The 2010 Curve Ball
 

In 2009 the GDC threw us a curve ball with the Regolith and rover wheels. With Kickoff is just days away, what do you predict the 2010 curve ball will be? What will be the one change that will shake things up more than any other? The one change that will nullify countless off-season prototypes? The one change that will force everyone to rethink everything?

It can be anything. Let’s see who gets to say I told you so after Kickoff!

My prediction: The good ‘ole CIMs will be a thing of the past and will be replaced with some new motor in some new legal quantity other than 4.

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Non-flat surfaces, in a fairly large proportion.

Back in the days between 1999 and 2004, there was some form of structure to climb on every year (save 2002). These structures could easily block midfield, which many of them did, or make staying off of them and staying competitive very tricky. Since 2004, we have not really had that midfield barrier. Sure, we've had to go around triangles (2005), go up ramps at the end of the field (2006), and dodge large structures (2007), but none of them have had that same "I'm in your way, climb on/over me" feel that those older ones had.

A number of prototypes that are out there seem to assume a fairly flat floor with primarily carpet covering. But let's not forget, the GDC has been known to use as many as three different surfaces in one game, notably in 2003's ramp and 2006's ramps.

I don't think the CIMs will entirely disappear. However, let's see what happens when we can only use the BIG CIM's from the 2006-2007 era.:D More weight, less power, and how on earth do you get the pulley and tensioner off this darn motor without breaking it? That's going to be a sight to see... (And yes, that would be a dirty trick. The only things in the KOP's those years that weighed more than the big CIM were the compressor and the batteries.)

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My prediction....





We'll find out in 5 days....

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Well, assuming that we're gonna be dealing with more space themed objects this year (like the remote control from Overdrive relating to controling space probes or the regolith being like the surface of the moon) I think we'll either be stuck with less traction/less mobility or we'll be using an entirely new method of control as an option (e.g. IR remote). And as for the field that would be an interesting idea for a field and I'm not gonna say the GDC will count that out, so yes morphed surfaces would make it challenging.
Also if what I've heard is true they found water on the moon so ice may be within the means of terrain and what best represents ice but the regolith from last year?

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Not being able to see the objects we've got to manipulate...unless we've got a camera on the manipulator and a netbook on the driver's station.

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personal I'm hoping for active field elements. put some motors out there, have the robots communicate with each other and the field to get bonuses. having the field be the 7th robot would be a cool twist IMO.


PS I very much liked this years BEST game even if the scoring was a little confusing

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2010: Placebo Odyssey Two

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No wheels hahaha:D

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It's actually a great idea. Force us to use different means of transport.

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Stairs.

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Back to carpet but with different size sledding disks placed upside down under it.

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Assuming the "Coopertition Bonus Points" mentioned in Manual section 5 are not earned solely on chips like the safety award has been....

My guess is that the 2010 game will not be a "traditional" 3 vs. 3 game.

Perhaps a flashback to the 2001 4 vs. the clock game or the alliances can work together on a shared task like the FLL cross-table elements along with scoring points independently.

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I still want to know how many legs our robots will need.

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Who said the robots even need to move around at all? We don't need no stinkin' drivetrains.

2010: Kinetic Sculpture Derby :rolleyes:

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I hear the GDC spent most of last summer at State Fairs watching truck and tractor pulls and mud bog competitions.

Maybe the field will be something mushy.

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The field will have a giant turn table so the goals that we have to place the game pieces in are constantly in motion

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I hope the curve ball is actually a return to the 2004 and earlier style games.

I doubt a large change to the KOP, especially nixing of the CIMs.

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there is no way they change from cims if so AM would not have made the nano box

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I always think of FRC as an opportunity for the participants to continue moving forward and discovering/flexing new muscles we didn't even know we had - in areas of problem solving as related to the game. I also think that these efforts and strategies that develop, can and will be applied in helping find real world solutions to existing problems. If they turn around and go back to where we've all come from, what would be gained? If they return to the past and bring it forward with an added twist or turn or two, that could be interesting. As individuals, it is easier to return to a comfort zone than it is to stretch out into new areas. The same is true with communities. We think we understand the last few games and have explored everything they have offered. I have a feeling that we haven't - not completely. The perception could be one thing, the possibilities quite another.

