Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I was wondering what the consensus was on building a robot that could play "goalie" or defense.. I think a crab drive system would work since all goalies do is move side to side.

But is it worth building a defensive robot this year?

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I think that a defense robot would bring a asset to an alliance. like imagine if a robot was really good at defense, and had a really good kicker, as in it could kick balls from one end to the other. This would allow the defense bot to play goalie all day, and if it has the opportunity to steal a ball, it could kick it away to its scoring zone, where its alliance partners would take over. its a very good idea. the only way the goalie bot would fail is if two robots ganged up and scored on the two goals alternately, but that would take another robot from another section of the field. It's worth a lot of consideration. Strategy will be key in this game.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Defense wins Championships.

There are better ways to prevent scoring in this game than by strafing between the opponent's two goals.

That's all I'd like to say for now.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Very true, correct on both things...
But hmmmm... is that a strategy hint from Team 2791 or 1714??

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

It's a strategy hint for matches I'll be involved in. So.... even I don't know yet o.0 I guess both?

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

And perhaps you could use powerful motors with superior torque to pin the opponent.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Pinning for any significant amount of time (More than 5 seconds) is forbidden--see Section 7 <G39>.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

But taking them 'for a ride' across the bumps (especially if they cannot traverse them back on their own) isn't forbidden ;)

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I don't think you build a 'defensive robot'. I think you build an offensive robot that can play defense if necessary (due to breakdown in scoring mechanism, poor scoring ability, or specific match stratedgy calls for it).

I think the role of defense will be very similar to that in 2007. In 2007 there were, in my mind, two ways to play defense. The first was a 'man to man' approach, where the defender would harass and push the opponent all around the field (ie, push them when they are picking up a tube, moving towards the rack, trying to score). The second was a 'screening defense'. In this approach, the defender would position themselves inbetween the rack and the opponents, trying to screen the scoring robots from getting into the rack. Each had its strengths and weaknesses.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I honestly don't see defense bots having a significant role in the gameplay.

Defense =\= goal-tending. If I were a defense-bot, I'd go after opponent bot instead of staying in front of the goal.

P.S. Don't forget the scoring algorithm for this year.
For those who follow NHL hockey, Washington Capitals/Team Russia should be the model to follow.

The best defense is when I have the puck and you don't.

-Pie Man

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I'm kind of curious how refs are going to rule on that sort of thing if you end up tipping or damaging a robot that was never designed to traverse the bumps. Especially if you end up damaging a robot. I know the whole "Build robust" thing, but there's only so much some of the rookies are going to do there.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I preferred the man to two man approach. This is where you have your robot alternate between two robots so neither can really score. This is the most effective form of defense.(in my opinion) It frees up your alliance partners to play 2 vs 1. I have never seen a game that made defense worse then offense. It is just as hard to build a good defense robot as a good offense robot. Especially in this game. Speaking from a team that became an alliance captain without scoring but a handful rings in 2007, defense can be very effective if played right. It just requires a good robot, good driver, and good strategy. Sounds alot like offense, doesn't it?

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I think G38 <A> will apply as if this happens on a regular basis i think it can easily be called aggressive and intentional. As well as G37 <B> which says Incidental contact is generally allowed... So If you are over aggressive and push them over a ramp you may find your self in some serious trouble.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

5 seconds may still be quite significant as this is only a 2 minute game. If you can pin the opponent and kick the balls away from your goal before he recovers?

Well, actually it is kind of a nonsense idea. If you get an ultra high score, like 50 x 0, it would mean a tie, so the ideal would to get a 50-49 score, wich would mean 148 x 99, or a victory and lots of points.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Being good at every aspect of the game? :rolleyes:

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Defense bots are always good to have on your alliance. Especially in this game.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Instead of taking them for a ride across the bumps, how about parking
them on top of a bump. Done gently, without robot or field damage,
how is this overly aggressive? The team could just come out and fetch
their robot after the match was over with no harm done.

Eugene

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I have to agree with that. Puppy guarding isn't really going to get very far in my opinion. Especially since you'll only have one robot there. If two go into that zone, then it's almost pointless. Also, I can't help but think that teams who start to build these goalie-bots would end of losing speed or ball maneuverability or something. They could be tanks, but tanks are very slow.

However, I still feel that defense is key to this game. But more like the 09 defense. Not necessarily a best defense is a good offense approach, but the best defense is to keep them moving. Robots are going to have to move a lot depending on where the balls are and what their strategy is. If a team can keep a robot occupied by either screening like mentioned before or just controlling the balls so the others follow you, or even with some sort of pinning or something, that would be the most effective defense.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

It would depend how your refs define pinning. The rules claim it's if a robot is being pushed against a wall or part of the field. So if you're pushing a robot up the ramp, they may count that as pinning, no matter how gentle.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

So, you do it in under 5 seconds.

