What do you think will be important this year?
 

It's still early in build season, but what do you think will be the most important things to keep track of this year (I'll try to update this list with the suggestions for quick reference)?

My predictions:
Ability to go over bumps and/or through the tunnels
-Tunnels can easily be blocked
-Bumps are wide, but can risk tipping
General scoring ability (i.e. average how much they score)
-Ability to hang
-From tower
-From another robot
-Ability to support another robot
-Ability to propel a ball through the air?
Defensive ability
Human Player speed
Attention to Rules (not getting penalties/cards)

Additions:
Ability to start in any field zones
Ability to play effectively in any field zone
Ability to pass and receive passes
Ability to defend tunnels (basically, ability to push/resistance from being pushed)
Vision Tracking abilities

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Ability to play in any field zone will be a big factor for a number of teams, I think.

Ability to pass/receive passes will be something to watch for, as will be ability to defend the tunnels.

Hanging will be important, especially the ability to hang with another robot or two hanging from you.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Adding on to that, I would also say ability to start in any field zone.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Specifically for autonomous mode. A robot without a long range ball mover will be screwed if it's two zones away from the goal.

I think the key to this competition will be flexibility. The robot will need to be able to do pretty much everything, and that might not be that hard to pull off.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

The tunnels will be insignificant. Hanging from the tower will be common, until teams realize they can't defend during that time. Being able to move balls accurately is key.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

I think the best robots will do something with the bar not mentioned in this thread yet in addition to shooting from at least the mid range. :)

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Swinging? That's the third way to travel from one zone to the next.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

This was the topic of discussion for our team today and, while no conclusion as a whole was reached, I agree that flexibility is key, but more so almost - durability. The robot should be able to push it's way through things blocking a tunnel, or withstand going over a bump, and be able to weather a fall if something goes wrong while it is suspending itself or has robots suspending from it.
It also seems though that if you can't hang your robot it would be useful to be able to play defense during the end of the match, because while one alliance may be focused on the tower the other may just be shooting in balls continually.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Tarzan-bot?

Anyway, I think that being able to start from any position will not be too important. Rather than seeing robots specialize at specific game tasks per-say, I think that the emphasis will be on specializing play for one zone of the field. I think that going over the bumps will be a risky proposition for quick traversal, and the tunnels seem easily blockable.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Ball control, as well as hanging.

On a related note: linky

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Seems to me that these matches will be somewhat low scoring (they wouldn't give you 11 seconds to return a ball if it didn't take that long, and that will limit shooting), so getting up on the towers will be really big, especially if you can lift up your alliance partners as well.

Also, I think that robots in the farthest zone (the one with three balls) will need to clear the balls towards their own goals before the start of teleop or the other team will just come over and score with them.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Honestly, I think the tunnels will end up being a bottleneck for many teams, so being able to go over the bumps will be big,

Also, being able to play both offense and defense will be huge, as two of the three sections will be primarily one or the other.

I think for all the sections, being able to move balls quickly will be big, as you can effectivly play both offense and defense with a single move.

The middle will be a combination of offense(being able to move returned balls) and defense(blocking tunnels)

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Having the opportunity to time the ball return at Manchester today, it took about 7-8 seconds to pick up the ball and place it on the track, and another full 7-8 seconds to roll down the track and onto the field. Theoretically then if you were continuously scoring you could get 7-8 balls a minute, maxing out (including autonomous) at 22 points for a match.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Wanna put money on that?

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

That means that in the time it takes all three robots to get on to the tower (lets assume 15 seconds), if the opposing team can score about six times, which means that hanging either ties or beats it (3*2 min. and 2+2*3 max for two robots hanging off the first, as opposed to the 6*1 of shooting).

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

If you ask me, having a handle, or some other convenient way for your comrades to hang onto your robot will be almost as important as the ability to hang in general. Being easy to grab and hang from will be a great advantage for an alliance.
Seems like it'd be slow and slightly dangerous (a fall might leave a big mark). Also, if I understand <G44> [BALL CARRYING – ROBOTS may not CARRY BALLS. Violation: 2 PENALTIES for each CARRIED BALL.] you wouldn't be able to bring any balls with you, so I'm not sure what the advantage of that would be as opposed to just trying to make it over the walls.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

I think a tunnel-dependent robot will be easily shut down. If the opposing alliance's star robot is tunnel-dependent, then your alliance can just take your weakest robot and stick it in a tunnel.

Also, I think pushing in the tunnel will be difficult with the high-up bumper positions. The force of pushing will be acting on your robot horizontally, and most likely above your robot's centre of gravity. So your robot will tend to lift the side it is pushing with, and may very well flip.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

On one hand, herding a ball in any controlled manner would be very hard to do if you are going over the bump. On the other, going under means having to fight the 36inx18in space of the tunnel (29inx18in after you've factored out bumpers on the sides).

