Changing bumper colors
 

<R07>:
But,And,(all emphasis mine)

Sometimes during the eliminations, alliances switch from being red to blue or vice versa, and have to play back-to-back. You'd better be able to change your bumper colors in 4 minutes or less.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

I recommed ball lock spring pins. Zero to bumper in 15 seconds.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#pins/=5bx5nm

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Are you fishing for questions? Such as, what if we build two sets of bumpers, one red - one blue? Would they have to be weighed in together, and weigh less than 20 pounds combined?

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

In the rules <R07> they clearly say you can have 2 sets of bumpers at 20 lbs each. IMO take advantage of the rule and make 2 sets and do a quick change.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

No. He's saying that bumper color will need to be changeable within 4 minutes because of the field reset rules.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

These new bumper changing things are going to be pretty neat.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

The kickoff video showed the use of a removable bumper cover - see it at 5:36 in this video.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Yes, but <G46> says, "a. Bumper covers must not detach, even unintentionally, from the ROBOT. Violation: PENALTY." That cover in kickoff didn't look like it was robustly attached.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Elimination rounds are often played back-to-back but they are usually within the same bracket level and alliances never switch colors within the same bracket. The only time this would be an issue is if you were the last group to finish a given bracket level and were in the first group of the next. From my experience, they draw the time out between elimination bracket levels a bit since at least one alliance in the next level would have had at least one round of rest and the other may or may not have.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

This might end up playing a role in driver and/or pit crew selection. Kind of like battery management. I wonder how strongly they're going to be enforcing this rule, seeing as there are often field issues and whatnot anyway

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Has your team used this or is it just an idea? If used, how many on, let's say, the long side? How well did it hold up during the season?

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

We used 6 (six) to hold on all bumpers last year. One at each corner and one on the inside of each short section across the font. Also our bumpers were essentialy continuous fabric around the perimeter to help.

I think no more than 2 a side are necessary and if you use the same one in the corner to hold 2 sides as we did last year 4 total is all you need this year.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

We've used these for a few years now. We tend to use three on each long side.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

I think it is going to be a pain in the butt...
I dont like the fact that we have to change such a large component of our robot to indicate our team color. I kind of wish that they would do something else for that purpose.

In the past, our teams bumpers have been pretty much permanant...The only times we ever had to take them off was to weigh the robot, and to get it to fit into the crate for shipping...

Now we have to change them almost every match? that just seems a bit rediculous...

I COMPLETELY do not trust bumper covers. They seem too easy to remove, no matter HOW you design them...I dont think that capability is worth the chance of a penalty

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

does anyone know which blue is required for the bumpers?
I called Seattle Fabrics and they have 2 types: Royal and Navy Blue.
Im thinking it doesnt matter, but just wanted to make sure.

When we asked, teams that called earlier didnt know and they themselves have not been told by FIRST if it had to be a specific one.
Dont want to base it from the video and the video alone.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

<R07>:(emphasis mine)

I'd guess the Royal.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

We ordered the royal blue by chance, however, a bunch of teams called and ordered Navy.
If Seattle Fabrics is the official vendor for the bumper fabric as they have been the last several years, FIRST should let them know, to save time and hastles for other teams.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

If Seattle Fabrics is the official vendor for the bumper fabric, FIRST should let us know....

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Problem is that FIRST did and it is vague enough that teams didnt know which one to buy.
Anyhow, Phillip from Seattle Fabrics called back and confirmed that teams need to order the Royal Blue one.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

In my opinion creating different color slips to go over the bumpers (as mentioned in the manual) seem easier than creating two separate sets. This enables you to do a fast change, plus you don't have to go through the hassle of creating and testing both sets.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

So navy blue? Correct?
And what are the pros. and cons. of the cover slips vs. individual bumpers for the different colors...

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

It does seem easier, but do you really want to get penalized because your bumper covers come off? I believe our team will just go with the two sets of bumpers just to be safe and make sure that the bolts are easy to access and we have four people with four wrenches ready to attack those buggers.:p

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Haha that's true Brendan. I guess it's better safe than sorry:)

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Royal Blue...see Glenn's quote:

Anyhow, Phillip from Seattle Fabrics called back and confirmed that teams need to order the Royal Blue one.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

would using zippers be legal as a means of attaching bumper covers? Looking at the rules I can't tell if they would fall under the "hard" or "soft" section of the bumpers themselves and am therefore unsure as to a legal location.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

In 2007 and 2008, we did alternating bumper colors to show which alliance we were on. It was fun, and the announcers had a great amount of fun with it. If they are designed right, it isn't that hard to change them, especially if you have one person per bumper. During Quals, there is usually enough time between matches to make the change.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

We used the same thing on 1189 and 3096's bots last year. In my opinion using any other method is a waste of time. Between the two bots the system had ~88 matches of use and during that time no pin ever was dislodged past the ball lock. Let's face it... stuff doesn't fall up. Of course in Breakaway up could vary from moment to moment, but I'm planning to use these pins again anyway.

The specific part number was McMaster-Carr (p/n 98320A140)

They should also mate with AndyMark's bumper brackets AM-0317

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

I've come to the conclusion that no one will ever be satisfied with the solution FIRST has to this problem. The spinning lights were too big, the flashing lights were too small, the flags got in the way, and the bumpers are too much to change. I think this is one of the better options, particularly since ball lock pins are legal fasteners.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

It sounds like a great idea, they would be more than strong enough. I believe the zipper would fall under the hard part of the bumper though. Assuming you designed the bumpers right, this would be legal.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Industrial strength velcro should work pretty well for bumper covers. We have used it for side panels of fabric on our robot and it takes some pulling to get it off. Then you could have have one set of bumpers and fabric covers. We often use fabric on our robots. We use the Cordura nylon in areas that we want to deflect sharp arms from other robots or mechanisms that unfold to guide a ball. There is velcro that you sew on and stuff that has an industrial adhesive. Sew the velcro to the cloth and use the adhesive type for sticking it to metal. Go back and rivet the stick on stuff if you want added security. Use velcro as wide as you can for more strength. It won't go anywhere.

