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That's why they gave teams a lighted target in '06 and '07. '05 had a camera too, but it proved to be too sensitive to light to work since the target was not lit and the plastic reflected differently at different angles.
As for the new laptops and the cRio, yes they change things for some teams, but we could have a laptop Dashboard last year too. If the dashboard video has little lag, it would be possible for them to allow us to look through the robot's eyes or make it advantageous to do so. Back to the render, it is possible the reflections/colored Lexan indicate that we will have skewed/otherwise not clear vision from the driver stations, and must look through the robot's camera or rely on the robot sensors more than before for decision making. What would be really interesting is if the GDC replaced the clear plastic on the Driver Stations with black plastic (so all decision making is based only on robot sensor feedback to the drivers) or colored it so blue/red game pieces looked the same to the drivers (so the robot must tell the difference). Kickoff is coming soon, we will know how this relates to the game then and it will seem all too obvious to us what this is. |
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I've got to ask you where you've read that the definition of coopertition is "punishing the teams that do well" and "rewarding teams who score for their opponents", because I've heard a bunch of people claim "coopertition is scoring for your opponent!" when that goes against everything I've ever heard the word used for. Scoring on your opponent isn't coopertition at all, it was (in 2009) a move motivated entirely for each team's self interest (not getting a <g14>) and had nothing to do with coopertition. Note: I've always understood coopertition to be fiercely competing on the field, and assisting and working together off the field, going hand in hand with gracious professionalism. If I'm completely off base, someone correct me please. Quote:
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They look as if they lock in with each other...[quote] That is my thought exactly, like on the legs of a pop-up canopy or adjustable crutches. I think this is only one piece though, and the part that locks with it isnt shown... just a thought dang it I messed up the quote... how does that work again? |
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LOL,
as always, please try to read at least parts of the whole thread before you post something redundant. Thanks, The Management (no not really of course) |
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And let's all go back to talking about the game hint please. :D |
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If you guys feel like talking about that award, go make another thread please. Keep this thread on track.
<sarcasm> HA. Get it? Track? HA... because of the game hint! Ha hahaha....HA. Bahahaha. Oh I'm too funny. </sarcasm> But no really, go make a new thread if you're going to go on a tangent please. |
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Here's my idea of the 2010 game based on the hint, my own crazy thoughts and some talk on here.
![]() On the red alliance side there are 2 red robots and 1 blue robot. On the blue alliance side there are 2 blue robots and 1 red robot. Pipes on the top allow the individual robot to steal soccer balls and give them to it's teammates on the other side of the barrier. Balls start on the side and back of the field. they CAN be removed from the goals by the individual robot. At the end of the round tally up the balls in a teams goals to determine the winner. |
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Back to the hint at hand...
I was really hoping the game this year would be some variation of stacking milk crates. I'm beginning to doubt that will be it. There is one thing I haven't seen mentioned, the pipe wall thickness looks really thin. I don't think this is a structural component at all. It clearly goes between two other parts (with the spring loaded connectors) on the ends. I suspect those other parts will come all the way up to the middle larger pipe and that there won't be a lip. The fact that they recessed the screws holding the lexan leads me to believe that they intended for something to ride through this without catching on screwheads. It seems likely that this is a track for a round object to roll on, but the object would have to be light. Because this isn't structural, I'd be guessing that this part is for putting balls on the field or taking them off. If it is for taking them off then the extra 4 holes are probably for mounting a score counting mechanism. If it's for putting them into the field then it's probably going to have a mechanism to regulate timing or rate of ball input. I doubt the GDC would give out a significant portion of the gamefield in a single clue. The 2007 clue was a spider foot. It was important, but it wasn't enough to make any solid guesses about the game. This clue seems to have a lot more information, so I'm guessing it's used less (than the spider feet) in the actual game. Andy |
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The pipe being consistent with what's on FIRST fields leads me to believe it's part of the field... but what if it isn't??? |
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Just wondering if GDC would ever partition a field like that that's impassable? Though in the context of your game idea, it completely makes sense. |
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It would be pretty neat if that field wasn't blocked off in the middle (I believe it is unless I misunderstood what you said) But there were 2 sliding panels on each of those two walls. They would have a program like 2008 that would randomize the walls. Only 3 would be visible (2 would slide next to each other like normal glass sliding doors) And block visibility and mobility of robots. Creating a maze. Just some random thoughts. FIRST might go back to a randomizer. The control system has gotten smarter, and the camera can track more. So its possible that a random start would be some part of the 2010 game. |
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Personally, I think it's pointless to hypothesize with just THIS piece of the puzzle. The fact that the image is named "game hint 1" leads me to believe there will be more. It's like hypothesizing what a car will look like when you only have the front headlights.
