Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLH-XqNyQ-0

We would love any feedback. We want all pros and cons of both systems. Thanks

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Need to do some rough calculations of how long it takes to refill the air tank for the pneumatic one, and also how long it would take a motor to pull back the spring (if you use that technique) for the spring version.

Auto is only 15 seconds...you're gonna kick 3 balls upfield in that time, after you find each one...right? :)

Thanks for posting the link to the video Fredi

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Thats the plan!

When are you guys going to have any vids up?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Awesome video!

I always try and get my team to prototype more before we decide what we want to do, but it doesn't always happen... I'll make sure we watch this video at our meeting tonight. Hopefully they'll finally realize how important prototyping is.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Thank you for posting this.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Thanks for posting this. I'll be sure my team sees this. Could be the most influential video of 2010 if you keep this up :)

Do the prototypes follow the 2 inch extension rule as built?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

yes

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

2 inch extension rule?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Perhaps the bumper perimeter rule?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Exactly. I didn't know if there was a separate rule.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

I think Chris means the no extension outside the bumper zone rule, but bumpers are thicker than 2" so I am unsure.

Chris, could you elaborate or post the rule that applies please? I don't remember reading a "2 inch" rule in the manual.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

You can extend outside the frame perimeter below the bumper zone up to the bumper perimeter for up to 2 seconds then you must come back in the frame perimeter for 2 seconds before extending out again.

<G30> ROBOT Volume – During a MATCH, no part of the ROBOT shall extend outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, except as follows:
a. BALL Interaction Volume – Solely for the purposes of interacting with a BALL, MECHANISMS that are below the BUMPER ZONE may extend up to the BUMPER PERIMETER, for a period not exceeding two seconds. After returning inside the FRAMER PERIMETER, such MECHANISMS are not permitted to re-extend beyond the FRAME PERIMETER for at least two seconds.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Sorry guys, I mixed up my inches and seconds.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

My one say on design number one is that it looks like you had a hard time with one bump and that it looked like some of the balls didn't go over. But design two looks like if adjusted correctly, would be able to score from any of the zones.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

See this is exactly what I am talking about. The bumpers are 3.25 inches not 2. It references 2 seconds not 2 inches.

We need to be very careful when we post things that a rookie or casual poster might see and think is a real rule.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

As a point of reference, can you describe how far you were from the bump and from the goal while testing these?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

thanks for sharing!

definitely more effective than I anticipated a simple kicker could be

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Awesome Fredi, thanks! I'm tending to like the surgical tubing. Simple, no significant weight budget costs, no need to store air, etc. I also think there's a simple way to release and reload that, but I'd need to prototype to be sure. We'll provide and feedback info we find out here. Our team doesn't formally eet again until Saturday, but we may prototype with a few folks before then.

Rock on...

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

We are going with 3 inches outside the frame perimeter. Pool noodle is 2.5 inches play wood is .5 inches so three inches. It moves in both examples 6 inches three in three out.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

we had the back of our robot dimensions against what would have been a bump. Wide side facing the goal. Farthest from gal you could be in the midfield.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

So for both devices, do they naturally settle back within the frame perimeter within two seconds or are you planning on being able to draw them back that quickly (more an issue with the surgical device)?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

We have used gate latches in the past....

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Fredi, great video, thanks for posting.

We haven't done any prototyping yet, so I'm glad to see that a pneumatic system has the oomph to clear at least one bump. Were the locations the same for the arm's pivot and the point on the ball where it was struck? It looked like they were pretty close, at least. Did you try to equalize the striking force? I noticed you got a lot more air with the tubing. It looks like you're striking the ball quite a bit harder, or was that not having a holder-downer like with the pneumatic? The extra arc will be helpful if you also want to get the ball over a robot in your zone, but it'll make it more difficult for a long score.

The design tradeoffs (I think Rich alluded to these) are ease of reloading and firing with the pneumatic and greater force with the tubing. I can't speculate which is easier to build or more robust.

- Steve

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

The plywood is 3/4" thick per <R07> and Figure 8-1.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

But you know to err on the conservative side

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Always!

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

have not decided yet...

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

This is exactly what we were trying to do :) The difference is that your design works! Thanks for posting the video!

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

From a soccer player's stand point, your first one seems to be more "trustworty". When I go to punt a soccer ball, I am not using a huge "surface area", but I am still able to knock the ball with power, and it is certainly more accurate. Just a thought...

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Thanks for posting this. (Some days I love the WORLD wide web)

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

There was a robot that had a rapid fire and reload mechanism for shooting balls. It must have been for Aim High. It used a cam arrangement to pull the latex tubing back into tension. Anyone remember it?

