ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Someone sanity check me on this. I just did a double take on closely reading the ELEVATED definition:It's missing the "and only in contact with the TOWER" or "only supported by the TOWER" that I've been conditioned to expect. By my reading, a robot sitting on top of another robot, 21" off the ground, and touching the TOWER = ELEVATED. I can't see anything that argues against this. I'm Q&A-ing it, but it seems legal to me at the moment. Comments?

NB: So a triple-stack of robots near a tower could = 5 points?

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

I'll add to what you said and say that the robot on top reaches out to touch the tower (otherwise it's not elevated).

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Followup that I also Q&A-ed. SUSPENDED says only touching an ELEVATED/SUSPENDED ROBOT. I'm now curious if an otherwise SUSPENDED robot is downgraded if it touches the TOWER. Sure makes things harder, doesn't it?

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

How it is currently stated, that is the only interpretation that I can see. That extra point (in comparison to hanging from the tower) is for hanging off of another robot, so they have to make it so you can't just hang off the tower and touch another robot.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

I believe you would only get 2 points for that strategy since the middle robot is touching the bottom robot, and therefor not SUSPENDED by the top robot. This means the bottom and middle robots would not receive any bonus points, but the top robot would receive 2. Does that make sense.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Oh-o. But you're reading your standard, everyday, common sense definition of SUSPENDED into things. This is Breakaway we're talking about. If you have a stack of 3 vertical robots, the middle one is 21" up and touching the tower, and the top one is only touching the middle one... Then I think the middle one is ELEVATED, and the top one is SUSPENDED, as it's only touching the ELEVATED robot below it. (Yes, I just said a robot was suspended by another robot below it. I didn't write the rules.)

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

All I know is that I would not want the risk of being the 'top bot' in a 3-robot stack. That's a fantastic catch nonetheless Kevin; I wonder if that interpretation is within their intent and thus will hold up without change.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Safe to say don't set your robot up for this, but if you find out that you can all the way bro

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

I have been debating this for some time (last few days) and the video (although I am told NOT to trust which is SUPPOSED to give an understanding of the game) does show it not once, but twice that being on the platform is considered elevated. If it is, then a triple stack would be worth 8 points, considering a plane is a flat surface that has generally no thickness, but if is not, then it is worth only 5 points as you said.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

The triple stack mentioned is near the tower, not on the platform. To clarify (how I read it), you have a robot that drives up next to the platform that has for example a flat surface on it and it deploys a ramp. A robot gets on top of it (touches the tower), and somehow another robot puts itself on top of that one (and is not touching the tower). This would be one elevated, one suspended, for 5 points.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

That was my thinking, yes. Slightly more practical implementation probably has the top bot mount the middle bot and then the middle bot mount the base bot. This only brings it down to about 10.5 on the 11 point scale of complete insanity, of course. I'm not proposing that this makes much sense, but it IS an interesting insight into the rules. Well, that and the somewhat warped workings of my brain.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Another interesting way to think about suspended is this:

Let's say robot 1 is elevated such that the bottom of the robot is at 24" by doing a pull-up on one of the horizontal bars on the tower. It now "sticks out its tongue (made of LEXAN, of course) and lays on the platform. If it stays within the 85 inches and another robot drives on the platform and is only on the LEXAN, then that robot is SUSPENDED and worth 3 points. The totla for that maneuver is 5 points.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Were you listening in on our design meetings?

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

On the other hand, if one of your wires hangs down under the platform, you get no points. Just sayin'

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

The scary thing is, I've read all of the rules and what you guys are suggesting *is* legal (so far). Keep up the good work, and I love the Lexan idea, I'm bringing it up in our meeting tomorrow.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

In a similar manner if you can hang using a small portion of the horizontal bar and put some type of thin shell out covering the rest of the bar, an alliance partner may be able to lift themselves up using that shell covered bar. The tower would bear all the load, but they would still get points for being SUSPENDED.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

We thought ours was good but this is a bit more clever.:D

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Any rules against hanging, and then draping the tower with a curtain? I specifically remember in 04, teams would put lexan shields over the bar you had to hang from so that other teams WOULD be touching their robot, and thus NOT be considered hanging! with this game, you could do the reverse in order TO get the other two alliance partners to be Suspended rather than Elevated!