The curve ball is that the GDC is going to celebrate 2010 in a really fun way and we should hold onto our seats.

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At River Rage in Manchester NH we beta tested netbooks that are comming in the kit... maybe we are controlling off of those? there was a FIRST program installed on them that was used as the control system instead of that blue box and the wireless router. Also i think stairs and many little objects like tennisballs or foam hockey pucks.

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90lb weight limit.

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If we could guess what it was, then it wouldn't be a curve ball!

The KOP includes "1 Long box, 36.5" x 8.75" x 5.75", 29 lbs each" - sounds like the AM kit frame. Therefore, we probably have wheels, too...

I wouldn't be surprised to see some limitations on drive trains. This is the area that gives seasoned veterans a big advantage over younger teams (preseason prototypes, evolution of previous designs, etc.). A big curveball here could force everybody to pull a clean sheet of paper or default to the kit chassis, which might level the playing field a bit.

And speaking of level playing fields - we are overdue for an uneven field surface. Perhaps a game that rewarded tall robots with a high goal placement and then penalized their high CG with a steep ramp, or some such conundrum. Something where you needed to commit to one particular design objective and hope that one of your alliance partners picked the other - kind of like the ramp-bots in 2007.

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I don't think leveling the playing field by limitation is likely to happen.

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My hope is the the curveball we have to deal with is learning to throw a knuckle ball with the scoring object.

I've suggested a weight reduction many times in the past because I feel the robots already way too much, but I've resigned myself to the fact the robot size/weight just won't change significantly for a variety of reasons. (field size, visibility for spectators, electronics sizing, shipping and handling etc...)

The best curveball they could give us in my opinion is new game object shape or size that we haven't dealt with yet. A bulk/mass moving type of challege where we move popcorm kernel or something like that and score by weight could work as well. Also working with smaller balls like super balls, tennis balls, etc would create a new challenge for us on the larger robots..

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Drivetrains don't give as big of an advantage as you think. Yes, a solid drivetrain is the foundation for a solid robot, but it doesn't make a robot an Einstein quality robot.

There are better ways to level the playing field than to limit teams' freedom and creativity. I agree with Peter, I hope it's something new. Look at something like the ramps in 2007. It was new to everyone and everyone had a start from scratch. Ramps proved to be a major aspect of the game and IRC every winning alliance has atleast one ramp.

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We will play on unpopped corn kernels, just like in 1992. NASA will then use the results to figure out new ways to get Spirit unstuck. Even the price of corn has risen since September, which is evidence that the GDC has indeed been stocking up on the precious commodity.

Two themes knocked out with one field element: check.

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I also think that there will be a decrease in the weight limit. I'm thinking 105-115lbs. Anywhere below 100 can get hard to do, but somehow we built our 2008 robot and it came to a weight of 84lbs when done, and we weren't even trying to stay light.

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Who says it will be a curve ball? Maybe the GDC has decided to test out their knuck...

*grumbles about being late to the thread*

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AM does not know the game. AM has chosen, based on past years' setups, to develop a gearbox that may or may not be used this year. This is a risk that many companies take. Best guess says X, Y happens, company Z loses money. Best guess says X, X happens, company Z makes money hand-over-fist. That's business in a capitalist marketplace.

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No need for limitations. Whereas the difference between "have" and "have not" teams in regards to drive trains may have existed five or ten years ago, AndyMark's products have pretty much eliminated that.

The proper way to advance forward is by bringing the bottom up, not by limiting how high the top can fly.

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Possibly, but people have been predicting stairs ever since Dean's wheelchair first made an appearance...

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Please let it be a larger playing field.

This allows room for all the mid-field obstacles from earlier four robot games that really became kind of impractical with six machines crammed on to the field.

