookies could handle (the case every year). I know that there are practical reasons to keep the game pieces large but it is not an inherent requirement.

skimoose 25-12-2009 14:58

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 890629)
Some facts about bronze:

Another bronze fact: Manufacturers of steam locomotives used bronze builder's plates to apply the following data to a locomotive; Manufacturer's Name, Manufacturer's Location, year of manufacture, builder's serial number for that specific locomotive.



Unfortunately, most bronze builder's plates, as well as the bronze number plates off the smoke box nose or cab sides were removed and melted down during war effort metal drives in World War II.

Just a little fuel for the train and tracks thoughts.

Karibou 25-12-2009 15:39

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 890629)
And looking around on the Internet, trying to find blue and red soccer balls is surprising hard (they're out of stock!) while all non red/blue colored soccer balls are in stock! Why would red and blue soccer balls be out of stock in the winter, while all other colors be in stock?
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3540673
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3439879

But the orbit balls weren't out of stock pre-kickoff last year, were they? I think this soccer ball business might just be a coincidence :P (though I guess you could be spot on)

ttldomination 25-12-2009 15:47

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 890635)
But the orbit balls weren't out of stock pre-kickoff last year, were they? I think this soccer ball business might just be a coincidence :P (though I guess you could be spot on)

Idk. Ordering 3-4 thousand soccer balls might cause a certain product to go out of order.

Just a thought.

Nin_estarSaerah 25-12-2009 16:39

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 890635)
But the orbit balls weren't out of stock pre-kickoff last year, were they? I think this soccer ball business might just be a coincidence :P (though I guess you could be spot on)

I doubt anyone knew to look and see if orbit balls were out of stock before kickoff. Probably still a coincidence.

strategic sheep 25-12-2009 18:33

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Ahh, I am being inept with computers today... Hopefully I can get it right this time. After much overanalizing of this clue on my part (I drew it up in Autodesk and converted it to ASCII instead of working on essays...), I think that the only bit of any significance to us is the reflection. It goes along with the whole everything is not as it seems in morse code, and would make nicely for a game where the robots have to do some converting of objects. Tactile or otherwise. Now I'm hoping that neither of my other posts have come into re-existence...

strategic sheep 25-12-2009 18:38

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
As in the reflection seems to be the proper orientation of the piece even though it is not the actual piece, and the morse code is just a bunch of dots and lines until it is translated.

TEntwistle 25-12-2009 18:44

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
As for the orbit balls last year, our team went out the day of kickoff (or one day later) and scouted for orbit balls and found very few in existence in the north west part of Philadelphia. Actually, the ones we found had not been sold because the price tags were missing and the manager had planned on returning them to the manufacturer for credit. The other thing that we heard was that the manufacturer was discontinuing them anyway.

In short, there were almost no orbit balls around last year at kickoff, but the explanation may have to do more with the future of the product rather than FIRST snatching them all up. On the otherhand, the lack of blue-red soccer balls is very interesting. If this holds true and we are using blue and red soccer balls in 2 weeks, I would have to rate this as the best bit of sleuthing so far for the 2010 season.

Nin_estarSaerah 25-12-2009 18:57

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
If our game piece is soccer balls, wouldn't it be more specific than all red and blue soccer balls? Maybe a lot of kids just got soccer balls for Christmas. I still believe it is a coincidence.

Chris is me 25-12-2009 19:07

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nin_estarSaerah (Post 890649)
If our game piece is soccer balls, wouldn't it be more specific than all red and blue soccer balls? Maybe a lot of kids just got soccer balls for Christmas. I still believe it is a coincidence.

Why would it have to be? Soccer balls are built to competitive standards, so there's no need for a specific brand. Red and blue also match alliances nicely. (The 2002 game would probably be a lot more balanced and a lot harder for Beatty to win if they had colored game pieces, much like in FTC's goal grabbing game)

Gary.C 25-12-2009 19:14

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
If soccer balls are the game piece, blue and red soccer balls would match the alliances nicely, but on the field they will have one brand. I don't think they will have a bunch of different brands on the field, but for practice I guess you could use any brand. The FTC hockey pucks last year I think were Franklin. So if we have soccer balls then I'm guessing they would want to use Franklin. Like these

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3540673
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3439879

blaxbb 25-12-2009 19:53

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TEntwistle (Post 890647)
In short, there were almost no orbit balls around last year at kickoff, but the explanation may have to do more with the future of the product rather than FIRST snatching them all up. On the otherhand, the lack of blue-red soccer balls is very interesting. If this holds true and we are using blue and red soccer balls in 2 weeks, I would have to rate this as the best bit of sleuthing so far for the 2010 season.

