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-   -   [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1 (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79453)

apalrd 26-12-2009 22:46

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
That's why they gave teams a lighted target in '06 and '07. '05 had a camera too, but it proved to be too sensitive to light to work since the target was not lit and the plastic reflected differently at different angles.

As for the new laptops and the cRio, yes they change things for some teams, but we could have a laptop Dashboard last year too. If the dashboard video has little lag, it would be possible for them to allow us to look through the robot's eyes or make it advantageous to do so.

Back to the render, it is possible the reflections/colored Lexan indicate that we will have skewed/otherwise not clear vision from the driver stations, and must look through the robot's camera or rely on the robot sensors more than before for decision making. What would be really interesting is if the GDC replaced the clear plastic on the Driver Stations with black plastic (so all decision making is based only on robot sensor feedback to the drivers) or colored it so blue/red game pieces looked the same to the drivers (so the robot must tell the difference).

Kickoff is coming soon, we will know how this relates to the game then and it will seem all too obvious to us what this is.

Chris is me 26-12-2009 22:51

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GGCO (Post 890854)
Come on. Remember those points last year that were designed to penalize teams that did really well?? This is just like it, but WAY worse - it's just going to encourage teams to deliberately lose or let their opponents score on them at the end of a match. (both of which occurred last year at Michigan district events)

That's a ridiculous assumption (and in my mind, completely uncalled for). You're criticizing something none of us know anything about because you think it might be like an unpopular rule from the previous year. You don't even know what Coopertition points are.

I've got to ask you where you've read that the definition of coopertition is "punishing the teams that do well" and "rewarding teams who score for their opponents", because I've heard a bunch of people claim "coopertition is scoring for your opponent!" when that goes against everything I've ever heard the word used for. Scoring on your opponent isn't coopertition at all, it was (in 2009) a move motivated entirely for each team's self interest (not getting a <g14>) and had nothing to do with coopertition.

Note: I've always understood coopertition to be fiercely competing on the field, and assisting and working together off the field, going hand in hand with gracious professionalism. If I'm completely off base, someone correct me please.

Quote:

Speaking of GP, what is the difference of this and the GP award?:confused:
Maybe you should wait to find out what the award is before you very harshly criticize it...

fuzzy1718 26-12-2009 23:11

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
[quote=zakthemac;890864]

They look as if they lock in with each other...[quote]


That is my thought exactly, like on the legs of a pop-up canopy or adjustable crutches. I think this is only one piece though, and the part that locks with it isnt shown... just a thought

dang it I messed up the quote... how does that work again?

Akash Rastogi 26-12-2009 23:12

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
LOL,


as always, please try to read at least parts of the whole thread before you post something redundant.

Thanks,
The Management (no not really of course)

jamie_1930 26-12-2009 23:34

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Jack (Post 890908)
I saw several teams try to calibrate during Thursday in Atlanta. I don't think the issue is teams not calibrating their cameras. The problem is the variance between venues, especially between regional venues and the Georgia Dome.

Plus how can you set your robot, turn it on and calibrate your camera in the couple of minutes you have on the field before a match?

You need to read the entire post or atleast understand it, what I said was that teams need to calibrate their cameras and if they do so and AT THE VENUE their currently competing at there should be less problems then would have occured if they had just stuck the camera on with the same settings they had back in the shop. The cameras require constant calibration you can't asume that what worked at RIT will work at Atlanta or what worked yesterday will work today

Eugene Fang 26-12-2009 23:45

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 890921)
You need to read the entire post or atleast understand it, what I said was that teams need to calibrate their cameras and if they do so and AT THE VENUE their currently competing at there should be less problems then would have occured if they had just stuck the camera on with the same settings they had back in the shop. The cameras require constant calibration you can't asume that what worked at RIT will work at Atlanta or what worked yesterday will work today

Well one problem about the lighting in the Georgia Dome is the semi-translucent tarp that is the ceiling. In different times of day, the lighting inside changes.

And let's all go back to talking about the game hint please. :D

jamie_1930 26-12-2009 23:51

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 890912)
That's a ridiculous assumption (and in my mind, completely uncalled for). You're criticizing something none of us know anything about because you think it might be like an unpopular rule from the previous year. You don't even know what Coopertition points are.

I've got to ask you where you've read that the definition of coopertition is "punishing the teams that do well" and "rewarding teams who score for their opponents", because I've heard a bunch of people claim "coopertition is scoring for your opponent!" when that goes against everything I've ever heard the word used for. Scoring on your opponent isn't coopertition at all, it was (in 2009) a move motivated entirely for each team's self interest (not getting a <g14>) and had nothing to do with coopertition.

Note: I've always understood coopertition to be fiercely competing on the field, and assisting and working together off the field, going hand in hand with gracious professionalism. If I'm completely off base, someone correct me please.



Maybe you should wait to find out what the award is before you very harshly criticize it...

I believe this all stems from a misinterpretation of the award. In my opinion the award is meant to award teams that care more about a fair game, or that go out of their way to help an opponent with technical difficulties (similiar to veteran teams helping rookie teams make their bots functional). Although I agree with ggdoc, that last years "leveling" rule is complete bull, I don't think that the coopertiton award is there to award teams who back down from winning or lessen their abilities to allow other teams feel good about themselves.

Akash Rastogi 27-12-2009 00:06

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
If you guys feel like talking about that award, go make another thread please. Keep this thread on track.

<sarcasm> HA. Get it? Track? HA... because of the game hint! Ha hahaha....HA. Bahahaha. Oh I'm too funny.
</sarcasm>


But no really, go make a new thread if you're going to go on a tangent please.

Steven Sigley 27-12-2009 00:07

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Here's my idea of the 2010 game based on the hint, my own crazy thoughts and some talk on here.



On the red alliance side there are 2 red robots and 1 blue robot.

On the blue alliance side there are 2 blue robots and 1 red robot.

Pipes on the top allow the individual robot to steal soccer balls and give them to it's teammates on the other side of the barrier.
Balls start on the side and back of the field. they CAN be removed from the goals by the individual robot.