But, sigh... I do know space is limited in some of the smaller FRC venues, so we're not likely to see that.

Perhaps, however, we might have strict limits on energy consumption... efficiency is always a good thing. Maybe each robot will be fitted with an ammeter to measure total current flow, and it will report back to the field control system how much power each robot is drawing. Alliances will then have "power consumption points" deducted from their final score.

Or maybe the combined total power consumed by all three robots in on an alliance will be monitored... so if robot one is in a pushing match and needs to pour on the juice, robots two and three need to dial back their consumption a bit. THAT would be a real challenge for drivers!

Jason

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Smaller robots would give the same effect.

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Smaller robots + the non-compactness of our existing control system = major pain in the neck

The cRIO (and it's auxiliary hardware) is far too bulky to make the robots significantly smaller. We've had very wide open fields the past couple of year (2006, out side of the ramps was wide open / 2007, fairly wide open except near the rack / 2008, pretty wide open unless there was lots of traffic generated / 2009, wide open). Putting more elements on the field or creating obstacles would be kind of nice...

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Based on the box Wayne mentioned, it seems like the legnth of the robot is unlikely to change. They could require a narrower width, but that would still leave significant space consumption issues based purely on the 38" dimension.

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There is not going to be a curve ball this year just a kick but game...

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Dunno about that one, Sean. If they do like they did in 2007 with the height/weight classes (which didn't return the next year for some unknown reason), there could well be a number of smaller robots. Or they changed the size after the kit frame material was made and teams have to do the cutting down.

Sure, it's likely to be the same, but there's no reason for it to be, based on a single box dimension. (Not to mention the fact that said box could very well be a pre-built lift system that must be on the robot, not a KOP frame...)

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They made a similar last minute dimensional change in 2005 to adjust to our current dimensions from 30x36 (I think, it's been a while) to through a last minute change at us from what the envelope had been for the previous 4 or 5 years. This was done after the kit bot, new that year, had been designed. I have heard about this from several people involved in the original kitbot design.

That said the size of the robots is really about getting through standard doors and staying on standard shipping palates so I would not expect much change.

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Good point on not using the box size to guess at robot size... and I agree that smaller robots, while difficult to build, and more difficult for specators to watch, would allow more room on the playing field.

I do want to point out, however, a few practical maximum dimensions... the robot has to be able to fit through a doorway, and the 28" dimension works pretty well for that once bumpers are added. (Wouldn't it be cruel to increase the max width to 38" and see how many 38"x38" robots are stuck in their build rooms on ship day?)

The max weight is also limited, I understand, by American health and safety regulations that limit loads lifted by hand to 150 pounds.

So I doubt the robots will be any bigger....

Jason

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Bigger robots will always be a problem as long as DOORS remain the same size. (There are rumors that in the early years some teams found they couldn't get their 'bots out of the workshop ...)

Personally I'd LOVE to see an obstacle to climb over again. Those were fun days.

And I've said it before, but this thread looks like a good place to repeat myself. Consider the following points:
- In 2006 the tetras were 8 lbs apiece
- The GDC is always looking for a readily available, fairly inexpensive game piece

My vote for the curve ball is ... bowling balls! :ahh:

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2005 :)

But yes, bowling balls would be cool.

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48 without a sweet drivetrain? That'll be the day.

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Isn't this the year of the water game? haha

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And those tetra being flung around by robots were a hazard I don't think the GDC considered until the game was actually payed. I can't imagine anything like that again.

I too would love to see some ramps or something to climb again. The floor has been flat for too long.

