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-   -   The ultimate game breaker bot. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80202)

Carol 19-01-2010 08:30
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur (Post 901774)
Judges are there to enforce the rules...

Not to pick on Dan, but I want to clarify the roles. Judges are there to select awards (Chairmans, etc.) Referees and Inspectors are there to enforce the rules. Very different roles among the three positions.

Daniel_LaFleur 19-01-2010 08:37
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol (Post 902110)
Not to pick on Dan, but I want to clarify the roles. Judges are there to select awards (Chairmans, etc.) Referees and Inspectors are there to enforce the rules. Very different roles among the three positions.
I stand corrected.

;)

Racer26 19-01-2010 09:26
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 902043)
Multiple aspects of 190's hurdling approach were deemed either illegal or against the intent of a hurdle only a week or so into build season. 1519 is sketchier territory.

I don't think a lot of teams are scared of their robot designs being ruled illegal.
IMO, 190's hurdler, while certainly playing the edge of the rules, I think should have been allowed. As for 1519, I don't see how it was sketchy at all. They had a movable control board, which was the ROBOT, since it had the ROBOT CONTROLLER on it. Fezzik and Speed Racer were simply two MECHANISMS it could be attached to. I always thought this sort of thing was EXACTLY within the spirit of the interchangeable MECHANISMS but have to be within 120lbs all inclusive rule.

In any case, I dont think that theres going to be many (if any) teams trying this tactic, as its very difficult to do it within the rules as written now.

sircedric4 19-01-2010 11:37
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingofl337 (Post 902008)
I think the only question here is, The GDC want's teams to play soccer, more or less, is doing something other then playing soccer going end up becoming illegal via a clarification week 6 or between events? Basically, teams are scared of ending up like 190/1519 in 2008.
Last time I played soccer, which was quite a few years ago granted, I could "trap" the ball with my chest and drop it at my feet to dribble down the field. All I see this approach doing is the same thing.

You obviously can't POSSESS the balls over the bumper (using your hands in soccer) but I see nothing in the rules, now that they clarified them with the update that would disallow passively directing the ball with the top of your robot (your chest) like you do in soccer.

EricH 19-01-2010 12:58
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy (Post 902139)
As for 1519, I don't see how it was sketchy at all. They had a movable control board, which was the ROBOT, since it had the ROBOT CONTROLLER on it. Fezzik and Speed Racer were simply two MECHANISMS it could be attached to. I always thought this sort of thing was EXACTLY within the spirit of the interchangeable MECHANISMS but have to be within 120lbs all inclusive rule.
If you wanted to go by the spirit of the rules, 1519 was not legal. If you wanted to go by the letter of the rules, then they were (unless possibly their bumpers weren't). (To quote a Q&A for that year responding to a question about something else, "That would be a violation of the spirit, but not necessarily the letter, of the rules.") ROBOT that year was poorly defined; something about whatever a team places on the field that has passed inspection, if I recall correctly.

The next year, the definition of ROBOT was changed to include a mobility system, control system, etc. and it hasn't changed.

sircedric4 19-01-2010 13:22
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
And another ruling which makes the "god-bot" perfectly useable just got posted on Q&A.

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=13831


Quote:
We cannot review specific ROBOT designs. However, it is noted that a BALL that is in the process of transiting freely up or down a ramp (i.e. not actively controlled) does not satisfy the definition of POSSESSION and is therefore not being CARRIED. But in addition, if thereafter the BALL comes to rest of top of the ROBOT, no matter how it got there, it would satisfy the conditions required for POSSESSION and CARRYING, and would then be PENALIZED accordingly.
This means that any robot with a ramp being used to divert the ball to either the other zone off of the ball return, or down in front of their own kicker should be perfectly legal. The carrying issue was the only thing keeping it from being viable, as I see it, and that has now been clarified. So we will probably see a couple teams try this strategy.