At the end of the round tally up the balls in a teams goals to determine the winner.

Tetraman 27-12-2009 00:36

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 890926)
If you guys feel like talking about that award, go make another thread please. Keep this thread on track.

<sarcasm> HA. Get it? Track? HA... because of the game hint! Ha hahaha....HA. Bahahaha. Oh I'm too funny.
</sarcasm>


But no really, go make a new thread if you're going to go on a tangent please.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but the game hint threads always end up like this. No one goes though the rest of the discussed ideas, and the topic can change. And in my opinion, it doesn't matter all that much, it's the game hint thread - it's bound to be full of entropy reguardless if everyone stays on topic.

Culvan Van Li 27-12-2009 01:12

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Back to the hint at hand...

I was really hoping the game this year would be some variation of stacking milk crates. I'm beginning to doubt that will be it.

There is one thing I haven't seen mentioned, the pipe wall thickness looks really thin. I don't think this is a structural component at all.

It clearly goes between two other parts (with the spring loaded connectors) on the ends. I suspect those other parts will come all the way up to the middle larger pipe and that there won't be a lip. The fact that they recessed the screws holding the lexan leads me to believe that they intended for something to ride through this without catching on screwheads. It seems likely that this is a track for a round object to roll on, but the object would have to be light. Because this isn't structural, I'd be guessing that this part is for putting balls on the field or taking them off. If it is for taking them off then the extra 4 holes are probably for mounting a score counting mechanism. If it's for putting them into the field then it's probably going to have a mechanism to regulate timing or rate of ball input.

I doubt the GDC would give out a significant portion of the gamefield in a single clue. The 2007 clue was a spider foot. It was important, but it wasn't enough to make any solid guesses about the game. This clue seems to have a lot more information, so I'm guessing it's used less (than the spider feet) in the actual game.

Andy

Chris is me 27-12-2009 01:24

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Culvan Van Li (Post 890938)
I doubt the GDC would give out a significant portion of the gamefield in a single clue. The 2007 clue was a spider foot. It was important, but it wasn't enough to make any solid guesses about the game. This clue seems to have a lot more information, so I'm guessing it's used less (than the spider feet) in the actual game.

You could actually use the reflection of the blue around the leg to extrapolate that the game used inner tubes. Someone even made a render of it....

The pipe being consistent with what's on FIRST fields leads me to believe it's part of the field... but what if it isn't???

keehun 27-12-2009 01:33

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Sigley (Post 890927)
Here's my idea of the 2010 game based on the hint, my own crazy thoughts and some talk on here.



On the red alliance side there are 2 red robots and 1 blue robot.

On the blue alliance side there are 2 blue robots and 1 red robot.

Pipes on the top allow the individual robot to steal soccer balls and give them to it's teammates on the other side of the barrier.
Balls start on the side and back of the field. they CAN be removed from the goals by the individual robot.

At the end of the round tally up the balls in a teams goals to determine the winner.

That's a really cool image. I haven't been in FIRST long enough to know GDC's personality, but nonetheless, I think it's a cool idea.

Just wondering if GDC would ever partition a field like that that's impassable? Though in the context of your game idea, it completely makes sense.

gallo26 27-12-2009 02:08

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Sigley (Post 890927)
Here's my idea of the 2010 game based on the hint, my own crazy thoughts and some talk on here.



On the red alliance side there are 2 red robots and 1 blue robot.

On the blue alliance side there are 2 blue robots and 1 red robot.

Pipes on the top allow the individual robot to steal soccer balls and give them to it's teammates on the other side of the barrier.
Balls start on the side and back of the field. they CAN be removed from the goals by the individual robot.

At the end of the round tally up the balls in a teams goals to determine the winner.

I agree, that's a very nice picture you did there. It makes perfect sense really. Very cool. Good job! :cool:

It would be pretty neat if that field wasn't blocked off in the middle (I believe it is unless I misunderstood what you said) But there were 2 sliding panels on each of those two walls. They would have a program like 2008 that would randomize the walls. Only 3 would be visible (2 would slide next to each other like normal glass sliding doors) And block visibility and mobility of robots. Creating a maze.

Just some random thoughts. FIRST might go back to a randomizer. The control system has gotten smarter, and the camera can track more. So its possible that a random start would be some part of the 2010 game.

Steven Sigley 27-12-2009 03:09

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallo26 (Post 890941)
I agree, that's a very nice picture you did there. It makes perfect sense really. Very cool. Good job! :cool:

It would be pretty neat if that field wasn't blocked off in the middle (I believe it is unless I misunderstood what you said) But there were 2 sliding panels on each of those two walls. They would have a program like 2008 that would randomize the walls. Only 3 would be visible (2 would slide next to each other like normal glass sliding doors) And block visibility and mobility of robots. Creating a maze.

Just some random thoughts. FIRST might go back to a randomizer. The control system has gotten smarter, and the camera can track more. So its possible that a random start would be some part of the 2010 game.

Thanks I made it in Sketchup. Yeah sliding walls would be really cool too, you'd have to be sure the walls are solid though cause speeding robot vs. walls flexible enough to move could be bad. But if it was structurally sound then that would be awesome.

HashemReza 27-12-2009 03:40

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Personally, I think it's pointless to hypothesize with just THIS piece of the puzzle. The fact that the image is named "game hint 1" leads me to believe there will be more. It's like hypothesizing what a car will look like when you only have the front headlights.

Sorry, terrible representation. Basically, I'm going to take a break for a few days until another hint comes, then maybe I'll look at the BOTH. Can't have a line with just 1 point of data ;)

alectronic 27-12-2009 03:47

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallo26 (Post 890941)
Just some random thoughts. FIRST might go back to a randomizer. The control system has gotten smarter, and the camera can track more. So its possible that a random start would be some part of the 2010 game.