There were few Orbit Balls after kickoff because Walmart, the only distributor of Orbit Balls, decided to stop stocking them shortly before Kickoff. I highly doubt Walmart gave up on selling soccer balls.

EDIT: It was either Walmart or the manufacturer that stopped sales, not sure which.

keehun 25-12-2009 19:54

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I heard the references to a soccer ball earlier in this thread, but I am wondering if the actual game hint has anything to do with Soccer balls?

Gary.C 25-12-2009 20:01

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Turn the render upside down and connect multiple of them and you get a track that is wide enough to put a soccer ball on the track.

Nin_estarSaerah 25-12-2009 20:04

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keehun (Post 890655)
I heard the references to a soccer ball earlier in this thread, but I am wondering if the actual game hint has anything to do with Soccer balls?

Actually...no. I think we have gotten off on a tangent. If the size of the arch cut out in the lexan is indicative of the size of the ball, (which is a stretch) then a soccer ball seems to be a logical choice, but the actual hint doesn't reference them at all.

joeweber 25-12-2009 20:14

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Here is the game we will play

Nurnburger 25-12-2009 20:20

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I am inclined to believe that the lack of soccer balls is a coincidence. After looking at the soccer balls available at Toys R Us (http://www.toysrus.com/family/index....9892&view=all), all but one kind are out of stock.

Chris is me 25-12-2009 20:20

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joeweber (Post 890658)
Here is the game we will play

I'm actually building that right now as I wait for build season... :)

I mean... we just did a ball intake game. Maybe something "soccer like" will be part of the game, but building the same robot again? meh

Nin_estarSaerah 25-12-2009 21:34

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 890662)

I mean... we just did a ball intake game. Maybe something "soccer like" will be part of the game, but building the same robot again? meh

I don't think that building the same robot again will be an option. They usually try to design games that don't lend themselves to that. If there is a track, manipulation is probably going to be a little less direct. It doesn't seem to be that the robots could travel on the tracks, at least, not like a train, because the larger tube part would make that very difficult. So we would need to manipulate by arms or other such protrusions, and arms were practically impossible last year. It also may include some rule that prohibits ball intake, to make it more like soccer, so the robot has to control the ball without actually possessing it

AcesJames 25-12-2009 21:44

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joeweber (Post 890658)
Here is the game we will play
*Snip*



Hello, CD. Today you play a game for your lives!
:p

jmanela 25-12-2009 22:29

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AcesJames (Post 890674)

Hello, CD. Today you play a game for your lives!
:p

Let's get back on track...

AcesJames 25-12-2009 22:41

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jmanela (Post 890679)
Let's get back on track...

I'm sorry, I just had to lighten the mood a little. I think that sometimes we need to remind ourselves that everything the GDC may or may not tell us before kickoff should be taken with a grain of salt, even if it is an "official" hint.

None of our predictions based on this hint can be confirmed for another 2 weeks anyway, right? :)

Nin_estarSaerah 25-12-2009 22:56

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jmanela (Post 890679)
Let's get back on track...

I think perhaps "track" is an issue.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=78803

This thread has so much talk of trains and tracks, I think that it could be possible that the GDC gave us a field component that could be misconstrued as a track to go with the earlier mentions of trains.

mcf747 25-12-2009 23:26

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joeweber (Post 890658)
Here is the game we will play

I actually remember making this when I was younger.

Akash Rastogi 25-12-2009 23:33

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Uhhh I'm not sure where you're all getting these crazy ideas from, but this is what I've been told we're playing...

Even Yao knows what the secret game is now.



Eugene Fang 26-12-2009 00:44

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
An interesting point was brought up while talking to one of my teammates:

If the game hint is indeed a track where balls are to be scored, it would be too easy to descore them (like in 2003's Stack Attack), whether on purpose or by accident; a simple bump could kick the ball out because the track isn't "deep" enough for the 6" diameter or so balls we're assuming.

True, the GDC could make a rule making it illegal to descore the balls (like the ringers in 2007), but there would be too many incidences of accidental descoring, making it a pain for the referees.

So I'm revising my guess that it's still a track for holding balls, but as a dispenser/autoloader rather than where the robots will be trying to score.

Chris is me 26-12-2009 01:04

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 890698)
True, the GDC could make a rule making it illegal to descore the balls (like the ringers in 2007), but there would be too many incidences of accidental descoring, making it a pain for the referees.

So I'm revising my guess that it's still a track for holding balls, but as a dispenser/autoloader rather than where the robots will be trying to score.