Chris is me 19-01-2010 15:41
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sircedric4 (Post 902264)
This means that any robot with a ramp being used to divert the ball to either the other zone off of the ball return, or down in front of their own kicker should be perfectly legal. The carrying issue was the only thing keeping it from being viable, as I see it, and that has now been clarified. So we will probably see a couple teams try this strategy.
The only thing keeping it from being legal. I bet the debate of whether or not it is viable to give up a robot in exchange for a return ramp for your own scored balls will rage on.

AHughes94 20-01-2010 11:20
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbhead (Post 899294)
I may have found something that may be too good to be true... but i have not found anything in the rules that would make it illegal.

Immagine a robot... it cant go over the bump... it cant go under. It starts in the middle zone. in autonomous it uses a very basic pnumatic kicker to get those 2 balls just over to its home field... no aiming into the goals... just getting the balls to the right side of the field. very basic.

As soon as tellop starts, it goes in front of its tower, it touches the tower, and then deploys 2 gravity powered guides that physically attach the robot to the sides of the tower, and keep it level. then, using a very basic winch-and hook, it begins climbing. It reaches the top. the top of this robot is shaped in such a manor that the balls that fall off the ball return hit the top of this robot, and the balls are redirected straight back into the goal... a simple servo connected to a bar directs the balls either to the left goal or the right goal.

basicly, a bot that all it does, is that as soon as a goal is scored, it returns the balls straight back into the goal... every one of the 12 balls the other 2 robots place into the goal means that as soon as that ball is placed back on the ball return, 5 seconds later its right back in the goal. if a robot trys to block the goal... this "god bot" simply directs its payload towards the opposite goal. and as an added bonus, you got a minimum of 2 points for hanging.

any thoughts about this?

the only thing that perhaps could be questionable would be the server that redirects the balls to the right goal or left goal... but there are many ways... to use a properly designed lifting mechanism to till the frame one way, and the balls go left, till the frame the other way the ball goes right.
Just want to say that a game breaking robot would be a robot that can do everything and very well, causing the other teams to have to play differently when against that bot.

AHughes94 20-01-2010 11:22
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AHughes94 (Post 903039)
Just want to say that a game breaking robot would be a robot that can do everything and very well, causing the other teams to have to play differently when against that bot.
The robot would have to be able to aim very well, go over or under, and score from several areas on the field.

Jstack14 20-01-2010 21:59
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 901598)
You've obviously read the current manual, but in this case, I think you may want to look at it again. See <R19-B>, which I've highlighted in your post.

There is still debate about what "3 inches inside a mechanism...above the bumper zone" actually means, but I think the common consensus on CD is that that means that the ball can't go more than 3 inches into whatever mechanism/feature is used for the deflection, not that the mechanism must be no more than 3 inches from the frame perimeter. The GDC may wish to look at tweaking the wording of <G46> to match the current version of <R19>.

Thank you for pointing this out, it makes some of my other ideas seem possible for deflecting balls the opposing team kicked. Still the first rule i stated would prevent controling the balls placement activley although you could make a fixed design that would deflect the ball into the desireed direction.

As everyone else has said though it doesn't seem like it is in the spirit of the game, and although i am new to FIRST i understand that loopholes aren't the way to go.

Thanks for pointing out the (potential) error in my understanding of the rule and thanks to the person who posted this to get some good creative ideas going.

Joe Stack
1710

Matthew2c4u 20-01-2010 22:44
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Im gonna summarize what we have so far.
If you build a robot which can effectively climb up to the top of the tower and use a non active mecanism that can deflect balls from the ball return back into our goal is completely legal as long as the ball does not go more than 3 inches into that mecanism.
You could build a robot which could easily change the course of the game.
Now im going to point out the major flaw with this tactic, and the reason that it wont be a winning strategy.
Flaw: When not in the finale period, it is 100% legal to reach up and knock that robot off the tower.
Also, if you do your job too well, it will be difficult to get all the balls back into play on time, if you had more than 5 balls cycling @ once it could be difficult to get them back into game @ sure.
I for one, am planning for both parts of it and i will love to see some of what you guys pull off.
-Matt B