Sorry, terrible representation. Basically, I'm going to take a break for a few days until another hint comes, then maybe I'll look at the BOTH. Can't have a line with just 1 point of data ;) |
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I also think that it is pointless to hypothesize about the game hint, because no one is going to build a robot beforehand of these ideas. It will probably be obvious once we know the game but we will not realize it now. Nevertheless it is a game hint...
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Remind me again. Why do we let the GDC hold us captive to these hints year after year? Oh well I'm just going to try to forget about it and wait 2 weeks to see what the actual game is.
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Because it's a fun challenge. Kind of like Sudoku, but with lexan and evil geniuses.
A few ideas I had: Dave's morse code hint could possibly be decoded as "Everything is not as it appears"(which usually refers to visual perception) The hint is in Morse code(a communication system) The CAD render contains a reflection, possibly of another field element(which could be considered a form of visual relay/communication) The new control system and field elements this year will support much richer telemetry from the robot Therefore, I'm thinking that these hints might be pointing on an increased reliance on visual feedback and robot telemetetry. However, I'm inclined to think that if this is true, the emphasis is going to be more on robot-to-robot communications and vision processing. Just plain "let's drive the robot using the camera" is not very programmatically interesting or spectator-friendly. Looking at the hint more literally, I'm reminded of this resturant that uses a suspended track system to deliver food to customers. Cracker Jacks and Haagen-Daaz cups or food. So maybe this is part of a system to drop game pieces down from the ceiling. Hmmm... Or it could just be, you know, the whole field. |
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A few recent posts have suggested that there is little purpose to guessing about the game hint (an old idea, BTW - mentioned a few days ago). However, it is a chance to get people excited about the game, and a chance to start strategizing/brainstorming. I have alsready started to think about what I would want to do if this game is played on rails, if it requires sorting balls by color, if it uses small (tennis ball sized) game pieces, if it requires a camera due to limited visibility, and now what to do if the field is partitioned. This may be the biggest value of the game hint - the ideas you thinnk of to tackle one issue may be the best way to conquer the real game, even though your imagined problem has nothing to do with the real problem.
Like JVN has said numerous times. there is no stupid idea in a brainstorming session. The student who asks that we have a robot that can fly will encourage someone else to think of the game-winning strategy. So I would encourage others to keep throwing out ideas, not matter how stupid (except for flying robots), but suggest that we keep it focused on the hint and game, and read prior posts (or search) to minimize pure repitition. |
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Not sure if this has been mentioned but I came across this as I was reading through some old blogs from Bill.
(This is in Section 5-Rev A pertaining to the new Coopertition Award) "The Coopertition Award celebrates the team that best demostrates the ability to help their opponents compete. In the inaugural year of the Coopertition Award, the award will be granted to the team that earns the most Coopertition bonus points during the competition (See Section 9 for details about Coopertition bonus points)." I'm thinking that means that teams will have their own score that they continue to add to after every match... Sorry this doesn't quite relate to the first hint but it's about the game overall... |
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Get back in here and help solve this puzzle. We almost had the game described before kickoff last year. The puzzle solving can be just as exciting as creating a design during the six weeks. We will solve this before kick off. we just need people to think how this picture fits into a game having similar rules from all previous. Yet the game WILL be different. ;) |
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Gallo,
Are you going to adjust your drawing so that we can see a reflection due to an angle between rails and mounting tab? I would like to know what angle gives us the reflection seen in the clue. Jerry |
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I don't know what you're talking about with coffee and M&Ms; Mountain Dew is where it's at XD |
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-RC |
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Hot pockets and Mountain Dew. It's how i survive the long dreary days of build.