I believe that there will for sure be a randomizer for some part of the field. considering all of the potential yet to be unleashed in the control sys, plus what we have been talking about in this thread about camera calibration and the new dashboard/DS, I would feel confident with that guess. What if this piece (the hint) is compatible with multiple types of game pieces, and that is what the randomizer decides?

Gary.C 27-12-2009 04:58

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I also think that it is pointless to hypothesize about the game hint, because no one is going to build a robot beforehand of these ideas. It will probably be obvious once we know the game but we will not realize it now. Nevertheless it is a game hint...

jamie_1930 27-12-2009 08:05

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CHI DONG08 (Post 890945)
I also think that it is pointless to hypothesize about the game hint, because no one is going to build a robot beforehand of these ideas. It will probably be obvious once we know the game but we will not realize it now. Nevertheless it is a game hint...

It's mainly entertainment thinking about the clues, and hey you have countless nerds here with a severe obsession for robots and with the clues it gives something to hold them over before they go nuts, or at least that's me. And if you find a team building their robot based off of this thread I need to talk to them.

jholman 27-12-2009 12:35

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Remind me again. Why do we let the GDC hold us captive to these hints year after year? Oh well I'm just going to try to forget about it and wait 2 weeks to see what the actual game is.

nathanww 27-12-2009 13:28

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Because it's a fun challenge. Kind of like Sudoku, but with lexan and evil geniuses.

A few ideas I had:

Dave's morse code hint could possibly be decoded as "Everything is not as it appears"(which usually refers to visual perception)
The hint is in Morse code(a communication system)
The CAD render contains a reflection, possibly of another field element(which could be considered a form of visual relay/communication)
The new control system and field elements this year will support much richer telemetry from the robot

Therefore, I'm thinking that these hints might be pointing on an increased reliance on visual feedback and robot telemetetry. However, I'm inclined to think that if this is true, the emphasis is going to be more on robot-to-robot communications and vision processing. Just plain "let's drive the robot using the camera" is not very programmatically interesting or spectator-friendly.

Looking at the hint more literally, I'm reminded of this resturant that uses a suspended track system to deliver food to customers. Cracker Jacks and Haagen-Daaz cups or food. So maybe this is part of a system to drop game pieces down from the ceiling. Hmmm...

Or it could just be, you know, the whole field.

TEntwistle 27-12-2009 15:22

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
A few recent posts have suggested that there is little purpose to guessing about the game hint (an old idea, BTW - mentioned a few days ago). However, it is a chance to get people excited about the game, and a chance to start strategizing/brainstorming. I have alsready started to think about what I would want to do if this game is played on rails, if it requires sorting balls by color, if it uses small (tennis ball sized) game pieces, if it requires a camera due to limited visibility, and now what to do if the field is partitioned. This may be the biggest value of the game hint - the ideas you thinnk of to tackle one issue may be the best way to conquer the real game, even though your imagined problem has nothing to do with the real problem.

Like JVN has said numerous times. there is no stupid idea in a brainstorming session. The student who asks that we have a robot that can fly will encourage someone else to think of the game-winning strategy. So I would encourage others to keep throwing out ideas, not matter how stupid (except for flying robots), but suggest that we keep it focused on the hint and game, and read prior posts (or search) to minimize pure repitition.

GBilletdeaux930 27-12-2009 17:23

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned but I came across this as I was reading through some old blogs from Bill.

(This is in Section 5-Rev A pertaining to the new Coopertition Award)

"The Coopertition Award celebrates the team that best demostrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition (See Section 9 for details about Coopertition bonus points)."

I'm thinking that means that teams will have their own score that they continue to add to after every match...

Sorry this doesn't quite relate to the first hint but it's about the game overall...

TEntwistle 27-12-2009 17:59

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GBilletdeaux930 (Post 891003)
"The Coopertition Award celebrates the team that best demostrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition

My guess is that these points will be unrelated to game play (directly) but maybe given in the pits, or by judges who see teams not running up the score, or something else like that. Maybe it will be related to teams that win high scoring games by both teams. There was some mention of this on the FIRST website in reference to last year, about how coopertition was demonstrated by everyone scoring, and that it was better to win a high scoring game than to keep your opponent to low score (very much paraphrasing). If this is true, then this year's game may have very little defense within it, or they may discourage defense as the primary means of winning. My take on Overdrive was this was intended to be an offense-oriented game. I expect the same this year

Beta Version 27-12-2009 18:05

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by keehun (Post 890940)
That's a really cool image. I haven't been in FIRST long enough to know GDC's personality, but nonetheless, I think it's a cool idea.

Just wondering if GDC would ever partition a field like that that's impassable? Though in the context of your game idea, it completely makes sense.

I know that they are considered seperate, but VEX had a partitioned field this season, it apparently was an exciting game.

Chris is me 27-12-2009 18:14

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TEntwistle (Post 891005)
My guess is that these points will be unrelated to game play (directly) but maybe given in the pits, or by judges who see teams not running up the score, or something else like that. Maybe it will be related to teams that win high scoring games by both teams. There was some mention of this on the FIRST website in reference to last year, about how coopertition was demonstrated by everyone scoring, and that it was better to win a high scoring game than to keep your opponent to low score (very much paraphrasing). If this is true, then this year's game may have very little defense within it, or they may discourage defense as the primary means of winning. My take on Overdrive was this was intended to be an offense-oriented game. I expect the same this year

This is already present in the Ranking Score / Strength of Scheduling system in place.

TEntwistle 27-12-2009 18:44

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 891010)
This is already present in the Ranking Score / Strength of Scheduling system in place.

Quite right. I just was wondering if is a double jeopardy kind of situation - low opponents score hurts you in quality points and in coopertition award standings.

jerry w 27-12-2009 19:31

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jholman (Post 890965)
Remind me again. Why do we let the GDC hold us captive to these hints year after year? Oh well I'm just going to try to forget about it and wait 2 weeks to see what the actual game is.