EricH 20-01-2010 22:57
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew2c4u (Post 903571)
Flaw: When not in the finale period, it is 100% legal to reach up and knock that robot off the tower.
If you do damage, and especially if it happens more than once, I'd guess that you get a few yellow cards under <G36>. It's possible, if you're blatant enough (read: stupid enough in how you do it), that you get a penalty and/or red card under <G38-A>, <G37-C-V> notwithstanding.

Worse, if you really didn't plan for it, you're going to get a robot slamming into the top of yours. They can't be penalized, either--YOU knocked them down onto you! If you aren't strong enough to deflect them off of your robot, or agile enough to dodge them as they come down, you could be in a world of hurt.

Yes, it is legal to try to do this. Yes, you'd probably get away with it if you didn't do damage. Yes, you'd draw a penalty if you didn't do it right, and even a red card if you really messed up your try at knocking them off. Yes, you could damage your own robot if you really, really messed up. Do the risks outweigh the benefits? You decide.

And, knowing that teams are going to try this, teams that try this will design to be, shall we say, tough to get off the bar unless they want to come down.

Chris is me 20-01-2010 22:59
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
I've got to say there are much better counters to this strategy, if it ever appears in a game, than to focus on the robot that isn't doing anything. It's a 3 on 2 match, I'm sure you'll figure something out.

Jstack14 21-01-2010 08:49
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew2c4u (Post 903571)
Flaw: When not in the finale period, it is 100% legal to reach up and knock that robot off the tower.
Also, if you do your job too well, it will be difficult to get all the balls back into play on time, if you had more than 5 balls cycling @ once it could be difficult to get them back into game @ sure.
I for one, am planning for both parts of it and i will love to see some of what you guys pull off.
-Matt B
The biggest flaw is it requires your team to score...
and as stated below it will be 2 on 3.

I think the biggest challenge will be getting balls in your goal first, then after this will dominate,

Matthew2c4u 23-01-2010 14:35
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 903582)
If you do damage, and especially if it happens more than once, I'd guess that you get a few yellow cards under <G36>. It's possible, if you're blatant enough (read: stupid enough in how you do it), that you get a penalty and/or red card under <G38-A>, <G37-C-V> notwithstanding.

Worse, if you really didn't plan for it, you're going to get a robot slamming into the top of yours. They can't be penalized, either--YOU knocked them down onto you! If you aren't strong enough to deflect them off of your robot, or agile enough to dodge them as they come down, you could be in a world of hurt.

Yes, it is legal to try to do this. Yes, you'd probably get away with it if you didn't do damage. Yes, you'd draw a penalty if you didn't do it right, and even a red card if you really messed up your try at knocking them off. Yes, you could damage your own robot if you really, really messed up. Do the risks outweigh the benefits? You decide.

And, knowing that teams are going to try this, teams that try this will design to be, shall we say, tough to get off the bar unless they want to come down.
I think Team Update 4 shows us the tolerance for that strategy.
I think that attacking the climbing robot is going to be given alot of leeway, but i dont know how it will be called honestly.
Most likely overpowering that team will be possible, but someone who does this well will be worth the loss of an active robot.
<G-37 C V> offers alot of blatent protection, but you definitly need to be aware of what your doing.

cooldude8181 23-01-2010 15:32
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
This is an amazing idea, and i hope someone will try it so I can see it in action.

IdaNeStr3088 23-01-2010 15:50
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Great Idea!!
I was thinking about the same idea my self during thr kick-off. I wanted to do a "roof" to the robot that will return balls to the direction you want to and also will help other robots to climb on you so they will be able to get to the tower. Now we are tring to develop this system so we will be able to use t if we want to but we are not counting only on this, we are also conting on the other systems we want to develpo - this will be a system for backup.