I say wait until more hints come out to even discuss this any more. There is a certain point which we have hit where you begin to ask, "What more is there?" brendan |
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I seriously believe that they rendered it from the full playing field. They made everything invisible that connects to the part shown. When they added the background, they moved the XZ plane to a certain height. In Inventor, that plane will cut off everything below it when rendered. Therefore, you get natural reflections without showing everything. They have custom lighting which I cannot replicate. That lighting is what put that funny reflection of another pole, and that blue tint on everything. Its either a light going through an plastic object like an inner tube from 2007, or some other clear blue object. Either way... the second and hopefully third clue will help us all to pinpoint the ideas written on this thread, and we'll be able to predict the game from it. |
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I have a question though. Why is the reflected image very close to the size of the pipes, assuming the reflected pipe isn't huge in reality? Can someone confirm/deny that when an image is rendered in Inventor with "Perspective Mode" off, that the reflections don't scale properly either? |
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While looking at the hint i noticed something. Its design was awkward in the way of its design. The curve in the back and the poles gave me an idea so
I rotated it and here is a crummy MS paint version of what it could be....:D http://www.teamkrunch.com/Team_Media/Sideways.jpg |
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Oh man....I just realized something
That picture rotated looks like a ladder. Chutes and ladders. Ladders look like train tracks when laid down flat, and the hint looks like part of a ladder/chute mechanism to hold and raise/lower balls. |
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Could be nothing, but what if impossible reflection + Dave's morse code = reference to MC Escher? It would be fun to play on a field like this:
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Warning: Drivers might experience motion sickness...
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Great Job Art,
Very interesting... Btw just curious, all the models of the game hint drawn by different people or are they shared? -RC |
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So a robot could hang from that thing and it wouldn't break? o.0
I think my purse game piece idea might be catching on :P |
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Using the official game hint photo, and the fact that the bronze polycarbonate piece was most likely 1/4", I was able to extrapolate all other dimensions from the pixels. (30.8 isometric pixels ~ one inch). Most dimensions are pretty accurate, but take 'em with a grain of salt. Here's the quick and dirty Solidworks files:
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Very nice. But what about that one odd-angled reflection on the original? Or am I missing it on your reverse-engineered part? |
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Upon doing an image comparison search on the internet I found a lot of pictures of eye glasses. What it means, who knows.
That is just my 2 cents |
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Has anyone in solid works tried putting a 5-10 degree angle off vertical on the tab? A slight angle on the tab could produce the unknown reflection. It looks like the rounded corners where the tab fastens to the vertical supports fastened to the tubes are slightly wider on the bottom which indicates there may be a slight forward angle on the tab. This would support a gravity drop for a game piece on the tubes if the hint were shown upside down and the tab was eventually fastened to a vertical support.
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Here are my models pro-e native. As art said also, all values are guessed based on assumptions in the game hint photo, use at your own risk. greg |
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This type of thread is the #1 reason why the GDC doesn't need to solicit ideas from the FRC community, ever. From one simple CAD rendering of a seemingly rudimentary field element piece the GDC has captured at least 100 ideas for 2011.
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If this object is a true representation of a field element, how would you build a cheap practice field copy? Where would you find something similar to that lexan piece? Plumbing, heating or wood department at home depot? Would pvc pipes actually slide over each other? Why the end pins have holes? Why have a spacer b/t the lexan and large pipe? So many questions, so little time.I believe this object is a wild rep of a catamaran. Connect some lines from the end pins to the lexan/sail and off you go. Or not.
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That said, we have a close idea as to the size and composition of this field element, but are no closer to understanding how it will be used this year. Quote:
shows clearly the Beta test DS layout and there is a space for the camera image. This layout can also be customized by teams. To what exact level I'm not sure yet, but the topic was mentioned during a webcast training session. Anyway, that a very small image on the DS to navigate from, and the rate of image transmission isn't real-time, and it would eat up huge amounts of bandwidth, I don't think we're quite ready for live camera feed on all team levels yet. Will the camera be important in this year's game? Maybe, probably, but the past games have always had other ways to achieve reasonable results with or without the camera. I wouldn't expect it to be much different this year. It all depends on how well your team can think outside the box, and overcome obstacles. Instead of trying to read something into that reflection/refraction on the image, we need to concentrate on how this will be incorporated into the field, and why the GDC chose what appears to be smoked or tinted lexan for this component. Surely, the choice of materials is important. |
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Here's what artdutra04 was talking about with the still-visible reflection on his reverse-engineered part. It's more clear with high contrast.
Also, if the reflection is truly from a different part, why not try to recreate that part too and place it in a way that it will be reflected? Then we can also see where the reflection is coming from. |
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Just a modest request for folks NOT to put 3000-pixel-wide pictures inline in the forum. A link to the big picture works just as well while keeping the text readable. Thanks.
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If this is part of a rail system for a ball - (the support structure which can have extension tubes attached at each end- then another support, etc) - then maybe the game involves alliance members placing a ball at one end of the rail and retreiving it from the other. Or not.