In 2000, there was a somewhat similar (yet much deeper) rack, this made descoring much harder than scoring but a strategy many considered viable... it'd be interesting if they brought a mechanic like that back.

sNeff 26-12-2009 01:09

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MikePres (Post 890596)
Finally a game hint! So excited! :D
Can't believe i read all the 14 pages 'till now...
So i'm gonna say something obvious that wasn't mentioned so far (i like the track idea, btw):

It's the letter "H".

H is for hydro.

Break out the propellers!

((In all seriousness, I really like the ball track idea. As a personal opinion, I really don't want to attach something to the robot. I also want to be back on carpet. That's the extent of my serious thoughts so far; I've had a long day.))

steelerborn 26-12-2009 01:32

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Well your assuming that the game is using "balls"
there have been loads of other shapes in the past

For instance the balls would be knocked off a lot.
But if it was an object of any shape with a hook to latch on to the rail,
well then a track would make more sense.
You would have teams fighting over placing certain objects
in one area and others in another. Different areas with different objects
would score different amounts of points. With the most hard to reach area scoring the most points.
This could tie in to recycling.

Just an idea, we have no idea what to expect.
Its going to be a fun year

keehun 26-12-2009 02:30

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Was that banana image a prank by a mentor earlier? I just had to ask and get it out of my system...

Chris is me 26-12-2009 03:06

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keehun (Post 890702)
Was that banana image a prank by a mentor earlier? I just had to ask and get it out of my system...

Check your Reputation comments. :)

Trent B 26-12-2009 03:25

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Lots of good ideas similar to what I came up with already so I don't feel the need to repeat.

I must say I am intrigued if this is a permanent field element how well it could stand up to some of the hits robots make on field elements assuming it is 1/4" lexan.

Regardless of whether or not it is fake the Banana thing made me think of Have A Banana productions ending to the animation if memory serves me right.

Edit: That Knex kit is in my basement and was built many times.

gallo26 26-12-2009 05:34

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I find it very hard to believe that if in fact that part is a junction for a track, that balls would be placed there as to be scored or for robots to get. In some way, the balls should roll along that track. If it were to just sit there, there would be no reason to waste time cutting out an arc in the lexan. But because there IS a cut, it makes me think its something AFTER the goal. In 2006 all of the balls would be shot into that upper goal, and there was a channel that ran those balls into a feeder box for human players.

My belief is, And I will try to CAD it up as best as I can, That there will be soccer sized balls on the playing field. I doubt that they would be colored for each alliance, But they could be colored for different point values. There is a goal in the middle of the field, suspended up high, 10'-12' in a triangle shape. Similar to the opening in 2006, but there are 3 sides to score. It also rotates, so if hit hard enough, it'll move and you'll have to realign your shot.

That track is just a way to maybe carefully count the balls, but mostly to take the balls from the upper goal, and channel then downward where they either sit on rails to be picked up by a robot, or channeled to human players to redistribute them.

Just a thought that hit me 5:30am

Thoughts or comments??

Tetraman 26-12-2009 10:31

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Consider this: One of the new members of the GDC is from Cirque du Soleil.

If this isn't a Marble track, I don't know what is.


GGCO 26-12-2009 10:51

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Does anyone think that if it really is a marble track, then this clue is WAY too obvious???

DonRotolo 26-12-2009 10:55

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetraman (Post 890721)
If this isn't a Marble track, I don't know what is.

For what it's worth, I agree. The hint shows it upside-down. This is a field element, one of several. It is used to connect longer pieces of pipe forming a marble raceway of sorts, but for 7.5" balls (or similar objects).

Tetraman 26-12-2009 10:58

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GGCO (Post 890722)
Does anyone think that if it really is a marble track, then this clue is WAY too obvious???

The clues are way too obvious EVERY year. The problem is, we usually always miss the obviousness.

And if it's not a marble track, its at least a place where balls are set, like they may be placed on this "track" as a kind of "platform loading station".

I also have a feeling that this has something to do with Pipes. Like that game where you have to move the parts of the pipes to get the water flowing in the right direction. What if there is a continuous stream of "water balls" that are sent out a single "pipe" and then roll their way down pipes to "goals". We may need to form robots that can complete sections of these "pipe-ways" to get the "water balls" to "flow" into our goals, and avoid opponent's goals. Or move sections of "pipe-ways" from one place on the field to another. There may be a way for us to funnel "water-balls" to the human player, and they have better and more direct access to the goals, so maybe letting the "water-balls" drip to the floor is an option.