-Idan KOB #3088::safety::

EricH 23-01-2010 18:13
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew2c4u (Post 905305)
I think Team Update 4 shows us the tolerance for that strategy.
I think that attacking the climbing robot is going to be given alot of leeway, but i dont know how it will be called honestly.
Most likely overpowering that team will be possible, but someone who does this well will be worth the loss of an active robot.
<G-37 C V> offers alot of blatent protection, but you definitly need to be aware of what your doing.
Exactly. It's legal, unless and until you deliver damage. Once you start damaging them, you're pretty much gone.

It's worth it to defend them, as long as you aren't totally stupid about doing it.

ThirteenOfTwo 25-01-2010 00:57
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Keep in mind that this isn't going to be able to score on its own, at least not with a passive mechanism. Unless, of course, you can build a ramp that can turn a ball around and imbue it with enough momentum to go 22 feet diagonally and then up 8 inches on the ramp in front of the goal. So, if you're just passing to your front field bot, you give away any shot at scoring balls that they score, while they will likely return at least a few of the ones that you try to (by kicking balls back to midfield). Over time, this becomes less effective. Also, you have a problem with the poles being out of the way.

kborer22 25-01-2010 11:33
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
people keep referring this a "loophole" strategy and saying that this is not how the game is "intended" to be played; i personally think this is where innovation and thinking outside the box can take really take flight. Not only are you thinking about different types robots but also different ways to approach this difficult engineering problem. IF FIRST wanted everyone to build kicking (or robots of similar type) then they would have said so, that's the beauty of this program, leaving the door open for anything that is within the rules, which in this particular case have been given the go-ahead by FIRST/GDC.

Tom Bottiglieri 25-01-2010 18:46
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
If I had come up with a chokehold strategy, I wouldn't talk about it on Chief Delphi.

That's just me though. :cool:

Hagar Topeka 1 25-01-2010 23:21
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
:confused: Here's a question: What if you designed the gripper(s) on your "god-bot" to include a rotating mechanism such that the robot was capable of swinging itself on the tower? Is that use of an "active mechanism" if you intentionally use it to provide momentum to the falling balls?

:confused: Will you be penalized if your robot, attempting to climb, initiates some accidental falling action, its erratic swinging then shooting a ball and scoring you a point?

:confused: In addition, no one has commented on an earlier post which questioned the appropriate definition of "above the bumper zone," posing the question, "what if you flip your robot and have a mechanism on the bottom?"

RoboticBohemian 26-01-2010 00:44
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
That was one of the ideas put on our brainstorming board. We used a piece of Lexan and redirected the ball flawlessly into the goal. One of our mentors however came in and mentioned a rule stating that it isn't illegal but if there is any "damage" to the tower it is a penalty on you. And also keep in mind that if you are up there before finale, you are open game to get hammered. And we all know that if there is someone up there and within reach of ramming, they will get hit...hard.

EricH 26-01-2010 01:53
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagar Topeka 1 (Post 906953)
:confused: Here's a question: What if you designed the gripper(s) on your "god-bot" to include a rotating mechanism such that the robot was capable of swinging itself on the tower? Is that use of an "active mechanism" if you intentionally use it to provide momentum to the falling balls?
Technically... the contacting part is not in motion relative to the robot, so it wouldn't be illegal.

Practically... Your entire robot is intentionally an active mechanism, so if I was your friendly neighborhood ref, I'd call it. Not to mention calling you for field damage if the tower went over.

Quote:
:confused: Will you be penalized if your robot, attempting to climb, initiates some accidental falling action, its erratic swinging then shooting a ball and scoring you a point?
You're going up, slip/swing, and somehow hit a ball into a goal. Not intentional, so no penalty. Now, if you did that every single match, I'd start calling it intentional. At that point, the penalty would depend on exactly how you did it whether it was a penalty or a card.

