Chief Delphi - 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

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- - 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79796)

gblake

09-01-2010 23:24

2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Folks,

On Chief Delphi, let's use this thread to discuss the 2009 FRC season's version of the 5th Gear FRC match simulator.

The FIRST Forum for discussing 5th Gear is here FIRST's 5th Gear Forum

As was the case last year, the simulator will be released during the 2nd half of the build season.

Send us you comments and suggestions now, and stay tuned.

Blake
PS: Thank you Lockheed Martin for your generous support!

PPS: A little truth in advertising... I and my colleagues on the core 5th Gear team are Lockheed Martin (LM) employees. We started 5th Gear as volunteers (outside of our LM jobs) and we still do much of the development as volunteers; but with Lockheed Martin's strong support we are getting a lot more done and can get it done a lot quicker. In particular, the exhibits at regional tournaments and the Championship are made possible mostly because of Lockheed Martin's support.

Stop by and see us at those regionals this year! Or, if your local regional isn't planning to to have a exhibit/tournament, think about volunteering to put one on as a gift to everyone at the event.

Passion

10-01-2010 12:12

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

How do you use 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator? What does it do and what benefits does it have for the teams?

daltore

10-01-2010 12:39

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

5th Gear FRC Match Simulator is a 3D simulator of the "most common" robot types for that year's competition as determined by the developers. It has the advantage of seeing the basic dynamics of the game, not really for designing a robot (as it is released half-way through build season). It will give you a rough idea of how the game might play out, as well as how much you can accomplish in 2 minutes and 15 seconds.

To use 5th Gear, you set up a SERVER and up to 6 CLIENTS. Servers and clients can be run on the same computer, as long as you have the hardware resources to support it (requires a fast enough processor, enough RAM, and a fairly good graphics card). Basically, the server plays the role of the Field Control System, and the clients play the roles of the individual robots. The viewpoint of each screen can be adjusted for different angles and perspectives, and I think the buttons you use to drive can also be reconfigured, and you might be able to control it by joysticks, I don't remember.

5th Gear is a fairly basic representation of an FRC match, but it can be a valuable tool when training drivers. If you don't have the luxury of having a drive train to practice on between ship day and competition, this is probably one of the best ways to get people used to the competition before they compete, and I highly recommend it.

gblake

10-01-2010 13:28

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by daltore (Post 895670)

5th Gear FRC Match Simulator is a 3D simulator of ... and I highly recommend it.

Well said - That is a good description.

Also, last season, WPI was kind enough to supply a page on their Think Tank site where you could download 5th Gear (and you can still (now) pull down last year's Lunacy simulation). When we release this season's version we will tell you where/how to download it.

The 5th Gear page in the WPI Think Tank is here: 5th Gear Lunacy. Once you get into the Think Tank site, I recommend browsing around a bit. There is a lot of good info there from the clever folks at WPI and from elsewhere.

The main CD thread for the 2009 (Lunacy) 5th Gear is here: 2009 (Lunacy) 5th Gear thread In that thread you can find links to some YouTube videos and other info.

By searching Chief Delphi using "5th Gear" you can find other discussions and can find links to some other simulators with varying degrees of realism and/or slick graphics. However, I think 5th Gear is the only one that gives you 6-player, 3D, decent rules fidelity, and decent physics realism in a single integrated package.

Blake

Passion

10-01-2010 15:33

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Sounds intriguing.

gblake

30-01-2010 19:50

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

5th Gear's Breakaway is available for download!

Thanks WPI for supplying the download server again!

Thanks Lockheed Martin for your continued sponsorship!

Thanks FIRST for your continued support!

Thanks Team 1986 (Team Titanium) for the field model!

I suggest updating each of these before installing the actual 5th Gear executable.
Your Microsoft DirectX (DirectX 9.27.1734 non-Web Installation)
Your Microsoft .Net (.Net 3.5)
Your Nvidia PhysX (PhysX 9.09.1112)

Report any problems here (Thanks FIRST): FIRST 5th Gear FORUM

Suggest improvements, discuss uses, brag about high scores, post pictures or links to videos, etc. in the FIRST 5th Gear forum (above) or here on CD.

The core CD thread is this thread.

Download 5th Gear from this page in WPI's Think Tank site: 5th Gear download site

Enjoy,
Blake

Chris is me

30-01-2010 20:29

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Awesome! I'll miss Overdrive, but Breakaway should tide me over until it gets readded. Overdrive's really good for solitaire play (90 with Speedy, 180 with Catapult).
Note: You have to uninstall 5th Gear 1.1 to make it work, so you only get Breakaway OR Overdrive / Lunacy.

Current high score of 18 with the Kicker and 10 with the Tunneler 1v0. The Tunneler feels sloppy, and the Goalie... I dunno. The robots would be more balanced IMO if the Tunneler had a holonomic drive.

Any plans for hanging?

artdutra04

30-01-2010 21:55

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Awesome job on the Breakaway version of 5th Gear! I love the Pacman easter egg.

boomergeek

31-01-2010 15:21

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I tried it solo.

It's an amazing feat of physics simulation of the game.

I was able to drive into a goal but not out of it. Will the real goals act as Venus fly traps to teams that try to snow plow a ball into the goal?

Do you think the GDC designed the slippery floor in the goal with chains and embracing foam with the capture of small bots in mind? :)

Would shoving another bot into a venus fly trap while trying to push a ball in there be considered overly aggressive? Or to use an American football analogy, would it be considered like a fullback running through a cornerback near the goal line in order to score a touchdown?

The goals could be sort of become like the fire pits on Battlebots...

The only thing I noticed that I did not like about the physics of the game was that if you hit the wall while running almost parallel with it, it stopped you immediately instead of just slowing you down and allowing you to turn the rest of the way parallel to the wall.

joek	31-01-2010 15:28

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

i'm sure that if you have enough power in your drive train, you could get out

Chris is me

31-01-2010 16:30

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

If you drive into a goal, you should warp back on the field.

http://vimeo.com/9111662 - Video of a 17 point run I did. Working for 20.

gblake

31-01-2010 17:09

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 910724)

http://vimeo.com/9111662 - Video of a 17 point run I did. Working for 20.

I see this when I follow the link I see "Do you have permission to watch this video? If you do please first log in to Vimeo to watch this video." Can you turn off the privacy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomergeek (Post 910686)

It's an amazing feat of physics simulation of the game.

Thanks so much! But save a few adjectives for when we are able to improve the physics ;) - We are still climbing that learning curve and things should get better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomergeek (Post 910686)

I was able to drive into a goal but not out of it. Will the real goals act as Venus fly traps to teams that try to snow plow a ball into the goal?
Do you think the GDC designed the slippery floor in the goal with chains and embracing foam with the capture of small bots in mind? :)
Would shoving another bot into a venus fly trap while trying to push a ball in there be considered overly aggressive? Or to use an American football analogy, would it be considered like a fullback running through a cornerback near the goal line in order to score a touchdown?

I think that both driving into a goal on purpose and pushing someone else into one will certainly be frowned upon (read up on the penalties in the rules).

However, I very much like the questions. They show me that someone used the simulator for a short while and already started discovering gameplay situations that they hadn't given much thought previously, and that they (you) started planning/revising corresponding strategies.

Among other uses, we hope that the simulation becomes a strategy and driver training tool that all teams can use before their first matches. If we can make it good enough, even teams that operate on a shoestring in the boonies can come to their first regional practice matches almost as well prepared as teams that have practice fields and nearby opponents to spar with before shipping their bots.

We aren't there yet, but as my wife tells me, it's good to have goals. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomergeek (Post 910686)

The only thing I noticed that I did not like about the physics of the game was that if you hit the wall while running almost parallel with it, it stopped you immediately instead of just slowing you down and allowing you to turn the rest of the way parallel to the wall.

We will investigate - Also, see above, we still have plenty of room to refine our use of PhysX.

Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 910276)

Awesome job on the Breakaway version of 5th Gear! I love the Pacman easter egg.

Pacman Easter egg? - Maybe one of my colleagues slipped that in - I haven't found it yet. Give me a hint.

Blake

Chris is me

31-01-2010 17:10

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Fixed privacy settings.

I too am wondering about Pac Man.

gblake

31-01-2010 17:17

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 910735)

Fixed privacy settings.

I too am wondering about Pac Man.

That was well played - You might have gotten 18 if one of your shots on goal hadn't hit another ball.

I'm thinking that we might need to make it a little harder to grab the balls, and a little easier to lose control of them when you are turning.

Thoughts? We don't want to train players to expect benefits that won't exist in the real world.

Also - You mentioned a ball return glitch - Can you describe it for us?

Blake

Chris is me

31-01-2010 17:40

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 910738)

I think different amounts of control between the different possessing robots (if one of them could hang it would be an interesting tradeoff) would be cool. Maybe a little less possessiveness, but those ball handlers are surprisingly good in real life if well designed.

Or let me hit 20 before you change it :P

Quote:

You mentioned a ball return glitch - Can you describe it for us?

I can do one better. 18 point run - http://vimeo.com/9114707

Until it goes live, just rapidly hit Shift when 2 or more balls are in queue and watch what happens to the balls.

fordchrist675

31-01-2010 17:45

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I'm just totally stoked to actually get to play it.:D

Chris is me

31-01-2010 18:05

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I finally made 20 points: http://vimeo.com/9115291

Last video for now. I think this is sufficient proof I have no life.

gblake

31-01-2010 18:36

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 910771)

I think this is sufficient proof I have no life.

LOL - Glad we could help :)

ttldomination

31-01-2010 19:15

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I'm sorry if this is an extremely easily answered question, but I honestly have no idea how to get this thing to work. When I open up fifth gear, I start my server, and then when I show up, I see no robots. I read the document on installation instructions and stuff, but it still doesn't say how to actually go about picking a robot/playing around...

fordchrist675

31-01-2010 19:17

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I also have that problem, also whats a server people are on?

Chris is me

31-01-2010 19:19

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttldomination (Post 910821)

You need to open 2 instances of 5th Gear to play 1v0. One server, one client.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordchrist675 (Post 910822)

I also have that problem, also whats a server people are on?

It's a LAN game, for now. Not online :(

fordchrist675

31-01-2010 19:21

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Alright thanks very much

artdutra04

31-01-2010 19:54

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 910733)

Pacman Easter egg? - Maybe one of my colleagues slipped that in - I haven't found it yet. Give me a hint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 910735)

I too am wondering about Pac Man.

When Pacman goes off the side of the level, he magically reappears at the opposite side of the screen.

When you drive your robot into one of your goals, you magically reappear at the opponents' end of the field.

The Pacman Effect or the Pacman Easter Egg seemed like logical names for this "feature". :)

gblake

31-01-2010 21:02

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Thanks Art - Reappearing on the opposite side of the field sounds like something to put on our bug list

ttld and ford - To amplify what Chris said - In a full-up 5th Gear set-up, right now, you would have 7 computers on a LAN, and pick one to be the server computer (the location where the sever instance of 5th Gear will run). The other 6 would be split 3 and 3 between the red and blue alliances. The red and blue folks would each pick robots and drive styles (with their bot's location on the field determined by when they each lock in their choices) and then someone would start the match on the server.

Right now we have not purposefully given the software the ability to tolerate the relatively long communication delays that would come with having a bank of public server computers sitting on the internet somewhere so that clients from all over the planet can link into those hypothetical public servers. So right now you get to supply your own server.

However, as Chris pointed out, you don't have to run the server software on its own computer (physically separated from the client software). We have purposefully kept the complexity of the game low enough so that typical school and home computers can handle running the server software and one client's software simultaneously on a single computer.

When you want to use 5th Gear solo, you can start it up twice on the same computer. Tell one instance to be the server. Tell other instance to be the client (if its not a server, then it is implicitly a client); and tell that client that the server's IP address is 127.0.0.1 (aka the Loopback Address of the computer they are sharing). The client will be where you pick a simulated robot and play, and the server can be ignored during each match after you use it to start that match.

Blake
PS: Sounds like we need to clarify this in our documentation and/or in our on-screen hints.

ttldomination

31-01-2010 21:19

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 910880)

PS: Sounds like we need to clarify this in our documentation and/or in our on-screen hints.

Thanks for the help. I got it working, and it's pretty legit when it works. :P And yeah, probably somewhere it might help to add that. :D

I was also wondering if there was a way to change the controls on the keyboard layout. Right now the WASD layout is a bit awkward. Also, the program tells me to press the red button to send ball back into the field, but I don't know how that translates into the keyboard.