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

There is nothing in the rules against this and is basically what I was suggesting above taken beyond just the bar you are hanging from.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Please at least zip tie your wires... that would be a horrible reason to lose 2/3 points:eek: :eek:

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

The official definition--SUSPENDED: A ROBOT only in contact with an ELEVATED ROBOT and/or a SUSPENDED ROBOT shall be considered SUSPENDED.

My interpretation- While I like your thinking out side the box, my gut tells me there will be a ruling forthcoming from the GDC that this manuver will be illegal. The intent of the rule is to have the 2nd robot hanging from the robot that is hanging from the tower.

My .02.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Dana,

This doesn't happen often, but I totally disagree with you on your interpretation. Nowhere do they reference the word "hanging" when they talk about SUSPENDED. At first, I thought what you thought, but now I am convinced the scenario I posted earlier will remain perfectly legal.

Think of it this way: what if I had ramps on my robot so you could drive up my robot. Then I had some mechanism that lifted both of us up and I was above the platform. Your robot is definitely not hanging from mine as it is sitting on my robot, but you are certainly SUSPENDED based on the definition in the rules.

What am I missing?

Paul

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

I have to agree, the design team and I are going crazy over this. Nowhere does it say hang.

"ELEVATED: A ROBOT that is completely above the plane of the PLATFORM and in contact with the TOWER shall be considered ELEVATED."

fine i accept this. now what's considered a PART of the tower?

"A TOWER is located in the center of each BUMP. Each TOWER is composed of a base and a pipe
superstructure. The PLATFORM is the horizontal surface of the base, and provides a solid surface
to support ROBOTS during the game"

ok, fine.....so if i drive on the PLATFORM i am awarded 2pts..and i am considered ELEVATED.

"SUSPENDED: A ROBOT only in contact with an ELEVATED ROBOT and/or a SUSPENDED
ROBOT shall be considered SUSPENDED."

so that robot cannot be in contact with anything else but an ELEVATED robot. but what if they climb on me like in 2007, and I am ELEVATED, and I AM in CONTACT with the TOWER......

If i am right. someone on my team is going to bake me cupcakes for Mentors Day...
CD, i need cupcakes....

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Curse you Copioli! I thought of that right after my last post and was hoping it'd go unnoticed. As for your second post... Stop stealing my team's design ideas. :) Sadly, I don't think we'll be able to fit ramps AND an effective red (or blue) carpet into the 84" cylinder, so we'll likely leave this to some other team to try. Still, it seems like a reasonable gamble, though the team on the platform would have to be pretty careful to only touch your red carpet.

Seconding your reply to Dana, I obviously agree with my interpretation of the rules as written. As written the rules say nothing at all about hanging, support, or any of the other terminology the GDC has used in past games where hanging was involved. There's been 4 games I can recall where you got points for hanging/being above something. I'm thinking that if the GDC intended for ELEVATED to mean fully supported by the tower and above the platform, they could have drawn on prior rules to write it up that way. Similar on SUSPENDED.

I'm perfectly willing for the GDC to prove me wrong here, but doing so is going to involve a massive redefinition of ELEVATED and SUSPENDED. If the only motivation for doing so is to prohibit a moderately clever strategy that's still rather technically challenging*, then I'll be somewhat miffed with the GDC. Which has certainly happened before, but I remain ever hopeful.

*If you don't believe me, wait 6 weeks then tell me 57's system is simpler than a hook and a hanging bar.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

That would satisfy the definition of SUSPENDED.

I hope Paul's second example doesn't remain hypothetical this year.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Are you sure about that, Chris?

