Staying in Zones
 

I've been thinking about game strategy for quite a while now, and I am becoming increasingly convinced that it will be useless and possibly even detrimental for robots to move away into different zones than their starting ones. It just doesn't seem like it's worth all the extra trouble. As such, it seems as though being able to effectively pass will be a big one.

All three zones are equally important in my eyes. The one closest to the goal is for scoring easily, the one in the middle is for retrieving and passing forward scored balls that return, and the far zone is for stealing balls and passing forward the opponents missed/stray balls. Since all of these zones require attention, what's the point of leaving one? You are just creating a disadvantage for yourself as you are lettings your opponents robots have free reign over a zone. I think the balls will be relatively equally spread out between zones, despite the fact that they only return to the middle. After all, the goals aren't in the middle are they? Why would the balls be concentrated there of all places?

Is anyone else thinking some of the same things as me?

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Yes.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

The only strategy I see as a possibility is to move the defender up to the middle zone for ball control. But otherwise I think the matches will play out like you have described.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Depending where teams are positioned from the beginning, they might need to be able to move to different zones if they intend to hang in the last 20 seconds. Passing will also be very important to get more balls on your side of the field, but if the other team gains possession of most of the balls you might need some backup in the middle zone. Even if your robot is small enough to go under the tunnel, the robot with the bumpers would be a tight squeeze and the tunnel exit could be blocked. So I wouldn't say that being able to move to different zones is completely useless. I think the drivetrain is pretty key in this game and is just as essential as scoring, hanging, passing, and defense.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I think moving will be very important. For example, lets say your defending robot zone has been cleared of all four starting balls and no more have entered. You need to be able to move it into the middle zone to assist with control of the reentering balls. This goes vice versa with the scoring side. There's no reason your robot should be sitting in a zone doing nothing for more than 5 seconds. A waiting robot is a wasted robot.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Also, what do you do if an alliance partner breaks down. Do you leave your zone to cover for the disabled robot or stay in your zone? You'll need some flexibility.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I can only imagine that being where the balls are is going to be the most important thing, and with only twelve on the field maximum at a time, being able to make snap decisions and move from zone to zone seems extremely important. The only way I can see a match where robots stay in their own zones is an alliance that 'kicks' balls perfectly from zone to zone and an all star robot in the center. A sight to behold, I'm sure, but I would rely more on adaptability (as with pretty much every other aspect of the build season). :cool:

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I could see after you clear the opponent’s zone you might want to move to the center zone and help your team mate collect the balls from the over head drop. If a few are taken by your opponent that’s no problem it helps with you score as long as you control the majority. But than when teams wise up to this than you will end up with four in the center zone. That will make it crowded but necessary. I think controlling the center will be the game breaker.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

To make the analogy to a soccer match, each team is a specialized "player" and they should stay in their respective zones and do their specialized jobs for the benefit of the alliance. The "defender" should block the goals while moving balls (launching?) forward. The "midfielder" should keep balls that are re-entering play from moving into opponent zones. The "striker" should be able to solely focus on scoring because balls are constantly moving into his zone, if his alliance does its job. Team coordination is paramount.

Also, keep in mind that if you do leave your zone, it is open to your opponents. I seriously forsee virtual 1-v-1 matches in each zone.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Sticking with the soccer analogy...each player should be talented in their individual zone and skill set, yes; but having a defender who can overlap the midfielder and go to goal is quite an advantage. Midfielders usually play both ways effectively. Referring to the MLS, if you watched the Sounders play up your way you'd notice that Leo Gonzalez and James Riley frequently advanced up the field into the attack when the opportunity was there. (okay...so 27 years of soccer playing/coaching/watching is revealed here).

I agree that there will be three 1v1 matches going on, but if one gets lopsided, changing thirds may be the only way to rescue your alliance. Also handy if you have a dead bot, flipped bot, or a no-show to a seeding match. Ever get paired with a team who forgot a charged battery, lost a motor, or ??? :eek:

If your alliance has cleared most of the balls into the attacking 3rd it would be beneficial to advance to the midfield to aid in the movement of balls to the attacking 3rd. (and if you are that dominant you'd better give the other alliance a chance to score anyhow as per 9.3.x).

Re: Staying in Zones
 

One thing we've been working on is modeling matches with robots of different strengths. A few examples to give you ideas:

- If a robot breaks down in a zone, how does that affect the ball distribution (and the score)?

- If a robot is horribly overmatched by the opponent in their zone, how does that affect the ball distribution?

- How does the human player ball return rate affect the distribution?

One thing to keep in mind from what we know about sports... uneven pairings are horribly ineffectual. Think about football - if the receiver is significantly faster/more agile than the defender, he can get open for a pass a lot more often. Or soccer - if the defender is a lot slower than the attacker, he won't be able to keep up. Or Basketball... the parallels are there.