Chris is me

31-01-2010 21:27

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttldomination (Post 910887)

I was also wondering if there was a way to change the controls on the keyboard layout. Right now the WASD layout is a bit awkward. Also, the program tells me to press the red button to send ball back into the field, but I don't know how that translates into the keyboard.

WASD is a pretty standard setup for a lot of FPSes and keeps drivebase motion on the left hand, traditional for most games. In short, I like it.

Enter grabs a ball, Space kicks it, and [Left?] Shift returns a ball.

artdutra04

31-01-2010 22:15

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by ttldomination (Post 910887)

If you have an Xbox 360 USB controller, you can plug it into your computer and use it to play 5th Gear. That's where the red, green, blue, etc buttons come from.

ratdude747

31-01-2010 23:08

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

windows only? no linux?

gblake

31-01-2010 23:17

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

1 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by artdutra04 (Post 910910)

If you have an Xbox 360 USB controller, you can plug it into your computer and use it to play 5th Gear. That's where the red, green, blue, etc buttons come from.

Folks - One of the things we knew we needed to do is to supply some on-screen graphics that would illustrate how the Xbox controllers make the simulated bots move.

I attached a sample (below - click on the thumbnail to see a bigger version) for use Tank Drive to steer one of our Holonomic robots (you can strafe and move diagonally, in addition to normal Tank Drive motions) - If you think I need to revise it, let me know.

I need to do three more: Tank Drive Skid, Arcade Holonomic, and Arcade Skid.

Blake
PS: We used to have the Keyboard and the Xbox user-controls show up in the on-screen hints. I'll ask the other guys if we took them out on purpose.

gblake

31-01-2010 23:27

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratdude747 (Post 910941)

windows only? no linux?

5th Gear has XNA underneath it to give us a "game" software framework. As much as I might grumble about losing portability because of that; I do very much like that it gives us a possible path for some day migrating onto Xbox game consoles.

Software projects are full of trade-offs; just like building a FIRST FRC robot. Learn how to wisely evaluate and execute those trade-offs now and you will have a skill you can emphasize in job interviews a few years from now.

That said, like you, I want to have a Linux version running some day; but first we will have to isolate all of the XNA code into modules that are mostly-decoupled from everything else, and then find (or write) a suitable Linux -compatible utility that can replace XNA. If we have to write one, well, that is no small task.

So, neither you nor I should hold our breath waiting for a Linux version; but I hope there is at least some comfort in knowing you aren't the only person looking forward to having one some day. ;)

Blake
PS: Just in case it isn't obvious - We don't have a Mac version either. Right now - Windows is your buddy for 5th Gear. We developed and tested it on Windows XP. Trying it out on Windows 7 is a subject pregnant with possiblities. :)

Chris is me

31-01-2010 23:29

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I was wondering why the robots with holonomic wheels weren't moving sideways... Silly me. I'll have to plug in a controller and play some Tumblewhat Tumbleweed now. I bet I could hit 25 points with a holonomic drive, since I preferred the tunnel to the bumps in all my record Kicker runs anyway.

gblake

31-01-2010 23:33

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 910951)

... And you claim that you don't have a full and exciting life??? I think this thread supplies plenty of evidence to refute any such assertion. ;)

Chris is me

31-01-2010 23:51

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 910954)

... And you claim that you don't have a full and exciting life??? I think this thread supplies plenty of evidence to refute any such assertion. ;)

Fair enough, you win...

Though I've noticed the holonomic is really slippery. Even hitting a freely moving soccer ball will throw me 90 degrees out of whack. I know omni drives can sometimes be like that, but maybe a little more friction in the next revision? That or make it so you can strafe sideways with the ball instead of weirdly orbiting it. I've tried to grab the ball and slide sideways in front of the goal only to be turned in that weird way so many times now...

Also, kicking and moving is hard without shoulder mounted ball manipulation. Other than that though, driving holonomic is... addicting :)

Foda	01-02-2010 13:43

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I would like to see the option for WSAD and the ability to assign custom controls. I was also disappointed that it was not open source. Our team's programmers (and I) wanted to build/add to the program but we could not. I think it would be in the FIRST spirit to release this as open source.

gblake

01-02-2010 21:03

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foda (Post 911186)

I would like to see the option for WSAD and the ability to assign custom controls.

Can you be a little more specific about the WSAD part of this request? I think we do have WSAD controls available, so I'm not sure what you meant in the first clause of the request.

About assigning custom controls - That is a good suggestion; but it does take time to accomplish - It will certainly go on our list of things to improve.

Blake

JesseK

01-02-2010 21:14

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

So, Chris, have you ever tried to run the sim from the driver's station point of view? It's much harder that way. I've only been able to get 11 so far.

Chris is me

01-02-2010 21:31

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 911516)

So, Chris, have you ever tried to run the sim from the driver's station point of view? It's much harder that way. I've only been able to get 11 so far.

The driver station view is actually backwards, it's less helpful than I'd like. :(

I play the default view for scoring runs. Top down isn't centered, otherwise I'd always play that. I'll see how well I can do with the DS view sometime.

gblake

01-02-2010 21:49

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 911523)

Sounds like a few more things to double check.

playbass06

01-02-2010 22:48

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Very cool! This definitely makes me wish I had a better graphics card... (averaging maybe about 10 fps on a GeForce 7150M, which also, unfortunately, doesn't support such awesome features as PhysX [it seems to emulate, or perhaps replace it with some other physics engine, though] or CUDA)

I see the field worked well for you, I like what you've done! My lack of programming skills has set me back on my version, but it's still fun. A Linux/Mac compatible port would be something to look into, but it would of course have to be limited to OpenGL graphics, which plain isn't as fast as DirectX/Direct3D.
I added some GLSL shaders into mine, which makes it look better, but sets it way back speed-wise (say, from 30 to 7 fps...).

Now, is the XNA framework free, or is it licensed, similar to the $99 for an iPhone Dev license? I've also been thinking of using a better program for later projects, say, the UDK, which looks promising, if you know the scripting language.
XNA could not only allow you to port to Xbox 360, but also to Zune, it appears!

lachoneus8

01-02-2010 23:46

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 911523)

The driver station view is actually backwards, it's less helpful than I'd like. :(

Yeah, unfortunately the code is pretty hardcoded to have the views where they are in the game world, and we have the field layed out backwards from the game world. We'll get it fixed, hopefully without another ugly hack!