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

The advantage is that unless another robot is also swinging, you cannot be blocked. You can be pinned or completely blocked in the tunnel, and you can be blocked or flipped going over the bumps. Of course you can't take a ball with you, but the only way to reliably travel zone-to-zone with a ball is through the tunnel anyway.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Don't forget about defense. You can stay in your starting zone and block the opposing alliance. And, you can block opposing alliance robots from traversing the tunnels and bumps in the center field to buy time. Then, when it comes to the finale, hanging is key earn some extra points at the end of the match. I mean, scoring the soccer balls is 1 point each. At the minimum, you'll probably be able to score 2-3 balls, given the circumstance. So, defense, as much as offense, and hanging will be a key role in this year's game.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Sorry to burst your bubbles but how are you going to swing from a bar that his higher than the 60 in height limit? To swing from it you would have to climb up the bump and if your doing that you might as well just go over the bump instead of wasting time to swing ....

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

I think tunnels will at least be an option for many teams, and a preferred one to the risky bumps for many. Not necessarily mandatory but they'll be used.

Balls also roll through sometimes.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Vision / camera systems may be critical: We've started wondering (and won't know until we either build a Bump or CAD out the dimensions) if soccer balls will be easily visible across in the far zones because of the Bumps. If not, the ability for a robot to "see" will be critical, both on offense and defense.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Touch the tower. You can adopt Finale configuration any time you are touching the tower under <G30-C>.

Of course, if I was a ref, I might call an <S01> violation if you were swinging, depending on the manner of swinging. Definitely if a tower came down.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

I doubt hanging will be that important within game play because a team that can score effectively and get the balls back out will be able to make up those points quickly. Personally I still want to hang, but more for political reasons within the regional, being able to hang well and have other robots hang from you can be something that will help set you apart from the rest of the competition.

Also on that note I think were going to see another competition where the human player will be a big part of things. The coralers won't need to do much, but they can ruin things if they're not paying attention to what's going on, but as we saw in the kickoff demonstrations with Dean, Woodie, and Lavery the trident holder, the more important of the positions, needs to work fast and avoid getting the ball stuck in the trident, from pushing it in to hard, and getting it stuck on the track, by spreading the track and having it close in on the ball.

Don I think there is some truth to what your saying because robots could become easily blocked if only able to move through the tunnel, but teams that can go through the tunnel will be able to move much faster than those who can only go over the ramp, if the tunnel isn't blocked. In my opinion the teams your going to see trying to move from zone to zone will try and go through the tunnel first, but have the capability to go over the ramps. Also I think a trend will start to develop where you'll see teams that don't hang during the endgame will be these bots that can go through the tunnel.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Neither the tunnel or bump will be an effective mode of traveling from one zone to another. How do we move from zone to zone? You don't, at least, once you get your robot where you want it - you keep it there, and let your mechanisms do the scoring for you. One robot moves balls from the midzone to the alliance zone, and a second moves balls of the alliance zone to the goal. It's that simple.

Why you would need extra robots in a zone is, currently, beyond me.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

I'm wondering how these teams plan to shrink back to standard configuration before letting go. That's also rather important.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

It all depends on how each teams strategy plays out in my opinion it would be best to stay in your area and be able to score effectively from there, but it's one of those things where you want the option to be able to travel from zone to zone.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

For a robot in the opposing alliance's zone, getting back to the middle section might be important, depending on their goal.

Also, if there is only one robot working a zone, it might be quite easy to block balls from being passed from one zone to another.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

As the balls are reintroduced at midfield, it could be advantageous to bring the third robot from the opponent's end to midfield. That would give you an edge in gaining possession of reintroduced balls.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Did anyone think of a design where the robot just locks itself (drive like 71 in 2001) under the opponent ball feeder and just shoots the balls to their zone?

Would that be legal?

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Building off of this, how long it takes a robot go get to the tower will play a role, seeing as that equates to more or less time that robot can attack or defend. Teams will have to decide if going for the tower will be worth it based on factors that will obviously change depending on the game.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

This. I think there will be too many variables in play when deciding whether or not to hang from the tower. We can make up as many situations on an electronic message board all we want, but it will ultimately come down to each individual game.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

As long as it does not "carry" the ball at any point in time, it should be fine. In other words, if your mechanism gets stuck, you get penalized along with not being able to do anything.

Also, your mechanism must be below the bumper zone otherwise you will get a penalty every time a ball goes through your mechanism.

After answering this, I would like to remind everyone that the topic is what is important to keep track of and not what is legal or what strategies will be best. Basically what would you want to record when scouting. Odds are you will want to be broad in your specification (e.g. can it traverse the field rather than "can it swing", and only then if so, how?).

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

My team overall is thinking the same thing. And, while for the most part I agree with you, the key to these games is that it is not a system. There are many factors that can alter gameplay entirely. Perhaps your "defense" bot gets a dead battery and becomes useless, or it so happens that the other team is so good at ball control that you don't have any balls on your side anyway, and so your "offense" bot may want to cross to a new section and help either get more balls or begin the hanging. I do agree with you though for the most part.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

It can't be.

Since the ball has to be touching the carpet, and can only be 3 inches under the robot, you can't catch it and have it roll down a ramp into a mechanism, as it's being funneled and thus its direction of travel sticks with you when spun.