Re: The 2010 Curve Ball
 

I too would love to see the return of ramps like in 2006 or platforms like in 2004 or some other fun field obstacle but I just don’t see it happening for one simple reason: BUMPERS. Ever notice that about the time bumpers came along the field got flat? At first bumpers were optional but for the last couple of years they have been mandatory. I suspect he GDC has a fondness for bumpers for good reason. I well remember watching a 2004 Newton match when two opposing robots charged out of the gate at the beginning of autonomous and met mid field in the hardest, fastest, head on robot impact I have ever seen. I can’t remember for sure what the team numbers were but I want to say 254 was one of them. In any case, neither robot moved from the point of impact for rest of the match. Bumpers are designed to reduce the effects of such violent robot impacts. I think I read somewhere that the CRIO is rated to 50g. While 50g is nothing to sneeze at I bet those two robots on Newton back in 2004 felt much more. The recent bumper rules are the way they are for many good reasons. Heck, last year nobody was ever able to get enough traction to get going anywhere near what we have in the past but we had the most stringent bumper rules to date. As long as bumpers are deemed necessary by the GDC in anywhere near the same manner that we have become used to (bumper perimeter requirements, bumper zone, non-articulating, etc., etc. etc.) I predict that the field will remain relatively flat. Bumpers add to the safety factor and, well, we all know FIRST is all about safety and rightfully so. It is a litigious society we live in after all.

Re: The 2010 Curve Ball
 

The Field will be pretty much the same size - I'm 99% sure on that one. I think there will be serious obstacles to negotiate through, over, or around. Like others have already said, we haven't had that since 2004.

Curve ball? 4-6" wheels may not be the way to go this year. Treads or larger wheels could be needed. If teams have to use larger wheels, treads, or stairclimbers, that maybe enough of a curve ball in itself.

Re: The 2010 Curve Ball
 

Rather than climbing obstacles, I think we may have to duck them. Perhaps the GDC will honor the year 2010 with a giant X suspended 3' over the field. Scoring goals will be > 6' high, and robots are required to navigate under the X in order to reach the goals.

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Curve ball - No Game Hint #2

Or, perhaps, Game Hint #2 that is "hidden" in some web location that we must go find...

(Come on Bill Miller, prove me wrong....)

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Why does this sound like Iron Chef? Today's secret ingredient is ... bowling pins!

(I think bowling pins would be more fun than bowling balls.)

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And extremely tricky too -- those things weigh 3lbs, are slick with wierd shapes, and are fairly durable. They seem perfect for a FRC game...

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There was a team in 2007 that competed in a competition match with no drivetrain. Their drive was broken, but they were a ramp bot, so they plunked it on the field and still scored points for their alliance. There's a picture somewhere...

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Except for the cost factor... I personally have a set I got from the bowling alley I played at. They don't replace them often because they're expensive.

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I don't know if you are meaning 1816. In the semis at WI during the second match, the transmission failed on their robot. For the third match, they put the robot out because the ramps still worked even if they couldn't drive around. They didn't win the match, but both of the other robots were lifted up at the end.

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I can think of one ramp-bot that didn't have a drivetrain at all that year. Can't say they had much success, though.

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It depends on the game, my friend. ;)

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/31433

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Our team in 2006 was in the proccess of converting our treds to wheels and put the robot out on block for a match. Our auton worked, at least!:p

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Okay, you got me, Karthik!

But didn't 148 have a little help from some friends? ;)

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What about 111 in 2003?

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Candle pin? Similar but slightly less tricky

Now something completely different; Frisbees.
<please be Frisbees>

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Curveballs (not necessarily all at once):

Playing surface: A non-Newtonian fluid, like a corn starch/water mixture.

Game piece: A refrigerator box 1/4-filled with sand.

Robot restrictions: Robot must be a stationary arm. ( keep suggesting this for our FLL team, but it has yet to be implemented.)

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curveball???

How about wiffleballs in a longrange shooting contest :yikes:

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While our drivetrain in 2003 was pretty good, teams had to deal with a little more than a box on wheels. The ramps were what made that robot great, not the wheels. Exhibits 1, 2, 3 are best viewed flip book style. Oh yea, the autonomous wasn't too shabby either :D

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This may be due to FLL rules that prevent this. Apparently, teams once did stuff like sticks that could reach halfway across the table. Therefore, robots now have to move out of their starting area before using said big sticks.

At the FRC scale, now that would be interesting.