Quote:

Originally Posted by playbass06 (Post 911583)

which also, unfortunately, doesn't support such awesome features as PhysX [it seems to emulate, or perhaps replace it with some other physics engine, though] or CUDA)

PhysX emulates in software what it can't do in hardware. Very nice feature. It also has a very open liscense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by playbass06 (Post 911583)

I see the field worked well for you

Yes, thank you very much! Just resized a couple things to match the spec, but other then that it worked out of the box. You'll see yourself in the credits at the end of a game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by playbass06 (Post 911583)

A Linux/Mac compatible port would be something to look into, but it would of course have to be limited to OpenGL graphics, which plain isn't as fast as DirectX/Direct3D.

The bigger problem is engine. There aren't too many good engines that support Linux for indie-style liscensing. Most that do use C++, which is a great language but also one not ideal for rapid development. One I've looked into is Ogre3d, which we might look to at some point, but a change of engine would take quite a bit of work so is not on the near horizon. We'd like to iterate on what we already have first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by playbass06 (Post 911583)

Now, is the XNA framework free, or is it licensed, similar to the $99 for an iPhone Dev license? I've also been thinking of using a better program for later projects, say, the UDK, which looks promising, if you know the scripting language.
XNA could not only allow you to port to Xbox 360, but also to Zune, it appears!

Completely free. MS likes having indie developers bring more content to Xbox 360s, zunes. XNA is a fabulous dev kit, allows for rapid development like none other, without being hampered in power and flexibility. I highly recommend it.

playbass06

02-02-2010 16:35

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Honestly, for rapid development, Blender is one of the best I've used. I mean, you have one, under 40 MB, program that can model, animate, render, script (with Python), and create games.
And for scripting, you really don't have to. There's a visually based "Logic Brick" system, which basically works with three sections of Sensors, Controllers, and Actuators. Fast enough to use, while easy to learn, but keeping enough flexibility to work better than those "click-to-create" programs. It's still rather limited, but works on all OS's (Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, and Irix!). Unfortunately, I have yet to figure out how to create games that will run on all systems without giving the actual .blend (Blender's file format) out, which would also give them every asset used in the game.
The main drawback is a very different layout, but it doesn't take too long to get used to.

I will look into XNA, though, it sounds very promising!

gblake

03-02-2010 23:11

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

4 Attachment(s)

Folks - We are planning to put some Controller explanations into the Robot Selection screens. These images are the candidates we have right now - Are they understandable? - Blake

Bill_B

04-02-2010 23:34

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I tried running a one-robot match. Two instances of the program. After the 135 seconds everything stopped and both instances would only exit without being able to run another round. I presume I have missed something, 'cause trotting into the server room to start each round just won't cut it.

Chris is me

05-02-2010 00:54

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_B (Post 913698)

5th Gear runs one game at a time. It's really not that bad.

gblake

05-02-2010 09:32

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_B (Post 913698)

Bill,

There are two subjects in your message - One is that everything stopped at 135. Can you get us the log files and configuration info (DirectX, Graphics cards, PhysX, XNA, OS and SP level, .Net) for your computers?

The other is your comment about trotting into the server room. Well, you shouldn't have to reboot computers between matches if that is what you meant, but you will have to push a button or two on the 5G server-software's GUI.

If that server-software GUI is being shown outside your server room, then I think you will be OK. If that GUI gets seen only in your server room, then you have a situation that doesn't match our typical set-up.

I can imagine us creating a simple "remote" GUI that could be used to control the server-software from across a LAN. It would take a few hours to create and would pay off in some situations, but we don't have that feature right now.

Let us know about the log and configuration info, and about whether your set-up is one that needs a remote GUI for 5th Gear's server-software.

Blake

Vikesrock

05-02-2010 10:12

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 913857)

There are two subjects in your message - One is that everything stopped at 135.

A Breakaway match is 2:15 or 135 seconds long.

gblake

05-02-2010 10:36

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vikesrock (Post 913876)

A Breakaway match is 2:15 or 135 seconds long.

Doh!!!!! - Color me embarassed :o - I didn't even think about that (obviously) - And I will forever instinctively think that all matches should be as long as they were in my rookie year (140 seconds). - Thanks Vikes

Bill - Near the bottom of the client GUI, you should see a thermometer-style graphical illustration, plus text, showing of how much time is left in a match; and in the final seconds you will see big semi-transparent numbers floating over field, counting down those final seconds.

That just leaves us with the do_we_need_to_create_a_remote-server-GUI_? question.

Blake

gblake

13-02-2010 20:18

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Folks,

This is a duplicate of a post I just put into a couple of threads about scouting - If you already saw the other one, you can skip this one.

I'm curious if anyone has tried using the 5th Gear Simulator as a way to test drive their scouting metrics or their scouting recording keeping tools/methods, or their scouts (the humans)?

Imagine this:

Install 5th Gear on enough computers for 6-player matches.
Have 12 of your team members pick a simulated robot and stick with that choice.
Run the 12 players through several 3 vs 3 qualifying matches while the scouts use your team's scouting tools/metrics.
At the end of the quals see if you have successfully identified the best player-plus-simulated-robot combinations and can agree on their rankings and/or suitability for allying with one another.
If you are in the mood, do a draft and see how the resulting alliances fare against one another.

5th Gear stores matches and lets you replay them (in the sense of reviewing them), so if scouts are missing important observations, replays can be used to train them; or if scouts are disagreeing about how to evaluate a robot/driver's performance they can look at the replay together and try to reach a consensus.

Finally, while I think this can be a great way to evaluate scouts, metrics and tools, a word of caution is apropos. Remember that a simulation is not reality. At best it is an useful approximation of important aspects of a match and leaves out others. For example, 5th Gear doesn't simulate what happens when a harried pit crew forgets to install a fully charged battery, or when a weak axle or weld bend or breaks under stress during an important match, or ...

Blake
PS: 5th Gear doesn't simulate end-of-game hanging/lifting. To factor this into a scouting exercise; roll dice to see which robots that were in position at the end of a match should be given the bonus points (while the other bots continue to score regular points).
PPS: 5th Gear doesn't assess penalties. Assign a few people to referee duty and let them keep track of penalties if you want that level of realism. They can watch over the shoulders of the players and/o watch the server's monitor.

[TBT] Vampire

18-02-2010 17:34

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Game works great! Thanks 5th Gear! We spent an entire lunch session LAN-ing this at one of our meetings. It was awesome!

gblake

18-02-2010 18:37

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by [TBT] Vampire (Post 923251)

Game works great! Thanks 5th Gear! We spent an entire lunch session LAN-ing this at one of our meetings. It was awesome!