Don't wimp out!! :mad:
Get back in here and help solve this puzzle. We almost had the game described before kickoff last year. The puzzle solving can be just as exciting as creating a design during the six weeks.
We will solve this before kick off. we just need people to think how this picture fits into a game having similar rules from all previous. Yet the game WILL be different.
;)

ATannahill 27-12-2009 19:36

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry w (Post 891040)
The puzzle solving can be just as exciting as creating a design during the six weeks.

But we need to rest up for the six weeks. The puzzle just takes away from our sleep time.

jerry w 27-12-2009 19:38

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Gallo,
Are you going to adjust your drawing so that we can see a reflection due to an angle between rails and mounting tab?
I would like to know what angle gives us the reflection seen in the clue.

Jerry

TEntwistle 27-12-2009 20:01

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rtfgnow (Post 891044)
But we need to rest up for the six weeks. The puzzle just takes away from our sleep time.

Sleep is for the weak

ttldomination 27-12-2009 20:08

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TEntwistle (Post 891056)
Sleep is for the weak

Coffee and M&Ms are for the strong. :cool:

Karibou 27-12-2009 20:25

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rtfgnow (Post 891044)
But we need to rest up for the six weeks. The puzzle just takes away from our sleep time.

Sleep? What's that?

I don't know what you're talking about with coffee and M&Ms; Mountain Dew is where it's at XD

R.C. 27-12-2009 20:38

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ttldomination (Post 891062)
Coffee and M&Ms are for the strong. :cool:

Lol, Mountain Dew and Taco Bell. Nom Nom Nom.

-RC

BrendanB 27-12-2009 20:43

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Hot pockets and Mountain Dew. It's how i survive the long dreary days of build.

I say wait until more hints come out to even discuss this any more. There is a certain point which we have hit where you begin to ask, "What more is there?"

brendan

Steve W 27-12-2009 21:52

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Karibou (Post 891071)
Mountain Dew is where it's at XD

Not in Canada. No caffeine in that sugar induced comma drink.

Akash Rastogi 27-12-2009 21:56

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve W (Post 891127)
Not in Canada. No caffeine in that sugar induced comma drink.

That's how you starve braincells.

gallo26 27-12-2009 23:04

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry w (Post 891045)
Gallo,
Are you going to adjust your drawing so that we can see a reflection due to an angle between rails and mounting tab?
I would like to know what angle gives us the reflection seen in the clue.

Jerry

I've tried everything. But that reflection is NOT from the part shown in the hint. It's just not possible from what is visible. The GDC will send out something so obvious as a hint, but they'll take it and make sure it's confusing.

I seriously believe that they rendered it from the full playing field. They made everything invisible that connects to the part shown. When they added the background, they moved the XZ plane to a certain height. In Inventor, that plane will cut off everything below it when rendered. Therefore, you get natural reflections without showing everything. They have custom lighting which I cannot replicate. That lighting is what put that funny reflection of another pole, and that blue tint on everything. Its either a light going through an plastic object like an inner tube from 2007, or some other clear blue object.

Either way... the second and hopefully third clue will help us all to pinpoint the ideas written on this thread, and we'll be able to predict the game from it.

Eugene Fang 27-12-2009 23:16

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallo26 (Post 891135)
I've tried everything. But that reflection is NOT from the part shown in the hint. It's just not possible from what is visible. The GDC will send out something so obvious as a hint, but they'll take it and make sure it's confusing.

Yeah, I didn't think it was physically possible to have that reflection from the part that we can see.

I have a question though. Why is the reflected image very close to the size of the pipes, assuming the reflected pipe isn't huge in reality? Can someone confirm/deny that when an image is rendered in Inventor with "Perspective Mode" off, that the reflections don't scale properly either?

KRUNCH DUDE 27-12-2009 23:17

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
While looking at the hint i noticed something. Its design was awkward in the way of its design. The curve in the back and the poles gave me an idea so
I rotated it and here is a crummy MS paint version of what it could be....:D
http://www.teamkrunch.com/Team_Media/Sideways.jpg

AcesJames 27-12-2009 23:22

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Oh man....I just realized something

That picture rotated looks like a ladder. Chutes and ladders. Ladders look like train tracks when laid down flat, and the hint looks like part of a ladder/chute mechanism to hold and raise/lower balls.

KRUNCH DUDE 27-12-2009 23:36

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AcesJames (Post 891138)
Oh man....I just realized something

That picture rotated looks like a ladder. Chutes and ladders. Ladders look like train tracks when laid down flat, and the hint looks like part of a ladder/chute mechanism to hold and raise/lower balls.

possible but its not flexible so it could be like 2007 but with balls

gallo26 27-12-2009 23:39

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 891136)
Yeah, I didn't think it was physically possible to have that reflection from the part that we can see.

I have a question though. Why is the reflected image very close to the size of the pipes, assuming the reflected pipe isn't huge in reality? Can someone confirm/deny that when an image is rendered in Inventor with "Perspective Mode" off, that the reflections don't scale properly either?

That sometimes happens. The part could be right out of our view. We're not sure. But that part could also be far away. If it was HUGE it could have thus scaled properly.

Eugene Fang 27-12-2009 23:47

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallo26 (Post 891141)
That sometimes happens. The part could be right out of our view. We're not sure. But that part could also be far away. If it was HUGE it could have thus scaled properly.

Well to me, perspective mode seems like it's turned off. So then we can't tell how far away the reflected object is either, right?

DMetalKong 28-12-2009 00:03

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Could be nothing, but what if impossible reflection + Dave's morse code = reference to MC Escher? It would be fun to play on a field like this:

nighterfighter 28-12-2009 00:09

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DMetalKong (Post 891146)
Could be nothing, but what if impossible reflection + Dave's morse code = reference to MC Escher? It would be fun to play on a field like this:

Ahh! How do we build that field? ;_;

Cooley744 28-12-2009 00:11

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Warning: Drivers might experience motion sickness...

apalrd 28-12-2009 00:13

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DMetalKong (Post 891146)
Could be nothing, but what if impossible reflection + Dave's morse code = reference to MC Escher? It would be fun to play on a field like this:

It would be better if they actually modified gravity so the robots orientation was always messed up. Or the goals could be sticking out on various angles so you have to be able to orient the game piece in many different positions to score.

artdutra04 28-12-2009 00:16

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gallo26 (Post 891135)
I've tried everything. But that reflection is NOT from the part shown in the hint. It's just not possible from what is visible. The GDC will send out something so obvious as a hint, but they'll take it and make sure it's confusing.