EDIT: And to be more grandeous with this idea, there may be some device above the player stations that is where the balls "drip" from, and they can end up going either to the left or right. So you have to do some good timing and figure out where and when the water will fall, and make good calculations to when you can make the score. I'm sure there will also be "bonus balls" scattered in the "water-balls" that will be released at a variable time.

EDIT 2: I call this game - Pipeworkx - and the X is shaped like two pipes, which is a central field element to the game.

EDIT 3: If I get this right Dave, can I be on the GDC? hahaha

Lowfategg 26-12-2009 11:56

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Hmmm, looks to me like some sort of mount for a signal device, such as a light.

This would explain why it is made of polycarb and appears to fit into the existing FIRST field setup along with the placement of the mounting holes.

pandamonium 26-12-2009 12:11

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CHI DONG08 (Post 890652)
If soccer balls are the game piece, blue and red soccer balls would match the alliances nicely, but on the field they will have one brand. I don't think they will have a bunch of different brands on the field, but for practice I guess you could use any brand. The FTC hockey pucks last year I think were Franklin. So if we have soccer balls then I'm guessing they would want to use Franklin. Like these

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3540673
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...ductId=3439879

I called the online number and provided the product info to the sales rep He was unable to find this product. Leading us to conclude that it was recently discontinued. In the future do not search for products from google as they can be old links. Although werent the orbit balls discontinued too?

staloch 26-12-2009 12:13

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
i also think that the center piece could be able to slide back and forth along the 2 pipes

ATannahill 26-12-2009 12:16

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I was thinking earlier that this thread has been good about no repeats of ideas. I have been proved wrong. Please read the whole thread or at least search it with the button at the top of the page.

Nin_estarSaerah 26-12-2009 12:32

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetraman (Post 890724)
The clues are way too obvious EVERY year. The problem is, we usually always miss the obviousness.

Usually, Game Hint #1 isn't so obvious. Even when we get it right, it isn't so revealing. Like the Opah "Moonfish" last year, really only told us the "theme" of the game, not much about the field or how it is played. If this is a track, and is so obvious, we may not get another hint.

Beta Version 26-12-2009 12:47

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Why do we assume balls, when we could be easily talking about cylinders.

This "track" idea is pretty nice, however, simply because the track indicates a curve in two coordinates, doesnt mean in needs to be a curved in all three. In fact, a modular rail system like this would actually be a pretty poor choice for a rolling track, every joint is an opportunity for the ball to get hung up.


Sorry about the bad stock image, I cant draw a cylinder in photoshop, but Dave mentioned diet coke cans in his blog, and I thought it apropos.

Instead of a track designed to roll balls on, a game piece we've used too many years in a row, this could be a scoring rack, in which cylinders are placed to score points. It would be a new game piece, not unreasonable, but presenting excellent manipulation engineering challenges.

It could also go along with an earlier discussion on what good real life engineering challenges could turn into games, in which waste management came up, but thats just speculation.

Nin_estarSaerah 26-12-2009 13:11

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Version (Post 890737)
Instead of a track designed to roll balls on, a game piece we've used too many years in a row, this could be a scoring rack, in which cylinders are placed to score points. It would be a new game piece, not unreasonable, but presenting excellent manipulation engineering challenges.

It could also go along with an earlier discussion on what good real life engineering challenges could turn into games, in which waste management came up, but thats just speculation.

I really like this idea, and the point of real life engineering challenges is one we haven't addressed much in this thread.
If this was a scoring rack, the cylinders would still be easy to de-score but probably not as easy as balls. Plus, we have had balls the last 3 years, a change in shape would seem to be in order.

RoboMaster 26-12-2009 13:31

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
A bunch of people have now said that it would be easy to take balls or cylinders off the track idea. I suggest that this isn't the whole part and there might be side rails that keep the object from going off the side.

jerry w 26-12-2009 13:32

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Version (Post 890737)
Why do we assume balls, when we could be easily talking about cylinders.

This "track" idea is pretty nice, however, simply because the track indicates a curve in two coordinates, doesnt mean in needs to be a curved in all three. In fact, a modular rail system like this would actually be a pretty poor choice for a rolling track, every joint is an opportunity for the ball to get hung up.

The angle of the support to the rail indicates that gravity is involved. A sphere is the object that tends to move most easily in response to the force of gravity when placed on a track. If the ball has a firm surface, the small bumps at the joints would have little effect. Once static friction is overcome, the inertia of the rolling ball will take it over the bumps.
So the puzzle here is "where might these rails be placed?":confused:

Chris is me 26-12-2009 13:37

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Perhaps the most obvious answer isn't the correct one? I would not be surprised if this has nothing to do with balls now.