Great!

Did you have any "Ah-Hah!" moments when the simulator gave you an insight you didn't have without it? or was it just fun to see who could pwn who?

Either answer means we did our job well.

Blake

Chris is me

18-02-2010 19:11

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 923326)

Great!

Did you have any "Ah-Hah!" moments when the simulator gave you an insight you didn't have without it? or was it just fun to see who could pwn who?

Either asnwer means we did our job well.

Blake

If you guys want to know any direct design and strategy decisions that the game helped me make, the solidification of a midfield oriented robot with roughtop over KoP rubber to outpush at the return. Other teammates used my tunnel use in the 20 point video as rationale to build an 18 inch bot... :rolleyes:

[TBT] Vampire

18-02-2010 19:37

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 923326)

Lol yes sir we did have a few of those moments.
Buttttt mostly it was a who could pwn who thing.
:D

gblake

18-02-2010 22:07

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 923345)

Quote:

Originally Posted by [TBT] Vampire (Post 923373)

Lol yes sir we did have a few of those moments.
Buttttt mostly it was a who could pwn who thing.
:D

Thanks guys - The reason I pester folks for feedback is because we have so many directions we can take as we improve the software, and I'm looking for clues about the best paths to take. Any time I can tease a few details out of someone, it's a good thing.

Blake

gblake

18-02-2010 22:22

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Version 2.1 Released!

See this update in the FIRST 5th Gear Forum
Version 2.1 Announcement. It includes some bug fixes and few modest improvements.

Thank you David and Dave.

Enjoy!

Blake

Chris is me

18-02-2010 22:30

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Didn't install for me. Can't fund a texture file...

Did the off center holonomic drive thingy get fixed? I figured out if you grabbed a ball and tried to strafe, the robot would basically "orbit" a point forward of the robot and ball.

Wildcat

20-02-2010 11:42

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Keep getting an error saying "Unhandled Exception: The given key was not present in the dictionary" I've gotten this on around 4 computers now, and only 1 computer is working

Joe6391

20-02-2010 16:51

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Same error here.

I can get the server running, but when I attempt to connect the error: "Unhandled Exception: The given key was not present in the dictionary" pops up.

gblake

20-02-2010 17:49

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe6391 (Post 924698)

... "Unhandled Exception: The given key was not present in the dictionary" ...

Guys - Thanks for the heads up - I'll make sure David hears about this ASAP so that he can try figure out what is different from our test environment(s) - Blake

Chris is me

20-02-2010 17:55

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I reinstalled the old 5th Gear 2 so I could still play. If anyone wants the old version, PM me. Also, if anyone has 5th Gear 1.x, I deleted my ZIP on accident...

gblake

20-02-2010 17:57

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 924747)

I reinstalled the old 5th Gear 2 so I could still play. If anyone wants the old version, PM me. Also, if anyone has 5th Gear 1.x, I deleted my ZIP on accident...

Keeping older version available for a while sounds like another item to put on our ToDo list.

Blake

harpal1991

20-02-2010 19:21

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

i am having a problem with installation. when i downloaded it i installed phyx on my pc and separately installed the .net 3.5 and the xna and till when i run the setup.exe i get the application install security warning; and when i press install its gives me a message saying "application cannot be started. please contact the application vendor" here is the detail file

Code:

PLATFORM VERSION INFO

        Windows                         : 6.0.6002.131072 (Win32NT)

        Common Language Runtime         : 2.0.50727.4200

        System.Deployment.dll                 : 2.0.50727.4016 (NetFxQFE.050727-4000)

        mscorwks.dll                         : 2.0.50727.4200 (NetFxQFE.050727-4200)

        dfdll.dll                         : 2.0.50727.4016 (NetFxQFE.050727-4000)

        dfshim.dll                         : 2.0.50727.4016 (NetFxQFE.050727-4000)



SOURCES

        Deployment url                        : file:///C:/Users/habby/Documents/Downloads/Compressed/5thGear2010v2_1/5thGear.application

        Application url                        : file:///C:/Users/habby/Documents/Downloads/Compressed/5thGear2010v2_1/Application%20Files/5thGear_2_1_0_212/5thGear.exe.manifest



IDENTITIES

        Deployment Identity                : 5thGear.application, Version=2.1.0.212, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=0000000000000000, processorArchitecture=x86

        Application Identity                : 5thGear.exe, Version=2.1.0.212, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=0000000000000000, processorArchitecture=x86, type=win32



APPLICATION SUMMARY

        * Installable application.



ERROR SUMMARY

        Below is a summary of the errors, details of these errors are listed later in the log.

        * Activation of C:\Users\habby\Documents\Downloads\Compressed\5thGear2010v2_1\5thGear.application resulted in exception. Following failure messages were detected:

                + Store metadata "DeploymentSourceUri" is not valid.



COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION FAILURE SUMMARY

        No transaction error was detected.



WARNINGS

        * The manifest for this application does not have a signature. Signature validation will be ignored.

        * The manifest for this application does not have a signature. Signature validation will be ignored.



OPERATION PROGRESS STATUS

        * [2/20/2010 5:57:14 PM] : Activation of C:\Users\habby\Documents\Downloads\Compressed\5thGear2010v2_1\5thGear.application has started.

        * [2/20/2010 5:57:14 PM] : Processing of deployment manifest has successfully completed.

        * [2/20/2010 5:57:14 PM] : Installation of the application has started.

        * [2/20/2010 5:57:14 PM] : Processing of application manifest has successfully completed.

        * [2/20/2010 5:58:27 PM] : Request of trust and detection of platform is complete.

        * [2/20/2010 5:58:29 PM] : Downloading of subscription dependencies is complete.

        * [2/20/2010 5:58:29 PM] : Commit of the downloaded application has started.



ERROR DETAILS

        Following errors were detected during this operation.

        * [2/20/2010 5:58:30 PM] System.Deployment.Application.DeploymentException (SubscriptionState)

                - Store metadata "DeploymentSourceUri" is not valid.