I seriously believe that they rendered it from the full playing field. They made everything invisible that connects to the part shown. When they added the background, they moved the XZ plane to a certain height. In Inventor, that plane will cut off everything below it when rendered. Therefore, you get natural reflections without showing everything. They have custom lighting which I cannot replicate. That lighting is what put that funny reflection of another pole, and that blue tint on everything. Its either a light going through an plastic object like an inner tube from 2007, or some other clear blue object.

Either way... the second and hopefully third clue will help us all to pinpoint the ideas written on this thread, and we'll be able to predict the game from it.

I'm 95% sure (it's good enough for Adrian Monk ;)) that the reflections are entirely from this sub assembly shown in the game hint and nothing else, and that the angles of the polycarbonate part are exactly perpendicular.


R.C. 28-12-2009 00:49

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Great Job Art,

Very interesting... Btw just curious, all the models of the game hint drawn by different people or are they shared?

-RC

Chris is me 28-12-2009 01:04

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
So a robot could hang from that thing and it wouldn't break? o.0

I think my purse game piece idea might be catching on :P

artdutra04 28-12-2009 01:34

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
1 Attachment(s)
Using the official game hint photo, and the fact that the bronze polycarbonate piece was most likely 1/4", I was able to extrapolate all other dimensions from the pixels. (30.8 isometric pixels ~ one inch). Most dimensions are pretty accurate, but take 'em with a grain of salt. Here's the quick and dirty Solidworks files:

Eugene Fang 28-12-2009 01:35

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 891150)
I'm 95% sure (it's good enough for Adrian Monk ;)) that the reflections are entirely from this sub assembly shown in the game hint and nothing else, and that the angles of the polycarbonate part are exactly perpendicular.


Very nice. But what about that one odd-angled reflection on the original? Or am I missing it on your reverse-engineered part?

artdutra04 28-12-2009 01:49

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 891158)
Very nice. But what about that one odd-angled reflection on the original? Or am I missing it on your reverse-engineered part?

I'm guessing that one odd angle reflection is actually an artifact of Inventor's crisp shadows versus Solidworks' "feathery" shadows. In the reverse engineered render, there's a faint shadow at approximately the same location and angle (actually at a slightly higher angle, but that may be from a difference in the location of the lights more than anything).

Akash Rastogi 28-12-2009 03:19

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Reminder

My one word theory for this hint: Autoloading

Go nuts

GaryVoshol 28-12-2009 06:33

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve W (Post 891127)
Not in Canada. No caffeine in that sugar induced comma drink.

What? Sacrilege! You can keep your public health system if it means Decaf Dew.

fsgond 28-12-2009 07:36

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Upon doing an image comparison search on the internet I found a lot of pictures of eye glasses. What it means, who knows.

That is just my 2 cents

TEntwistle 28-12-2009 09:12

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 891150)
I'm 95% sure (it's good enough for Adrian Monk ;)) that the reflections are entirely from this sub assembly shown in the game hint and nothing else, and that the angles of the polycarbonate part are exactly perpendicular.


Excellent job on the reverse engineering. It appears to me that the shadow nobody can explain appears on your 50% transparency render. Is there any reason why this should be? Does it suggest that it is indeed coming from this piece and not from somewhere else? Would the fact that you had to render it with 50% transparency be part of the clue itself? I and others have suggested that maybe there will be an element to the game that will limit or alter visibility for the drive team. That would fit in well with the notion that the camera will become more important this year. Why have they given us a Classmate PC to use this year? My guess is so we can (or will have to) navigate the robot based on a camera image, and that we need the capability for real-time (within a few msec, or whatever the technology can give us) video to compete.

ALIBI 28-12-2009 10:43

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Has anyone in solid works tried putting a 5-10 degree angle off vertical on the tab? A slight angle on the tab could produce the unknown reflection. It looks like the rounded corners where the tab fastens to the vertical supports fastened to the tubes are slightly wider on the bottom which indicates there may be a slight forward angle on the tab. This would support a gravity drop for a game piece on the tubes if the hint were shown upside down and the tab was eventually fastened to a vertical support.

Greg Needel 28-12-2009 10:58

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by rc_cola1323 (Post 891155)
Great Job Art,

Very interesting... Btw just curious, all the models of the game hint drawn by different people or are they shared?

-RC

RC,
Here are my models pro-e native. As art said also, all values are guessed based on assumptions in the game hint photo, use at your own risk.

greg

JesseK 28-12-2009 11:29

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
This type of thread is the #1 reason why the GDC doesn't need to solicit ideas from the FRC community, ever. From one simple CAD rendering of a seemingly rudimentary field element piece the GDC has captured at least 100 ideas for 2011.

johnr 28-12-2009 11:46

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
If this object is a true representation of a field element, how would you build a cheap practice field copy? Where would you find something similar to that lexan piece? Plumbing, heating or wood department at home depot? Would pvc pipes actually slide over each other? Why the end pins have holes? Why have a spacer b/t the lexan and large pipe? So many questions, so little time.I believe this object is a wild rep of a catamaran. Connect some lines from the end pins to the lexan/sail and off you go. Or not.

skimoose 28-12-2009 12:00

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TEntwistle (Post 891171)
Excellent job on the reverse engineering. It appears to me that the shadow nobody can explain appears on your 50% transparency render. Is there any reason why this should be? Does it suggest that it is indeed coming from this piece and not from somewhere else? Would the fact that you had to render it with 50% transparency be part of the clue itself?

