Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

Yes, but how can you tell the difference between a robot that is trying to tip another robot and a robot that is just trying to prevent another from crossing the bump and entering a different zone?

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

Simple, as Al stated earlier repeated purposeful offenses are easily detected by trained field hands and refs, not to mention all the other teams that are watching you and realizing they don't want to be associated with teams participating in such actions. There's also the matter of Gracious Professionalism and honor that should prevent teams from performing such blatant rule violations.

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

Here is the key of the issue.

Let's say the opponent is designed such that it is very difficult to trip their robot over, on or off the bump. Let's say their robot was tipped over after engaging in a pushing match with your robot on the bump. Is it considered a penalty if:

1. The tipping resulted from accidental contacts between the two robots.
2. The tipping resulted from bumper to bumper interactions between the two robots.
3. The tipping resulted from aggressive maneuvers from your robot.

Ok, second scenario.

Let's say the opponent is designed such that it is very easy to tip their robot over on the bump (a slight touch would do). Let's say their robot was tipped over after engaging in a pushing match with your robot on the bump. Is it considered a penalty if:

1. The tipping resulted from accidental contacts between the two robots.
2. The tipping resulted from bumper to bumper interactions between the two robots.
3. The tipping resulted from aggressive maneuvers from your robot.


To me, the opponent must bear some responsibility in designing their robot such that when they are crossing the bump, they cannot be tipped easily. Otherwise, no one will dare doing any sort of defense on the bump. If any actions that lead to a tipped robot also lead to a penalty, regardless of the situation, I am just going to let the opponent cross the bump.

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

Agreed.

I don't think it should matter if the other robot tipped or if the other robot broke. If your robot was agressively intending to break or tip another robot, it should be a penalty, regardless of the result.

As an analogy, in football penalties are not thrown when a player get hurts but when an illegal hit occured. It doesn't matter if the QB suffers a concusion, a helmet to helmet hit results in a 15 yard penalty. Bringing this idea back to the first word, it doesn't matter if the other robot breaks or tips, contact outside the bumperzone or contact with intent to damage results in a penalty.




(Although, I'm tempted to build a robot that is super tipy to teams would be afraid to get even close to me :D )

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

There is no merit to the differences between these scenarios, for this argument, strategy aimed at tipping your opponents are illegal and incur a yellow card under the violation of rule <G36>. The differences you've presented are whether or not the opponents robot is properly engineered to be as stable as possible or it is easily tippable. In the cases of accidental collisions it would be accidental and would incur no penalty. Although it does not matter whether the interaction was within the legal bumper zone or it was not purposefully tipping you opponents is an illegal action. Also aggressive actions would be considered purposeful and will incur a penalty.

For the actions you've presented on playing defense to a robot on a bump the best action, on your part, would be to stand in the opposing robots way, and push back with your robot as fit to prevent their forward movement. With this you should be able to prevent tipping on both sides, and if tipping does occur, in my opinion under these circumstances it would be considered accidental and therefore legal.

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

They did say that you should build a robot that could right itself. Back in the day many a robot were pushed up the 30 degree ramp and then fell down. I never saw one penalty called and everyone knew what was happening. What I suggest has been suggested already. Put it on the Q&A and see what response you get. After all, they designed the game and rules so they can give the answers.

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

I agree completely. Our robot, on it's own should not tip over during normal bump crossings. We are, however, one of those robots that "hangs over" as it attempts to cross the bump. We fully expect to be tipped at some point when making an ill advised bump crossing and will be prepared for when it happens.

As a coach I lobbied heavily for righting capability as I didn't want to be responsible for making the call (to go over the bump) that got us flipped and have sit there helpless the rest of the match. As a team we decided that the penalty (not in the rules sense of the word) for being flipped was too great to take the risk of not being able to get back up.

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

Makes me glad we are not in a week one regional. The calls will be interesting.

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

And makes me annoyed we are :(

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

The following question is submitted in the Q&A Forum:

""<G36> ROBOT to ROBOT Interaction - Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not in the spirit of the FRC and are not allowed. Violation: YELLOW CARD"

I am looking for a clarification on the implication of G36 on Robot to Robot interactions occurring on the bump. For any robots designed to deny a particular zone from opponents, specifically, to deny it from opponents who cannot travel through the tunnel, it could be a really tricky situation to be in.

Consider the following scenarios:

Let's say the opponent is designed such that it is very difficult to trip their robot over, on or off the bump. Let's say their robot was tipped over after engaging in a pushing match with your robot on the bump. Is it considered a penalty if:

1. The tipping resulted from accidental contacts between the two robots.
2. The tipping resulted from bumper to bumper interactions between the two robots.
3. The tipping resulted from aggressive maneuvers from your robot.

Ok, second scenario.

Let's say the opponent is designed such that it is very easy to tip their robot over on the bump (a slight touch would do). Let's say their robot was tipped over after engaging in a pushing match with your robot on the bump. Is it considered a penalty if:

1. The tipping resulted from accidental contacts between the two robots.
2. The tipping resulted from bumper to bumper interactions between the two robots.
3. The tipping resulted from aggressive maneuvers from your robot.

(Bear in mind all of these could happen within a split second, so it could be very hard to tell what actually happened during a match.)


I understand teams are told to be really careful about the possibility of tipping while going over the bump. I understand teams are encouraged to build self-righting mechanisms on their robots. I also understands teams should not intentionally tip another robot over, whether the opponents are going over the bump or not.

It would be really helpful, however, to know if the ruling will be more critical toward robots unstable on the bump, more critical toward robots defending the bump from robots unstable on the bump, or equally critical to both."

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

A) It may not be a rule violation based on interpretation. So I'm not sure the GP/honor spiel applies.

B) How do you tell something is purposeful? Do you know what that driver is thinking or what the strategy of the team is/was?

I think 06 is a good reference, many fell over without any penalties/yellow cards due to bumper to bumper interaction. Its just the cost of doing business with steep ramps.

As Steve W pointed out they told you to be able to right yourself in the kickoff broadcast. They said to be aware of a high center of gravity.

If the bumps are safe zones all of a sudden I hope the GDC says so clearly and soon. If this is 05 again we should know and be prepared.

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

Response from the GDC:

So, like many said earlier, I would be interested in seeing how the definition of "aggressive ROBOT behavior" evolve over the weeks. We are going to San Diego in week 1, so that will be very interesting.

Certainly ramming at full speed up the bump at the belly of the opponent can be defined as aggressive. But where is the line?

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

One thing that caught my eye was the penalty for violating <G36>. Or, more accurately, the lack of one. <G36> violations receive a YELLOW CARD, but no explicit PENALTY. This is the only rule that I can find that has this particular punishment. Two or more YELLOW CARDS turn into RED CARDS per the Tournament rules, but to me this would indicate that you get one "get out of jail free" card per event (actually, one in the qualification rounds and one in the elimination rounds since you get a clean slate for the playoffs).

Lawyering the rules? Absolutely - but I'd rather the discussion begin now than after my robot has been intentionally flipped on Einstein...

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

Read also <G38>

Re: Tipping opponents robots
 

We'll be competing in week 1 as well, hopefully they'll be a bit understanding while we're all learning how to play the game...

After reading the GDC response I feel like I have a better understanding of this whole situation except for "Aggressive Robot Behavior". I'll probably have my Driver's ask the Head Ref about this during the Driver's Meeting before Qualifications just so that we can get a feel for how the refs will be making calls.

In my experiences as a Driver I found that What I considered to be non-aggressive contact usually is the exact opposite. Whoops.