Quote:
:confused: In addition, no one has commented on an earlier post which questioned the appropriate definition of "above the bumper zone," posing the question, "what if you flip your robot and have a mechanism on the bottom?"
If you flip your robot and have your standard kicker mechanism do the hitting, I'd start calling it. Below the bumper zone? Yes, before the match. If the bumper zone is defined from the active bottom of the robot on a flat surface, that's definitely out; if it's defined in initial configuration and remains the same way the entire match, it depends. That's a Q&A one, but I think you'd get the same result as if a soccer player began running on his hands and using his feet to hold the ball above his head.

Durza16 26-01-2010 09:06
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
As long as the balls dont get stuck on top of your bot I don't see how this couldn't be legal...

Norman J 26-01-2010 11:23
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
My team also came up with this, we call it the "ski jump" idea. Has anyone put something like this on Q and A yet?

hipsterjr 13-03-2010 17:55
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
469 That's all I have to say.

sparrowkc 13-03-2010 18:01
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipsterjr (Post 936412)
469 That's all I have to say.
Yes, I was just thinking about digging this thread back up.

Well then, let's get to it!

I haven't found any video or pictures of the robot-- do they get an appreciable number of balls in themselves, or do they rely on a great teammate like the thunderchickens to clean each one up?

1902_Battery_SGT 13-03-2010 18:03
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Yes we need photo and video of this robot in all of its awesomeness.

ttldomination 13-03-2010 18:03
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparrowkc (Post 936414)
Yes, I was just thinking about digging this thread back up.

Well then, let's get to it!

I haven't found any video or pictures of the robot-- do they get an appreciable number of balls in themselves, or do they rely on a great teammate like the thunderchickens to clean each one up?
When the ball return got jammed, they unhooked and then proceeded to kick in a couple of goals. They can hold their own, but with a good kicker, they definitely spell a championship alliance to me.

BHS_STopping 13-03-2010 18:04
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparrowkc (Post 936414)
Yes, I was just thinking about digging this thread back up.

Well then, let's get to it!

I haven't found any video or pictures of the robot-- do they get an appreciable number of balls in themselves, or do they rely on a great teammate like the thunderchickens to clean each one up?
On their own, 469 is pretty formidable. In auto they pop a few balls out of midfield and then maneuver into position, going into the tunnel while their ball handler unfolds above them. However, they have a good kicker and a good drive base, and would surely be an offensive threat if for some reason they couldn't recycle balls.

Edit: For those of you who were wondering, I don't have a picture of 469, but I do have a crude MSPaint drawing of what their robot does. Hope it clarifies things!

http://img705.imageshack.us/i/469i.png/

JGurnow 14-03-2010 00:11
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
It is also worth mentioning that 469 actually latched onto the tower from underneath the tunnel. They can choose which side to go to as well. On a clear field with no obstacles or uncirculated balls 469 can score probably 70-80% of their returns. They do rely on a teammate to get the cycle going, but with the right strategy and robots they can easily cycle balls as fast as the human players can return them. I think the time taken to score a single ball after getting the cycle going is about a ball every 4-5 seconds. Still, a game breaker robot is limited by the trident player, you need to give the ball the right speed repeatedly and do it quickly as well.

Peter Johnson 14-03-2010 00:20
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Video of the 217, 469, 2960 26 point match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJh_tb9Ox6A

leftylink 14-03-2010 04:11
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Hey guys,

So I did some digging on youtube, and there are a few videos on 469. They're kinda low quality, but you take what you can get...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJh_tb9Ox6A - Semis #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXTSVZJcaYc - Finals #1

sparrowkc 14-03-2010 04:38
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftylink (Post 936692)
Hey guys,

So I did some digging on youtube, and there are a few videos on 469. They're kinda low quality, but you take what you can get...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJh_tb9Ox6A - Semis #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXTSVZJcaYc - Finals #1

I find that my initial feelings of disgust towards a gamebreaker have been replaced by awe and amazement. That is beautiful.