The shadow still appears because its part of the original game hint image. The 50% transparency isn't referring to re-rendering the original image (we can't because we don't possess the original CAD file)Art took the original rendered game hint image made it 50% transparent and laid it over the top of his Solidworks reverse engineered render. You can see both images laid one over the other. Since nearly all the critical points line up, it confirms that at least proportionally his drawing is sound. The longer 1" schedule 40 aluminum pipes are a little too long in his model as can be seen by the fact that they don't line up at the rear (right side) of the drawing. I think Art's pretty close though, 1" schedule 40 aluminum is the exact size FIRST has used in the past for connector pins in standard field construction/assembly and he arrived at this dimension by extrapolating off the 0.25" lexan assumption. His methodology was thorough and I'm confident his model is pretty close. It took a while to get the reflections and shadows close (two light sources at to different positions) and we can only surmise that the rendering engines work slightly differently between Inventor and Solidworks.

That said, we have a close idea as to the size and composition of this field element, but are no closer to understanding how it will be used this year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEntwistle (Post 891171)
Why have they given us a Classmate PC to use this year? My guess is so we can (or will have to) navigate the robot based on a camera image, and that we need the capability for real-time (within a few msec, or whatever the technology can give us) video to compete.

They are giving us a Classmate PC to replace last year's driver station that was plagued by static discharge issues. I suspect that PCs were FIRST's original plan for last year, but it just couldn't get finished in time. This shows clearly the Beta test DS layout and there is a space for the camera image. This layout can also be customized by teams. To what exact level I'm not sure yet, but the topic was mentioned during a webcast training session.

Anyway, that a very small image on the DS to navigate from, and the rate of image transmission isn't real-time, and it would eat up huge amounts of bandwidth, I don't think we're quite ready for live camera feed on all team levels yet.

Will the camera be important in this year's game? Maybe, probably, but the past games have always had other ways to achieve reasonable results with or without the camera. I wouldn't expect it to be much different this year. It all depends on how well your team can think outside the box, and overcome obstacles.



Instead of trying to read something into that reflection/refraction on the image, we need to concentrate on how this will be incorporated into the field, and why the GDC chose what appears to be smoked or tinted lexan for this component. Surely, the choice of materials is important.

RoboMaster 28-12-2009 12:53

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
2 Attachment(s)
Here's what artdutra04 was talking about with the still-visible reflection on his reverse-engineered part. It's more clear with high contrast.

Also, if the reflection is truly from a different part, why not try to recreate that part too and place it in a way that it will be reflected? Then we can also see where the reflection is coming from.

Rick TYler 28-12-2009 13:32

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Just a modest request for folks NOT to put 3000-pixel-wide pictures inline in the forum. A link to the big picture works just as well while keeping the text readable. Thanks.

terryo 28-12-2009 13:34

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
If this is part of a rail system for a ball - (the support structure which can have extension tubes attached at each end- then another support, etc) - then maybe the game involves alliance members placing a ball at one end of the rail and retreiving it from the other. Or not.
Maybe the smoked polycarbonate and the reflections are the true hint:

SMOKE AND MIRRORS...

Tetraman 28-12-2009 13:43

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by terryo (Post 891200)
If this is part of a rail system for a ball - (the support structure which can have extension tubes attached at each end- then another support, etc) - then maybe the game involves alliance members placing a ball at one end of the rail and retreiving it from the other.

I wonder...If FIRST has some kind of "rule" in their game designing that requires the audience to see whats happening. I bet we could narrow down the extent of the "rails" and the locations of their "support structures" if having too many would block the audience view of the game.

TD912 28-12-2009 13:45

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
http://www.nuk3.com/gallery/comedy/1...mberplate.html

Man, this discussion reminds me of that...

Anyway, although the lexan/polycarb piece should be able to hold a 120 lb. robot, I doubt it will be used for that. I still think it's some kind of gamepiece holder that's attached to the two pipes. The piece might 'hang' from it. Except I don't know what that arc is for...

jamie_1930 28-12-2009 14:05

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetraman (Post 891202)
I wonder...If FIRST has some kind of "rule" in their game designing that requires the audience to see whats happening. I bet we could narrow down the extent of the "rails" and the locations of their "support structures" if having too many would block the audience view of the game.

It may not be an official rule with the GDC, but it's at least an unspoken guideline because for FIRST were constantly trying to expand the organization and the mssion of FIRST, to educate people in math science and technology. In order to do that the first thing is to build interest and if you want to build interest it needs to be a game that is entertaining and understandable for the audience, and not just the rest of the team, the people we kept bugging all week saying you got to come check this out.

Karibou 28-12-2009 14:23

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 891205)
It may not be an official rule with the GDC, but it's at least an unspoken guideline because for FIRST were constantly trying to expand the organization and the mssion of FIRST, to educate people in math science and technology. In order to do that the first thing is to build interest and if you want to build interest it needs to be a game that is entertaining and understandable for the audience, and not just the rest of the team, the people we kept bugging all week saying you got to come check this out.

Also, keep in mind that not being able to see the game would totally kill the teams that scout during the games. 1189 received the J&J GP award at Detroit last year largely due to our scouting system (scouting during the match, and making the resulting data publicly available to other teams), and not being able to see the field would greatly affect teams like us.

Chris is me 28-12-2009 14:25

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
If FIRST makes a field invisible to the audience, I will buy every team a dozen Krispy Kremes. The whole idea of a robot competition is geared around spectators. Take that away and you have a science fair.

DonRotolo 28-12-2009 15:15

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 891207)
If FIRST makes a field invisible to the audience, I will buy every team a dozen Krispy Kremes.

A completely invisible field would be very cool. Is this a challenge to the GDC? :ahh:

AcesJames 28-12-2009 15:19

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo (Post 891215)
A completely invisible field would be very cool. Is this a challenge to the GDC? :ahh:

A challenge would be making the field visible to spectators, but invisible to drivers and human players :D

Steven Sigley 28-12-2009 15:23

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
They did that in 2008 with the ghosting of robots in the Lexan. :rolleyes:

Eugene Fang 28-12-2009 15:39

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Hmmm... One of our member's parents found this:


jamie_1930 28-12-2009 15:49

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 891221)
Hmmm... One of our member's parents found this:


We keep talking about having a track to put the balls in but what ifyou don't want the balls to go in the track, or gutter. Anybody up for bowling, Robots vs. Humans

johnr 28-12-2009 16:50

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AcesJames (Post 891217)
A challenge would be making the field visible to spectators, but invisible to drivers and human players :D

It's called blindfolds

Tetraman 28-12-2009 17:12

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Every year, some kid gets the idea to have a robot designed, that it drives over to the opponent's station, and raise up one big massive sheet that would block the vision of the opponent's, rendering them incapable of playing. They claim there is no rule against this - I always point to GP for this rule.

It would be awesome if there was a game that worked on the idea of "visibility" and forcing teams to have limited vision, making robots like this a possibility, under some kind of specific rule that defined how you could block vision.

Katie_UPS 28-12-2009 17:54

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
If the game is focused on rails, I vote the name be FIRST Derailed

And show a picture of the first logo going craaaaaaazy and off the tracks.

dlavery 28-12-2009 17:55

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetraman (Post 891238)
Every year, some kid gets the idea to have a robot designed, that it drives over to the opponent's station, and raise up one big massive sheet that would block the vision of the opponent's, rendering them incapable of playing. They claim there is no rule against this - I always point to GP for this rule.

There has been a rule specifically prohibiting doing things like this for many years. If they said this last year, you might have referred them to Rule <R02-A> of the 2009 FRC manual. If they were not picking up on this - just the second rule in the "Robot" section of the manual - then they probably were not reading the manual at all.

-dave



.-

Karibou 28-12-2009 18:53

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 891242)
There has been a rule specifically prohibiting doing things like this for many years. If they said this last year, you might have referred them to Rule <R02-A> of the 2009 FRC manual. If they were not picking up on this - just the second rule in the "Robot" section of the manual - then they probably were not reading the manual at all.

-dave



.-

And even if that rule didn't exist, then wouldn't raising some massive sheet up be a huge safety hazard? (assuming it's some kind of cloth)

Tetraman 28-12-2009 19:50

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 891242)
There has been a rule specifically prohibiting doing things like this for many years. If they said this last year, you might have referred them to Rule <R02-A> of the 2009 FRC manual. If they were not picking up on this - just the second rule in the "Robot" section of the manual - then they probably were not reading the manual at all.

-dave

Usually, on the first day of designing, everyone spent much more time looking at the game rules, rather then every robot rule.

Also, all this talk about tracks, made me think about playing Spirit Tracks again. And then thinking of that, made me think about a train FIRST game, which made me think of having stationary robots rolling around on a track, completeing tasks as they pass them. Sort of like a assembly line, only the robots will move around, rather then the "product"

dlavery 28-12-2009 20:35

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetraman (Post 891274)
Usually, on the first day of designing, everyone spent much more time looking at the game rules, rather then every robot rule.

Perhaps a change in process might be something for you to consider. If you are doing ANY design work at all before you read the Manual (ALL of the relevant sections, including the Robot Rules), you are just asking for trouble later on.

As has been said elsewhere, the Manual is your "requirements document." Virtually every successful and experienced team will make sure that they understand what they are designing before they begin the design process. They do that for a reason. It is for the same reason that every good real-world engineering team makes sure they fully understand the project requirements before they begin designing. You have to understand the requirements of the problem before you can ever understand the solution.

-dave



-.

jamie_1930 28-12-2009 20:53

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery (Post 891296)
Perhaps a change in process might be something for you to consider. If you are doing ANY design work at all before you read the Manual (ALL of the relevant sections, including the Robot Rules), you are just asking for trouble later on.

As has been said elsewhere, the Manual is your "requirements document." Virtually every successful and experienced team will make sure that they understand what they are designing before they begin the design process. They do that for a reason. It is for the same reason that every good real-world engineering team makes sure they fully understand the project requirements before they begin designing. You have to understand the requirements of the problem before you can ever understand the solution.

-dave



-.

I have to disagree with you here, following kick off we have a huge brainstorming session and as should be with all brainstorming sessions there are no bad ideas. If you come up with something that's against the rules you can always tweak it to fit the rules and that illegal design may lead you to numerous legal ones that would be any better. By the time you agree on the final design yes it should be checked for all of the rules, but saying that it'll only cause trouble isn't entirely correct. Although, yes you should understand what you need to design before you do so, but isn't that the whole purpose of the game animation?

pandamonium 28-12-2009 21:03

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Dave finally comes out of hiding and comments on this game hint thread and we waste his time with something stupid. Come on guys lets get back on "TRACK" if that's what it is. Which it isn't Because people had been talking about tracks and trains because of some beverage comercial long before this hint came out. Assuming it was Dave who is the architect of this hint he deliberatey gave us a hint that we would think is a track but isn't.

JaneYoung 28-12-2009 21:11

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pandamonium (Post 891303)
Assuming it was Dave who is the architect of this hint he deliberatey gave us a hint that we would think is a track but isn't.

I would never assume anything about any one of the members of the GDC at this time of year.

Chris is me 28-12-2009 21:37

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pandamonium (Post 891303)
Dave finally comes out of hiding and comments on this game hint thread and we waste his time with something stupid. Come on guys lets get back on "TRACK" if that's what it is. Which it isn't Because people had been talking about tracks and trains because of some beverage comercial long before this hint came out. Assuming it was Dave who is the architect of this hint he deliberatey gave us a hint that we would think is a track but isn't.

While I agree, being on track won't make Dave comment on the hint.

I don't see why everyone's glued to the track idea. The lexan seems almost useless in such a setup.

pandamonium 28-12-2009 22:03

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
rings were brought up but not payed any attention to

jamie_1930 28-12-2009 22:04

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 891307)
While I agree, being on track won't make Dave comment on the hint.