Eugene

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I think you are looking at the predicament you ran into last year, there was good defensive robots, however, when you can add a offensive robot that an play mediocre defense, it gives you so many more strategy options.

And the best Defense will be keeping balls in a place you can score from, which isnt the defensive side if the court.

A FIRST adage:
You can make an Offensive robot play defense more effectively, than you can make a Defensive robot play offense.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

lol that would be a very amusing play to watch. I would hate to be the one on top but still would have to give kudos to a well played and executed strategy.

i would say even going up a ramp the one getting pushed can try to turn and get out of the way unless they are against a wall or tower i dont think they will call pinning.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

1. protect the goals, 2. send balls to other endzone.

a robot dedicated to that would be fantastic.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Truthfully, that probably would depend on if the damage was purposeful or not. I'm not, nor would I ever, advocating damaging another robot (in fact, I talk to my drivers about avoiding damage), but on the other hand there is a level of robot-to-robot and robot-to-field interaction that is to be expected.

Build it robust, and expect interaction. Then go out and have fun. :D

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I have one thing to say for robustness. Build it so you can drop it sideways from 2 feet off the ground. If you can't do that, it's not truly robust. Just remember, any given year tipping is possible. Plan for it and expect it. This holds especially true for years that involve lifting/ramps like this one. I always avoid doing anything that will specifically hurt their robot. However, I've seen some robots that are built flimsy with the assumption that other teams will be careful to not break them. That's not a safe bet. I won't try to hurt you, but I won't try not to. I'm just going to tell the driver to play the game as it was meant to be played.

Note: I'm not a strategy person as usual. 1766 may or may not be using this ideology, however I will bet some team will. Plan for someone to play this way that way they won't have to make the tough call.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

According to my teams analysis a good defensive bot is pretty much the same as a offensive bot

the D-Bot wanted abilities

• Able to gather balls quickly
• Shoot balls over hump
• Fast movement to gather balls quicker than opponent

The O-Bot wanted abilities

• Able to gather balls quickly
• Accurate ball shooter
• Fast movement to gather balls quicker than opponent

Practically the same bot, except how the shooter works.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

So whay not design a bot that can shoot with accuracy and range?

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

LOL, at the end of the match how would you move the robot off the bump without getting a yellow card?

I saw a great football player on Sunday, I believe he was the main reason his team pulled off the only upset over the weekend. His name is Durelle Revis. He is the best cornerback in the NFL hands down. He is capable of covering even the most explosive players on the opposing team. To be successful in this year's game as a defensive robot. Your going to have to do three things flawlessly. Your goal is to be the Durelle Revis of FRC.

+ Market your robot to other teams as a very strong "shut down" defender.

+ Walk the walk, Play defense on teams in their offensive zone, play goalie, "intercept" balls and kick them back to your offensive partners, etc. etc.

All of these things must be committed to before the qualifying rounds begin. You will not get many seeding points. but if you can make your point to other teams that your a defensive Juggernaut, (and back it up on the field, on tape, and on scouting sheets) then I wouldn't be surprised to find your robot in the finals at a regional/district event.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

The game is too short for defence, we will be able to neutralize any robot that wants to play goalkeeper. I feel kicking the soccer ball is key to the match AND TEAM 2185 is developing a kicker that will make David Beckam look like a chump.
I think that that people that are not familar with the game of soccer should get a few DVD's on soccer and watch different matches so they could better understand how to play the game.
Team 2185 will be coming with an attack bot!

wendells
School Soccer Coach

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Who said that defense had to be playing 'goalkeeper'?

Most defense is played by having great middies.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

My thoughts exactly. It's tough to score when you never have the ball.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

agreed you need a fast agile and powerful middie to act as the arbiter of the match. Only giving your opponent the balls you want them to have to increase your seeding points.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Looks like ChiefDelphi has become BigSoccer.

Overloading the scoring zone with the balls is the simplest idea to win by scoring big.

Each elimination match will be won/lost in midfield, as the balls are returned the ability to get the balls into your scoring area reliably will be key.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

True, but there is no off sides in this game.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

The best (only?) place for a defense robot in this game is in your opponent's zone. Their job will be to get the ball out of the zone and slow down the offense bot(s) - not block shots. A robot playing defense anywhere else is just chasing other robots around and not moving balls toward its scoring zone.

I think the key to the game will be to minimize the total tact time between when you choose to go after a ball and when you have moved it toward the goal. This means a quick chassis, wide "ball magnet", ability to turn downfield without loosing control of the ball, and a quick-cycle kicker with repeatable accuracy that will clear at least one bump all the time (for a score hopefully), and not kick it so hard that it bounces out of the goal. Adjustable kick force will be helpful.

Perhaps more than ever, a good offense bot can handle the necessary defense, but not the other way around.

My $.02

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I have a very strong opinion on defensive robots, which I've developed from my time in FIRST in different levels and capacities.