We don't have a trailer or large storage area so I would rather do anything NOT to have a duplicate set of bumpers kicking around the pit or workroom. They are difficult to store and take up a lot of space.

Now what would be cool is to get that programmable cloth and program in the color. Anyone have a few thousand extra just for bumpers?


Ann

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

I did work briefly for a company that made thermochromic fabric that was electrically actuated. Too bad it uses alot of power, as that would be pretty cool looking.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

To keep everyone aware of changes in the rules this year...

<R15> Teams shall display their team number on the BUMPERS in four
locations at approximately 90-degree intervals around the perimeter of the ROBOT. The numerals must be at least 4 inches high, at least in ¾-inch stroke width and in a contrasting color from its background. Team Numbers must be clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 feet, so that judges, referees, and announcers can easily identify competing ROBOTS.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Alliance color stays the same througout elimination rounds, and qualification rounds are usually never back-to-back for a given robot. There should be ample time to change color with whatever method.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

False. An upset can often result in switching colors due to the way the colors are determined.

See here for a quick example. The 171-525-2175 alliance starts on Blue Alliance in the quarters, then moves to Red Alliance in the semis after upsetting the #1 alliance.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

In elimintions, the colors will remain the same only if:

QF
-- 1 beats 8
-- 5 beats 4
-- 2 beats 7
-- 6 beats 3
SF
-- 1 beats 5
-- 6 beats 2

In any other case, at least one alliance will be changing bumper colors

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

How do teams plan to put the team numbers on the bumpers? What are the different possibilities?

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

There are a few ways of doing this. The most popular is paint as you can touch it up after the many bumps and scratches it will encounter during matches. Another is sewing on fabric numbers, but those are harder to attach and fix after falling off.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Our team has, for some reason, been unable to figure out an elegant solution to mounting our bumpers the last few years. I really like this solution, BUT I am unsure how it is implemented (along with the AM brackets) to avoid the 1" hard parts rule. Our understanding is that with the 3/4" plywood, you only have 1/4" left for bolts/brackets etc. which appears to us to eliminate fastening systems other than what is very similar to what is shown in the manual.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

The 1" is measured outward from the frame perimeter. Bumper fasteners can extend into the robot without being subject to that measurement.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Excellent, thanks Alan. R07.N confirms your point.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

We use a local embroidery/screen print business. They heat press the numbers onto the fabric. We have not had any trouble with them staying on. It looks real good too:)

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Thanks. Is this the same process they use to put numbers and letters on sports uniforms or is it a more expensive method?

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

I have seen numbers painted, screen printed, made out of contrasting fabric, and embroidered depending on the team's sponsor or parent base. In the past, numbers were not required on the bumpers, this is a new rule for 2010.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Ed,

Gail get's ours done at Fast Signs every year and they always turn out great and always stand up to lots of abuse. We bring in the fabric with the outside bumper area marked in chalk and they make a sign right on the material.

Give Gail a call for details.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Andy Mark sell skirts that you can buy. They velcroe on to youre bumpers. They carry these in red and blue. But they cost 45.00 each

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Just checked with AndyMark and they do not offer a blue set...only red. Since our bumpers are already red, I called and asked if they would be offering blue. I was told not at this time, but if enough people request them, they will get some made.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

After looking at Andymark skirt i'm of the opinion that just sticking velcro onto exposed bumper might not be acceptable.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Anyone else have a problem with this rule? I see how FIRST wants to standardize things, but a lot of teams have made a lot of LARGE and very nicely done numbers on other places than the bumpers. I don't see the reason for requiring they be in this location. I have a feeling a lot of teams will show up at the regional without numbers, and then Sharpie or tape them on their bumpers, and it will degrade the appearance of the robots.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Requiring the team numbers on the bumpers does not preclude teams from continuing to include numbers in other places on their robot.

I don't understand how teams making numbers with sharpies or tape on their bumpers is any different from taping a sheet of paper on their robot or using Sharpie to right it somewhere else. Teams that don't know to put the numbers on their bumpers aren't reading the manual and likely wouldn't have had numbers anyway.

A standard way to indicate both alliance and team number seems like a great idea to me. Of course we won't really know whether it is better or worse until we see all of the finished robots.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Sandy,
That is why I am trying to get the word out now. Help me get the word out, because we all know that questions about the bumpers will come up in about three weeks.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Maybe every regional needs a box of white paint markers...for sale to teams who didn't comply during the build season.

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Excellent idea...They could be those extra wide paint markers that are kind of like a SUPER SIZED SHARPIE....Our team will invest in some so that other teams can use them at the regional...

We sew our numbers on... we have always put our numbers on the bumpers... but this would be better for use at the event... we were thinking about having a set of number stencils and white spray paint but I bet these would work better.

We have brought along bumper making materials for the past 2 years...
wood, t-nuts, bolts, extra material... pool noodles...staplers..
We also seem to find someone who needs it...
We like to help...

Great idea!!!

Re: Changing bumper colors
 

Bob,
It is teams like yours that Lead Inspectors should know about. Please let the LRI know when you get to an event that you have material to help.