Radical Pi 14-03-2010 16:18
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
I'd love to play against that bot if just for the huge number of Qualification point's I'd get from them :P

Adam Freeman 14-03-2010 16:23
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Pi (Post 936875)
I'd love to play against that bot if just for the huge number of Qualification point's I'd get from them :P
Unfortunately, this type of robot usually does not produce a large amount of qualifing points since it is unlikely to be paired with dominant robot such as 217 at a standard regional/district during qualifing matches.

Not saying it can't happen, just that it is unlikely. This design is best suited for eliminations.

JGurnow 14-03-2010 16:31
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Funny thing is that in qualifying, they could just play the middle zone and score and be quite successful. In a match where they got blocked they played mid-zone and scored a healthy 5 points.

They don't need a dominant robot to get a good score, there highest was I believe 13 in qualifying. As long as their alliance had a robot that could push balls into the goal 2-3 times in the match, they would win. They had a match where they had only a single ball cycling and scored 6 points that way.

jspatz1 14-03-2010 16:48
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Looks like they actually used the back sloped side of the bump to gain horizontal speed and eliminate most of the bouncing. Am I seeing that right?

Radical Pi 15-03-2010 00:19
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Yeah that's what I saw too. The bump is used as an extension of the ramp. No idea how they can line that up so well for direct goals

Thuperscout 15-03-2010 00:32
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
lol, thanks someone for already saying it, if you wanna be a God bot just be 469, screw the hanging hehe

LegendOfSteve 15-03-2010 10:05
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
I'm still in awe over 469. Amazingly simplistic design, yet SO EFFECTIVE.

sashboy226 15-03-2010 10:29
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparrowkc (Post 936697)
I find that my initial feelings of disgust towards a gamebreaker have been replaced by awe and amazement. That is beautiful.
You didnt fear the oncoming threat of the 217 and 469 alliance all through elims at Cass Tech....unfortunately we didnt make it to finals, but still.

pfreivald 15-03-2010 10:55
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
That's an incredible robot. It looks like to defend against it you must:

A. Block the tunnel in autonomous, just long enough to get any balls scored out of the ball return. (And incidentally, do they have a way to stop themselves from going over the center line and incurring a penalty if they glance off of an opposing robot during autonomous?)

B. Clear their zone of balls very, very quickly. (This will require a good defensive bot with the ability to kick balls, preferably two zones).

If you can manage those two things, and then play relatively typical ball denial in the middle zone for the rest of the game, you should be able to pull off a win.

If you can't...

bobrenjc93 30-03-2010 17:36
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Just curious, has any robot tried pushing 469 out from the other side?

Wildcat 30-03-2010 17:54
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobrenjc93 (Post 945867)
Just curious, has any robot tried pushing 469 out from the other side?
i guarentee now that you said that teams are gonna be trying to do this this weekend @ mich. state championship if it hasnt been tried

Josh Fox 30-03-2010 18:00
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcat (Post 945872)
i guarentee now that you said that teams are gonna be trying to do this this weekend @ mich. state championship if it hasnt been tried
I'm fairly certain it's been established that pushing them has been deemed near impossible once they're locked in the tunnel.

pfreivald 30-03-2010 18:02
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobrenjc93 (Post 945867)
Just curious, has any robot tried pushing 469 out from the other side?
We have videos of teams trying this to no avail. They don't just drive under, they lock themselves under. (Brilliant, I say!)

bobrenjc93 30-03-2010 18:20
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald (Post 945879)
We have videos of teams trying this to no avail. They don't just drive under, they lock themselves under. (Brilliant, I say!)
Eh? When you say "locking", do you mean an actual locking mechanism, or just the locking produced by the friction force? From the videos I've watched, it looks as if all 469 does is drive under the tower and raise their arm. I noticed that most teams try ramming them from the middle zone. My idea is to have a robot push from the defensive zone. Here is an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf4SRK7Whm8 (Skip to 1:25 if you don't want to watch the whole thing)

It seems to me that with good traction wheels (like the ones 148 and 217 use) and a high gear ratio, a robot should be able to push 469 out from under the tunnel.

sashboy226 30-03-2010 19:26
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
They lock underneath the tower, I cant explain it because I dont completely understand it, but they do, I watched it happen a few times out of curiosity.

hektormagee 30-03-2010 19:47
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbhead (Post 899294)
I may have found something that may be too good to be true... but i have not found anything in the rules that would make it illegal.