I don't see why everyone's glued to the track idea. The lexan seems almost useless in such a setup.

What if the track doesn't come in contact with the robots but only the game pieces. Do you think any robot from last year could hit that thing with a moon rock and break it?

Gary.C 28-12-2009 22:05

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pikat (Post 891221)
Hmmm... One of our member's parents found this:


Man I am digging this idea. Nice find. Also we should have spoiler tags when using images, so it doesn't stretch the page when having high res images.

gallo26 28-12-2009 22:29

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 891307)
While I agree, being on track won't make Dave comment on the hint.

I don't see why everyone's glued to the track idea. The lexan seems almost useless in such a setup.

The lexan is merely a bracket used to mount a sensor. The track itself would be much more supported by pvc or steel tubing. This is just a single junction to count scores. Previous posts have ruled it as more of a way to mount something to the track, not mounting the track to something

DonRotolo 28-12-2009 22:29

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 891302)
following kick off we have a huge brainstorming session and as should be with all brainstorming sessions there are no bad ideas.

The key words here are "design work" (in Dave's post) and "Brainstorming" (in your post). These are two different things.

You are correct that true brainstorming has no bad ideas. Once brainstorming is over, ideas are evaluated, and performing this evaluation without regard for the requirements is a sub-optimal practice.

R.C. 28-12-2009 22:33

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 891307)
While I agree, being on track won't make Dave comment on the hint.

I don't see why everyone's glued to the track idea. The lexan seems almost useless in such a setup.

I'm with Chris, the track idea doesn't seem very viable. I think it's just a holder for game pieces or a part of the field. Maybe its a just a holder for a sensor discussed in previous parts of this thread.

-RC

dlavery 28-12-2009 22:54

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 891302)
I have to disagree with you here, following kick off we have a huge brainstorming session and as should be with all brainstorming sessions there are no bad ideas. If you come up with something that's against the rules you can always tweak it to fit the rules and that illegal design may lead you to numerous legal ones that would be any better. By the time you agree on the final design yes it should be checked for all of the rules, but saying that it'll only cause trouble isn't entirely correct. Although, yes you should understand what you need to design before you do so, but isn't that the whole purpose of the game animation?

With what are you disagreeing? The original question ("there is always someone that wants to design something illegal, and they don't know there is a rule against it") and my response ("make them read the rules before they design") both had to do with design. Your comment has to do with brainstorming. They are orthogonal concepts, with only a single point of intersection.

And no, the purpose of the game animation - or any other part of the kick-off broadcast - is NOT to substitute for reading the rules. Any student that thinks so is missing the point of the broadcast (and for that matter, the rules), and any mentor that lets them get away with that is doing a disservice to the team.

-dave




-...

zachav39 28-12-2009 22:55

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
I believe that the fact it came out on Christmas Eve has something to do with it.

R.C. 28-12-2009 23:11

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 891157)
Using the official game hint photo, and the fact that the bronze polycarbonate piece was most likely 1/4", I was able to extrapolate all other dimensions from the pixels. (30.8 isometric pixels ~ one inch). Most dimensions are pretty accurate, but take 'em with a grain of salt. Here's the quick and dirty Solidworks files:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Needel (Post 891183)
RC,
Here are my models pro-e native. As art said also, all values are guessed based on assumptions in the game hint photo, use at your own risk.

greg

Thanks Art and Greg. It helps to see the model in 3D. :D

-RC

Jon Jack 28-12-2009 23:13

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Why must people always struggle with reading the rules? Are there too many words? Dave, maybe some people need more pictures! :rolleyes:

JVN 28-12-2009 23:15

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamie_1930 (Post 891302)
I have to disagree with you here, following kick off we have a huge brainstorming session and as should be with all brainstorming sessions there are no bad ideas. If you come up with something that's against the rules you can always tweak it to fit the rules and that illegal design may lead you to numerous legal ones that would be any better. By the time you agree on the final design yes it should be checked for all of the rules, but saying that it'll only cause trouble isn't entirely correct. Although, yes you should understand what you need to design before you do so, but isn't that the whole purpose of the game animation?

Hi Jamie,

If you're designing a robot to the game animation and then "tweaking it to fit the rules" later, I would say you're doing some shoddy engineering and missing the entire point of this process.

One of the most important parts in an engineering design process is to DEFINE THE PROBLEM. If you don't properly understand your problem, how can you solve it? Reading the game manual (the ENTIRE game manual) is the only way to understand the problem given to us in the FIRST Robotics Competition. The animation is just a pretty tool to help outsiders understand the game; the manual is for me, the animation is for my grandmother.

On 148 the first thing we do is read the "key" sections of the manual as a team, this ensures that every student is familiar with all the rules.

You mentioned brainstorming...
Brainstorming is a creativity exercise where a large number of ideas are generated in the hope that a few of them are good. This typically happens early on in the process.

When it comes to brainstorming on 148 we like to throw around illegal ideas just like everyone else. There are no bad ideas during brainstorming. However, our team spends a LOT of time referencing the rulebook during brainstorming to make sure that all the ideas we move forward with are LEGAL. We also typically make a long list of questions we need to get answered (legality questions we will answer via Q&A or functionality questions we will answer via prototyping.)

We've only got 6-weeks...it would be downright irresponsible for us to spend any significant amount of time on an illegal idea; those are by definition, "bad ideas."

If you get a minute, take a glance at my paper on using an engineering design process and look at the section on specifications, pay careful attention to "design constraints."

-John

JVN 28-12-2009 23:18

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Jack (Post 891345)
Why must people always struggle with reading the rules? Are there too many words? Dave, maybe some people need more pictures! :rolleyes:

This year's game animation should be a "south park" style Woodie reading the entire game manual from cover to cover.

dlavery 28-12-2009 23:19

Re: [BB] 2010 Game Hint #1
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JVN (Post 891347)
This year's game animation should be a "south park" style Woodie reading the entire game manual from cover to cover.

Dang! How did you know what it was going to be? Now I have to start all over again...



-dave



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