It seems something like that, with a pause before firing because we aren't rapid loading this year, would pull the kicker back into the FRAME PERIMETER within the 2 second limit.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

I believe both 1523 and 45 Mk. 1 operated this way.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Could you be referring to 1625's 2008 robot?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

That wasn't what I was thinking of, but something like that might work even better.

The robot I was thinking of had a rotating boot, and there was some kind of a cam and latex tube arrangement to give extra ooomph to the downward swing. But the more I think of it, the less suitable I think it might be. This year's kicker would be a pendulum, not a circular motion.

And it wasn't 1523's either, but it must have been somewhere in the South because I recall a video shot outdoors.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

I'm sorry but I do not quite understand the first method. Is the piston pressurized, and then you guys pull against the pressure causing it to kick out?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Glad to see a working pneumatic prototype. My team has been trying straight up pushing as well as lever arms using pneumatics without compressing them partially and have had no good results yet. They were supposed to try something similar to the first method tonight but seeing as I am not in the same city I don't know the results...

Because of the relatively slow speeds that all the pneumatics extend at I expect to see very few (if any) successful kickers using pneumatics that do not jam a partially compressed cylinder or use surgical tubing as an aid.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Great GP/sharing for this video! Gotta watch the "air" under the ball though. If you get one outside the field (over the railing OR end zone) it'll be a serious penalty. yellow card?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

I share in ttldomination's confusion. It looks like you're using the compressed air in the cylinder as the stored energy. What's missing is the device that compresses the cylinder, releasing it when you want to fire.

Has anyone considered using a small bore cylinder (and thus fast extension) to push a lever near its fulcrum? Or would the small cylinder be unable to provide the "oomph" necessary?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

To figure out roughly how big of a cylinder you need based on how much "oomph" you need, figure out how much energy the ball needs as it begins it's trajectory..then figure out how much energy you can get into a cylinder. You only have 60 psi and max 2" bore to work with.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

My read of the rules is that you only get a yellow card for an intentional shot of the ball outside of the arena

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

The big issue with air cylinders is that a good kick needs to place an object going at ~25-30 MPH in contact with the ball for about 1/50th of a second with said object having enough momentum that it doesn't lose too much speed during contact with the ball.
Pneumatic pistons have to drive the air in front of them out of the cylinder as they accelerate within it. This often restricts their peak velocity, depending on the orifice size of the cylinder's air exit hole. I don't know if it is allowed, but pulling a vacuum on the cylinder ahead of the piston would effectively give a 15LB pressure boost and seriously increase peak piston speed.
The CFPM capacity of the KOP air compressor also seems much too low to allow very many high power shots. Perhaps using a motor to drive a piston back into a sealed cylinder to built up the air pressure inside to the legal max would allow for both more frequent and stronger shots to be taken in a match.
-RRLedford

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

I know which robot you're talking about and remember the video vividly, but also cant remember which team no. It was the most unorthodox shooter, yet effective and accurate of all the '06 bots I saw that year.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Thank you so much for posting this! 1071 is looking also into both designs however are pneumatics were not to successful. We are probably going to end up trying a kicker similar to the 2'nd one shown in your video. Thanks again!

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Nice!

About the first method-
Is the piston fixed to a point on the lever?
If I'm understanding this correctly you're not actually actuating the piston with the valve, but rather using the lever to compress it mechanically. So in effect, it's like a spring (correct?). Our team has been trying out designs including one with a spring-loaded shooter, but we don't yet have a simple reloading mechanism for it (which I see as the main drawback of such a design)..
Hm.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Was it 1523?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91FrxBT10o

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

We tried hitting the ball directly with several different sized pneumatic 3/4, 1, 1 1/8, 2 (4-6 inch strokes) and even a 3" diameter 1" stroke cylinders, which all seemed compatible with the volume of air storage allowed.

Under the best case, the ball had enough energy to roll the distance but not really enough to clear multiple ramps.

On dual acting cylinders we had the exit port wide open to be the best case.

We have a neat kicker concept but the pneumatics just wouldn't support it.

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

looking good

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Got ours going finally....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSpZfM6HJcc

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Finally! When will you have a self arming system?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Here's our schedule:

End of week 2: driving
3: kicking
4: hanging
5: done

so you can infer what you want :)

We're looking at winches now....wonder if it would b epossible to adapt that $60 Harbor Freight one to a CIM?

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Good looks Mr. Forbes.

We've got ours alive and kicking as well.

Camera code is almost done too. :D

Re: Video of Kicker Prototypes
 

Awesome! Can't wait to see your total bot. Make sure you can pick us up!! We need to standardize a lift bar!!
We hope to be driving around that same time as well. Cross my fingers!

Your kicker works great!!!