Immagine a robot... it cant go over the bump... it cant go under. It starts in the middle zone. in autonomous it uses a very basic pnumatic kicker to get those 2 balls just over to its home field... no aiming into the goals... just getting the balls to the right side of the field. very basic.

As soon as tellop starts, it goes in front of its tower, it touches the tower, and then deploys 2 gravity powered guides that physically attach the robot to the sides of the tower, and keep it level. then, using a very basic winch-and hook, it begins climbing. It reaches the top. the top of this robot is shaped in such a manor that the balls that fall off the ball return hit the top of this robot, and the balls are redirected straight back into the goal... a simple servo connected to a bar directs the balls either to the left goal or the right goal.

basicly, a bot that all it does, is that as soon as a goal is scored, it returns the balls straight back into the goal... every one of the 12 balls the other 2 robots place into the goal means that as soon as that ball is placed back on the ball return, 5 seconds later its right back in the goal. if a robot trys to block the goal... this "god bot" simply directs its payload towards the opposite goal. and as an added bonus, you got a minimum of 2 points for hanging.

any thoughts about this?

the only thing that perhaps could be questionable would be the server that redirects the balls to the right goal or left goal... but there are many ways... to use a properly designed lifting mechanism to till the frame one way, and the balls go left, till the frame the other way the ball goes right.
469 does exactly this, minus the hanging.

Alan Anderson 30-03-2010 21:21
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobrenjc93 (Post 945888)
Eh? When you say "locking", do you mean an actual locking mechanism, or just the locking produced by the friction force? From the videos I've watched, it looks as if all 469 does is drive under the tower and raise their arm.
They also raise a piece inside the tunnel. This wedges the robot firmly in place. It braces against the pipe across the tunnel entrance.

Short of literally breaking the tower, nobody is pushing that robot out of there.

eyu100 30-03-2010 23:50
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 945993)
They also raise a piece inside the tunnel. This wedges the robot firmly in place. It braces against the pipe across the tunnel entrance.

Short of literally breaking the tower, nobody is pushing that robot out of there.
Well, breaking their mechanism would also do it...

Daniel_LaFleur 31-03-2010 08:36
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hektormagee (Post 945942)
469 does exactly this, minus the hanging.
Look at the date of his post (01-14-2010, 08:27 PM). A month and a half before the 1st regional and a week after kickoff ;)

Long before 469 built their robot.

MCahoon 31-03-2010 09:14
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1075guy (Post 899813)
seems to me that you could probably get the deflector configured in such a way that the energy of the ball coming down the return is enough to push it forward and hit the angled part of the hump, which, if positioned right, could give it the required energy to go directly into the goal. now sure, a defensive bot could try to get in the way, but if you're able to change the direction the ball goes, then what can they do? the ball is smaller and faster than a 120lb robot.
Post #46 on 1-15. 469's design seems to implement virtually every significant feature as discussed in the two threads which addressed this idea, with the addition of driving under the platform rather than hanging, which allows them to disengage and play (though at the cost of the 2 hanging points). Major props to their designers.

Racer26 31-03-2010 09:46
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
I certainly thought it was possible and within the rules to do it. 469 did. Kudos.

theprgramerdude 31-03-2010 10:01
Re: The ultimate game breaker bot.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyu100 (Post 946101)
Well, breaking their mechanism would also do it...
Or climbing on them.


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