If you put the poles vertically, you could easily hang a ringer or something on the end of the lexan. You could even mount it in a way that the lexan is tipped upward slightly to prevent it sliding. I think the game object will dangle from the tongue.

Can someone tell me what things can fit in or around that tongue easily? Handles for things, maybe? My suitcase I tredged through airports is the first thing that comes to mind, but probably not :P Approximately how wide is the tongue?

Karibou 26-12-2009 14:24

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 890747)
Perhaps the most obvious answer isn't the correct one? I would not be surprised if this has nothing to do with balls now.

Thankkkkk you. I've been feeling like I'm the only one who was thinking this :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me
Can someone tell me what things can fit in or around that tongue easily? Handles for things, maybe? My suitcase I tredged through airports is the first thing that comes to mind, but probably not :P Approximately how wide is the tongue?

A lot of things could fit around that tongue easily, mostly things with handles - suitcases, purses, laptop bags. Things could even be draped across it, like scarves and coats.
Though...assuming that is 1/4" Lexan, there aren't many things that could be draped/hung on it without it snapping.

I feel like the orientation that we've been given is the correct orientation for the piece in the game. The curve at the bottom might just be for some structural aspect. Just throwing that out there.

And for those talking about how things are going out of production after FIRST used them as game pieces - aren't the balls from 2006 still being made?

Bharat Nain 26-12-2009 14:27

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 890758)


A lot of things could fit around that tongue easily, mostly things with handles - suitcases, purses, laptop bags. Things could even be draped across it, like scarves and coats.
Though...assuming that is 1/4" Lexan, there aren't many things that could be draped/hung on it without it snapping.

FRC2010 - The flying purses :p

Beta Version 26-12-2009 14:31

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry w (Post 890746)
The angle of the support to the rail indicates that gravity is involved. A sphere is the object that tends to move most easily in response to the force of gravity when placed on a track. If the ball has a firm surface, the small bumps at the joints would have little effect. Once static friction is overcome, the inertia of the rolling ball will take it over the bumps.

Only if the rails are at an angle downward, but theres no evidence to suggest that. I mean, of course gravity is involved, these objects have mass. All angles on these supports are are normal or orthagonal to the rails, if anything that means that the structure must be either parallel or perpendicular to it's supports and load, meaning it would be level, or straight up and down. Not exactly the best way to design rails you hope balls were slide/roll down. IF this is a rail system, its most likely perfectly level, and therefore designed to hold, not transport the game pieces.

As for problems with how shallow the rails are, I agree that that would make it pretty easy for balls to bounce out. But I dont think the problem would be as bad for cylinders. Furthermore, de-scoring as been part of games in the past.

skimoose 26-12-2009 14:43

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Many people think that this field object is for a rail system that is to hold or convey scoring objects such as balls. What if these rails are part of a system of movable goals? Such as the cars of a roller coaster. Any of these images look familiar?



or



and who says it needs to be used in only one orientation?



As you can see there is also a convenient curve in the bracket between the rails which is similar to that lexan bracket.

Thing2_1723 26-12-2009 14:57

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
One of my friends and i were talking about it and be both thought it looked like some type of sled. However, after reading 19 pages of opinions my brain is about to explode with ideas. I started wondering the refraction showed that the sides are parallel, but not identical. I also really like the "track" idea that people are thinking of, it would make for an interesting game.

One of the advisers on my team is convinced that the game will be impossible to play without the camera and and last year was to figure out how it works for this year.

Eugene Fang 26-12-2009 15:04

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
One thing that strikes me about it being a track for a cart is that the lexan bracket seems like it would get in the way of any wheels holding onto the "backside" of the bars, keeping the "carts" from being pulled off. So, unless the robots had to place carts onto the track (which might make for a kind of boring game), the "carts" would get knocked off easily.

jamie_1930 26-12-2009 15:19

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 890698)
An interesting point was brought up while talking to one of my teammates:

If the game hint is indeed a track where balls are to be scored, it would be too easy to descore them (like in 2003's Stack Attack), whether on purpose or by accident; a simple bump could kick the ball out because the track isn't "deep" enough for the 6" diameter or so balls we're assuming.

True, the GDC could make a rule making it illegal to descore the balls (like the ringers in 2007), but there would be too many incidences of accidental descoring, making it a pain for the referees.

So I'm revising my guess that it's still a track for holding balls, but as a dispenser/autoloader rather than where the robots will be trying to score.

Why not just allow descoring? It was perfectly legal in FIRST Tech Challenge Hot Shot this year.

ATannahill 26-12-2009 15:24

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 890773)
Why not just allow descoring? It was perfectly legal in FIRST Tech Challenge Hot Shot this year.

I do not know all the rules but I believe there is something saying you can't reach out to the 10 point goals or block the 5 point goals by reaching into them or moving them by way of something besides the bar (as I remember that is the only way to remove the balls). So you are only able to descore the 1 point balls.

jamie_1930 26-12-2009 15:27

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetraman (Post 890721)
Consider this: One of the new members of the GDC is from Cirque du Soleil.

If this isn't a Marble track, I don't know what is.


Oh my god it just hit me, Cirque Du Soleil, what if we have a challenge involving having our robots of the ground it's been part of it a FIRST game before and it would certainly be an interesting challenge to lift yourself up.

At Ruckus this year there was a vex competition as well that was based off of a previous FTC game.
http://ruckus.penfieldrobotics.com/vex/

jamie_1930 26-12-2009 15:34

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rtfgnow (Post 890774)
I do not know all the rules but I believe there is something saying you can't reach out to the 10 point goals or block the 5 point goals by reaching into them or moving them by way of something besides the bar (as I remember that is the only way to remove the balls). So you are only able to descore the 1 point balls.

That's what I was talking about, the main point is it's not like FIRST has always condemned the act of descoring an opponents points. It was also allowed in 2007 Rack n Roll, technically it's "negating via the spoiler tubes", but the concept is the same to lower points your opponent previously gained.

keehun 26-12-2009 15:40

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thing2_1723 (Post 890767)
One of the advisers on my team is convinced that the game will be impossible to play without the camera and and last year was to figure out how it works for this year.

That doesn't seem fair to the rookie teams that will be joining this year. FIRST has and always will, I believe, to make the playing field as equal as possible. Last year, it was by adding lowered friction.

jamie_1930 26-12-2009 15:45

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keehun (Post 890777)
That doesn't seem fair to the rookie teams that will be joining this year. FIRST has and always will, I believe, to make the playing field as equal as possible. Last year, it was by adding lowered friction.

That is the downfall of being a rookie team having the experience that veterans have they will always be at an advantage. Rookie teams just need to work harder and think smarter in order to try and level the field themselves.

Also if there is no camera this year than what was the point of introducing it last year photorecognition is something that is very important in robotic systems and I think it would almost be an insult not to include it.

Nin_estarSaerah 26-12-2009 15:49

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I like the idea of having robots off the ground, but I don't think this piece could be used to do it. That was one of the first things I thought about when I saw this, not as a track for balls, but for robots or carts, but because of the orientation of the lexan and the larger tube, it doesn't look like it could really function as a track for anything with wheels.

roller coaster wheels


Tetraman 26-12-2009 15:49

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 890775)
what if we have a challenge involving having our robots of the ground it's been part of it a FIRST game before and it would certainly be an interesting challenge to lift yourself up.

Considering last year there was a floor change, what if this year...we aren't allowed to use the floor AT ALL, and must move robots around on rails.

TEntwistle 26-12-2009 16:15

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
A few comments - if the lexan piece were to hold or act as a hanger for game pieces, there is no reason for the holes that have been placed in it. These look like they are designed to attach it to something in a permanent fashion

In my brief experience with FIRST, and in reading about the older games, I feel that the GDC goes into exsquisite detail as they plan for every year. I think that they make game design and rules not only to change the format every year, but also to level the playing field. With Overdrive, blocking an opponent was forbidden, but has not been in many other years. With Overdrive, blocking would have made the game too easy for a defensive strategy to dominate. With Lunacy, not allowing expansion of the robot outside of the basic configuration limited the efficacy of scoring and prevented blocking shots on your trailer.

Therefore, the methods of scoring and allowance (or disallowance) of de-scoring will be based more on what it will take to have a multi-facted game - one in which multiple game strategies and thus robot designs can flourish. Otherwise, everyone will make the same robot, drive it the same way, and be bored to tears.

JaneYoung 26-12-2009 16:53

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keehun (Post 890777)
That doesn't seem fair to the rookie teams that will be joining this year. FIRST has and always will, I believe, to make the playing field as equal as possible. Last year, it was by adding lowered friction.

That's interesting. Is there a link that you can provide that supports this statement?

GGCO 26-12-2009 16:58

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I really don't think it's FIRST's job to make the playing field "more equal".... and they definitely didn't do that with the regolith - it was a challenge for both veterans and rookies - each year EVERYONE has the same chance at greatness.

If anything the cRIO made things "more equal".

Karibou 26-12-2009 17:03

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 890778)
That is the downfall of being a rookie team having the experience that veterans have they will always be at an advantage. Rookie teams just need to work harder and think smarter in order to try and level the field themselves.