Also consider strategy. If your middle player is horribly outmatched or breaks down, what do you do? Does your scorer come back to help? If so, what does the opposition defender do - follow the scorer or stay put and just kick back any balls the scorer sends over into that zone? Does your defender push forward to help, and sacrifice any points for balls that are already in the zone, but potentially stop more balls from getting into score-able position?

Having a good modeling system and a good way of determining all the robots abilities is going to be extremely important in determining strategy this year - much more so than years past, when robots would typically engage with any/all of their opposition at different points in the match.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

My team thought the exact same thing. We call it the "Iron Curtain Strategy".

Then when you control the middle you move all robots in your end zone and score!! I think that's legal?? Is it?

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I see the ability to move between field sections as a powerful advantage.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Robots can specialize in each zone.
In the near zone, robots can push the ball into the goals AND steal balls from opponent.
In the middle zone, robots can recover returned balls and feed them to robot in the near zone.
In the far zone, robots can recover returned balls that roll thru the tunnel AND block goals by the opponent in that zone.

The only reason I can think of for the robot in the near zone to change zones is to elevate itself; it can't use the tower that is closest to it.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I agree completely, except im out numbered 20 to 1 at our design meetings. Im trying to convince my team that crossing the border should only be used as a last resort in extreme situations. I feel its just to dangerous and will take far to long for the little assistance it might provide.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

INVALUABLE TOPIC! Thank you guys for your ideas!

Speaking of balls as currently available balls in the field, I agree entirly that the center is an important zone after the moment when the first 6 "safe balls" (the 6 balls that in the beginning of the match that are set up by the alliance's decision, and could be said to be "controlled" by their own alliance. These balls have a high probability of getting scored for sure at the first seconds of the match, tele and auto). The fight over the control of the balls will exist. Middle bot will always want to keep a fresh supply of available balls for scoring in the near zone for the Near bot. But if a "battle of control" occurs between the two Middle bots for trying to send the returned balls to thier own alliance's Near bot, Both the Defending (Far) bot and Scroing (Near) bot will be idle for a while, if they maintain thier role the whole time. These robots should have the ability to manuver across the ramps (that includes the option of going through the tunnel), in order to assist the bots in the battle.

This could say something about Middle bots. They will be moving most of thier time only inside thier own zone. So if you would like to have the best Middle bot in your alliance, I personally would chose that bot that could push other robots effectivly, manuver extermly quick and be able to pass balls to the Near/Far zones fast and effectivly.

Battles for control, if are given assistance from the other zone bots, will eventually cieze after a couple of seconds after the arrival of the assisting bots, for the moment a bot posses a ball, or has been able to pass a ball or two to the desired zone, the Scorer bot should return to score.


Wow, this is getting much more specific....:ahh:

But I think FIRST finally did it. We finally have a game where teamwork and coordination between the teams in the alliance is PARAMOUNT for any kind of victory in the game. I like that.... :D

Re: Staying in Zones
 

This game is expected to be played out very similar to a soccer match. Each robot has a unique role. If you are at far end zone, you HAVE TO play at least some sort of defense and passing the ball to the midfielder.
Let me put it this way, how would you not be tempted to block the opponent from scoring when you are right beside their goal post?!

A defensive robot should be able to catch the opponent's soccer ball, and output it to the midfielder.

There are two goal posts, if you are the only one playing defense on your team, that means only ONE goal post will be covered, and leading another goal post open to be scored.

A very effective defense strategy is building a robot that is efficient at controlling the movement of the ball and outputting/passing it. Reason being is that the defensive robot should go to midfield where the soccer balls are dropped. If your robot collects the balls faster and passes them to teammates to score faster than the opponents do, where would the opponent bots get the soccer balls to score?!

The best way to defend is to take away the opponent's scoring balls!

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I think that many of you guys that are talking about how it's important to support less effective/broken robots and the like are forgetting that the alliance gets to choose where the robots start. The fact that the alliance gets to plan ahead removes a lot of those problems, at least in my opinion

Obviously, there will be some situations in which moving to another zone is advantageous. However, does this REALLY outweigh the added complexity of designing a really short robot or a robot which can successfully navigate over the bumps? Not doing this allows you to REALLY focus on your robot's strengths, such as a very amazing kicker.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Has anyone considered the importance of the end of the game? To even attempt to get points for suspending and lifting robots. The bot placed in the far side would have to be able to travel over the bumps.

Or is the ablilty to climb up not considered as important this year? It seems to me that the end game will be important to deciding the winning alliance. Maybe I am underestimating the ability of the offensive robots to score.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

My take is that no matter where you are at the start, or where you plan to stay, you should have the ability to change zones due to the well-known fact that plans change suddenly when you have opponents. How you change zones is up to you.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I'm not certain why you would want to play defense in this game at all (at least in qualifiers). My thought was move the middle robot to the front zone (two scorers) and the far robot to the middle zone (ball handler), and then all three are in position to score huge points and hang. This will produce the highest match scores and seeding scores. In my opinion its dangerous (potential penalty) and a waste of time to try and get the balls from the far field to the near field...