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Well, the robot climbed onto an ELEVATED robot (ELEVATED because it is in contact with the tower and above the plane), and it is not touching anything else. That's SUSPENDED to me. Unless I misread, but I checked again and I don't think I did.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

I don't believe the GDC will change the wording to say we MUST hang from the top bar to be considered elevated or suspended. As worded, the design challenges are already many and high in difficulty. I predict many robots will be able to ELEVATE themselves, yet very few will be able to become SUSPENDED unless a team specializes in suspending other teams.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

All,

We usually bash the GDC when they vaguely word a rule so I will give them credit where credit is due. They really were very clear in the definitions of ELEVATED and SUSPENDED. Direct contact with tower or platform and above the platform = ELEVATED. Only in contact with an ELEVATED or SUSPENDED robot and [EDIT: NOT above the platform] = SUSPENDED. This is so obviously clear to me.

EDIT: My typing got ahead of me. The SUSPENDED robot does not have to be above the platform. I knew this, but just was on a roll ... sorry for the confusion.

Now for a word of caution about making ramps for others to climb on:

In 2007, it was clear the every team that wanted to play that game should have been able to climb a robot's ramps. However, A LOT of teams that thought they could climb, could not climb at all.

This year, the points aren't as high and the focus is not really on robot ramps. I expect even the best ramp robots this year will have very few teams able to drive on them. My team seriously considered being a ramp, but dismissed it due to the fact that we thought very few robots could climb on our back. My advice: worry about getting yourself elevated.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

No, I misread the post you were responding to. My bad.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Paul,
I agree with your analysis of the definitions but I am wondering if you really need to be above the platform to be a SUSPENDED robot. When I look at the definition of SUSPENDED it does not refer to a height off the field surface. It just says that you are ONLY touching a ELEVATED robot. Maybe there is a opportunity there if the SUSPENDED robot doesn't need to break the plan of the top of the platform.

Some things I have been thinking about:
- If you are a previously SUSPENDED robot but then touch the tower by accident I don't think you would still be SUSPENDED based on the definition.
- If in the process grabbing onto a ELEVATED robot you move them so that they are not above the plane of the PLATFORM, they would no longer be ELEVATED and you are no longer SUSPENDED from a ELEVATED robot.

What are peoples thoughts on this? My first thought is you may want to be careful as a potential SUSPENDED robot because you could negate the ELEVATED robot if the above proves out to be true.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

I agree, the endgame rules are very clear this year as long as you don't over think them or try to infer meaning. Just go with exactly what the rules say. Nothing more, nothing less.

So I must ask why you think a SUSPENDED robot must be above the platform? The rule for SUSPENDED only deals with contact, not position.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Mike, Paul and all others:

I am going to go against the grain here...call me a rebel.

The GDC has said in the past not to "lawyer" the rules, but to look for the intent. My opinon remains that the GDC's intent is to have robots using some kind of hook/latch/bent piece of metal mechanism to enable the robot to elevate itself to a point above the "normal" playing surface. (normal playing surface= the flat carpet from which the bumps and towers protrude) Whether that hook is on the horizontal bar at the top of the tower, clamped onto the vertical post of a tower or attached directly to another robot and is above the level of the platform or above the "normal" carpet in the case of attached to another robot.

If the GDC rules in the FIRST Q & A that rolling out a lexan tongue is legal, I will bring cupcakes to Atlanta. :D

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Preface: I know the game animations have errors from time to time

watch when the one red robot hangs from another...it does NOT break the plane of the platform. Combine that with the lack of rules stating a suspended robot needs to be above a certain height. The result is to be suspended you can only touch another robot and that's it.

I agree with Paul, the rules are clear. I do not see the argument to the otherside.

Brando

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

All,

See my edit in my above post. The SUSPENDED robot does not have to be above the platform. I knew this, but my typing got ahead of my brain. Sorry for the confusion.

Paul

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Alright, I've been holding back long enough, but I have one.

Your robot gets on top of and sits on the platform. It is now ELEVATED.

Your robot throws down a large piece of carpet/fabric that is still attached to your robot and remains inside the 84" cylinder onto the ground from the top of the platform where it is ELEVATED

Brandon's bot drives over on top of my carpet/fabric. It is now SUSPENDED.