                - Source: System.Deployment

                - Stack trace:

                        at System.Deployment.Application.ComponentStore.GetPropertyString(DefinitionAppId appId, String propName)

                        at System.Deployment.Application.ComponentStore.GetPropertyUri(DefinitionAppId appId, String propName)

                        at System.Deployment.Application.ComponentStore.GetSubscriptionStateInternal(DefinitionIdentity subId)

                        at System.Deployment.Application.SubscriptionStore.GetSubscriptionStateInternal(SubscriptionState subState)

                        at System.Deployment.Application.ComponentStore.CollectCrossGroupApplications(Uri codebaseUri, DefinitionIdentity deploymentIdentity, Boolean& identityGroupFound, Boolean& locationGroupFound, String& identityGroupProductName)

                        at System.Deployment.Application.SubscriptionStore.CommitApplication(SubscriptionState& subState, CommitApplicationParams commitParams)

                        at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.InstallApplication(SubscriptionState& subState, ActivationDescription actDesc)

                        at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.PerformDeploymentActivation(Uri activationUri, Boolean isShortcut, String textualSubId, String deploymentProviderUrlFromExtension, BrowserSettings browserSettings, String& errorPageUrl)

                        at System.Deployment.Application.ApplicationActivator.ActivateDeploymentWorker(Object state)



COMPONENT STORE TRANSACTION DETAILS

        No transaction information is available.

Chris is me

20-02-2010 20:06

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

This may be too much to ask, but could I suggest a controls revamp?

For all but one driving mode, both joysticks are in use, so using the face buttons for ball manipulation is a bit difficult. Could the shoulder buttons be used for that? LB return, RB grab, RT fire?

Also, arcade drive with one thumbstick is a little difficult. In most FRC applications, arcade turning is assigned to the other stick anyway. Could that be done in 5th gear?

gblake

24-02-2010 07:41

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Folks - We have updated the 2.1 5th Gear release - See here 5G Version 2.1.1 Announcement

Subscribing to the FIRST 5th Gear Forum (and to this thread) would be a good idea if you want to keep up with new releases.

Blake

gblake

24-02-2010 07:45

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by harpal1991 (Post 924802)

Code:

PLATFORM VERSION INFO

...

No transaction information is available.

harpal - I'm not sure if we intentionally did anything that would fix the problem you reported; but we would appreciate it if you would download and try the latest release (2.1.1) to see if the problem you reported got fixed as a side effect of the other fixes.

Let us know in the FIRST 5th Gear forum or here how it turns out.

Thanks
Blake

harpal1991

24-02-2010 19:23

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

hey thanks for the reply and i have tried downloading the new version of the app but still the same problem presists. if you guys could do me a favor caop all the files in the instrall folder and send video a uploading service just to see if i have all the files

Alex_Miller

02-03-2010 20:54

ATI Vid Card

is it possible to play this with an ATI card? Seeing as how you need the Nvidia Physx engine and all..

lachoneus8

03-03-2010 10:13

Re: ATI Vid Card

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterAlex (Post 930705)

is it possible to play this with an ATI card? Seeing as how you need the Nvidia Physx engine and all..

Yes. PhysX uses NVidia hardware if it is available, but if not it will process the physics using software emulation (slower, but should run just fine).

playbass06

05-03-2010 21:32

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

By the way, guys, thanks a bunch for the quick update you gave us at KC. It solved the problems. We started a few rounds of our 5th Gear tournament today, and it's going fairly well.
And Intel integrated graphics seem to handle PhysX just fine - as does Intel GMA HD cards! (I find it odd how I had a GeForce 7150M that hated PhysX, yet non-nVidia cards work beautifully...)
I think one of you said you had also run into problems with XNA 3.1, but on my laptop it doesn't seem to create any problems.
And I think I heard you were going to be at Minnesota?

gblake

06-03-2010 00:10

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Sounds like we gave away too many fixes in one shot - What will we do for an encore? - We need to learn to pace ourselves ;)

We are delighted it worked well - Kudos to David Dobbs for getting us over the hump on that one.

Friday afternoon a couple of players in DC helped us pin down the source of the problem (or at least got us much closer to a diagnosis than we were before) - For a reward we gave them both a 5th Gear polo shirt - There are only 60 in all the world - They are sure to become a valuable collectible (I had better not see them show up on eBay... ;)).

Yes - Employees/volunteers form Lockheed Martin's Eagan plant are planning to run a 5th Gear exhibit are the Minnesota Regional(s).

Blake

Chris is me

07-03-2010 13:44

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Any word on whether or not this will be at WPI? I just found out I'm going and would like to know how much of my free time will be spent away from my team :)

gblake

07-03-2010 17:49

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 932783)

Any word on whether or not this will be at WPI? I just found out I'm going and would like to know how much of my free time will be spent away from my team :)

I am unaware if the WPI Regional will include a 5th Gear set-up.

However... If 7 teams each brought one computer/monitor (already proved to run the simulator) and one Xbox Controller, and someone tossed in a LAN switch, seven Ethernet cables, and some power strips - Then, after scrounging up a couple of tables and a power outlet at the event, the answer would be a definite "Yes".

If some of you decide to do this (take the stone soup approach to putting together a set-up), then let me know so that I can send one of you a slightly different copy of the executable and a batch file to automatically restart it after each match.

Blake
PS: Double check with your hosts at WPI before doing this - Not all floor space that appears available actually is available, and not all power circuits will have extra Amps for surprise loads. One phone call or email exchange ought to be enough to pave the way.

gblake

31-03-2010 08:44

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Folks - FYI - A programming challenge that can involve 5th Gear

Challenge Thread: Full Thread
Original Challenge: Original Post
My Reply: 5th Gear Post

Blake

Chris is me

31-03-2010 08:52

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Is there an API or something for 5th gear robots? I would love to try some psuedo programming / AI algorithms for Overdrive in my spare time (I used big words to make me sound smart)... is this possible?

gblake

31-03-2010 09:06

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 946194)

There is an informal description of the interface between the Server and the client that needs to be polished and made more detailed before publication, and there is my Java client-side Client-Server communication code that could be updated and compiled into a set of class files that could be distributed (so that other Java code could incorporate them).

I figure I'm about 40 labor-hours away from being able to release those two items. I also have to get my taxes filed and prep for the 5th Gear exhibit at the Championships, and keep an eye on the Week 5 exhibits, and participate in a May Vex off-season event locally, and design/build some Vex bots that will be used in community College workshops this summer, and take some Vex bots to our local 4H office to show to a Virginia House of Delegates member, and ...

No - I'm not looking for pity ;) but I am explaining why I/we haven't released these two items quite yet.