Also if there is no camera this year than what was the point of introducing it last year photorecognition is something that is very important in robotic systems and I think it would almost be an insult not to include it.

You make a very good point about it being an insult to not include the camera, although I believe that you may have interpreted the comment wrong. It was said that a mentor believed that the game would be impossible to play without the camera, and that last year was supposed to be training on how to use it. A point about that not being fair to rookie teams was brought up - never saying that the camera wouldn't be used.

You're also right in saying that rookie teams will always be at a disadvantage. No matter how much of a bang you start out with, you'll almost never be able to compete on the same level as many of the seasoned veterans, some with more than 10 years of experience (there are exceptions, though). However, some effort must be made to level the field, for the sake of the rookies. While rookie teams do indeed need to work a bit harder and think a bit smarter to bring themselves up to par, they would be at a huge disadvantage if no effort was made to level the playing field. In addition to working harder and smarter, they're also still in the process of figuring out what the heck they're doing. Blazing one new trail is hard and stressful enough, but it puts you at an extreme disadvantage when your competition doesn't have to blaze any. There will always be new problems to solve, and different challenges to complete.

Now, back to that game hint.

Chris is me 26-12-2009 17:05

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keehun (Post 890777)
That doesn't seem fair to the rookie teams that will be joining this year. FIRST has and always will, I believe, to make the playing field as equal as possible. Last year, it was by adding lowered friction.

This post from back around Julyish may be of some relevance to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 859569)
I am going to challenge one of the basic premises of this thread. It has been stated already in this thread (and several others) that one of the purposes for the changes incorporated into the 2009 game is to "level the playing field to close the have/have-not gap" for the teams.

Says who?

Can anyone show me where this assertion has been stated by any credible source?

Like so many other things, the "need to level the playing field" argument is urban myth. And like most urban myths, it is simply not true. While there are many, many factors that are considered during the design of a FRC game (some of which are obvious to teams, but many of which are not), I can state categorically that particular issue was never a consideration.

And if "leveling the playing field to close the gap" was not one of the intended effects of the game, then I am not sure why we are debating whether that gap was successfully narrowed or not.

-dave



.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 890792)
You make a very good point about it being an insult to not include the camera, although I believe that you may have interpreted the comment wrong. It was said that a mentor believed that the game would be impossible to play without the camera, and that last year was supposed to be training on how to use it. A point about that not being fair to rookie teams was brought up - never saying that the camera wouldn't be used.


Where do you guys get the idea that the camera won't be included? It's confirmed for the Rookie kits.

Mark Holschuh 26-12-2009 17:20

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Back in early December, I believe Dave Lavery posted a story that included loganberries and passion fruit (red and green balls perhaps?) and a stick. Before that we know that the GDC spent some time contemplating their Haagen-Daz ice cream cups. Now we see a bracket that perhaps carries balls to or from the playing field.

Perhaps we are playing billiards this year. Perhaps teams may be able to use a camera to help line up their shots. And perhaps the autonomous mode will be used for a 'break.'

Or perhaps I'm completely off, like I have been every other year.

ahecht 26-12-2009 17:52

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by skimoose (Post 890763)
and who says it needs to be used in only one orientation?



As you can see there is also a convenient curve in the bracket between the rails which is similar to that lexan bracket.

I wouldn't use that model of rollercoaster as an example of ANYTHING. The Zamperla Volare (called the "Flying Coaster" at Elich Gardens and "Time Warp" and "Tomb Raider: The Ride" at Canada's Wonderland) is one of the most poorly engineered rides I've ever ridden.

Karibou 26-12-2009 18:41

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Holschuh (Post 890795)
Back in early December, I believe Dave Lavery posted a story that included loganberries and passion fruit (red and green balls perhaps?) and a stick.

Yummm, loganberries. The berries are delicious, and so is the drink (my family has about 10 2-liters of it sitting in the basement right now).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me
Where do you guys get the idea that the camera won't be included? It's confirmed for the Rookie kits.

I never said that it wouldn't be :/

Randy Picolet 26-12-2009 18:47

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I think I've read all the posts so far, and I don't recall anyone pointing out that the reason for the lexan bracket might be for electrical characteristics, rather than transparency.

I also haven't seen anyone suggest that the opposing holes on the ears of the bracket might make good mounts for a roller, which if of an appropriate diameter, could be used to sense (or even less likely, propel) a ball rolling along a track. This sensing could then be used either for scoring or as a trigger to operate some other mechanism.

In any case, I can't conceive of a reason for a structural member to be made of lexan. To me, it suggests a bracket for holding some kind of electronics. The steel pipes would then be plenty strong enough for field use, as in Overdrive, which used the same basic connector pin technique to construct the overpass and lane divider.