If another alliance does this and tries to score, you can only have 1 defender for two scorers with two goals... In hearing what one of the GDC guys had to say, I think this is what the expect to happen... and is ultimately the "smart move" for seeding points.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I think that the fight will be in the middle. It's up to you to "Breakaway" and score.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

In your particular scenario, the defensive robot would have to go to the midfield where soccer balls are being dropped after being scored from both teams. The robot would have to stay in that position right after where the balls are dropped, and then try to take away as many soccer balls before the opponent can get it as possible to minimize the chance of the opponent bots getting the soccer balls.

How would the opponents score if they are unable to get a soccer ball? My point is to take away their source of soccer ball.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Yes, that is a great strategy and will probably win several (if not many) regionals.

But what about qualifications? If you're the only bot on your alliance with ball handling skills you will be needed in all three zones.

You may even need to move balls from the middle to your side and then score them yourself. A slow painful strategy... but it may be your only option.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Same situation and I agree completely. Best to stay in one zone except for maybe one robot to move between it's alliances zone and midfield. But the other two shouldn't need to be worrying as much about it.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Granted, that quals may be a little tough. But this is always the case. It doesn't make sense for most teams to decide they need to do EVERYTHING on the field because they might get some bad seeding matchups. Teams should consider the importance of doing everything vs the likelihood they'll be able to do everything.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

The ideal robot here would be one that can do one task really well (shooting, blocking, passing, etc.) but also be able to have flexibility. But the specialty part is important. However, I can foresee robots changing zones only when they need to help an ally flip over. If aliances do their jobs right, there won't be a need to change zones to get balls.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

For what it's worth, depending on how wrong I am on strategy... if it were up to me, I would personally not pick more than one partner completely incapable of moving between zones, and only one in an exceptional case. Guess good thing it's not. :P

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Where is the most points? Three robots spending 15-20 seconds hanging off each other and the rack or spend the time socring more balls from the zones they are in.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

If you can score 2/3rds of the balls in the entire game in 20 seconds, be my guest. :)

Re: Staying in Zones
 

Just to point out to those using the soccer analogy... Even in soccer, players go where the ball is. When the ball is at the far side of the field, the defenders push up to midfield, the midfield push up to attack, etc. If you're defending and realize there are no balls in your zone... push up! If you can get more balls into your offensive zone, while at the same time denying those balls to your opponents, it's a win-win.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

There plenty of arguments for and against crossing zones. It's somewhat situation dependent. If having two robots in your alliance go to the middle allows you to take control the flow of balls (and from there, IMHO, the flow of the game), then it could be worth removing your defensive robot out.

The middle is really your first line of offense and of defense once the match gets going. Stopping a ball from going to your opponent is defensive, while putting it in your zone is offensive.

Honestly, I don't think we'll really know the answer until at least near the end of week one regionals. I'm guessing maybe even farther than that because at that point some robot capabilities (and driver skill) are not fully developed.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I would like to say that in Atlanta (if that is your goal as it is for most robots) i believe that this goes over well until the finale in which i believe most bots will be able to hang for the bonus 2 and 3 points. this being said at the oklahoma regional I can see being able to switch as a good strategy as we will be hosting a multitude of new teams that may not be able to play in certin zones due to a lack of prior FIRST knowlege. With this in mind Team 1742 plans to make a bot that can travel between zones and is effective in all three.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I will share with you all one of the "Golden Rules" I got from one of the great FIRST strategists...

I'll leave it at that...

Re: Staying in Zones
 

I would caution everybody reading this that the strategy that wins in Week 1 regionals most likely will not be sufficient come Week 4 or 5, and certainly not at the Championships.

Re: Staying in Zones
 

My prediction...

Atlanta.... most goals will be scored FROM the midfield.
the robot in the scoring zone will be more of a blocker....giving the midfield robots opportunities to score...

I do think that we will see many matches with 4 robots in the midfield.

Defensive robots defending goals will have to be exceptionally careful going over the ramps.... if they spill over on the way up.and fall back into their zone... there will be NO robot in that goal zone unless another robot can effect a save from the ramp. And no robot will be able to take their place as long as they are in contact with the carpet in that zone.

If you are designing a "goal tender" bot... one of its key performance parameters will have to be the ability to self-right... or an infallible method of going over the ramp... OR the ability to go under the tower... or a combination of these....

good luck!!

I am paraphrasing Pele.... "Whoever controls the ball controls the game."
You don't have to score goals to win... you have to control the balls...

In Atlanta it will be about controlling the balls...and scoring from the midfield.


Just my prediction... it will be fun