However, when I saw the other thread I couldn't resist letting folks know that it is possible to release them in the near future, and that those 40 hours might rise up nearer the top of my to-do list if there is enough interest (the tax man and the Championship exhibit have to stay at the top of the list).

Blake

Rangel

19-04-2010 14:58

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I just have one question. What are the controls for tank drive and is it possible to change the point of view so that you watch your robot from the alliance station? Also, is it possible to change the buttons for what they do by changing the code? Well, I guess that's actually 2 questions.

gblake

20-04-2010 22:54

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) (Post 955376)

We have one point of view that is supposed to be the view from the drivers' stations (select it using the yellow button), but based on the comments we have gotten, I think we need to adjust it a bit.

Both the locations of the viewpoints and the button assignments are things we can put under users' control (XML tagged entries in a text file); but we have not implemented either of those yet. However, by putting your request in this thread, you have put it into the material we will use when planning improvements - Thanks for the help

Blake
PS: If you subscribe to this thread, you will hear about any updates we are able to release before next season.

Rangel

22-04-2010 14:43

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Hey I was wondering if you could also make it so that you can drive with joysticks. That would really help my team a lot since our main driver is leaving.

Thanks

Bjenks548

11-05-2010 15:26

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Hi i downloaded 5th gear yesterday and love it, however i can not play overdrive or lunacy. When i start a server, it is locked onto breakaway, do i need to download older versions of 5th gear to play these two games?

Chris is me

11-05-2010 16:50

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bjenks548 (Post 961627)

Yes. I used to have the latest copy of the older versions, but I lost them...

Bjenks548

11-05-2010 17:10

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

thanks, if anyone has a link to them, please post it

dag0620

11-05-2010 18:59

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Yes I would appreciate it if someone did. Breakaway is fun in all, but I really want to play overdrive bad!!!!

Thuvishan.R

15-05-2010 17:22

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Managed to score 22 using a 469 strategy 1v0 hopefully i can figure out how to record replay's to show you. Did not take me long to figure the simulator out it is truly a great program to use for strategic purposes.

Chris is me

15-05-2010 18:30

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thuvishan.R (Post 962275)

I've gotten to 31, and 26 on video. The only problem is my game isn't saving replays automatically for some reason so I have to turn on my screen capture program in advance to get proof of my high scores.

Some pro tips for getting high scores:

Ignore the 4th ball in the back
Get your cycle going evenly and quickly with 5 balls in it
Drive forward as you kick.
Don't be afraid to "plunge" into the forward zone if there are more than 3 balls in the path of the goal. A good rule of thumb is that if there are more on the floor in front of the goal than on the return in the last 30, take the plunge and exploit the return glitches for extra points. (This is a good reason to cycle toward the right, since the return glitch bounces balls there)

--

I'm interested to see what the best 3v3 strategies are. At the Championship, I noticed a lot more Goalie use than I thought. Games were often decided by lockups, and unlike FRC pushing matches, lockups leave teams at a standstill. Tunnelers, since they basically can't strafe with the ball, are effectively useless with the tunnel so congested and their kick range so little. My general strategy was to run a cycler, a generally frontbot who could run picks for the cycler in either the front or middle zone, and then a pure flex bot that would advance for the 2v1 or back out for d. None of these were well suited to Goalies.

If they have 5th Gear at IRI again... I know where I'll be on every single break.

BrendanB

15-05-2010 23:54

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

My record is 21 and yes leaving the fourth ball, kick while drive, and 469 idea work the best especially since all balls roll to the far zone. My only issues are the balls are always in motion, it is impossible to run up against a wall making herding hard, and just seems kinda slow but overall it is a great tool. I have noticed new things in a game I wouldn't have before.

I too hope there is 5th Gear at IRI, I really want to play with at least a second robot on the field!

Chris and I just might own together! ;)

Chris is me

16-05-2010 02:31

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 962341)

Chris and I just might own together! ;)

Find me and we'll make it happen. I always wanted 2791 to play with 1519, but this is close enough for me. :)

---

Is there any chance of implementing proper strafing for the Tunneler with posession of a ball by IRI? I would probably use the Tunneler if it had that and / or a faster zero point turn.

Bjenks548

16-05-2010 08:54

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

When you talk about 469 strategy, did u modify a bot to have a deflecter on it?

Chris is me

16-05-2010 08:56

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bjenks548 (Post 962375)

When you talk about 469 strategy, did u modify a bot to have a deflecter on it?

Nope, I don't think there's a simple way to modify bots yet. Start a cycle and manually grab the balls once they hit the ground and kick em in the goals.

My previous 20 record approach kind of used it, but when you get 5 started and keep it going for almost the entire match without disruption (tricker than it sounds thanks to the three in front of the convenient right hand goal), you can break 30.

BrendanB

16-05-2010 17:16

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 962362)

That would be cool, I was really disappointed that 2791 wasn't in Atlanta or IRI as I really wanted to check out your robot up close. :(

I agree with the suggestions for the tunneler. I think the goalie robot would be a good robot if it only had a faster turning ability and some sort of ball handler as the kicker is amazing from the far zone. Also, I didn't see it in the instructions, but is there a way to make the balls get on the ball return faster? 20 secs is a long time for them to go from the goal to the rails with some human players getting them on 5 seconds from coming through the goal.

Even if there is no official simulator, I bet a bunch of us geeks could LAN up a few laptops and play a few rounds on lunch break or something! ;)

Chris is me

16-05-2010 19:03

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 962451)

I agree with the suggestions for the tunneler. I think the goalie robot would be a good robot if it only had a faster turning ability and some sort of ball handler as the kicker is amazing from the far zone. Also, I didn't see it in the instructions, but is there a way to make the balls get on the ball return faster? 20 secs is a long time for them to go from the goal to the rails with some human players getting them on 5 seconds from coming through the goal.

When you see the timer, hit Left shift (or Red on Xbox). The newest version has this on screen.

Rangel

17-05-2010 14:26

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Does anyone know how to maximize the window or somehow make it full screen even though the maximize button is disabled?

Bjenks548

17-05-2010 15:02

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb) (Post 962578)

Does anyone know how to maximize the window or somehow make it full screen even though the maximize button is disabled?

Yea, theres a full screen option under graffic settings

gblake

25-05-2010 14:10

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Folks,

Not too long from now I think I'll be in the market for a beta tester or two for some Java 5th Gear work I'm doing. Can I get a couple of volunteers?