My $2/100.

Pausert 26-12-2009 19:04

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I think that as we all try to guess at the game it's important to remember the new Coopertition award and how you win it:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Section 5
The Coopertition™ Award celebrates the team that best demonstrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition


rulesall2 26-12-2009 19:14

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kgzak (Post 890492)
after viewing 340x4xLife's post I think that they put some type of mechanism to return the balls to one spot, or recycle the balls to field. This would require high goals in order for the mechanism to work (gravity) = Idea 4.


Quote:

Originally Posted by joeweber (Post 890658)
Here is the game we will play

I have been reading this forever, and about a quarter of the way through (my hour long quest...) i came to he conclusion of a gumball machine. Teams are supposed to herd balls into a certain spot and it would be lifted upward into a funnel, much like one of those spiraling coin things, where the goal would be get as many of your colored balls through the hole in the funnel in the 2:30 time period you have. You could control the game by either scoring balls or herding the other teams, to prevent scoring. The hint is the piece of the elevator that would lift the ball. (The gumball machine isn't conventional, but rather one of the fancy ones you see in the mall)



GGCO 26-12-2009 19:41

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pausert (Post 890817)
I think that as we all try to guess at the game it's important to remember the new Coopertition award and how you win it:

The Coopertition™ Award celebrates the team that best demonstrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition

Come on. Remember those points last year that were designed to penalize teams that did really well?? This is just like it, but WAY worse - it's just going to encourage teams to deliberately lose or let their opponents score on them at the end of a match. (both of which occurred last year at Michigan district events)

Teams should be rewarded for winning, and if they play unethically then I can guarantee that FRC teams would notice. But the same goes if they demonstrate gracious professionalism. Speaking of GP, what is the difference of this and the GP award?:confused:

zakthemac 26-12-2009 19:50

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
those sound like great ideas!

They look as if they lock in with each other, what if its a hint like last year about hitch... i mean what if its used to lanch... like drop a ball down a ramp in to something.

Id hate to say this but what if its a part to the chasey and its a water game?

Steve W 26-12-2009 20:23

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
FIRST loves listening to our ideas. I see the rails as holders for netting. This netting would be to hold the bean bags that are to be used in this years game. It's been a while since the floppies and they are due for a return.

keehun 26-12-2009 21:42

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
My comment about the cameras was that I find it hard to believe FIRST will ever force teams to use the camera. I've heard of stories where even 10yr+ seasoned veterans (with great resources, I might add) had trouble using the camera because of lighting conditions and whatnot. Also in respect to cameras... With the new Classmate PCs as driver stations, it may change a lot of things...

Jon Jack 26-12-2009 22:16

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keehun (Post 890902)
My comment about the cameras was that I find it hard to believe FIRST will ever force teams to use the camera. I've heard of stories where even 10yr+ seasoned veterans (with great resources, I might add) had trouble using the camera because of lighting conditions and whatnot. Also in respect to cameras... With the new Classmate PCs as driver stations, it may change a lot of things...

Cameras are very sensitive to lighting conditions, which in turn makes them very difficult to use. Conditions vary from a team's workshop to the different regional events to the championships.

I'd even be willing to bet that camera values would change throughout the day in a place like the Georgia Dome where weather conditions outside can greatly effect lighting conditions inside.

jamie_1930 26-12-2009 22:30

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keehun (Post 890902)
My comment about the cameras was that I find it hard to believe FIRST will ever force teams to use the camera. I've heard of stories where even 10yr+ seasoned veterans (with great resources, I might add) had trouble using the camera because of lighting conditions and whatnot. Also in respect to cameras... With the new Classmate PCs as driver stations, it may change a lot of things...

Any team that didnt calibrate at competiton brought that on themselves, and the best thing to do was have it calibrated before at each match. Are team didn't but that was because we didn't end up using it because of complications but the time given to set each robot should allow, with a well oiled drive team, for proper calibration.

Jon Jack 26-12-2009 22:43

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 890907)
Any team that didnt calibrate at competiton brought that on themselves, and the best thing to do was have it calibrated before at each match. Are team didn't but that was because we didn't end up using it because of complications but the time given to set each robot should allow, with a well oiled drive team, for proper calibration.

I saw several teams try to calibrate during Thursday in Atlanta. I don't think the issue is teams not calibrating their cameras. The problem is the variance between venues, especially between regional venues and the Georgia Dome.

Plus how can you set your robot, turn it on and calibrate your camera in the couple of minutes you have on the field before a match?


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