Also, metal on carpet.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

one thing I don't think I saw much was, strong autonomous. I wouldn't say off the bat that there is one or two particularly "good" autonomous plans, but having the ability to readily change autons would be key in a game like this were teamwork is essential.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Not only for the teamwork, but for the purpose of not being too predictable for your opponents, a strong autonomous would be good. Especially since you'll have so many options with the ability to chose the ball's locations.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

I believe the key robot tasks will be to be able to score, to elevate yourself, to "kick" balls across the bumps, and to be able to take balls from opponents.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

What will be important is that a team is able to do one thing "well".

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

I am a huge supporter in making one or two aspects of the robot perfect over "doing everything", but this year I think the robots will need strategic flexibility with a "specialty function", allowing them to do different things with different alliances without compromising a primary function.

I believe one aspect of the game is more important than all the others at this point. I won't say what, partly because my opinion changes every day.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

If your strategy is to never hang if your in the other team's offensive zone, then you don't need the tunnel or the bump. However, if you want to try and get all 3 of your alliance partners off the ground, at least one of your teammates needs to travel over a bump or through a tunnel.

-Brando

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

I wouldn't be too worried about opponents strategies during autonomous. I would more worry about being able to cooperate with your alliance partners.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

True, although there's still nothing against say, making the top of your robot such that a ball will bounce off of it in a given direction (i.e. angle the top of your robot). This is not an active mechanism, so we don't have a problem there (It's not even really a mechanism). It is in fact a method to avoid carrying balls as it will cause them to roll or (more likely) bounce off.

It is difficult to determine to whether a ball rolling down a ramp (with no side boards) is carrying because if the robot turns, the ball will probably remain in approximately the same absolute position (pulling a tablecloth from under glasses if you will). In addition, any movement in the other degrees of freedom (moving forward, back, left, right) would certainly cause a difference in relative position. As such, I would suggest that a ball rolling down would not qualify as possession, and therefore does not qualify as carrying.

As for the metal on carpet issue, that is not arguable because it is explicitly stated in the rules.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

That is true, and I expect a lot of robots to incorporate this kind of thing into their designs. Without direction, it seems having a ball consistently land in a place close enough to a robot that it would not need to move in order to score would be impossible.

The "metal on carpet" was referring to locking into the carpet.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

I am aware of what "metal on carpet" was referring to (as an example 71 used filecards one year IIRC). I meant was that its illegality is not able to be argued against because it is specifically stated in the rules.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Zone-Zone mobility and ball passing (if mobility is too much of an issue)

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Seconded, mostly.

Unless you're constantly moving from one zone to another, at risk of getting blocked or tipped, I can only see a few strategies where this works in your favor.

• Pull your far bot to midfield - This could work for ball starvation, if your 2 on 1 can consistently shutdown your opponent's midfielder. I think this is probably the best argument for changing zones.
• Pull your near bot to midfield - This also depends on your 2 on 1 dominating in midfield AND being able to score from midfield.
• Pull midfield to your near zone - This mostly makes sense as a short term strategy, as you're shifting your ball supply to your far bot. But it could be effective for a scoring burst before the endgame.

So, I can see situations where moving around the field can help you, but only to a point. And only if you can capitalize on the situation. If you have to sacrifice robot performance to make the tunnel or bump, then it might not be worth it. At any rate, I think you can be an effective alliance mate without focusing on changing zones.
Also, I think the tunnel will still be an effective means for getting between zones. Sure it can be blocked, but a blocking robot is extremely stationary for obvious reasons. Pulling a robot off-task to block a tunnel can be nearly as useful as a second robot in that zone anyways.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Not sure how much people have already beat this to death, but one of my ideas for something important for this year (though I am a rookie, so if I'm wrong please correct me) is to make a decision at the final twenty seconds of the match to see if a team should go up into the tower and risk damaging their robot if another team gets up there, or go and try to score at the final moments of the match to get some points while the other team may be letting up their defenses.

Most teams are going to try and go for the tower points there at the end, eventually letting up their defense for the last twenty seconds. If a team has a lot of balls down on their side, and they're ahead of the game at that point in the game, then I think it'd be more efficient for them to go and score those balls at the end in order to get those points.

Not saying that strategy would work every single time, but still it may work every once in a while. It'd have to be a move that'd be decided at the end of a match, but it's just something to consider for the matches you're in.

Just throwing it out there. :]

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Right, but if you notice a team always puts the balls in a certain way in auto and gets them from point A to point B in a repeated amount of time, you may be able to figure out a legal way to counter it.

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Only if your strategy involved hitting a ball over there or if they partially cross the line (or at least get somewhat close to the line). You can't fully cross the center line in autonomous. You can however, observe where a team tends to end up and make it so that you may be in an advantageous position after autonomous (excluding the above statements).

Re: What do you think will be important this year?
 

Right, I guess I worded my point wrong. On that note, I guess the key thing here is flexibility. Any amount of repetition will probably get spotted here and used against you.