I think I will give you some pre-compiled class files and let you tell me how easy (or horrible) it is to complile them into a application you write to use them.

Part of this will include me supplying good enough written descriptions for what the classes do.

Before any student volunteers, they must have all of their school work under control (You already have a guaranteed A in all of your classes or you have already taken all of your final exams). :)

These software classes are less important than school classes; and won't be ready for a couple weeks or so anyway.

Blake

BrendanB

25-05-2010 22:33

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by gblake (Post 963793)

Just for clarification, is that testing software, programming, or a combination of both? I am a little confused.

New score of 29. This simulator is so much fun, thank you so much for making this! :)

gblake

26-05-2010 07:58

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrendanB (Post 963897)

Just for clarification, is that testing software, programming, or a combination of both? I am a little confused.

New score of 29. This simulator is so much fun, thank you so much for making this! :)

First - You are welcome - Mentors never tire of hearing that.

My big picture goal is making the simulator more of a learning/mentoring tool than it is already. The software I want to release will be a lure meant to entice students to do some fun coding on their own.

What I will supply is a a set of classes that can communicate with a 5th Gear server. They will also expose a) (in a list of objects) all the data a 5th Gear client gets about the states of the simulated game objects, the score, and the time left in a match; and b) an API you can use to feed robot-control commands into the server.

Right now I intend for my code (in a single computer) to be able to replace from one to six clients .

I will have some cheesy 2D graphics built in for simple visualization of where the game pieces and robots are on the field.

On your end of things, I am hoping for three sorts of beta testing 1) Can you pull my classes into a main routine you write and successfully interact with them (display/analyze a robot/ball's location, movement, etc.), 2) can you issue orders to a robot (move, turn, grab, kick), and 3) does my simple GUI make sense to you and what shortcuts do I need to build into it for ease-of-use.

I am expecting that the early testers will uncover some bugs and will have some advice for ways to (re)organize the APIs, the simple GUI and/or the instructions for how to use the classes. I have had my head buried in this for so long, some things that seem obvious to me will probably be as clear as mud to you.

Once the code is ready for prime-time, users will be able to use it to write their own clients (AI or 3D graphics practice anyone?) and user interfaces, to develop simulations of sensors, to do some off-season experimenting with driver control hardware, etc. without having to implement the boring guts of client-server communication protocol.

If our physics were better and a library of accurate sensor simulations already existed, I would even suggest doing some autonomous control coding experiments, but I'm going to soft-sell that topic until the physics modeling gets a major refresh.

Blake

Chris is me

27-05-2010 00:40

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

I'd be willing to help out.

gblake

28-05-2010 16:50

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Chris - Great - I'll take you up on it - If we are successful enough for you to be able to take a customized client to IRI that would be a nice achievement. PM me (or write to the address in my signature) to tell me how I can connect with you.

Brendan - Did I scare you off? :)

About IRI - I think that the IRI organizers are planning to repeat having 5th Gear there for the 3rd year in a row; but... Let's let them be the people who actually commit (or don't) - I think that they will be able to do it; but I'm not promising for them.

The other recent suggestions are all good (fix tunnler strafing, revive previous games, etc.) and are either problems we know we need to fix or improvements we hope to work in over the summer.

Cleaning up the existing code and so that we can efficiently expand the number people in our development team, and actually coordinating that expansion are competing for our time. The result will be good and will accelerate progress, but the start-up delay is frustrating for you and us - Thanks for sticking with us and for all the kind words about liking and using the simulator.

Let's get these client classes ready for distribution and then while you (our users) are having fun with them, I/we will move on to the next items in our fix/improvment lists.

Blake

BrendanB

28-05-2010 17:22

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Okay, I'm in! Sorry I've had a ton going on with getting ready for a vacation/roadtrip without robots involved:D !

gblake

01-06-2010 22:55

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Hey Folks - I just sent a (pre-Alpha level) chunk of code to my two Beta Testers - I/we will be in touch as the code, API specs, interface specs and any other documentation progress from today's levels to a ready-for-primetime release - Blake

gblake

10-06-2010 14:19

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

Folks,

This is a new subtopic.

Imagine I am letting hordes of non-FIRST newbies use 5th Gear in an open-to-the-public exhibit. I am also letting some subset of the 5th Gear users drive a real FRC Breakaway bot after they use the 5th Gear simulator.

I want to use some non-arbitrary method for selecting which one of the six 5th Gear players gets to be the one person who earns some time at the sticks of the real robot.

I am thinking of inserting some sort of skill/performance metric tracker into the 5th Gear software. It would become sort of an automated scouting system that reaches a conclusion at the end of just one match and that relies on things that can be more or less easily tracked within the simulator.

Here is the result of my initial brainstorming (about 10 minutes of thought has gone into it so far - better ideas are welcome).

Passing a ball from the defensive zone to the midfield = 1 scouting pt for the shooter
Passing a ball from the defensive zone to the offensive zone = 1.5 scouting pt for the shooter
Passing a ball from the midfield zone to the offensive zone = 1 scouting pt for the shooter
A shot on goal = 1 scouting pt for the shooter (add 0.5 pt if the shot also qualifies as a pass from another zone into the offensive zone)
A goal from anywhere = 2 scouting pt for the last friendly player that touched it (and maybe 1 pt for an ally that passed it to the shooter?)
Blocking an opponent's shot on goal = 1 scouting pt

The player who accumulates the most scouting points in a match gets to drive the real robot for a couple of minutes.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Alternatives?

The results needs to reward good strategy and good execution from anywhere on the field, instead of only rewarding goals scored.

Blake

JesseK

11-06-2010 14:25

Re: 2010 5th Gear FRC Match Simulator

As someone who's both driven the simulation and an FRC robot, I'd recommend constraining those who want to drive the robot to playing the simulation from the driver's station point of view only. That way the drivers who've never touched an FRC robot are less likely to ram it into something as soon as they touch the real robot's controls.

Does a midfield score = 2pts for person who shot it + 1pt for a "pass" from mid to offensive zone for a total of 3 points?

Does shooting a moving (kinetic) ball from defensive zone to midfield count as 2 points or 1? How should players realistically expect to get points for a 'blocked shot', given the extra computation needed to know if the ball was truly about to go in a goal?

Along the same lines, if someone miraculously scores a kinetic ball from the defensive zone, is that
1 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 4.5? (block + def->off + score)

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