5 points?

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Your carpet is now below the plane of the platform so you are no longer ELEVATED.

0 points.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Right.

*crawls back into programming cave*

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

If our robot seizes a willing alliance robot tightly and THEN elevates by whatever method it can, it is my supposition that our alliance will get 5 points for the effort. This avoids the necessity for collaboration on attachment strategy with random other teams (as will happen in Q-round). In designing our seizing mechanism we need only consider the commonality of other robots' designs. Something like the little bars to wheel hoists on the modern-day tow trucks. Those guys don't ever know what kind of bumper or fenders or frame is going to be on a car they're called to tow, but they do know that it has wheels on the ground that are no larger than x inches and not likely to be further apart than y inches. Hence the forking interface to their ultimate hydraulic lift. Anything else besides wheels on this year's robots that is so predictable?

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Paul is wise. Listen to Paul (this from the guy that Paul yells at every year at IRI for the stupid rules :) ).

I, for one, am looking forward to cupcakes in Atlanta. :)

-dave



.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

From what I have learned is that you are considered elevated when you are only touching the bar thats supposed to be grabbed on. You are considered suspended if you are not touching the tower and are hanging off of another robot you are considered suspended. So in theory having a stack is not applicable. Sorry if this hurts your plan but this is what I have heard. If I'm wrong then tell me so that I know about this. Also my friend is bugging the crap out of me about my grammar. Thanks for reading and tell my friend to stop bugging me. BYE!
!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~ !~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~ !~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~ !~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~ !~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~ !~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~ !~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!(All done now)

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Well, that sounds about right to me. Even if you were to stack on other robots, I think it would be incredibly difficult to accomplish.

And, no, Brian, I will not stop bugging you about your grammar. Make it better, and I'll consider it! XP

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

When you're done checking your grammar, and done posting nonsense symbols, you might want to go back into section 7.2 of the manual and check the definitions of ELEVATED and SUSPENDED.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Ok if you don't agree with me. Explain how you would stack 3 robots on top of each other?

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

They might correct this in a rule update, but the GDC has a habit of leaving some rules open to ambiguity to let teams be creative.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

I don't know how you would do this. But if it was done, and if the bottom one was ELEVATED, the other two would count as SUSPENDED by definition.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

This is a really cool idea and I would really like to see this.

i haven't read any rules that would stop this from being legal or true, so good luck to anyone who tries this!

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

And if the bottom one was built with its top higher than the platform and it was sitting on the floor, and the middle one touched the tower but the top one didn't, then the middle one gets 2 points and the top one gets 3. The bottom one gets 0, as they aren't above the plane.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

Wow! This all sounds like some circus act- you know the one where acrobats make the upside-down pyramid on one person?

Anyway, I think a ramp-bot, if designed right, would work great. For those who worry that no one would be able to climb on you, keep in mind that most robots (I assume) are built to be able to climb up the 45 degree angle of the bumps. The ramp would just go slightly higher. Unless you have a ridiculously steep angle, I think it would work.

Then again, this is theory, created from the wonderful if slightly twisted logic in my head;)

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

I wa going to post something that would completely contradict what you are saying, but when I opened the rules to get the exact wording of the definition of Elevated I found "A ROBOT that is completely above the plane of the PLATFORM and in contact with the TOWER shall be considered ELEVATED."

So I don't see anything wrong with that proposition now. By definition, the ELEVATED robot only needs to contact the tower and be above the plane of the PLATFORM.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

You would still have to consider the extra 120 pounds of weight that is now being added to your robot. If your lifting mechanism can't lift more than 240 lbs, your ramp bot or even the possibility of a SUSPENDED robot are very low.

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

actually 120lb robot + 20lb bumpers + 10lb battery = 150lb robot each

so the number is 150 for one 300 for two 450 for all three robots

Re: ELEVATED but not hanging?
 

sadly that is a heavy weight and if it way to much your robot could be crushed and well thats sadly a problem