Maybe the smoked polycarbonate and the reflections are the true hint: SMOKE AND MIRRORS... |
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http://www.nuk3.com/gallery/comedy/1...mberplate.html
Man, this discussion reminds me of that... Anyway, although the lexan/polycarb piece should be able to hold a 120 lb. robot, I doubt it will be used for that. I still think it's some kind of gamepiece holder that's attached to the two pipes. The piece might 'hang' from it. Except I don't know what that arc is for... |
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If FIRST makes a field invisible to the audience, I will buy every team a dozen Krispy Kremes. The whole idea of a robot competition is geared around spectators. Take that away and you have a science fair.
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They did that in 2008 with the ghosting of robots in the Lexan. :rolleyes:
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Hmmm... One of our member's parents found this:
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Every year, some kid gets the idea to have a robot designed, that it drives over to the opponent's station, and raise up one big massive sheet that would block the vision of the opponent's, rendering them incapable of playing. They claim there is no rule against this - I always point to GP for this rule.
It would be awesome if there was a game that worked on the idea of "visibility" and forcing teams to have limited vision, making robots like this a possibility, under some kind of specific rule that defined how you could block vision. |
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If the game is focused on rails, I vote the name be FIRST Derailed
And show a picture of the first logo going craaaaaaazy and off the tracks. |
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-dave .- |
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Also, all this talk about tracks, made me think about playing Spirit Tracks again. And then thinking of that, made me think about a train FIRST game, which made me think of having stationary robots rolling around on a track, completeing tasks as they pass them. Sort of like a assembly line, only the robots will move around, rather then the "product" |
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As has been said elsewhere, the Manual is your "requirements document." Virtually every successful and experienced team will make sure that they understand what they are designing before they begin the design process. They do that for a reason. It is for the same reason that every good real-world engineering team makes sure they fully understand the project requirements before they begin designing. You have to understand the requirements of the problem before you can ever understand the solution. -dave -. |
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Dave finally comes out of hiding and comments on this game hint thread and we waste his time with something stupid. Come on guys lets get back on "TRACK" if that's what it is. Which it isn't Because people had been talking about tracks and trains because of some beverage comercial long before this hint came out. Assuming it was Dave who is the architect of this hint he deliberatey gave us a hint that we would think is a track but isn't.
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I don't see why everyone's glued to the track idea. The lexan seems almost useless in such a setup. |
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rings were brought up but not payed any attention to
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You are correct that true brainstorming has no bad ideas. Once brainstorming is over, ideas are evaluated, and performing this evaluation without regard for the requirements is a sub-optimal practice. |
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And no, the purpose of the game animation - or any other part of the kick-off broadcast - is NOT to substitute for reading the rules. Any student that thinks so is missing the point of the broadcast (and for that matter, the rules), and any mentor that lets them get away with that is doing a disservice to the team. -dave -... |
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I believe that the fact it came out on Christmas Eve has something to do with it.
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Why must people always struggle with reading the rules? Are there too many words? Dave, maybe some people need more pictures! :rolleyes:
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If you're designing a robot to the game animation and then "tweaking it to fit the rules" later, I would say you're doing some shoddy engineering and missing the entire point of this process. One of the most important parts in an engineering design process is to DEFINE THE PROBLEM. If you don't properly understand your problem, how can you solve it? Reading the game manual (the ENTIRE game manual) is the only way to understand the problem given to us in the FIRST Robotics Competition. The animation is just a pretty tool to help outsiders understand the game; the manual is for me, the animation is for my grandmother. On 148 the first thing we do is read the "key" sections of the manual as a team, this ensures that every student is familiar with all the rules. You mentioned brainstorming... Brainstorming is a creativity exercise where a large number of ideas are generated in the hope that a few of them are good. This typically happens early on in the process. When it comes to brainstorming on 148 we like to throw around illegal ideas just like everyone else. There are no bad ideas during brainstorming. However, our team spends a LOT of time referencing the rulebook during brainstorming to make sure that all the ideas we move forward with are LEGAL. We also typically make a long list of questions we need to get answered (legality questions we will answer via Q&A or functionality questions we will answer via prototyping.) We've only got 6-weeks...it would be downright irresponsible for us to spend any significant amount of time on an illegal idea; those are by definition, "bad ideas." If you get a minute, take a glance at my paper on using an engineering design process and look at the section on specifications, pay careful attention to "design constraints." -John |
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![]() -dave . |
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