Personally, I would never "build" a robot to play defense. I've found that it's far too risky, because should you be paired with two other defensive robots then you no longer have the ability to score any points. (arguably) More often than not, a capable offensive robot in any game has been able to play effective defense, whether this be through interference, pinning, or some other game specific strategy.

And also, looking at this game, there's no real defensive strategies that require any specialized robot features, with the exception of a strong drive base and capable "kicker" and both of these belong on a good offensive robot in my opinion. When I think of a good defensive robot this year, I think of a machine that plays the role of an on-field ball returner so to say. This machine would go up against your opponents and starve them of their ball supply while also feeding yours. I really don't think playing goalie will be an effective way of defending this year, because once you block one goal an opponent could just use the other to score on.

Finally, I think a lot of alliances will find themselves playing their best defender in the midfield. I can foresee a lot of fighting over the balls coming from the ball return.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Here is my 2 cents on the game in general (and yes I will touch on the defensive robot).

Personally I would love to see an alliance that is composed of 1 defensive robot, 1 hybrid robot (meaning it can play the middle and offensive zone) and 1 offensive robot.

Purpose of each robot and what they will be doing.

Offensive Robot - This is a strictly scoring robot. There entire strategy is about putting points on the board and putting them up fast. They never leave the offensive zone unless they have to in order to collect balls.

Hybrid Robot - This robot plays both the striker (offensive) and mid position. The primary roll of this robot is to score, but when there are few balls in the offensive zone, it is this robots responsibility to move the balls in the mid zone into the offensive area.

Defensive - This robot is all about getting balls out of the offensive zone, and being a pure power house. They will be able to "kick" the ball at least to the mid zone, and good ones will be able to get it into their offensive zone so that their alliance partners never need to come out to collect balls.

As for the drive system I would see a defensive robot have either crab or mecanum. I believe that defense this year isn't about shoving people around and what not, its simply getting in their way, knocking the ball away from them, and keeping balls out of your defensive zone, and being able to move around freely and not being trapped yourself.



Good luck to all, and remember this is just what I think will happen.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

So to finally get around to responding to the replies to my post...

I had a specific reason for being concerned about pushing bots up the BUMP. I think you'd have two things to worry about:
1. A non bump bot is not going to have the ground clearance to make it over or up the bump. You're risking damaging the field and bot by shoving transmissions and whatnot over the corner of the bump.
2. The BUMP is rather closer to being a wall than a floor. I haven't gotten to try it yet, but I'm worried about pushing someone sideways into the bump. If their wheels stick at the corner, the pushing bot could end up putting a significant side load on wheels that might not be designed for it.

So yeah. Hurrah for shoving people around in new and interesting fashions, but be careful doing so.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Just getting the balls away from opponents is the best defense. Find all the loose balls and push them closer to your zone. The more your opponent has to "fight" for a ball, the harder it will be for them to make a score. This is why the midzone is critical, and how the robots "tip-off" for the incoming balls is going to make a huge difference.

Also, just thinking about how many scratches and scrapes the bumps are going to get makes my inner field personal weep ;;

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

Looking at G26 I would say each robot should be designed so it will not damage a field element even if it has no intentions of going over the ramp. I don't see it being the pushers fault.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I hope CD never stoops that low. We are much more gracious here.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

The most important part of a robot design on defense is a drive train. That has typically been true in other years such as 06' and 07' and this year could be very similar. Without a fast enough or strong enough bot you will not be able to control an opponent or position, but at the same time you don't have to necessarily compromise your offensive power for defensive capabilities.

With a solid drive train, a decent kicker (with average range and accuracy) and height to block angled kicks I can't see robots being a bad fit for defense. The more you improve on these factors the better you'll be at offense and defense and the more valuable your bot will be.

In the end, defense is mostly reliant on driver ability and strategy. Give a solid base to a good driver and he can cause an offensive player a lot of trouble.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

I just hope teams don't take a que from 2007 and interpret defense as permission to be hockey goons and start wrecking people.
I'm sure I'll see it at lest once in the early weeks where a team will knock foolishly attack a robot in the endgame and knock them off the bar because we know how diligently teams read and follow the rules in the manual.

Re: Defense robots for 2010 game..
 

A good defensive robot would be one with a solid drive platform with alot of torque, swerve or tank drives serve this purpose nicely, and all it has to do is successfully muscle around one other robot. This would force another robot to enter the zone to score which leaves either their defence or the mid field zones open, causing a flurry of scoring by your alliance. We are also missing a vital point here, a defensive robot would be very useful to powerhouse teams focusing on offence in the elims, therefore it doesnt matter if they are an alliance captain or not, assuming they are good at what they do. One idea would be for a team to build a defensive robot that had the capability to quickly lift both its alliance partners in the FINALE; 8 points would definately outscore what most offensive robots could do in 20 seconds.:cool: